General Exalted Thread

[Chehrazad]

Honestly, given how fucking atrocious the Exalted 3e performance vis a vis release dates have been compared to basically everything Onyx Path has done, I think it's entirely unfair to blame general Onyx Path stuff for how poorly they've done things. The nWoD people have no problems anywhere near what this has. In fact, I may strongly dislike Demon, but I can't fault their development cycle given how open they were about it.

No, the problems must be laid on the Exalted 3e devs. One might even strongly suspect that the release date given in the Kickstarter was pure fantasy, a made-up number that at best was wildly optimistic and in practice was willfully false.

Plus, I would also note that a suspicious number of freelancers and associates who were previously associated with the project have gone very quiet or just walked away. Speaking from my experience in IRL work, when a project has a high drop-out rate... well, even if management are saying everything's just rosy, if you've got a high staff attrition rate there's something rotten in the state of Denmark.

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I absolutely agree with you. NWoD has been very open with their development in general, Dark Eras and Mage have taken a fuck-tonne of time, but they've been very open with the content within these books. However Ex3rd has been closed off between walls of NDAs and stupidity from the devs, the conditions for fans have been shit, and considering what I've heard, it's probably been shit for freelancers and associates.

Demon, Mage, Dark Eras, Werewolf, Vampire, even fucking Sardonyx have been very open with their development- even fucking Beast has been open with development.

And no matter my feelings about parts of 2e, I generally cannot fault them for their development.

On that account, they've done well at least.

But fuck Third's development.

 

[greensun]

Plus, I would also note that a suspicious number of freelancers and associates who were previously associated with the project have gone very quiet or just walked away. Speaking from my experience in IRL work, when a project has a high drop-out rate... well, even if management are saying everything's just rosy, if you've got a high staff attrition rate there's something rotten in the state of Denmark.

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Holy fuck that is never a good sign. This is especially if its free-lancers jumping ship; if the game design guys are similar to the freelance construction workers I've had the pleasure (and I'm not being sarcastic, those guys can be a load of fun) of working with, then the big reason why they're jumping ship is either because they're bosses are overbearing and too demanding and/or they aren't getting paid.

 

[Revlid]

So, sorry to interupt the conversation, but I (poorly) wrote up a custom 1CD to handle my Lack of Roads problem, and I though I would share it

Spoiler: Sadakeeda, The Brass Caterpillars, Demon of the First Circle.

The basalt roads of Jacint criss-cross the many layer of Malfeas, forming the backbone that connects the demon city. However, these roads are never connected to each other, or the plates, in ways that are comprehensible to mortals or the less serfs of the city. Created in order to connect the many paths of Jacint, the Sadakeeda have found a home among all the demon city, and are used to carve paths for trade, and for war. Octavian is know to keep a stable of the creatures, bred to be especially voracious, for use as siege engines, as they simply eat their way through fortification, while leaving a path for his army to follow.

Each Sadakeeda appears as a massive caterpillar, the size of a Yeddim, with it's segmented shell made of a golden brass alloy; though the shine of the shell is rarely visible, due to the nature of the beast. As it crawls along the plates of Malfeas, it consumes all in front of it, via it's massive gaping maw, lined with many spinning circles of teeth. Inside the worm, a massive vat of vitriol and fire breaks down all the consumed materials in to a dark bituminous pitch, save stones, which are broken down into a mix of gravel and sand. This mix is extruded out between the massive golden plates, staining a shining creature black and slimy, and fills the trench the Caterpillar leaves behind. Over the next several hours, this slime hardens to a smooth, black rock-like structure, similar to the basalt roads of Jacint, though much softer, but still convenient to travel upon.

Due to it's lack of eyes, Sadakeeda will only travel travel in strait lines, consuming all within their path. When used in the demon city, care must be taken be taken to ensure that they don't eat their way through anything of value.

