Actually, you can use weapons with the Grappling tag to land grapple gambits, and at least one of those has the Melee tag as well.
General Exalted Thread
- Location
- Virginia
Yes, but that's not where we are and given that Ex3 has the 25-ability spread it makes no sense to complain about the fact that they made the charm trees distinct.
Why not? In fact, even with the 25-ability spread, making charms repeat themselves in Melee/Brawl and Archery/Thrown would actually still be useful, if only because by doing so you'd probably cut the pagecount while giving both parties more options-a balanced Solar unarmed fighter or a reckless berserker meleeist would be easier to build and both are relevant, interesting concepts.
Well, I like my Charm trees distinct from each other, for one thing. I don't want my brawler to feel like a refluffed Meleeist. And I don't think I'm the only person who feels this way.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
I appreciate the notion that Abilities should have some distinct flavour and theme behind them even within the bounds of broad Solar themes. Sidereals aren't the only splat that traditionally have their Abilities be "about" something, after all.
Nevertheless, it does rankle a little bit when the Zenith's Performance Charms cover everything from passionate debates to elegant dancing to soothing lullabies to enchanting instruments to hate-filled rants, and the Twilight's Craft Charms cover everything from delicate glasswork to cyclopean architecture to unadorned daggers to decadent embroidery to soaring ship masts, and the Night's Larceny Charms cover everything from cheeky pick-pocketing to theatrical makeup to low-culture street-slang to insightful trap-handling, and the Eclipse's Bureaucracy Charms cover everything from sharp-tongued haggling to managing affairs of state to handling an army's supply lines to keeping a small business afloat to legal reform...
But if you want something other than ME HIT YOU WITH SHARP STICK NOW for Melee, that's too complex and specific, you need Martial Arts. Unlike every other Ability, your stunts for Melee and Brawl come pre-written. Melee can't be a master swordsman who wields two blades in dazzling katas, because that's Steel Devil Style. Melee can't be a master swordsman who strikes with a single blow that separates Heaven from Earth, because that's Single Point Shining into the Void Style. No, anyone who doesn't pick a Martial Art needs to stick to the "pragmatic fundamentals of the Melee Ability", as the Ex3 core puts it. I'm excited to buy Melee dots already.
And every other Martial Art that is released will further define all the things that Melee cannot be - which is not a new problem. It was the exact reason why I spent a game in 2e playing an awesome Western gunslinger with maybe two dots in Archery, because the Ability for firing guns wasn't what I needed to be a Western gunslinger. I needed the Martial Art with Western gunslinger Charms.
Trees like Righteous Devil Style are exciting and interesting and evocative, and the whole reason I made that character in the first place, so I sympathize with the dilemma faced by the writers - but at that point, I'd honestly suggest they go all-in and just outright replace Abilities and their Charms with Styles and their Charms. Righteous Devil Style 5 gives you five dice on any action suited to it, whether that's riding your horse after a criminal, acting all gruff and sheriff-y, burning someone alive, reloading your revolver double-quick, etc. Plus gives access to Righteous Devil Style Charms. Every character just has a bunch of Styles on their sheet, probably no more than three or so at chargen, plus base dots in Attributes to indicate whether they're a big ugly dumb Righteous Devil or a sneaky quick wimpy Righteous Devil. Extras all just get My Face To Your Fist Style. Every expansion book, ever, is just a long stack of Styles with Charms attached. The true CCG is achieved.
There, I've solved Exalted. You can put my cheque in the post.
Nevertheless, it does rankle a little bit when the Zenith's Performance Charms cover everything from passionate debates to elegant dancing to soothing lullabies to enchanting instruments to hate-filled rants, and the Twilight's Craft Charms cover everything from delicate glasswork to cyclopean architecture to unadorned daggers to decadent embroidery to soaring ship masts, and the Night's Larceny Charms cover everything from cheeky pick-pocketing to theatrical makeup to low-culture street-slang to insightful trap-handling, and the Eclipse's Bureaucracy Charms cover everything from sharp-tongued haggling to managing affairs of state to handling an army's supply lines to keeping a small business afloat to legal reform...
