Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Why not just "refuse to explain unless she promises not to tell the government, tell the truth if she does so?"
Eiko isn't exactly a major investment so far, so if Murphy lies, then fine, she isn't getting invited along next time, but the probability anything happens as a consequence is still minuscle. If she says no, that's fine too, Murphy isn't that important to us either, even if legitimacy is nice to have.
 
Why not just "refuse to explain unless she promises not to tell the government, tell the truth if she does so?"
Eiko isn't exactly a major investment so far, so if Murphy lies, then fine, she isn't getting invited along next time, but the probability anything happens as a consequence is still minuscle. If she says no, that's fine too, Murphy isn't that important to us either, even if legitimacy is nice to have.
That's a fair option, though I think it would be a tough sell sight unseen.

For my part the reason I'm approaching it as an explanation and a deferral is that IC we learned about this like ten minutes ago. We don't have a plan, we don't know who might be listening or how they might be doing it.

Without a little more to go on it's hard to definitively cross off edge cases that could end up being relevant.

Whatever we do I think an actual explanation of our general thought process should be stunted in.

Her position isn't unreasonable, she just doesn't have a lot of reason to specifically trust Molly and does have a lot of bad experiences with supernaturals going over her head for one ultimately bad reason or another.

Actually laying out the general shape of why we can't share or want her to make certain promises about what she learns rather than dictating is a pretty basic courtesy to offer an ally who has taken considerable risk to help us with no expectation of reward.
 
Why not just "refuse to explain unless she promises not to tell the government, tell the truth if she does so?"
Eiko isn't exactly a major investment so far, so if Murphy lies, then fine, she isn't getting invited along next time, but the probability anything happens as a consequence is still minuscle. If she says no, that's fine too, Murphy isn't that important to us either, even if legitimacy is nice to have.
If she actually gave that promise that might be okay, but then we'd have to convince her again that the 17-year-old knows better than the goverment.
 
1)They were fighting in midsummer, when Winter is weakest. They were fighting in reality, where you cant wield excessive amounts of power without breaking reality; thats literally why Ferrovax stayed out of it. They were fighting during a major Outsider offensive, when most of Winter's resources were focused on defense of reality.

Ethniu was a Titan, and explicitly stronger personally than pretty much everyone else on that battlefield.
And yet she was vulnerable to a mortal wielding a Sword.
A lot of the Dresdenverse is rock-paper-scissors.


2)The Fomor are signatories because they arent really very strong. The Courts had trashed them before and they ran. Noone outside the Fomor even knew Ethniu was alive, and Ethniu preserved her power levels by staying away from reality; the moment she showed up, she began to eat the debuff that the White God had declared on any divinity that chose to stay active in reality.



3)In Exalted, even 3CDs generally needed significant effort to kill a city. It wasnt a trivial issue.

For Solaroids, citykiller attacks needed either Solar Circle Sorcery along the lines of Rain of Doom or Total Annihilation OR Exalted Craft for Thousand-Forged Dragons or Soulkiller Orbs or Five Metal Shrikes OR creative reinterpretation of Sideral Martial Arts OR elder Charms.

Mab's ability to fuck the globe with personal powers put her firmly in 3CD territory.



4)Mab, Titania and a bunch of others are true immortals, not just unaging but undying.
You can kill them with sufficient effort, but you cant truekill them outside specific conditions with regards to date and place.
They'll just come back. Pissed.

1) I did note that Mab was weak at the team, but you realize who wasn't weak? Titania (it's midsummer! Mab's rival is at the height of her power!)

And Ethniu, without the Eye, took her out like a trashbag, and had enough muscle to do the same to Odin and the Erlking, and not even be severely damaged. That's not a good showing for these immortals.

(Also, even for being the strongest being on the field, Ethniu at most destroyed a few city blocks at a time, and needed to recharge afterwards. That's just not the same level of casual destruction I imagined for a cthonic Titan come again. That's less than a couple MOABs!)

Swords of the Cross are very much an exception, and it is weird that Knights of the Cross aren't a part of the Accords given their capabilities (but the Denarians are?!?!)

2) How aren't the Fomor strong? Why did they sign on to the Accords, when they know about Ethniu juicing harder than anyone combined? (If Mab threatened them, they could've just laughed it off and gone their merry way. They already did pretty much that, given how they treated the Accords even when part of them. Hint, the first peace talks they attended did not end well)

You say Ethniu was eating a debuff, but again Ethniu with that debuff, without the Eye, was still enough to 3v1 Titania at the height of her power after being debuffed a third time with a waterfall straight to the head. Odin and the Erlking were literally afterthoughts to her at that point. If that's Ethniu debuffed, it doesn't matter that she's debuffed because she's still strong enough to wreck everybody else who'd threaten the Fomor into signing

3) I'm not denying Mab's supposed and never seen on-screen abilities to ice age the entire world isn't amazing. I'm just saying, that ability clearly isn't useful in a fight given she was in a fight for her life and didn't use it.

Similarly, I was focusing less on raw output of destruction of the Exalted and more the nature of their Perfect Defenses: namely, they're cheap for their buck and scale pretty damn high, compared to anything we've seen Dresden Files show.

Take the nuke example. Mab was wiped out nullifying one shot from the Eye of Balor, which she explicity said she used raw power to tank, because she ran the calculations and realized she had enough in the tank to block it once. Somewhat impressive to stop a reality bending attack in its track (somewhat weird when you look back and realize the aforementioned attack didn't ever do that much material damage, even in absolute terms), but one shot and Mab's out. Meanwhile, Exalted could take that shot head-on multiple times, or dodge it, or parry it, at only a relative fraction of their total Essence.