Only two things redirect or stop a hungry Sadakeeda. Should the Brass Caterpillars encounder a stream of flowing water, it will stop upon the slightest touch, for the waters of creation and Kimbery are toxic to the Sadakeeda. Should it be tricked into consuming more than a bucket full of water, it enters a form of torpor, freezing in place until it is fed at least a buckets worth of burning coals, or burning charcoals. The other thing that can redirect the worm is the scent of it's favorite food, coal. Should the Brass Caterpillar scent coal nearby, it will divert it's path to eat all of the black rock that it can fit into it's mouth.

Given enough coal to eat, The Brass Caterpillars will enter a form of cocoon, wrapping itself in a stone shell, which will them grow red hot from within. After 1 month spend in this form, the shell will shatter open, revealing a collection of smaller Brass Caterpillars, each which set out on their own path.

A Brass Caterpillar can escape into creation whenever a man dies of thirst or starvation, while traveling down a road.

Summoning: Sadakeeda are summoned to carve paths throughout creation, though they are of less use in some areas, due to the amount of water. Sorcerers who summon the worms will mark the path they wish the Sadakeeda to follow with clusters of burning coals, guiding down a path not to steep for human travel, and away from rivers, puddles, and springs that might stall the worm. They have been used as siege weapons as well, eating their way through the walls of castles and cities.

Motivation: To satiate it's endless hunger.

Attributes: Strength: 12 Dexterity: 2 Stamina: 12 Charisma: 1 Manipulation: 1 Appearance: 4 (2 when coated with pitch) Perception: 1 Intelligence: 2 Wits: 3
Virtues: Compassion 2, Conviction 5, Temperance 1, Valor 4
Abilities: Athletics 5, Awareness 2(+3 Smelling), Craft (Earth) 1 (+3 Earthworks), Integrity 3, Investigation 1, Martial Arts 2 (+3 Bite), Melee 3, Occult 1, Presence 2, Resistance 5 (+2 Endure Hardship), Survival 2

Charms:
AFFINITY (ELEMENT) CONTROL – The Sadakeeda may control the bituminous pitch it extrudes
BREAD OF WEAK SPIRIT – The Sadakeeda loves the taste of weaker gods.
DOMAIN MANIPULATION SCENARIO – The Sadakeeda can twist the roadway it leaves behind.
ESSENCE BITE --- The burning tar that covers the Sadakeeda is unpleasant to touch.

Materialize—Costs 60 motes
Ox body Technique x3​

Tracking – May only track coal, or a bound location.
Landscape Travel --- The Sadakeeda can crawl across almost any surface, or even up walls.

First (Ability) Excellency—Athletics, Craft, Resistance​

Third (Ability) Excellency—Athletics, Craft, Resistance

Join Battle: 5
Attacks:
Bite: Speed 5, Accuracy 7, Damage 8L, Parry DV 0
Trample: Speed 3, Accuracy 5, Damaged 12L
Soak: 18B/14L (Malfean Brass Plates +12B/+8L)

HL: -0x2/-1x3/-2x3/-4x3/I

Willpower: 9 Essence: 3 Essence Pool: 70

Other Notes: The Sadakeeda moves at rate of about 2 mph while traveling overland, leaving behind a trail of asphalt approximately 3 yards wide, level with the surrounding terrain.

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Oh dear lord, if you summon them to make roads in a rainy country you'll need to hire servants to stand over each worm with umbrellas.

That's adorable.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

and/or they aren't getting paid.

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Nobody gets paid a cent until the book they've worked on is published, iirc.

 

[The Laurent]

Nobody gets paid a cent until the book they've worked on is published, iirc.

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Huh, which would make the delay even more frustrating. Waiting years and years and years for a payout (because you know some of these people have done their part of it and have been sitting on their hands as every deadline flew by, just waiting for everyone else to catch up.)

 

[Bel]

The Laurent: Why do you think that there are like 3 books that just need WW sign off that are just waiting for the core book to finish? IIRC Arms of the Chosen, the Realm and Dragon Blooded are all but finished and have been all but finished for months.

