Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Yeah cool the Leanasidehe buff likely got those people up to 4 expression + 2 stat + 2 buff = around 8 dice pool, average 2-3 success DC8 pretty legendary for a mortal. Molly can hit a 12 dice pool with 8-4DC average success 6. So the Leanansidhe best agents that put years into creating the best possible works of their life, is Molly's starting base level result, she can do in an afternoon.
Objection: Speculation.
You have no way of knowing or tellimg just how potent Lea's buffs were.

It could be a 1 dice bonus.
It could be turning every dice in their pool into an autosuccess, or literally just saying you succeed a la the Ex2 spirit charm Divine Subordination of (Ability).
We dont know and cant say, just that she did something for them that they considered worth their while.

So making up a hypothetical and saying Molly is better than that is actively misleading.
 
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Ome of these things is not like the others.
Major to General involves jumping multiple levels: Lt Col, Col, Brigadier General, Major-General, Lt General, General.
You went from O-4 to O-9.

Sure thats accurate?

Major was a military rank in the 4 dots, General is a military rank in the 5 dots on the Background I was using. So I guess blame the background writer or the system.

If you generalize though...
Rank 1: Minor Rank
Rank 2: Low Rank
Rank 3: Medium Rank
Rank 4: High Rank
Rank 5: Command Staff

So in this context VEE can +1 somebodys rank perhaps.

Additionally for more things VEE can do, 2 Wishes could take somebody of above average intelligence and elevate them to Einstein/Von Neumann if Intelligence 5 is their level in this quest. Or give them sensory augmentations through Perception or the Acute Senses Merit. But sensory augmentations pale in comparison to things like wealth, status, magical training, etc.
 
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There is an inherent bias there, you only see those on which that doesn't work because the ones which do listen are invisible, I can guarantee you that the simple fact of knowing something is dangerous is extremely helpful, you just never see it, because, once again, only the exceptions are seen.

If we make a primer on the laws, more people will follow them than before, and those that it won't stop would have almost certainly done it anyway, so it is worth it.
Unless it immediately backfired because the white court/red court/Denarians/one of the other asshole groups immediately poisons the well with bullshit in the name of protecting supernatural secrecy.

To few people relative to the whole problem, too much risk of failure due to a complete lack of control or information on the space we'd be operating in.

High effort, high risk, low relative reward plans are the definition of bad ideas regardless of how feel good they sound.

It's better to do it right the first time rather than making a mess we'll have to clean up before needing to do it properly anyway.
 
Objection: Speculation.
You have no way of knowing or tellimg just how potent Lea's buffs were.

It could be a 1 dice bonus.
It could be turning every dice in their pool into an autosuccess, or literally just saying you succeed a la the Ex2 spirit charm Divine Subordination of (Ability).
We dont know and cant say, just that she did something for them that they considered worth their while.

So making up a hypothetical and saying Molly is better than that is actively misleading.
We in fact do know it can't have been that much because those artist might have been famous in their time but not legendary. Legendary 5+ success is the William Shakespeare, Mozart, leonardo da vinci. A level of skill, and ablity that enters into legend that survives the person death. If your forgotten in a century or two it was not legendary.
 
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I am once again reminded of 2e Sidereal ruleslawyer cheese using Duck Fate to remotely prevent other people's death.

"That guy is one of my Backgrounds(Allies), killing him would lower one of my traits, therefore killing him harms me, Duck Fate can be used to dodge any sort of harmful effect, therefore I can use Duck Fate to prevent him from dying."
GM: "He's on another continent and you have no way of knowing what's happening to him."
Cheese: "Duck Fate explicitly says it can be used to defend against unexpected attacks." :D

A lot of Exalted seems to have this kind of silly problem.
That doesn't seem like cheese to me. That's the charms working properly.
 
1) Just sharing the laws alone isn't an effective measure for curtailing behaviors even if it does potentially help in some of the most casual cases
Sharing the laws, if done correctly, wouldn't be "hey guys, these are the super powers you have, but don't use in this ways". It would be "so, here's how you give yourself schizophrenia and roll for SAN loss". Only with far better wording and good visual aids.
In my view a TikTok of the laws is very nearly a pointless feel good distraction.
If my understanding is correct, tiktok, where videos are limited by time, is a very different beast from youtube.