If Molly had to take the Eye head-on (once she gets the right charms), she could take it multiple times, and she could do it even if the Eye was 3x or 5x or 100x stronger. Mab, in any other circumstance, would've had to eat it straight to the face. Her defense was very much not a Perfect Defense in Exalted terms, given it was dependent on her having enough raw power to stop whatever's coming for her ass.

4) I'm not sure why this matters, given
A) it doesn't matter if Titania came straight back after Ethniu suplexed her, because Ethniu would've just done the same again and again. Being immortal and undying is great unless you're not the biggest cat on the block, because then you're just a punching bag. You being pissed about that means nothing when you don't have the power to do anything about it.
B) Molly, funnily enough, has put "sufficient effort" into being able to kill immortals. The same amount of effort most Exalted would've put into killing demons or gods who were also true immortals. You know what happens to them when they fight an Exalted with the right Charms? They die. Immortality is great unless you're fighting someone who ignores your immortality.

Really, the argument I'm trying to make isn't take DF doesn't have heavyweights who can do super radical cool stuff. DF does have those!

I'm just saying, in a scrap, most people are going to start running out of power and subsequently dying if Molly starts throwing around MOABs or nukes around (getting them and finding a place to use them is the hard part). So while defending Chicago from Ethniu invading might be rough, if Molly were proactive and took a nuke with her to pay an Exalted diplomatic visit to the Winter/Summer Court/Fomor lands, we all know how that's gonna end.

Lotta radioactive (and DEAD) fae/fomor. Including Mab and Titania.

Just to point out, large effects may not be more powerful than smaller ones. Like the difference between a heating pad and a blowtorch.

Both produce heat, but one is much more intense than the other, while being smaller.

Yeah, but we've seen on screen which is more intense. It's not the city block buster, I'll tell you that much. A nuke has a larger effect than the Eye of Balor (kinda sad to say), but it also is a whole lot more powerful and intense. A nuke's aftereffects dont get washed away from like 60 seconds of a rainstorm, and a nuke also doesn't leave any survivors in the same way the Eye of Balor was surprisingly happy to spare anything that wasn't part of the Chicago architectural landscape. More people survived multiple firings of the Eye than, I can assure you, would've survived a Davy Crockett going off anywhere close by.
 
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Why did they sign on to the Accords, when they know about Ethniu juicing harder than anyone combined? (If Mab threatened them, they could've just laughed it off and gone their merry way. They already did pretty much that, given how they treated the Accords even when part of them. Hint, the first peace talks they attended did not end well)
That's your answer right there. Accords aren't magically binding, and don't have any "the one who breaks the accords will be the enemy of all who signed it and the signers will be obligated to fight them" or equivalent clause. They are enforced primarily by Winter. If Fomor were already planning to fight Winter long term, the accords wouldn't be worth the paper they were written on to them. They could as well sign them in order to buy themselves time.
 
Swords of the Cross are very much an exception, and it is weird that Knights of the Cross aren't a part of the Accords given their capabilities (but the Denarians are?!?!)
they specifically aren't because the Denarians are. If they were both members the nickelheads could use the terms to tie the knights up in bullshit.

2) How aren't the Fomor strong? Why did they sign on to the Accords, when they know about Ethniu juicing harder than anyone combined? (If Mab threatened them, they could've just laughed it off and gone their merry way. They already did pretty much that, given how they treated the Accords even when part of them. Hint, the first peace talks they attended did not end well)
It's worth noting that the Fomor spent a very long time before canon as everyone's bitch. That's why they're so bitter. Breaking the accords after they'd gotten high on outsider juice and started growing after expanding into the vacuum left by the reds was an entirely different ball game.

But yeah, that whole book read like bad fanfiction more than a regular installment of the series. Just look at how many scenes are spent with random important people with better things to do at the time are spent talking about how cool Harry is. Or the pointless, contextless, callbacks like the mercenary who he paid one dollar for because that was his price to betray the Denarians last time he showed up.

It's canon, but it's really shit canon that should mostly be taken as special circumstances. Primarily because if you take it as business as usual half of the preceding stories stop making sense.

Nearly everyone is fractally stupid, half the cast forgets their own abilities/resources, and the antagonists pull random crap out of their asses whenever needed by the plot.

Yeah, but we've seen on screen which is more intense. It's not the city block buster, I'll tell you that much. A nuke has a larger effect than the Eye of Balor (kinda sad to say), but it also is a whole lot more powerful and intense. A nuke's aftereffects dont get washed away from like 60 seconds of a rainstorm, and a nuke also doesn't leave any survivors in the same way the Eye of Balor was surprisingly happy to spare anything that wasn't part of the Chicago architectural landscape. More people survived multiple firings of the Eye than, I can assure you, would've survived a Davy Crockett going off anywhere close by.
And yet it can apparently kill galaxy busting archangels is they'd just sit still. This would be part of the stupid nonsense that came out of that whole arc.
 
And yet it can apparently kill galaxy busting archangels is they'd just sit still. This would be part of the stupid nonsense that came out of that whole arc.

I'm assuming that firepower =/= durability in this case, that just because the POTUS has nuclear launch codes doesn't mean he can get in a cage match with Mike Tyson. That's the only reason I can think of for why something so unimpressive as the Eye of Balor could take out an Archangel.