 

[Shyft]

Creation is full of powers and riches- it's just not always in the hands of player-characters. This is difficult to communicate effectively.

'Fetch Quests' and Required Minimum Traits to take an action are often poorly handled. Without careful planning, they add a tax of on-screen time to the detriment of other ongoing plots. Ex. The artificer trying to make something while the rest of the circle is doing something else. This problem applies to any tangential plot, though.

Intent/Mission Statement:
- Create a structure for players to understand in-setting risk and reward.
- Create a structure to help STs communicate setting traits, as well as generate consequences
- Provide guidelines as to how the narratives of Creation work.
- Other points pending.

Note: This is not a fully realized set of mechanics. As you can see, some things are still in [brackets]. It is a proof of concept and I'm hoping for discussion and suggestions.

New Game Concept: Means

Whenever a character attempts an Action, usually a large-scale dramatic action, they must first check to see if they have the Means. The Means, assets, skills or potential to do something is a concrete quality. They permit actions- and in some cases create entirely new ones.

A character has the Means to do things via Charms, Backgrounds, Sorcery and other traits. Not all Actions require Means, and Means should only come up when attempting particularly dramatic feats.

As a Trait, Means can be abstracted on a 5-dot scale, similar to Hazard Ratings as detailed in the 2nd edition core rules.

X - No Means: The character only needs their wit and individual prowess to take action.
* - Inconsequential Means: Out of pocket expenses, simple bribery, Contacts, Connections and minor thaumturgical works.
** - Basic Means: Granted by mundane backgrounds such as Backing, Influence, Resources, etc. Modestly potent talismans or Minor Blessings.
*** - Magical Means: Modest Blessings from spirits, demon or elemental labor, Magical Backgrounds, Charms, Artifacts, and Emerald Circle Sorcery.
**** - Potent Means: Powerful Charms, bound spirit servants, Sapphire Circle Sorcery.
***** Legendary Means: Aide from High-ranking Celestial Gods, Blessings of the Incarnae, Powerful 2nd circle Demons and 3rd Circle advisors. Adamant Circle Sorcery.

Getting the Means

Means 1-3 are assumed to be available in Creation at almost any time. This includes Emerald Circle Sorcery, which I will touch on later. The point of this system is not to demand players pay taxes on time or advancement. Means 4-5 are the domain of more involved actions, but I'm still working on how to model them effectively.

When a character attempts to do something that requires a Means, they check first if they satisfy that demand themselves. If they do, they may take action immediately. (Side note: This is an abstraction for the purposes of this post- assume that it's a standard dramatic action for the moment).

The Player and Storyteller should also work together, assessing what they have available as Means.

If a character does not have the Means to do something, the Storyteller informs them that the Means to do what they want are available in wider Creation. Usually near-by in some fashion, accounting for the needs of the plot like travel times and the like.

As an example, Wind-Swept Feather is trying to raise an army. Her Storyteller says she needs Means 2 (A mundane trait like Resources 4) to hire soldiers, and she doesn't have enough. Instead of forcing her to delay her project, the Storyteller informs her that she can take out a loan with the local lord, or hire cheaper mercenaries from an unreliable source. These can be rolled or unrolled Dramatic Actions, and their intent is to firmly define that the Means are available, and that there is a consequence in picking one.

Resolving the Consequences: Intrigue

Intrigue is a working name for another new trait, which governs how important, novel or otherwise noteworthy something is. This is intended to apply to numerous existing concepts like workshop, manse and artifact construction.

X - No Intrigue: Unless it's something like personal rivalry, blatant Anathema worship or the alien whims of spirits, no one is going to bat an eye about the Means.
* - Least Intrigue: Little more than tavern gossip or clucking housewives. Small-town news. A mortal hero might peek in.
** - Modest Intrigue: Word reaches local authority or powers such as the most minor of nobility, criminal midbosses, or petty spirits. An experienced godblood or novice Terrestrial Exalt and their retinue might investigate.