The method you propose runs into an issue of how there is evidence that there are a ton of magical talents who don't come from anywhere connected to magical community, who are completely on their own until and unless found, and who develop and experiment with magic on their own. Which often leads them to either breaking the laws, or becoming fae / demon / fomori slaves.
 
We in fact do know it can't have been that much recuse those artist might have been famous in their time but not legendary. Legendary 5+ success is the William Shakespeare, Mozart, leonardo da vinci. A level of skill, and ablity that enters into legend that survives the person death. If your forgotten in a century or two it was not legendary.
Worth noting that it probably wasn't the same her entire career, and that as fey grow stronger they become more restricted in how they're allowed to interact with mortals.

We see them in a relatively free state because almost everyone we know is hip deep in their business, but Leansidhe almost certainly can't just hang out in Starbucks for starving artists to prey on anymore.
 
I mean, a radical solution would be to look at our social security number and ask the crown to list all social security numbers who belong to magically gifted people. Then use cyberdevils for mass surveillance.
 
The White God, Heaven, his angels and archangels are not a supernatural nationstate as we use the term.
They are simply so overpoweringly powerful as to be off the scale of comparison. Ditto Lucy's Hell.
Calling Heaven, or Lucifer's Hell for that matter, a supernatural nationstate in the same breath as Winter and Summer and the Red Court would be like comparing stars and meteors because they are both celestial bodies.
It has a leader, a hierarchy, internal laws, it negotiates with the other powers as a whole... To me they look a lot like a nation. You don't deny the status of a nation-state just because it's so strong compared to others, it's ridiculous.

And I wasn't comparing anyone, just saying that Winter can't be the most powerful in all Creation (as you proclaimed) if he has others stronger than them (which you seem to agree with by this post).

They certainly arent signatories to the Unseelie Accords.

The post you made and the one I was responding to didn't say anything about the Accords, rather a ranking referring to the power of supernatural nations in all of Creation.

As for the depths of the NeverNever, you are asking me to disprove a negative.
Jim Butcher has not said there is anything on the order of the Mothers in the NeverNever; even peers of the Queens are hardly thick on the ground.

If you have a citation otherwise, I would be glad to see it.
I'm not asking you to prove anything, just that you don't make statements like the one you make, as it might mislead people as it has an absolute tone, if you had said "Winter is the most powerful supernatural nation that has the most freedom to interact with the Creation" I wouldn't say anything.

Your earlier line had a very "Winter is all-powerful, everyone else is bugs, only by the grace of kind Mab are we alive" tone along with the many uplifting posts you made about Mab and Winter, it was a little irritating so I made this comment .

On the matter of social combat the issue is that you cannot change deep things about a person's beliefs fast. Mab could absolutely sit down with a random person three hours a day, every day for a month and make them into putty in her hands, but now she has just wasted a hundred hours of her finite and very useful time. This kind of conditioning also gets less effective when it is less targeted, getting a small crowd on your side is easier than swaying a statistically significant portion of the electorate. That said if Mab really tried she could run a successful presidential campaign starting from scratch, so it's not like inhuman amounts of dice are insignificant if you want to put in the work to leverage them like that, they just aren't instant deep programing
Basically what QM was talking about is that social mass combat can work like this, we'd just have to spend a lot of our infinitely more valuable time on it rather than other things.

I think the way for an Exalted to use power to control the city, without spending a lot of personal time on it, is to form a small (cult) group, play enough social successes to be sure of their loyalty, separate them and make them create their own groups, visit them one at a time and do the social bombing again (since the social effect appears faster in small groups), repeat until you control 80% of the political groups in the city.
 