(Though Butcher was emphasizing that's only possible if Uriel doesn't do the same as Mab and block it or just nope and teleport out)
 
When reading the books Murphy is a great supporting cast character. But when you look at her from an outside perspective shes just a very hypocritical corrupt cop. Her responses to anything that is powerful enough to ignore the law is to cower away from it while complaining about how weak mortals are and when she is in a position of power over anything supernatural she beats them illegally or kills them. This has repeatedly been shown with how she treats anyone who resists her 'I'm a cop you will obey and keep no information from me' attitude
 
I'm assuming that firepower =/= durability in this case, that just because the POTUS has nuclear launch codes doesn't mean he can get in a cage match with Mike Tyson. That's the only reason I can think of for why something so unimpressive as the Eye of Balor could take out an Archangel.

(Though Butcher was emphasizing that's only possible if Uriel doesn't do the same as Mab and block it or just nope and teleport out)
I would consider it a very powerfull shaper effect, maybe a remmant of a very old and powerfull raksha. You can block It with charms but if you dont have defense against it is insta-kill
 
I'm assuming that firepower =/= durability in this case, that just because the POTUS has nuclear launch codes doesn't mean he can get in a cage match with Mike Tyson. That's the only reason I can think of for why something so unimpressive as the Eye of Balor could take out an Archangel.

(Though Butcher was emphasizing that's only possible if Uriel doesn't do the same as Mab and block it or just nope and teleport out)
There's something to that, considering angels can give away their grace, but it isn't the full story.

Butcher makes a point about how angels are something fundamentally different than everyone else. See:

Info about really powerful beings
The Mothers are extremely powerful beings, I mean, they're really really well, you can tell because they hardly ever show up on the real world. In the Dresden Files universe if you don't show up on the real world, it's because you're too big to walk around there. For instance, I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn't bear his weight, it's not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it's that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you're in the real world, well, the problem is that you're in the world, and you're kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they're fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn't mind it, he thinks it's awesome. But anyway, you can always tell. If there's folks who don't show up in the real world, it's because they're super big. So, like, an angel shows up, and it's just sort of a whispered presence that one person is aware of, that's because he's just too big to show up here, it's a giant sandbox, and he's got to be very very careful to not squash the sandbox. So, he just shows up for that one bit.
There's another that I'm looking for but haven't found yet where he talks about Mab's relationship with Uriel/angels in general being similar to the relationship between an npc in a video game and the computer it runs on.

The eye of balor is like a gun you can shoot at a dev's test npc in an MMO, and if they forget to make it dodge they fall dead at their desk.
 
The eye of balor is like a gun you can shoot at a dev's test npc in an MMO, and if they forget to make it dodge they fall dead at their desk.

That analogy sounds about right. It's just kinda sad that said super-gun, in the actual MMO, isn't even that good of a weapon (if by MMO we mean reality, in which the top tier weapons would all be nukes of some sort). The Eye of Balor is probably the most powerful magical effect we've ever seen on-screen that's usable for a fight, and it's definitely a let-down in comparsion to most mundane weaponry.

Which makes sense given every supernatural faction is terrified of humanity, but man I thought they were a bit stronger than just "the most powerful being is a city block-buster". I thought that when it comes down to the wire, Mab could summon a mini-ice age or Titania could fire sun-beam lasers or whatever, but it turns out they're all really weak in a straight up fight to the death.
 
When reading the books Murphy is a great supporting cast character. But when you look at her from an outside perspective shes just a very hypocritical corrupt cop. Her responses to anything that is powerful enough to ignore the law is to cower away from it while complaining about how weak mortals are and when she is in a position of power over anything supernatural she beats them illegally or kills them. This has repeatedly been shown with how she treats anyone who resists her 'I'm a cop you will obey and keep no information from me' attitude
That's an interesting take away from her character, which I strongly disagree with. She isn't perfect, but a core part of her character is the struggle to protect people and find justice in an environment where everything is extrajudicial and eating humans is largely considered normal.

She doesn't exactly run around holding guys like Toot-Toot at gunpoint or beating up minor talents. Her encounters with the supernatural for most of the books are almost exclusively after they've they've been caught hurting people and there isn't a way for her to make them stop without a hearty helping of violence.

She tried and saw people try to arrest violent supernaturals before, and more often than not it ended with a lot of dead people and the creature in question going on their merry way. In the cases where they didn't the suspect gets out one way or another anyway.

Unlike here, Murphy had no in the know law enforcement support to lean on. Telling people what was going on or even attempting to start improve the organizational situation is impossible because no one believes her. Her office was founded to tell comforting lies to the public and department at large.

She wasn't perfect, but what exactly was she supposed to do that she didn't?

Was she supposed to Marandize Black Court fledglings while they tried to eat her face? Drag a Skavis into court and explain that he's been causing suicides with his magical depression powers? Used her taser against that bridge troll that was eating children in the case where she met Dresden?

The whole situation was screwed up from the start, seems unfair to characterize dealing with it as well as it allowed with the tools available as corrupt or cowardly.
 