*** - Noteworthy Intrigue: Word can reach the top of local government. News will radiate outwards towards other towns and villages for more than a hundred miles. A Sworn Brotherhood might send a few of their lackeys to report back. The Wyld Hunt sends an investigator, if they can spare one and they see evidence of Anathema.

**** - Pressing Intrigue : Word can reach the powerful individuals and courts throughout an entire nation.

***** - [Word] Intruige: Whatever was done has driven several nations to act- if only to confirm what happened. The Realm and other great empires would take action to learn more, while the agents of Heaven, Malfeas and the Underworld watch carefully.

Like Means, Intrigue is on a 5-dot scale, and it should be evaluated contextually. Invoking 5-dot means is not always going to be 5-dot intrigue. (It's a safe bet though). Intrigue is meant to be a measure of how big a deal something can be, and to give a framework of what happens as events progress.

In the previous example, the combined feat of taking a loan out to hire an army would have been Intrigue 2, while the mercenaries would have been Intrigue 3. Having been informed, Wind-Swept Feather decides to take the loan. Unfortunately, the dot ratings here cannot be exhaustive, so I am aiming to provide examples of possible reactions to this 2-dot intrigue.

- Rival lords notice the army building up and step up their own military spending in response
- Neighboring lands seek to ally with the new rising power in the region
- The lord of the lands and superior to the one who loaned the money wants to know why his tithe was not delivered in a timely manner

Intrigue Elsewhere

As mentioned, the intrigue ratings are not comprehensive, so for ease of reading, I wanted to list out some examples where Intrigue is assigned:

Crafting an Artifact usually generates [Rating +2] Intrigue, to a maximum of 5. This represents the paper trail and magical impact of acquiring rare components, exchanging godly favors and other necessary preparation.

Constructing a Master's Workshop and any form of geomantic engineering is considered to have a minimum of Intrigue 3, representing the magical impact upon the region in both mortal and spiritual spheres.

Marching an army out of a city has a variable intrigue based on context, but at minimum has Intrigue of 2. Rumors of troop movements fill every bar and inn throughout Creation.

Blatant displays of supernatural prowess generates Intrigue as well. A Dragon-blooded might not rate more than 3 dots after several wild stunts and building a reputation in the local area. Celestial Exalted living openly as god-kings or Chosen of the Sun generate a minimum 3-dot intrigue at whatever interval seems appropriate.

A Special Note on Sorcery

Unless a Sorcerer is being extremely circumspect, their very existence generate Intruige, equal to that of their Circle. This is intended as diegetic information- everyone in-setting who bothers to pay attention to such things and can readily access 3-dot intrigue knows about a local sorcerer. They're strange, exotic people and that makes them easy to follow.

Sorcerers are also easily followed because they are useful. When one is suddenly hired for an urgent project, heads turn. Representing and articulating that is the intent of Intrigue as a mechanic.

In a future update to this concept, Sorcery is one of the Means that enables specific magical projects. If someone wants to do something, and they require sorcerous aide to do it, they either must become a sorcerer, already be one, or hire a local one.

Jazzing it up

So I've given the basic idea of Intrigue and how it scales. It's rough. If you want to spice things up, here are some contextual suggestions:

As mentioned with Wind-Swept Feather's examples, she was given a choice between two fairly transparent options. An alternative, is that the Storyteller can ask questions like 'how willing are you to cut corners- do you need your troops fast, or can you wait?' If Feather wanted to rush, the ST could have offered a 4-dot option, with commensurate consequences.

Asking those questions allows the Storyteller to raise or lower the intrigue as appropriate- and Players are of course allowed to leverage their powers and stunt accordingly to adjust things in their favor.

Personal Powers

If a character or their circle has the appropriate Means on their sheet, any intrigue generated by their action is 2 dots lower, to a minimum of zero. Common sense should be applied where appropriate- an Adamant Circle Sorcerer might be attempting a Terrestrial-tier project, so unless their mastery of sorcery is publicly known, they probably are only generating Intrigue 3. If they're a household name and national hero, probably Intrigue 5.