Sharing the laws, if done correctly, wouldn't be "hey guys, these are the super powers you have, but don't use in this ways". It would be "so, here's how you give yourself schizophrenia and roll for SAN loss". Only with far better wording and good visual aids.
They put pictures of cancerous lungs on cigarette cartons and people still smoke. I have zero faith in the idea that a video full of detailed warnings is actually enough to positively impact a statistically significant number of people long term.

If my understanding is correct, tiktok, where videos are limited by time, is a very different beast from youtube.

The method you propose runs into an issue of how there is evidence that there are a ton of magical talents who don't come from anywhere connected to magical community, who are completely on their own until and unless found, and who develop and experiment with magic on their own. Which often leads them to either breaking the laws, or becoming fae / demon / fomori slaves.
I was being dismissive about it, I don't think the difference in video length will matter.

A ton is speculation, talent runs in families before anything else.

Even setting that aside, once you have people on the ground you can use them to search for people in their area playing with magic.
 
We in fact do know it can't have been that much because those artist might have been famous in their time but not legendary. Legendary 5+ success is the William Shakespeare, Mozart, leonardo da vinci. A level of skill, and ablity that enters into legend that survives the person death. If your forgotten in a century or two it was not legendary.
1) Art is often most effective in the society and time period of the artist.
If you dont understand the language? The setting? The references? You often dont get it.
There's a reason Shakespeare has all the footnotes it has.

Picasso certainly doesnt really translate very well in some societies.


2)Plenty of art, great or not, never survives the ravages of time.
Some great art never even becomes famous, or gets displayed by the creator. And in this setting, with long lived supernaturals as a thing, I suspect the only surviving examples of a lot of things are in some supernatural's vault.

I would caution about assuming that what is in human circulation represents the fullness of fae-buffed mortal artifice.

has a leader, a hierarchy, internal laws, it negotiates with the other powers as a whole... To me they look a lot like a nation. You don't deny the status of a nation-state just because it's so strong compared to others, it's ridiculous.

And I wasn't comparing anyone, just saying that Winter can't be the most powerful in all Creation (as you proclaimed) if he has others stronger than them (which you seem to agree with by this post).
Leader, hierarchy and internal laws yes. Negotiate seems more questionable.
Heaven explicitly doesnt just operate here, though. Its extra-Creation.
Like I assume Lucifer is.
The post you made and the one I was responding to didn't say anything about the Accords, rather a ranking referring to the power of supernatural nations in all of Creation.
Creation. Here. What we can see and is relevant to this sory.
I did not mean to refer to entities that are explicitly multiversal in scope, like Uriel the archangel, other entities of his power level and the White God he serves.

My apologies for any confusion.
 
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Leader, hierarchy and internal laws yes. Negotiate seems more questionable.
Heaven explicitly doesnt just operate here, though. Its extra-Creation.
Like I assume Lucifer is.

Creation. Here. What we can see and is relevant to this sory.
I did not mean to refer to entities that are explicitly multiversal in scope, like Uriel the archangel, other entities of his power level and the White God he serves.

My apologies for any confusion.
But I remember DP didn't like the whole multiversal angels thing from Butcher and change that?
 
Ome of these things is not like the others.
Major to General involves jumping multiple levels: Lt Col, Col, Brigadier General, Major-General, Lt General, General.
You went from O-4 to O-9.

Sure thats accurate?

Some Backgrounds; like Rank; are scaled oddly to squeeze the full range of tanks into five:

In a world with the amount of scrying and supernatural information sources around like the Dresden Files?
With the number of ghosts that end up lingering after their original has moved on?
Yes they'd notice.

The White Council certainly would notice and give their people a headsup.

Hell, Harry lives with Bob, whose two previous holders were a senior Warden and Kemmler. Bob would be aware from both supernatural scuttlebutt on the spirit side and information from his previous wielders. And Molly has, or soon will have, enough cyberdevils in the networks that the amount of resources required for buying politicians would come to her notice.

But they do know that the various supernatural powers basically own or have largely subverted mortal institutions. It just varies which supernatural power in what part of the world
 
Unless it immediately backfired because the white court/red court/Denarians/one of the other asshole groups immediately poisons the well with bullshit in the name of protecting supernatural secrecy.