Let me try again.
These are canon citations of Murphy being mindwhammied in canon, her will subverted trivially:
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Last Call short story
I came in and found a plush-looking room, complete with dark, thick carpeting, leather sofas, a buffet bar, a wet bar, and two women making out on a leather love seat.
They looked up as I shut the door behind me. Murphy's expression was, at best, vague, her eyes hazy, unfocused, the pupils dilated until you could hardly see any blue, and her lips were a little swollen with kissing. She saw me, and a slow and utterly sensuous smile spread over her mouth. "Harry. There you are."
The other woman gave me the same smile with a much more predatory edge. She had shoulder-length hair, so black, it was highlighted with dark, shining blue. Her green-gold eyes were bright and intense, her mouth full. She was dressed in a grey business skirt-suit, with the jacket off and her shirt mostly unbuttoned, if not quite indecent. She was, otherwise, as Burt Decker had described her—statuesque and beautiful.
"So," she said in a throaty, rich voice, "this is Harry Dresden."
"Yes," Murphy said, slurring the word drunkenly. "Harry. And his rod." She let out a giggle.
I mean, my God. She giggled.
"I like his looks," the brunette said. "Strong. Intelligent."
"Yeah," Murphy said. "I've wanted him for the longest time." She tittered. "Him and his rod."
I pointed said blasting rod at Meditrina Bassarid. "What have you done to her?"
"I?" the woman said. "Nothing."
Murphy's face flushed. "Yet."
The woman let out a smoky laugh, toying with Murphy's hair. "We're getting to that. I only shared the embrace of the god with her, Wizard."
"I was going to kick your ass for that," Murphy said. She looked around, and I noticed that a broken lamp lay on the floor, and the end table it had sat on had been knocked over, evidence of a struggle. "But I feel so good now. ..." Smoldering blue eyes found me. "Harry. Come sit down with us."
"You should," the woman murmured. "We'll have a good time." She produced a bottle of Mac's ale from somewhere. "Come on. Have a drink with us."
All I'd wanted was a beer, for Pete's sake.
But this wasn't what I had in mind. It was just wrong. I told myself very firmly that it was wrong. Even if Karrin managed, somehow, to make her gun's shoulder rig look like lingerie.
Or maybe that was me.
"Meditrina was a Roman goddess of wine," I said instead. "And the bassarids were another name for the handmaidens of Dionysus." I nodded at the beer in her hand and said, "I thought maenads were wine snobs."
Her mouth spread in a wide, genuine-looking smile, and her teeth were very white. "Any spirit is the spirit of the god, mortal."
"That's what the psychic conduit links them to," I said. "To Dionysus. To the god of revels and ecstatic violence."
"Of course," the maenad said. "Mortals have forgotten the true power of the god. The time has come to begin reminding them."
"If you're going to muck with the drinks, why not start with the big beer dispensary in the arena? You'd get it to a lot more people that way."
She sneered at me. "Beer, brewed in cauldrons the size of houses by machines and then served cold. It has no soul. It isn't worthy of the name."
"Got it," I said. "You're a beer snob."
She smiled, her gorgeous green eyes on mine. "I needed something real. Something a craftsman took loving pride in creating."
This actually made sense, from a technical perspective. Magic is about a lot of things, and one of them is emotion. Once you begin to mass-manufacture anything, by the very nature of the process, you lose the sense of personal attachment you might have to something made by hand. For the maenad's purposes, it would have meant that the mass-produced beer had nothing she could sink her magical teeth into, no foundation upon which to lay her complex compulsion.
Mac's beer certainly qualified as being produced with pride—real, personal pride, I mean, not official corporate spokesperson pride.
"Why?" I asked her. "Why do this at all?"
"I am hardly alone in my actions, Wizard," she responded. "And it is who I am."
I frowned and tilted my head at her.
"Mortals have forgotten the gods," she said, hints of anger creeping into her tone. "They think the White God drove out the many gods. But they are here. We are here. I, too, was worshipped in my day, mortal man."
"Maybe you didn't know this," I said, "but most of us couldn't give a rat's ass. Raining down thunderbolts from on high isn't exclusive territory anymore."
She snarled, her eyes growing even brighter. "Indeed. We withdrew and gave the world into your keeping—and what has become of it? In two thousand years, you've poisoned and raped Mother Earth, who gave you life. You've cut down the forests, fouled the air, and darkened Apollo's chariot itself with the stench of your smithies."
"And touching off a riot at the Bulls game is going to make some kind of point?" I demanded.
She smiled, showing sharp canines. "My sisters have been doing football matches on the continent for years. We're expanding the franchise." She drank from the bottle, wrapping her lips around it and making sure I noticed. "Moderation. It's disgusting. We should have strangled Aristotle in his crib. Alcoholism—calling the god a disease!" She bared her teeth at me. "A lesson must be taught."
Murphy shivered, and then her expression turned ugly, her blue eyes focusing on me.
"Show your respect to the god, Wizard," the maenad spat. "Drink. Or I will introduce you to Pentheus and Orpheus."
Greek guys. Both of whom were torn to pieces by maenads and their mortal female companions in orgies of ecstatic violence.
Murphy was breathing heavily now, sweating, her cheeks flushed, her eyes burning with lust and rage. And she was staring right at me.
Hooboy.
"Make you a counteroffer," I said quietly. "Break off the enchantment on the beer and get out of my town, now, and I won't FedEx you back to the Aegean in a dozen pieces."
"If you will not honor the god in life," Meditrina said, "then you will honor him in death." She flung out a hand, and Murphy flew at me with a howl of primal fury.
I ran away.