And that is my draft of Means, Intrigue and a whole bunch of unrelated blather. I'm happy to hear suggestions and I hope you enjoy!

 

[Imrix]

The Laurent: Why do you think that there are like 3 books that just need WW sign off that are just waiting for the core book to finish? IIRC Arms of the Chosen, the Realm and Dragon Blooded are all but finished and have been all but finished for months.

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I can field this one; the devs want to put 3e out as a cohesive line and avoid the common problem of RPG's, where the nature of the game (both mechanically and thematically) changes over the course of its production run. For example, the core Solar set in 2e is pretty functional because successive writers used it as a benchmark, but the best-written Charmsets are probably Alchemicals and pre-2.5 Infernals, because they were written late in the line by people who'd had time to get comfortable with the mechanical toolbox on offer. Putting multiple books together before releasing any of them allows the devs to chart out where the game is going ahead of time.

This is ah, cold comfort to those of us who disagree with where it's going.

 

[Aaron Peori]

Nobody gets paid a cent until the book they've worked on is published, iirc.

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Wow. If we tried to pull that, we'd never be able to hire freelance again.

Contracts between companies and creatives almost always contain stipulations on when the freelancers have to be paid. Basically it boils down to: if the freelancer delivered their product on time and within the terms then fuck you, pay them. Your project falls through? Fuck you, pay them. There are very specific sections dealing with failure to deliver, when payment is expected and so on.

If this kind of deal is the standard in rpg design no wonder they can't get any creative talent involved who aren't ascended fanboys and have to rely on people will to steal random deviantart.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

Not the quotes I was thinking of, but this page has links to some quotes regarding money issues.

 

[Sucal]

This is ah, cold comfort to those of us who disagree with where it's going.

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You can say that thrice!

It sounds like a good idea theoretically at least if you haven't taken money upfront with a promise you had a plan and had already been working on it for a year. The problem with having four books ready to shove out at once is that you lose the ability to adapt to the complaints of your customers, when they dislike systems or what not.

Of course, that would involve not having Holden in charge/in PR and actually considering removing legacy code that has been known as an issue for almost ten years.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

Honestly, given how fucking atrocious the Exalted 3e performance vis a vis release dates have been compared to basically everything Onyx Path has done, I think it's entirely unfair to blame general Onyx Path stuff for how poorly they've done things. The nWoD people have no problems anywhere near what this has. In fact, I may strongly dislike Demon, but I can't fault their development cycle given how open they were about it.

No, the problems must be laid on the Exalted 3e devs. One might even strongly suspect that the release date given in the Kickstarter was pure fantasy, a made-up number that at best was wildly optimistic and in practice was willfully false.

Plus, I would also note that a suspicious number of freelancers and associates who were previously associated with the project have gone very quiet or just walked away. Speaking from my experience in IRL work, when a project has a high drop-out rate... well, even if management are saying everything's just rosy, if you've got a high staff attrition rate there's something rotten in the state of Denmark.

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If you've seen the circulating list of requirements for becoming an Ex3E freelancer, I'm surprised they have a drop-out rate to speak of because you'd have to be a very dedicated fan to get in. Like, that's the kind of stuff you ask during an interview for a job that pays twenty times as much as freelancing.

 

[EarthScorpion]

If you've seen the circulating list of requirements for becoming an Ex3E freelancer, I'm surprised they have a drop-out rate to speak of because you'd have to be a very dedicated fan to get in. Like, that's the kind of stuff you ask during an interview for a job that pays twenty times as much as freelancing.

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Yes, I've seen that list. Anyone who gets through that certainly has demonstrated that dedication - which makes the high number of freelancers who've vanished or walked away even more concerning.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

Yes, I've seen that list. Anyone who gets through that certainly has demonstrated that dedication - which makes the high number of freelancers who've vanished or walked away even more concerning.

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There is something incredibly meta about Exalted 3E basically being a litany of bad decisions by an unaccountable, arrogant leadership when that's how things in Exalted tend to catch on fire and explode.