Wow, way to shift the goalpost there, suddenly, we're not about whether the method can work or not but if bad actors would try to sabotage it, which they wouldn't do if they thought it wouldn't work, by the way.

They put pictures of cancerous lungs on cigarette cartons and people still smoke. I have zero faith in the idea that a video full of detailed warnings is actually enough to positively impact a statistically significant number of people long term.

We're back to my comment about the people on which it works being invisible there.

How many people not already addicted to nicotine didn't begin to smoke because of these pictures? It could very well be a significant number, but since we don't see them, we can't count them.

A ton is speculation, talent runs in families before anything else.

Doesn't matter, we would not be trying to reach the ones that already have an education due to their family with this thing.
 
In general signing on to help in a way that we can't currently support and probably won't help isn't ideal.

The biggest counter in my mind is that none of us are operating in a vacuum.

If we start making fomori, providing supernaturally effective training, or granting focused wishes then the people around SI will notice and respond.

If the other in the know mortals react negatively, which they probably would considering Molly's general themes, then it could end up being more trouble than it's worth for them. The Library and Daedalus are at minimum already aware and involved here, so they do have some known monitoring.

Then there's the supernatural reaction. We start openly doing stuff like this and we could very well get them targeted by people looking to cut out what looks like a budding rival for influence.

Our opposition has limits, and with our Charms we can do things that are very expensive or literally impossible for them easily. If we find something that wants an influence war for ownership of Chicago, knowing they exist (and are so part of the city's problem that needs fixing) is itself a benefit.

An additional thing to note. Thanks to VEE, if the opposition starts to push against our assets being promoted, reality will deform itself in whatever way is necessary to make them fail. If they push hard, that will at best for them make what they're pushing with obvious and at worst break it.

To give us an example, if they own the police appointments board and we use VEE to promote Murphy to Captain and they try block that, then something will happen so that she gets that promotion. The fact of the promotion is an immovable object, while their ownership of the Appointments board isn't an irresistible force. The likely result is that there ends up being either no Appointments Board with decision making power or their people on it being replaced or freed of their influence.

We're not operating in a vacuum, but we're using tools that our opposition can't match and may not even comprehend exist. They'd keep looking for how we're managing to do things when there is no how. We just decide that they will and the rest of existence bends around the fact that we've made incontestable.

We shouldn't just be doing this with SI. We should be finding people in Vice, and Internal Affairs, and the general leadership cadre, and not just in the Police, but in the DAs office, and in City Hall, and in the local big business and sports teams.

Because it's so easy for us to do what would take vast amounts of efforts from large conspiracies of supernaturals, we can hit everywhere at once so they can't respond.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 29, 2023 at 11:06 AM, finished with 99 posts and 22 votes.

  • [X] Promise to give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago in exchange for Murphy listening to your advice in such matters carefully
    [X] Offer to explore the possibilities of expanding SI's power. You might not be able to help now, but if there are those among SI and other police departments who are willing in fighting the good fight, you will be able to provide them the means of doing so in time. From training and equipment, both mundane and supernatural, to things more esoteric in nature.
    -[X] You can and do appreciate the concepts of the law and order, and would help in expanding their reach.
    [X] Promise to give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago in exchange for Murphy listening to your advice in such matters carefully
    -[X] I will be involved in a diplomatic meeting at some point between now and Halloween. I do not expect trouble from the person I am meeting with for anybody except me worst case scenario. I am less certain about potential third parties once the day is set, or their retinue in the event they bring one. Eavesdropping on the meeting is likely to end horrifically for anybody involved. The most I can say is beyond staying away from the meeeting when it happens is to be alert for weirdness when the date is set. In the meantime, I need to see what booking Mac's Pub costs.
    [X] Do not promise to give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago
    [X] Promise to give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago in exchange for Murphy listening to your advice in such matters carefully
    -[x]No Additional Promises like material upgrades for SI
 
Arc 6 Post 53: Storm and Stillness
Storm and Stillness

17th of October 2006 A.D.