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Blood Rites c39
"That's good," Raith said. He still had her by the neck, with the knife he held actually pressed a tiny bit into the wound he'd already given. "Defiance adds a great deal of enjoyment to feeding, Ms. Murphy." He put a contemptuous emphasis on the honorific. "It is, after all, a great deal more pleasurable to conquer than to rule. And defiant women can be conquered again and again before they break."
I ignored Raith. "How's your side?"
Murphy shot a glare over her shoulder at her captor. "A little prick like this? It's nothing."
In answer, Raith threw Murphy against the wall. She caught herself and turned, her hand blurring in a short, vicious strike.
Raith wasn't human. He caught her hand without so much as looking at it. He drove her hand and wrist back against the wall, and brought the bloodied tip of his knife sharply up under her chin. Her lip twisted into a defiant snarl and her knee lashed up as she kicked. Raith blocked it with a sweep of his thigh and pressed in close to her, all sinuous, serpentine speed and strength, until he was pressed to her front, his face to hers, raven-black hair mingling with her dark gold.
"Warrior women are all the same," Raith said, his eyes on Murphy's. His voice was low, slow, lilting. "You all know your way around struggling with other bodies. But you know little about the needs of your own."
Murphy stared at him, shoulders twitching, and her lips slowly parted.
"It's bound into you," Raith whispered. "Deeper than muscle and bone. The need. The only way to escape the blackness of death. You cannot deny it. Cannot escape it. In joy, in despair, in darkness, in pain, mortalkind still feels desire." His hand slid down from her wrist, his fingertips lightly brushing the thick veins. A soft sound escaped from Murphy's throat.
Raith smiled. "There. You already feel yourself weakening. I've taken thousands like you, lovely child. Taken them and broken them. There was nothing they could do. There is nothing you can do. You were made to feel desire. I was made to use it against you. It is the natural cycle. Life and death. Mating and death. Predator and prey."
Raith leaned closer with each word, and brushed his lips against Murphy's throat as he spoke. "Born mortal. Born weak. And easily taken."
Murphy's eyes went wide. Her body arched in shock. She let out a low, sobbing sound, as she tried and failed to hold back her voice.
Raith drew his head slowly back, smiling down at Murphy. "And that's only a taste, child. When you know what it is to be truly taken later this night, you will understand that your life ended the moment I wanted you." His hand moved, sudden and hard, digging his thumb against the wound in her ribs. Her face went white, and another, similar cry escaped her. She crumpled, and Raith let her fall to the ground. He stood over her for a moment, and then said, "We'll have days, little one. Weeks. You can spend them in agony or in bliss. The important thing to realize is that I'll be the one who decides which. You are no longer in command of your body. Nor your mind. You no longer have a choice in the matter."

Murphy gathered herself together and managed to lift her eyes again. They were defiant, and blurred with tears, but I could see the terror in them as well-and a sort of sickened, hideous desire. "You're a liar," she whispered. "I am my own."
Raith said, quietly, "I can always tell when a woman feels desire, Ms. Murphy. I can feel yours. Part of you is so tired of being disciplined. Tired of being afraid. Tired of denying yourself for the good of others." He knelt down, and Murphy's eyes shied away from his. "That part of you is what wanted to feel the pleasure I just gave. And it is that part of you that will grow as it feels more. The defiant young woman is already dead. She is simply too afraid to admit it."
He seized her hair and started dragging her, careless and hard. I saw her face for a second, confusion and fear and anger warring for control of her expression. But I knew she'd taken a wound far more grievous than any physical injury I'd seen her sustain. Raith had forced her to feel something, and there had been nothing she could do to stop him. She'd done her best to tear into him, and he had slapped her down like a child.
It wasn't Murphy's fault that she'd lost that fight. It wasn't her fault that he'd forced sensation upon her. I mean, hell, he was the lord of the freaking nation of sexual predators, and even weakened and hampered by my mother's curse, he had been able to take apart Murphy's psychic and emotional defenses.
If he got the full measure of his powers back, what he would do to Murphy in retaliation for what my mother had done to him would be worse than death.