 

[landcollector]

There is something incredibly meta about Exalted 3E basically being a litany of bad decisions by an unaccountable, arrogant leadership when that's how things in Exalted tend to catch on fire and explode.

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When summarized like that, it's fascinating in a way.

 

[Cosar]

Yes, I've seen that list. Anyone who gets through that certainly has demonstrated that dedication - which makes the high number of freelancers who've vanished or walked away even more concerning.

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Who left? I know plauge of hats and Stephenls did, but did more people leave?

 

[Prent]

Yes, I've seen that list. Anyone who gets through that certainly has demonstrated that dedication - which makes the high number of freelancers who've vanished or walked away even more concerning.

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Link? I was looking but I can't find it.

 

[Sucal]

Link? I was looking but I can't find it.

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I'm not sure they'd even be allowed to post it.

 

[Omicron]

Huh, which would make the delay even more frustrating. Waiting years and years and years for a payout (because you know some of these people have done their part of it and have been sitting on their hands as every deadline flew by, just waiting for everyone else to catch up.)

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Partly it's a self-reinforcing feedback. Because nobody gets paid until the end, everyone else has some other way of getting paid. And I don't mean, like, part-time; when you wait even a single year for the meager pay-off of being a freelancer in an RPG, that doesn't even track on your budget. You need an otherwise normal life with employment and all.

Which makes writing the Ex3 core, rather than "something I do part-time," more like something you dedicate a little bit of your time to in a day, once all the more-immediate stuff like your actual job, college work or both (lots of 'students with a job' there), and you have a little time. This makes producing the book even slower, which in turns makes the payoff even more distant, which in turn makes working on the book an even more tertiary concern...

If this kind of deal is the standard in rpg design no wonder they can't get any creative talent involved who aren't ascended fanboys and have to rely on people will to steal random deviantart.

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Like all things RPG it's hard to call the 'standard' because you have a couple of giants towering in the distance and there's no doubt Wizards of the Coast has different hiring and work practices; but I have no doubt it's not uncommon among smaller publishers. If you just read what happened to Jenna Moran working with EOS it's terrifying and baffling at the same time.

 

[The Laurent]

Partly it's a self-reinforcing feedback. Because nobody gets paid until the end, everyone else has some other way of getting paid. And I don't mean, like, part-time; when you wait even a single year for the meager pay-off of being a freelancer in an RPG, that doesn't even track on your budget. You need an otherwise normal life with employment and all.

Which makes writing the Ex3 core, rather than "something I do part-time," more like something you dedicate a little bit of your time to in a day, once all the more-immediate stuff like your actual job, college work or both (lots of 'students with a job' there), and you have a little time. This makes producing the book even slower, which in turns makes the payoff even more distant, which in turn makes working on the book an even more tertiary concern...

Like all things RPG it's hard to call the 'standard' because you have a couple of giants towering in the distance and there's no doubt Wizards of the Coast has different hiring and work practices; but I have no doubt it's not uncommon among smaller publishers. If you just read what happened to Jenna Moran working with EOS it's terrifying and baffling at the same time.

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Dish?

 

[Omicron]

Dish?

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Essentially, after she worked for years on Chuubo's Magical Wish-Granting Engine, when the files were at last ready to print, her publisher just... disappeared. With the Kickstarter money. And I don't even mean 'yeah it's coming out aaaany day now,' I mean straight-up stopped talking to her or custommers. Eventually there was an anonymous donation for the printing of the books to start independently; otherwise there would be no printed Chuubo. As far as I know (been a while since I looked it up), Eos still has the money.

Also they had her move to China or something? I don't remember the details of that part, only that it started out like a pretty great move and then it was awful. I guess moving to a different continent at the behest of someone who just takes the money and runs will do that.

 

[Quantumboost]

I mean, that works for Solars, sure, but it's at least implied - if not outright stated (don't have my books handy to check, and I need to get to bed) - that Infernals don't have access to Summon Demon of the X Circle.

