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General Exalted Thread

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Quantumboost said:
To play devil's advocate a bit, there is something to be said for making it easier for those who don't have RPG instincts finely honed over a lifetime of ascetic training to identify when bad GMing is happening. Especially for someone who's the GM in question and has only half a clue what they're doing.

I can much more easily see someone genuinely honestly thinking "maybe requiring an activation roll on a Charm that does X would be a good idea" out of sheer naivete, and thereby accidentally screwing over the Charm, than genuinely honestly thinking "maybe I should let this facemurder effect bypass arbitrary defenses".
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It probably won't be a facemurder effect unless you're in actively uttershit GM land. It will just be something minor, possibly even with no mechanical effects.

But while it is good to deal with that, doing it in a charm is the wrong place to do it. Dealing with OOC problems IC is a terrible idea, and trying to put things like that in the design by the developers is even worse.
 
notthepenguins said:
I assume he was referencing IPP, which does (though it's a demon prince, not SWL).

So... Phoenix Renewal Tactic is a completely pointless Charm? Going "the developers put in a Charm to solve a problem that doesn't occur" is a defense, I guess, but it's not a very compelling one.
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I'm totally on board with the idea that 3E contains bad charms, or charms that should be removed, or charms that are pointless, etc. (See also: Craft.)

C.o.S.a.R said:
City State destroying charm is a "bad stuff stimply happens charm", so again, you're really not being honest here.
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No, I see bringing up that Lore charm as actually pretty disingenuous on your part. It's a crappy charm that I want to kill with fire but it's just not an example of the thing we were talking about and wouldn't have been resisted by IPP in 2E.

Similarly, in a discussion about a homebrew charm and how problematic it is, saying that it's homebrew isn't exactly a defense. At least, not a one that actually deals with the complaint: it's more of a deflection because you don't appear to wish to actually answer the complaint raised.
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What do you think is the complaint?

"Omicron, your effect is too strong and is too hard to resist" is something I find perfectly reasonable.

"lol 3E sucks because they just got rid of the Shaping keyword but left in all of the deprotagonizing effects" is not, especially if it's justified by reference to homebrew.

As for the fact that it is not "simply happens" that's true of most things. Shun the Similing lady doesn't simply happen, and has means to mitigate it. The issue is that the means are pathetically weak, and the effect is ridiculously strong. Which is the case here, almost exactly.
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That's a perfectly legitimate criticism of his homebrew!
 
Kuciwalker said:
No, I see bringing up that Lore charm as actually pretty disingenuous on your part. It's a crappy charm that I want to kill with fire but it's just not an example of the thing we were talking about and wouldn't have been resisted by IPP in 2E.
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The complaint was that there were effects in 3ed that would screw you over without recourse. Shaping effects were the largest example of that in 2ed(because that's where they were sorted), but they are not the entirety of the subject.

Kuciwalker said:
What do you think is the complaint?

"Omicron, your effect is too strong and is too hard to resist" is something I find perfectly reasonable.

"lol 3E sucks because they just got rid of the Shaping keyword but left in all of the deprotagonizing effects" is not, especially if it's justified by reference to homebrew.

That's a perfectly legitimate criticism of his homebrew!
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The specific complaint was, I believe, directed as your statement that removing shaping fixed the problem, rather than removing the label a problem used.
 
C.o.S.a.R said:
The complaint was that there were effects in 3ed that would screw you over without recourse. Shaping effects were the largest example of that in 2ed(because that's where they were sorted), but they are not the entirety of the subject.
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I think we are going in circles now. I just don't see this as reasonably connected to the issue. And I actually agree with you that the Charm in question is terrible.

The specific complaint was, I believe, directed as your statement that removing shaping fixed the problem, rather than removing the label a problem used.
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What I actually said was: "Second: the Shaping keyword and Shaping defenses are no longer a thing. In fact 3E is deliberately trying to avoid the sort of "X no-sells Y to defend against Y no-selling Z" stuff - there is a lot less no-selling overall."

I don't think it is particularly fair to read that as "removing shaping (the keyword) fixed the problem".
 
Kuciwalker said:
What I actually said was: "Second: the Shaping keyword and Shaping defenses are no longer a thing. In fact 3E is deliberately trying to avoid the sort of "X no-sells Y to defend against Y no-selling Z" stuff - there is a lot less no-selling overall."
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Uh... judging by the presence of those posted corebook Integrity Charms that seem to explicitly be replacements for the old-style Shaping defenses (except they don't use the keyword instead of vague descriptors), the anticipated need of those Charms to stop the things they defend against (else such charms would not be required and need not be published) and the apparent willingness of people to write homebrew fuck-you not-Shaping effects that require not-Shaping defenses to stop, I don't think this appears to be working very well.
 
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The Integrity Charm use was discussed in OP. One of the Devs pointed to one of the Fair Folk charms as what it defends against, unfortunately, I don't really remember it, but basically it defends or is supposed to defend against warping effects and psyke effects in the enemy charms.
 
...so to change topics a bit, I was recently reading the 2E sourcebook for Yu-shan. Specifcally, the part about how the Arcane Fate came to be when the Sids broke the Mask to hide the evidence of the Usurpation and their manhandling of Lytek. Just before that I was reading about that rogue Sidreal from the 3E book, Raken Thulio. Since he is all about fucking Heaven over and is one of the Oldest of the Chosen (there are some implications he was around for the battle against the Yozi's, and if not that he's still really old), is there a way to well...reveal the Sidreal's crimes and get rid of the Arcane Fate to well 'prove' the crime? Everybody knew the Sidereal did it but their mucking around with the loom of fate meant that nobody could prove it. Is that possible?