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Grave Peril c19

The district station Murphy worked in crouched down amongst taller buildings that surrounded it, solid and square and a bit battered, like a tough old sergeant amongst a forest of tall, young recruits. I ran up the stairs, taking my blasting rod with me, with my Scooby-Doo lunch box in my right hand.
The grizzled old sergeant behind the desk blinked at me as I came panting through the doorway. "Dresden?"
"Hi," I panted. "Which way did I go?"
He blinked. "What?"
"Did I come through here a minute ago?"
His thick, grey moustache twitched in nervous little motions. He took a look at his clipboard. "Yeah. You went up to see Lieutenant Murphy just a minute ago."
"Great," I said. "I need to see her again. Buzz me through?"
He peered at me, a little closer, then reached forward to buzz me through. "What's going on here, Mr. Dresden?"
"Believe me," I said, "As soon as I work that out, I'll be sure to tell you." I opened the door and headed through, up the stairs, and toward the S.I. offices on the fourth floor. I pounded through the doors and sprinted down the rows of desks toward Murphy's office. Stallings and Rudolph both started up from their chairs, blinking as I went past.
"What the hell?" Rudy blurted, his eyes widening.
"Where's Murphy?" I shouted.
"In her office," Stallings stammered, "with you."
Murphy's office stood at the back of the room, with cheap walls and a cheap door that finally bore a genuine metallic nameplate with her name and title on it. I leaned back and drove my heel at the doorknob. The cheap door splintered, but I had to kick it again to send it swinging open.
Murphy sat at her desk, still wearing the clothes I'd last seen her in. She'd taken her hat off, and her short blonde hair was mussed. The circles beneath her eyes were almost as dark as bruises. She sat perfectly still, staring forward with her blue eyes set in an expression of horror.
I stood behind her, all in black—the same outfit I'd worn the night we'd stopped Kravos and his demon. The Nightmare looked like me. Its hands rested on either side of her face, fingertips on her temples—except that they had, somehow, pressed into her head, reaching down through skin and bone as though gently massaging her brain. The Nightmare was smiling, leaning down a bit toward her, head canted as though listening to music. I didn't know my face was capable of making an expression like that—serene and malicious and frightening.
I stared for a second in sheer horror at the weirdness of the sight. Then blurted, "Get the hell off of her!"
The Nightmare's dark eyes snapped up, sparkling with a cold, calm intelligence. It lifted its lips away from its teeth in an abrupt snarl. "Be thou silent, wizard," it murmured, steel and razor blades in its words. "Else I will tear thee apart, as I already have this night."
A little gibbering shriek of terror started somewhere down in my quivering belly, but I refused to give it a voice. I heard Rudy and Stallings coming behind me. I lifted the blasting rod and leveled it at the Nightmare's head. "I said to get off of her."
The Nightmare's mouth twisted into a smile. It lifted its hands away from Murphy, fingers just sliding out of her skin as though from water, and showed me its palms. "There is something thou hast forgotten, wizard."
"Yeah?" I asked. "What's that?"
"I have partaken of thee. I am what thou art," the Nightmare whispered. He flicked his wrists toward me. "Ventas servitas."
Wind roared up in a sudden fury and hurled me from my feet, back into the air. I collided with Rudolph and Stallings as they ran forward. We all went down in a heap upon the ground.
I lay there stunned for a moment. I heard the Nightmare walk out. It just walked past us, footsteps calm and quiet, and left the room. We gathered ourselves together slowly, sitting up.
"What the hell?" Rudolph said.
My head hurt, in back. I must have slammed it into something. I pressed a hand against my skull, and groaned. "Oh, stars," I muttered. "I should have known better than to give him a straight line like that."
Stallings had blood running out his nose and into his greying moustache. Flecks of red spotted his white dress shirt. "That … Good Lord, Dresden. What was that thing?"
I pushed myself to my feet. Everything wobbled for a moment. My whole body shook, and I felt like I might just fall over and start crying like a baby. It had used my magic. It had stolen my face and my magic and used them both to hurt people. It made me want to start screaming, to tear something apart with my bare hands.
Instead, I staggered toward Murphy's office. "It's what got Malone," I told Stallings. "It's kind of complicated."
Murphy still sat in her chair, her eyes wide and staring and horrified, her hands folded into her lap. "Murph?" I asked. "Karrin? Can you hear me?"
She didn't move. But her breath came out with a little edge to it, as though she had tried to speak. She breathed. Thank God. I knelt down and took her hands in mine. They felt ice cold.
"Murph," I whispered. I waved my hand in front of her eyes, and snapped my fingers sharply. She didn't so much as blink.
Rudolph's handsome face was pale. "I'll call downstairs. Tell them not to let him out." I heard him go to the nearest phone and start calling down to the desk. I didn't bother to tell him that it wouldn't do any good. The Nightmare could walk out through the walls if it needed to.
Stallings joined me in the room, looking shaken and a little grey. He stared at Murphy for a long moment, and then asked, "What is it? What's wrong with her?"
I peered at her eyes. They were dilated wide. I braced myself, and looked deeper into her eyes. When a wizard looks into your eyes, you cannot hide from him. He can see deep down into you, see the truest parts of your character, the dark places and the light—and you see him in return. Eyes are the windows to the soul. I searched for Murphy behind all of that terror, and waited for the soulgaze to begin.
Nothing happened.
Murphy just sat there, staring ahead. Another low breath rattled out, not quite making a sound—but I recognized the effort she was making for what it was.
Murphy was screaming.
I had no idea what she was seeing, what horrors the Nightmare had set before her eyes. What it had taken from her. I touched her throat with gentle fingertips, but I couldn't feel the bone-chilling cold of the torment-spell like the one upon Malone. At least there was that much. But if I couldn't see inside of her, then Murphy was in another place. The lights were on, but no one was home.

"She's … This thing has messed with her head. I think it's making her see things. Things that aren't here. I don't think she knows where she is, and she can't seem to move."
"Christ preserve," Stallings whispered. "What can we do?"
"John," I said, quietly. "I need you to pull the evidence files from the Kravos case. I need that big leather book that we found at his apartment."
Stallings started, and then stared at me. "You need what?"
I repeated my request.
He closed his eyes. "Jesus, Dresden. I don't know. I don't know if I could get it. There's been some stuff come up lately."
"I need that book," I said. "The thing that's doing this is a kind of demon. Kravos will have that demon's name written down in his spell book. If I can get that name, I can catch this thing and stop it. I can make it tell me how to help Murph."
"You don't understand. It isn't going to be that easy for me. This has gotten complicated, and I'm not going to be able to just walk into storage and get the damn thing for you, Dresden." He studied Murphy with worried eyes. "It could cost me my job."
I set my Scooby-Doo lunch box on the floor and opened it up. "Listen to me," I said. "I'm going to try to help Murphy. I need someone to stay with her until dawn and then to take her back to her house—or better yet, to Malone's house."
"Why?" Stallings asked. "What are you doing?"
"I think this thing is making her live through some messed up stuff—like in a nightmare. I'm pretty sure I can stop it, but she'll still be vulnerable. So I'm going to set up a protection around her so that she'll be safe until dawn." Once morning rolled around, the Nightmare would be trapped in whatever mortal body it possessed, or else would have to flee to the Nevernever. "Someone will need to watch her, in case she wakes up."
"Rudolph can do it," Stallings said, and rose to his feet. "I'll talk to him."
I looked up at him. "I need that book, John."
He frowned, studying the ground in front of me. "Are we going to be able to catch this thing, Dresden?" We meaning the police. I could hear that much in his voice.
I shook my head.
"If I get the book for you," he said, "can you help the lieutenant?"
I nodded at him.
He closed his eyes and let out a breath. "All right," he whispered. Then he walked out. I heard him talking to Rudolph a moment later.

As evidenced, in Last Call she was induced to attack Dresden on command.
In Blood Rites Papa Raith went inside her mind and performed the equivalent of a sexual assault, even with her knowledge and .
In Grave Peril, the Nightmare walked into her office, put his hand on her head and mindfucked her into catatonia.