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Beings with Yozi Sorcerous Initiations don't have the specific spells Demon of the X Circle. They get similar-but-better spells for summoning the First and Second Circles (Slave-Spawn Summons and Fiend-Vassal Conscription), and they can summon but not bind Third Circles (All-Commanding Oversoul Beckoning).

(This also means that their versions of the spells can't be simply taught as-is to 'normal' Sorcerers, and vice versa.)

 

[Kaiya]

So, I mean, in the 'intended' use case of 'non-dawn Solar dips into one Martial Art for combat competence' the RAW work perfectly well. I was mostly trying to enable the guy who wants to be an Immaculate Grandmaster or something. My end goal wasn't really to make it easier per se (it was one of the ways I did it, but wasn't a goal in and of itself), but more to make the journey there less of a pain. Honestly the biggest thing for me was getting rid of repurchasing your five martial arts dots again, since it seems like just a big span (17 XP per style at favored rates) )where you're not really getting anything. At least, nothing big and flashy. I wanted to skip right into buying charms for the next style, after the requisite training montage to get the initiation merit, because buying up five dots of Ability over and over again seems like kind of a drag. The Martial Arts are definitely powerful, absolutely. Would it be better if it was still a four-dot merit?

Part of the reason I thought shaving some of the XP cost wouldn't break anything for multiple style users is that it seems like you get diminishing returns after a point on Martial Art investment, so making you pay the same 17 XP to start your sixth style because it plays to your concept seemed kind of pointless. A guy with four styles mastered seems like he's nowhere near twice as powerful as someone whose mastered two styles. Has your experience shown differently?




Heh, I already had one player ask me if he could spend his bonus points on his stats before assigning his 8/6/4 to get the most bang for his buck, so I figured some sort of statement on this section was necessary. :lol





Well, that's a shame. You've seen the brew in question, right? Mortal martial artists (who, explicitly, only ever get access to E1 charms) are just not something you feel belongs? Hidden groups of mortal Ebon Shadow practitioners seems like the kind of thing that's worth enabling in the setting without them all being required to be exalts or whatever.

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Mortal Martial Artists with charms are absolutely something I don't feel belongs, sorry. Hidden groups of Ebon Shadow practicioners can be done with just...assassin enclaves who all are mortal masters of Ebon Shadow. A hidden temple of extremely skilled stealth ninjas is plenty scary on its own. They don't need to have Charms to matter, and I really want to avoid the whole 'enlightened mortal martial artist' thing. That's a thing people genuinely like, but I don't like what the mindset that caused did, and I don't want mortals with combat Charms being a thing.

On the master of multiple MAs, while I've yet to actually play a master of multiple styles outside a test fight (which was also testing homebrewed Sidereal Charms, so I don't think it really counts), no I don't think someone who mastered five styles would be literally five times as powerful as someone with one, I don't think they're meant to scale up quite like that. But there's gonna be some crazy ass synergy. Particularly what I've noticed is that a Wood/Earth Dragon Styleist would be really crazy deadly. Tiger and Snake Style are also utterly terrifying when paired together, seriously, it's nuts. It doesn't break anything, but here's the thing. I actually like that being a master martial artist is genuinely difficult to do! When you meet a dude using Snake and Tiger Style in unison, you are dealing with a terrifyingly durable, dodgey motherfucker who has insane attack synergies. This is a guy who put some serious effort into becoming a terrifying murder machine. Those two MAs paired together would carry you through to the E5 endgame of a game, all the offense and defense you'd ever need. I like that it takes so much effort that is, by the end, so well rewarded. I also think that this is a really good reason for it to be so expensive. Like, seriously, I think mastering Tiger and Snake Style together is one of the strongest combat builds in the game.