Do I trust the woman in front of you, all five feet of professional aplomb and human candor? Knowing what you do about what she's done, understanding 'why' with arcane insight it is easy to say 'yes', you do so with a light heart. Special Investigations should know when monsters are in town, even monsters too powerful for them to fight or else they might get caught in the crossfire. In fact you consider making them the same offer you made Olivia.

The one universal gift of awakening the shadow self is being harder to hurt and that is definitely something Detective Murphy and her colleagues could use if they keep looking under bridges for trolls, but looking ahead to how much of your time is already spoken for... that's not a pledge you can make even generally. Not to mention that I should probably see how the binding works before I try it on strangers with little cause to take advice from a teenage girl. They can't all be as stubborn as their boss, but that is a hell of a high bar.

So you bid her farewell, glad that you had settled things amiably. Judging from her handshake in parting you guess she feels the same. It's an odd thought but you guess that makes sense, you make a hell of a contact for someone in her line of work,

***​

18th of October 2006 A.D.

The next day's a Friday, though when the final bell sounds you do not exactly rush out the door thinking of all the parties and dates you are going to have tonight. When was the last time I was even on a date? Too depressing to think about, you decide. In any case you are going to take your lame self over to Brother Divsimar's place and... learn how to brew tea.

That actually sounds a lot less impressive than it is. For people bereft of the wizard's ability to feel magic and unable to tap into external power it is pretty amazing that the shih learned how to not only deduce the minute external signs of imbalance but to assign to each one a remedy along dozens of different scales, all without poisoning the patient. So you pack up your alchemy books, courtesy of Bob and a collection of kettles and pots made from various metals and in all different styles all set to learn how to balance chi

It's raining buckets when you arrive in Hyde Park, the gutters clogged and windows above tightly shuttered against the storm, but even with the sound of thunder in your ears you can't miss who else is there. There crouching his shoulders in a battered black raincoat is J, looking... better then when you had last seen him though not by much.

As soon as he sees you he seems to shrink into himself even more.

"Hi," you flash a smile, not knowing what else to say. Somehow you do not think asking the man if he is still considered legally dead is polite.

"Hello, are you going to see Brother Divsimar... I'm... that is..."

Once both of you are out of the rain a bit of coaxing reveals that he is here to learn from the aged monk just as you are, his lessons the same ones you seek, though he is not looking to go beyond balancing the spirit. It seems that the nearness of death that was eating at him, the one that had seen him made a pawn of the akuma is... Yin imbalance, constant by the nature of his connection to Tuzi, hard to treat, but by no means impossible.

You do not know if you should be shouting at the man or congratulating him, though in the end you settle on the latter out of respect for Brother Divsimar's neighbors.

He explains that both he and Tuzi owe you and they are ready to fulfill that debt so long as it is within their power to do so. "She'd be here herself only you know cats and rain..." The joke is kind of weak, but as he waves disarmingly towards the mini-deluge outside you get an inkling of what the senri had seen in him.

"Use the debt as leverage to persuade him to join the Order of the Cauldron, Sublime Queen of Endless Night,"
Usum offers as you work to grind and seep tea leaves, leaving you momentarily bewildered, before adding. "For his own protection..." Which just makes you confused in an entirely new way before he finishes: "It is that those of lesser stature gain what mastery they can over their paltry powers and are not consumed. I have observed this, so I offer counsel. May they serve you well."

Not exactly how you would have put it, but it works, though you are not sure how much the suggestion does. Having been founded by three women the Order of the Cauldron is still not entirely comfortable accepting men, though if it were just that you would probably go ahead anyway. Men or women the minor practitioners of Chicago need to stick together, but as you had found J is... not the most reliable person. Should you make him Anna's responsibility? If you don't is he just going to end up yours again?

[] Suggest that J join the Order of the Cauldron and vouch for him

[] Say nothing, he can handle himself

[] Write in


OOC: No rolls in this one since Molly has not finished her learning yet.
 