She is mortal, with all the benefits and vulnerabilities thereof
Short of when she was carrying the Sword Fidelacchius, and when Bob was providing protection from her mind at Chitchen Itza, she has no mental defences against mindfuckery.

And the entire kueijin Discipline of Obligation is just advanced mindfuckery that most mortals cant defend against.

Standard Powers

[*]Evaluate: The Kuei-jin scans the Hun of his opposite to discern weaknesses

[*]Soul Bridge: The Kuei-jin can link his Hun with the Hun of his opposite, allowing him to appear more trustworthy to it.

[*]Authority: By exerting his Hun, the Kuei-jin can assume an aura of natural authority that affects everyone near to him. These creatures also find themselves unable to lie to the Kuei-jin. In the eyes of affected individuals, the Kuei-jin is a person of rank and importance; victims obey him with little thought as to why. Most mortals don't even realize that the Cathayan's authority is supernatural, although wise ancients might suspect, and shen certainly know.

[*]Thousand Hell Stare: This power enables the wielder to channel all his guilt, frustration, anger, and hunger into his Hun soul and then project this negative psychic energy like a knife into his victim's soul.

[*]Soul Shackles: The Kuei-jin can create permanent bonds between his Hun and the Hun of another person.

This means that satisfying Murphy's curiosity puts not just her life at risk
It puts Eiko's soul at risk, and that of the shen and other people who have allegedly agreed to help her attempt to change Emma-O, of whom there is apparently a whole conspiracy of mortals and shen:
As ways of asking if Eiko has any help go that one is really blunt, almost dismissive, but apparently the way to go. The sudden hitch of in drawn breath for one that does not need to breathe and fingers snapping closed upon a lock of black hair that she is quick to tuck behind her ear, the akuma is worried you will say no, afraid.

"Many there are who walk the path, one close by who weaves it tight."

"What...?" you breathe before you can bite back the words. Eiko had spoken to Smiling Jack, gained his cooperation, you would not put it past him of course but you had seen no sign of that at the meeting. She must have swayed him tonight. That does make an odd sort of sense if there are other shen on this conspiracy of redemption then they could be used to make contact with one of your known allies and establish a means of uncensored communication before the scheduled meeting on the fifth. Then of course things had started to move at breakneck speed leaving you here having a conversion in code.
"So it is, so you shall pass into the long sleep of mortalkind." She rolls the tip of her tongue, into a soft melody, meaningless words, that have all the meaning in the world. That sort of music isn't Japanese at all it is Ainu the people to whom the dread lord of the Night Realm was once the fair and honorable judge of the dead. Eiko has allies, not just among the shen, but also among those mortals closest to whatever might remain of Emma-O's heart and they are working to restore him.


It also puts Molly and her allies at risk, because its entirely possible for Emma-O to find out, and then simply lay a trap for everyone involved in an attempt to grab Molly and her allies.
Instead of sending assassins after everyone individually.


Lieutenant Murphy's curiosity should not get priority over the lives of all these people and their lifes work.
 
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1) I did note that Mab was weak at the team, but you realize who wasn't weak? Titania (it's midsummer! Mab's rival is at the height of her power!)

And Ethniu, without the Eye, took her out like a trashbag, and had enough muscle to do the same to Odin and the Erlking, and not even be severely damaged. That's not a good showing for these immortals.

(Also, even for being the strongest being on the field, Ethniu at most destroyed a few city blocks at a time, and needed to recharge afterwards. That's just not the same level of casual destruction I imagined for a cthonic Titan come again. That's less than a couple MOABs!)

Swords of the Cross are very much an exception, and it is weird that Knights of the Cross aren't a part of the Accords given their capabilities (but the Denarians are?!?!)

2) How aren't the Fomor strong? Why did they sign on to the Accords, when they know about Ethniu juicing harder than anyone combined? (If Mab threatened them, they could've just laughed it off and gone their merry way. They already did pretty much that, given how they treated the Accords even when part of them. Hint, the first peace talks they attended did not end well)

You say Ethniu was eating a debuff, but again Ethniu with that debuff, without the Eye, was still enough to 3v1 Titania at the height of her power after being debuffed a third time with a waterfall straight to the head. Odin and the Erlking were literally afterthoughts to her at that point. If that's Ethniu debuffed, it doesn't matter that she's debuffed because she's still strong enough to wreck everybody else who'd threaten the Fomor into signing

3) I'm not denying Mab's supposed and never seen on-screen abilities to ice age the entire world isn't amazing. I'm just saying, that ability clearly isn't useful in a fight given she was in a fight for her life and didn't use it.

Similarly, I was focusing less on raw output of destruction of the Exalted and more the nature of their Perfect Defenses: namely, they're cheap for their buck and scale pretty damn high, compared to anything we've seen Dresden Files show.

Take the nuke example. Mab was wiped out nullifying one shot from the Eye of Balor, which she explicity said she used raw power to tank, because she ran the calculations and realized she had enough in the tank to block it once. Somewhat impressive to stop a reality bending attack in its track (somewhat weird when you look back and realize the aforementioned attack didn't ever do that much material damage, even in absolute terms), but one shot and Mab's out. Meanwhile, Exalted could take that shot head-on multiple times, or dodge it, or parry it, at only a relative fraction of their total Essence.

If Molly had to take the Eye head-on (once she gets the right charms), she could take it multiple times, and she could do it even if the Eye was 3x or 5x or 100x stronger. Mab, in any other circumstance, would've had to eat it straight to the face. Her defense was very much not a Perfect Defense in Exalted terms, given it was dependent on her having enough raw power to stop whatever's coming for her ass.