And, as an awesome bonus? You don't actually need to spend regular xp on them! Solar XP can be spent on ability and MA dots, as well as MA Charms. So you're gaining more XP faster than I think you're really accounting for. Like, my Night Caste has 75xp right now, but he also has 56 Solar xp. When I start working on learning Ebon Shadow style (I haven't found my Sifu yet, @Omicron is planning something for it at some point), I am gaining two to four extra experience points every session that can go right to Ebon Shadow without sabotaging my Socialize or Stealth investments. That is gonna cut down on the 'raising ability dots' hardships a lot. And already has, actually, a lot of my Solar xp has been raising ability dots, while my normal xp is going towards new Charms.

Solar XP = best mechanic.

To both you and @Sanctaphrax, I guess if you're group is actually having issues with uneven chargen, making it pure XP is probably a good solution. I wouldn't recommend it for all groups, but it's a solid quickfix.

Do you know which part makes it boring?

Is it the removal of flavour text?

The attempts to reword the mechanics to make them clearer?

The actual mechanical changes?

Something else?

If it's the first, I'm not concerned. If it's the third, then I am.

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The first and second, and a bit of the third. While the attempt towards clarity isn't bad, I feel the way it was done and the removal of the flavor text results in an incredibly boring read. My issue with the mechanical changes is hard to describe. They basically seem different, not better to me, I guess? I didn't read it all the way through, so I don't think I can give a fair critique on those, which is why I say the first and second were my real problem. I couldn't stand to finish reading it, it was so dry and dull. I'm really sorry for how this is worded, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to phrase my objection without being overtly insulting, but I think the objection itself is automatically insulting.

For what it's worth, I do recognize that that it's a difference of preference, and that you guys clearly have a real audience you were going for, and I think you succeeded, it's a lot of work you put in, and from what I did read I think it works, it doesn't break anything, I don't think. I'm just not part of your target audience, so I think the effect you're going for succeeding reads as bad to me, because I value a wildly different way of writing Charms (Evocative and flowery, within limits, and I don't mind some lack of clarity, also within limits. If the Charm is entirely unclear, it's obviously a problem).

Oddly, this is really nice to hear. I guess lukewarm praise from a tough audience is more gratifying than strong praise from an easy one.

Thanks.

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I'm glad it wasn't as insulting as I feared!

 

[Imrix]

I don't think someone who mastered five styles would be literally five times as powerful as someone with one, I don't think they're meant to scale up quite like that. But there's gonna be some crazy ass synergy.

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Then it is absurd to ask them to pay for five four-dot merits and five Martial Arts abilities.

I actually like that being a master martial artist is genuinely difficult to do!

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You don't think that is encompassed in the experience cost of multiple Martial Arts styles worth of Charms?

Like, learning multiple entire Martial Arts styles is never going to be cheap. It's a lot of Charms. But why does it warrant an additional experience tax above and beyond what, say, a Brawl master or a Melee master pays to invest extra heavily in their toolbox? You've just said it's not about power, and crazy arse synergies will happen with any charmset. So what is it?

 

[Omicron]

Then it is absurd to ask them to pay for five four-dot merits and five Martial Arts abilities.
You don't think that is encompassed in the experience cost of multiple Martial Arts styles worth of Charms?

Like, learning multiple entire Martial Arts styles is never going to be cheap. It's a lot of Charms. But why does it warrant an additional experience tax above and beyond what, say, a Brawl master or a Melee master pays to invest extra heavily in their toolbox? You've just said it's not about power, and crazy arse synergies will happen with any charmset. So what is it?

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Martial Arts are self-contained yet cross-compatible toolkits that encompass more than one vector of combat. A character who invests 20 Charms in Brawl will have an extremely powerful offense, but will require investment in a second, different ability in order to obtain any defensive capability. A character who instes 10 Charms in Brawl and 10 Charms in Dodge is covering offense and one of his vectors of defense, and is paying two different abilities to do so. Similarly, a martial artist whose investment covers 20 Charms - about two complete styles - will cover both offense and defense, and pay two abilities for that price. He will in fact pay more (the Merit) because the right choices of MA can cover multiple vectors and styles of attack and defense (like say, both Parry and soak), and the new rules on Form Charms make it convenient to swap strategies mid-fight.