But I remember DP didn't like the whole multiversal angels thing from Butcher and change that?
I dont recall this.
Can I please get a cite?
Some Backgrounds; like Rank; are scaled oddly to squeeze the full range of tanks into five:



But they do know that the various supernatural powers basically own or have largely subverted mortal institutions. It just varies which supernatural power in what part of the world
1)Huh. I'll take your word for it

2)Outside of specifically the Red Court and Latin America?
Supernatural powers have influence in mortal society, but not control.

For example, see the White Court which has plenty of influence in the US, including at some of the highest levels, but they cant railroad legal cases in Chicago, as we see in Jury Duty. This is a good thing, because otherwise we wouldnt really have a prayer versus people who had been peddling influence for centuries.
To give us an example, if they own the police appointments board and we use VEE to promote Murphy to Captain and they try block that, then something will happen so that she gets that promotion.
And then they shoot her.
Or run her over in a truck. Or stage a scandal that forces her to resign.

Do remember that VEE only says that a subject gets something.
It doesnt say that they cant actually lose it.
 
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My opinion on branching path infinite multiverses is a brief as it is vehement: they make everything pointless. Your friend died? That's OK, you can just pop into the universe where you died instead and be with him there. Your house burned to the ground? No worries you can just just travel to the multiverse where you were killed by a freak ice cream machine accident and take up your life there, house intact. Some supervillain destroyed the world including everything you know and love? No problem there are infinite worlds just like it only someone on the other side of the world choose to eat a different kind of toast yesterday.

These kinds of multiverses have to bend over backwards in obscure and arcane rules for why some universes exist and others do not, or for why you cannot interact with them in non-plot approved ways that just pull me all the way out of the story. If you are going to make a multiverse make the other worlds interesting and unique not depots for all the plot holes one can imagine, at least that is my take.

This is why angels are not multiversal. You get one world, don't mess it up.
 
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Major was a military rank in the 4 dots, General is a military rank in the 5 dots on the Background I was using. So I guess blame the background writer or the system.

If you generalize though...
Rank 1: Minor Rank
Rank 2: Low Rank
Rank 3: Medium Rank
Rank 4: High Rank
Rank 5: Command Staff

So in this context VEE can +1 somebodys rank perhaps.

Additionally for more things VEE can do, 2 Wishes could take somebody of above average intelligence and elevate them to Einstein/Von Neumann if Intelligence 5 is their level in this quest. Or give them sensory augmentations through Perception or the Acute Senses Merit. But sensory augmentations pale in comparison to things like wealth, status, magical training, etc.

Note that this is why you first identity an ambitious, competent, and corruptible by Molly individual part way up the org structure and recruit them before VEE-ing them to the top.

In the Police Department, you find a Captain and make them a Commander and a year later the Superintendent of Police.

Huh. I'll take your word for it

2)Outside of specifically the Red Court and Latin America?
Supernatural powers have influence in mortal society, but not control.

For example, see the White Court which has plenty of influence in the US, including at some of the highest levels, but they cant railroad legal cases in Chicago, as we see in Jury Duty. This is a good thing, because otherwise we wouldnt really have a prayer versus people who had been peddling influence for centuries.

We really do. VEE is just that good. It's why Infernals don't need any other mass social charm. VEE allows them to pretty trivially take over any mortal organisation, no matter the opposition, as the opposition doesn't get a say in the matter; any attempt to resist is basically doomed.

It can burn through minions, sure, as Join Battle is still a perfect social defence, but it's the only defence that exists against VEE for anyone that's not another solar tier Exalt with mass social perfect defence charms.

And then they shoot her.
Or run her over in a truck. Or stage a scandal that forces her to resign.

Do remember that VEE only says that a subject gets something.
It doesnt say that they cant actually lose it.

Only after she's got it. Until then any attempt would fail to stop her getting it would fail. And with the right combination of Wishes, we could make it futile to try, as we'd always get a replacement of our choice.

And that's why I said part of the plan would be to make people we recruit super-humanly competent bakemono, as they can be much harder to kill than humans.

Their likely attempts to stop the promotion in advance would probably also be detectable when they caused odd events to block them, which would give us a heads up.