4) I'm not sure why this matters, given
A) it doesn't matter if Titania came straight back after Ethniu suplexed her, because Ethniu would've just done the same again and again. Being immortal and undying is great unless you're not the biggest cat on the block, because then you're just a punching bag. You being pissed about that means nothing when you don't have the power to do anything about it.
B) Molly, funnily enough, has put "sufficient effort" into being able to kill immortals. The same amount of effort most Exalted would've put into killing demons or gods who were also true immortals. You know what happens to them when they fight an Exalted with the right Charms? They die. Immortality is great unless you're fighting someone who ignores your immortality.

Really, the argument I'm trying to make isn't take DF doesn't have heavyweights who can do super radical cool stuff. DF does have those!

I'm just saying, in a scrap, most people are going to start running out of power and subsequently dying if Molly starts throwing around MOABs or nukes around (getting them and finding a place to use them is the hard part). So while defending Chicago from Ethniu invading might be rough, if Molly were proactive and took a nuke with her to pay an Exalted diplomatic visit to the Winter/Summer Court/Fomor lands, we all know how that's gonna end.

Lotta radioactive (and DEAD) fae/fomor. Including Mab and Titania.



Yeah, but we've seen on screen which is more intense. It's not the city block buster, I'll tell you that much. A nuke has a larger effect than the Eye of Balor (kinda sad to say), but it also is a whole lot more powerful and intense. A nuke's aftereffects dont get washed away from like 60 seconds of a rainstorm, and a nuke also doesn't leave any survivors in the same way the Eye of Balor was surprisingly happy to spare anything that wasn't part of the Chicago architectural landscape. More people survived multiple firings of the Eye than, I can assure you, would've survived a Davy Crockett going off anywhere close by.
uh I mean ethiniu isn't THE FOMORIANS shes a single being. Like a human with good enough guns could fairly reliably kill most types of fomori.
 
Shame she seems to have plenty of willpower to resist our social here, but none to avoid mindwhammy.
 
Shame she seems to have plenty of willpower to resist our social here, but none to avoid mindwhammy.
Willpower is useful, but a lot of these things require not just willpower, but actual magical defenses in order to block them out.
A supernatural who is running around with an AoE aura that deals, say, -3DC to the rolls of opposing mortals/women/blondes/insert category will simply roll her without even noticing.
 
Why not just "refuse to explain unless she promises not to tell the government, tell the truth if she does so?"
Eiko isn't exactly a major investment so far, so if Murphy lies, then fine, she isn't getting invited along next time, but the probability anything happens as a consequence is still minuscle. If she says no, that's fine too, Murphy isn't that important to us either, even if legitimacy is nice to have.
Because even if she doesnt tell the government, she cant keep from being interrogated by a Fae noble with glamor, a Whampire or a kueijin with Obligation 3 or just a Blampire with standard mindwhammy.
Or even a mortal roofing her with an alchemical truth drug.

And there are multiple people's lives at risk:
"So it is, so you shall pass into the long sleep of mortalkind." She rolls the tip of her tongue, into a soft melody, meaningless words, that have all the meaning in the world. That sort of music isn't Japanese at all it is Ainu the people to whom the dread lord of the Night Realm was once the fair and honorable judge of the dead. Eiko has allies, not just among the shen, but also among those mortals closest to whatever might remain of Emma-O's heart and they are working to restore him.
There is an entire preexisting conspiracy of mortals and spirits here.
The more people know, the higher the risks for everyone involved, not just Eiko.

Remember, we just learned this lesson with Tuzi.
She got interrogated for what we talked about at the meeting because we chose to invite her in despite her having no need to be there at the time.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Acolyte on Mar 26, 2023 at 8:00 PM, finished with 111 posts and 26 votes.

  • [X] Promise to explain to Murphy why you let Lady Eiko live
    -[X] Tell the truth
    [X] Plan Kept in the Dark and Fed on Bullshit
    -[X] Explain some of the reasoning involved in why you want to keep this secret.
    -[X] [Stunt] Molly takes a breath and looks Murphy in the eyes, her full attention on her and the seriousness of the issue.
    —[X] "I'm not doing this to show off, or playing fast and loose with the law or basic decency for my own convenience" she says in a voice full of quiet confidence. "I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with this stuff from your end, when so much of the supernatural world looks down on mortals and treats them like mushrooms."
    —[X] With something almost like a sharp grin, she continues "I've been in the thick of it for essentially no time at all and already I'm impressed by the way you haven't shot someone for giving one 'beyond mortal ken' too many"
    —[X] "So I realize how big a request it is when I ask you to trust me here. No plan survives contact with the enemy, and the reason I want to avoid the details isn't because I don't trust you or respect your position. It's because something big just changed and just speaking about it could ruin things."
    —[X] Swallowing the impulse to conceal weakness, Molly plows forward "I'm going to ask that you let this go, for now, because I don't know precisely who or how many people it will be the difference between life and worse than death for yet. Just that it's more than one and I haven't had time to figure out where all the wrong ears are or how loud of a whisper would set them off"
    [X] Refuse to explain (Will damage your relationship with Murphy)
    [X] Loose lips sink ships
    -[X] Promise to explain to Murphy why you let Lady Eiko live, but only after we determine that enough time has passed, and events sufficiently unfolded, that the information we reveal to her, cannot be used to our detriment by those she wishes to share it with.
    [X] Refuse to explain (Will damage your relationship with Murphy)
    -[x]If you want to go back and kill her I am not going to take any action to stop you. You are a free agent after all. Maybe you could even arrest her if you kept her in a cage of wood.
 
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