Yes I don't know much about Sids and the Arcande Fate, or the loom.
 
Bel said:
...so to change topics a bit, I was recently reading the 2E sourcebook for Yu-shan. Specifcally, the part about how the Arcane Fate came to be when the Sids broke the Mask to hide the evidence of the Usurpation and their manhandling of Lytek. Just before that I was reading about that rogue Sidreal from the 3E book, Raken Thulio. Since he is all about fucking Heaven over and is one of the Oldest of the Chosen (there are some implications he was around for the battle against the Yozi's, and if not that he's still really old), is there a way to well...reveal the Sidreal's crimes and get rid of the Arcane Fate to well 'prove' the crime? Everybody knew the Sidereal did it but their mucking around with the loom of fate meant that nobody could prove it. Is that possible?

Yes I don't know much about Sids and the Arcande Fate, or the loom.
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Given the themes of Exalted, it would probably involve breaking something else.
But, in theory, I guess you could do that.
 
Bel said:
And they better be really danm good security guards since Raken is a Elder Sidreal who is specifically totally outside of fate (he tore his thread from the loom).
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When they said they needed access to the Loom, I'd imagine it's not something you can just go there for 5 minutes and be done. We're probably talking a significant amount of time, as well as some sort of ritual. Assuming that you know what you need to do going in, rather than needing to study things first.
 
You know what happens if you "prove" the Fivefold Fellowship manhandled Lytek and interfered with his duties? Which is, as far as I'm aware, the only crime the Usurpation involved under heavenly law, since it was otherwise a mortal matter and Exalts kill each other all the time.

What happens is pretty much nothing, because Lytek is replaceable and the Fivefold Fellowship is not. He'll wrangle a few political favours out of people by whipping up an uncooperative kerfuffle of gods looking for a legitimate excuse to protest and put pressure on the Sidereals, but it's not like anyone's going to Heaven Jail over it. The Sidereals don't give a shit about Lytek's handling of his purview, since their Exaltations are directly handled by the Maidens and there haven't been any Solars for literal ages, so what's he going to do, not clean Lunar Exaltations and let the main threat to Sidereals get steadily dumber and crazier?

The only Sidereals alive today who were even involved in the whole matter are monsters like Chejop Kejak, and Lytek would be better-advised to sit on the evidence himself than try to take him on, lest he be transferred into working as the god of quack quack quack. Hell, under 2e canon it seems more likely that Lytek would come down with a sudden case of becoming a starmetal paperweight.

I don't really buy the idea that the Sidereals broke the Loom to hide evidence that they roughed up a god, even a then-relatively-high-ranking Celestial. It seems rather more likely to have been part of making the Jade Prison or witnessing the Visions of Gold and Bronze and Darkness, or something.
 
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Revlid said:
I don't really buy the idea that the Sidereals broke the Loom to hide evidence that they roughed up a god, even a then-relatively-high-ranking Celestial. It seems rather more likely to have been part of making the Jade Prison or witnessing the Visions of Gold and Bronze and Darkness, or something.
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I always thought they did it to hide their existence from the Dragon-Bloods. Because otherwise they feared the Terrestrials would go, "We just got rid of that one batch of Celestials who were lording us over, and we chased that second batch out to the corners of the world... Why are we cool with that third batch that's looking down on us from Heaven? I don't like that. Get the daiklaves, Joe."
 
Omicron said:
You may be right. Still, I think I'll keep it; I like the idea of redirecting attacks too much, and the style already has a more straightforward defense power, so I wanted a Clash somehow.
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Maybe you could cut the last two parts, leaving to the Exalted only the need to win the clash and then using the Clash roll to determinate who you can hit?
 
Honestly, I've always assumed that they broke the Mask - the constellation that deals with identity - in order to make all the just-released Solar Exaltations think that the only existing humans in Creation were inside the Jade Prison. Then they just slammed the metaphorical door closed behind them as they all rushed in to Exalt what they thought were the only valid Exaltation candidates alive.
 
This is pretty much personal interpretation, but I always thought the Breaking of the Mask was meant to protect several things, and it ended up working too well. The Jade Prison was one, and the Sidereals in general. Less from Divine Censure (though we can agree that gods can make life difficult for Sids, to varying degrees at a given table).

Anyway- basically they broke the Mask, and in so doing, succeeded too well, leading to Arcane Fate as we know it.
 
Aleph said:
in order to make all the just-released Solar Exaltations think that the only existing humans in Creation were inside the Jade Prison.
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You know, your wording made me image an alternate universe in which the Exaltation exalted the whole Jade Prison.

Things went pretty confusing after that. Mostly because i cannot image what would happen after, which clearly means that Creation immediately turned into Wyld stuff.
 
That theory actually works very well. And you can still have the raid on Lytek so that they could get the proper tools/notes. to trick the Solar Exaltations like that.
It doesn't change anything about the setting, but it's pretty neat.
 
Giygas said:
You know, your wording made me image an alternate universe in which the Exaltation exalted the whole Jade Prison.

Things went pretty confusing after that. Mostly because i cannot image what would happen after, which clearly means that Creation immediately turned into Wyld stuff.
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"Nice going Chejop" one of the younger Sidereal snorted as they stared at 300 times Solar Exalted Jade Prison, reshaped into the form of a gigantic humanoid, strode through Yu-Shen. "This turned out wonderfully."

The leader of the vision of bronze twitched slightly.
 
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