If a White Court vampire sends a ghoul to kill a police captain, say, it's much harder if we've used Inner Devils unchained and they function like a Dhampyr restricted to demon disciplines (and no Joss). In the hands of someone with peak human attributes and decent weapons, a combination of Black Wind, Iron Mountain, and Demon Shintai would be a very nasty surprise when you're expecting a mortal.
 
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My opinion on branching path infinite multiverses is a brief as it is vehement: they make everything pointless. Your friend died? That's OK, you can just pop into the universe where you died instead and be with him there. Your house burned to the ground? No worries you can just just travel to the multiverse where you were killed by a freak ice cream machine accident and take up your life there, house intact. Some supervillain destroyed the world including everything you know and love? No problem there are infinite worlds just like it only someone on the other side of the world choose to eat a different kind of toast yesterday.

These kinds of multiverses have to bend over backwards in obscure and arcane rules for why some universes exist and others do not, or for why you cannot interact with them in non-plot approved ways that just pull me all the way out of the story. If you are going to make a multiverse make the other worlds interesting and unique not depots for all the plot holes one can imagine, at least that is my take.

This is why angels are not multiversal. You get one world, don't mess it up.
Noted.

That said, its worth remembering a lot of that stuff isnt relevant to the Dresdenverse in canon.
Uriel being multiversal didnt matter to that universe, because they are never going to interact with any alternates.


We really do. VEE is just that good. It's why Infernals don't need any other mass social charm. VEE allows them to pretty trivially take over any mortal organisation, no matter the opposition, as the opposition doesn't get a say in the matter; any attempt to resist is basically doomed.

It can burn through minions, sure, as Join Battle is still a perfect social defence, but it's the only defence that exists against VEE for anyone that's not another solar tier Exalt with mass social perfect defence charms.

Only after she's got it. Until then any attempt would fail to stop her getting it would fail. And with the right combination of Wishes, we could make it futile to try, as we'd always get a replacement of our choice.

And that's why I said part of the plan would be to make people we recruit super-humanly competent bakemono, as they can be much harder to kill than humans.

Their likely attempts to stop the promotion in advance would probably also be detectable when they caused odd events to block them, which would give us a heads up.

If a White Court vampire sends a ghoul to kill a police captain, say, it's much harder if we've used Inner Devils unchained and they function like a Dhampyr restricted to demon disciplines (and no Joss). In the hands of someone with peak human attributes and decent weapons, a combination of Black Wind, Iron Mountain, and Demon Shintai would be a very nasty surprise when you're expecting a mortal.
1)Not actually true.
Competent replacements dont grow on trees, and it takes time and effort to emplace them in a situation where VEE giving 1 Background dot would be a meaningful change.

These NPCs are also people, not chess pieces in a grand game.
They probably arent keen on being expended.


2)Look at our training charms again. What they can improve is limited.


3)We have no direct control over how VEE chooses to manifest.
Its worth checking with the QM if things like a wish for Resources 5 shows up due to the person's family dying in an accident and the company offering a settlement.

4)Its the White Court.
They are more likely to have you discredited and thrown out than to kill you. If they were going to kill you, its going to be something lowkey where combat abilities dont apply. An assassination. Not a fight.

None of all that stuff protects you from an entropy curse like Papa Raith was using.
A gas leak in your home. Plain poison.
Or even a sniper outside your house. Or a car bomb.
 
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Noted.

That said, its worth remembering a lot of that stuff isnt relevant to the Dresdenverse in canon.
Uriel being multiversal didnt matter to that universe, because they are never going to interact with any alternates.

Harry also was not a Solaroid. The theme of being a Solar-derived exalt of any kind is 'ask not if you can do something, but if you should'. That being the case if the multiverse existed Molly would be able to go to the hypothetical world that was identical other than the color of one of the stray cats in Chicago or the like.
 
[X] Suggest that J join the Order of the Cauldron and vouch for him
-[X] Use Naked Wicked Souls on him (supplemented by All Things Betray, and a relevant excellency) to gain better understanding of his character
 
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