But if you want something other than ME HIT YOU WITH SHARP STICK NOW for Melee, that's too complex and specific, you need Martial Arts. Unlike every other Ability, your stunts for Melee and Brawl come pre-written. Melee can't be a master swordsman who wields two blades in dazzling katas, because that's Steel Devil Style. Melee can't be a master swordsman who strikes with a single blow that separates Heaven from Earth, because that's Single Point Shining into the Void Style. No, anyone who doesn't pick a Martial Art needs to stick to the "pragmatic fundamentals of the Melee Ability", as the Ex3 core puts it. I'm excited to buy Melee dots already.
And every other Martial Art that is released will further define all the things that Melee cannot be - which is not a new problem. It was the exact reason why I spent a game in 2e playing an awesome Western gunslinger with maybe two dots in Archery, because the Ability for firing guns wasn't what I needed to be a Western gunslinger. I needed the Martial Art with Western gunslinger Charms.
Trees like Righteous Devil Style are exciting and interesting and evocative, and the whole reason I made that character in the first place, so I sympathize with the dilemma faced by the writers - but at that point, I'd honestly suggest they go all-in and just outright replace Abilities and their Charms with Styles and their Charms. Righteous Devil Style 5 gives you five dice on any action suited to it, whether that's riding your horse after a criminal, acting all gruff and sheriff-y, burning someone alive, reloading your revolver double-quick, etc. Plus gives access to Righteous Devil Style Charms. Every character just has a bunch of Styles on their sheet, probably no more than three or so at chargen, plus base dots in Attributes to indicate whether they're a big ugly dumb Righteous Devil or a sneaky quick wimpy Righteous Devil. Extras all just get My Face To Your Fist Style. Every expansion book, ever, is just a long stack of Styles with Charms attached. The true CCG is achieved.
There, I've solved Exalted. You can put my cheque in the post.
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With a bazillion charms (+/-a kajillion) in a tree, the chances of both of you deciding on choosing the exact same charms is very very low as long as the charms are roughly balanced with each other.
I mean, I've played Mage, which has exactly 9 special superpowers, which if you're creative, can be used to do almost anything, and @Kerrus's Entropy 3 fight wizard was notably and significantly diferent than my Entropy 3-wielding fight wizard, despite the fact that for a lot of the game, the main difference between us in fight wizarding was that I had higher stats and used a gun. Like, something as simple as how players approach combat will make these characters feel significantly different.
I get that people like mechanical differences but I think the existence of lodsacharms is enough for that.
Could you point out the rule that says this?
- Location
- Ottawa
Does it bother you if your axe-wielder feels like a refluffed knife-fighter?
(Not a rhetorical question.)
This is part of how Kerisgame makes people feel different, even though we cut down to 15 abilities - a not-dissimilar selection to yours, actually. Styles are not-unakin to paradigms that way. Sure, they're giving you access to the same dice pool boost, but Green Sun Nimbus Flare enhancing a swift series of curling jabs with Friagem Serpent Style [1] is totally unlike the berserk, frenzied assault of Blood Ape Style [2]. You have to stunt to apply that bonus, which means you actively have to fight differently and that's all you need to enforce character differentiation.
And that's Infernals, who are literally using the same Charm for a lot of things. It works. Keris does not feel the same as Naan when they go fighting behemoths in the arenas of Malfeas, despite the fact the two of them like bright poisons and green fire.
[1] She's fast - too fast. Flowing from stance to stance, she's toying with you, leading you on - right until she lashes out with a fire-haloed blow and your arm is suddenly a burned stump.
[2] Fire trails behind his hands as he throws himself at you, teeth twisted into a snarl. You block the first, the second, but then the third throws embers in your eyes and the fourth burns your arm to a crisp.
Note that even if a you have all the charms in the same ability, it doesn't mean that all characters are going to have all of those charms: a character who has the hit harder and defensive charms is going to be different from one who has the "hit all the things" and parry charms. And that's just the situation with melee as it stands.
Except he insists that flavorful stunts aren't enough customization for him. He demands charmsets for each of his paradigms. It also doesn't explain whether he things these should be cross splat or although it would seem to be so since he seems to object to the existence of standard splat charmsets. He has basically turned the entire game into 2E martial arts but with the 3E aspect of buying a new ability (now called styles) for each "martial art".
The superficial similarities to your style system are just that. It is basically doubling down on the flaws of 2E you created the style system to solve.
I think the flaw with this notion is that people want both Solars to be the Everyman Superhero who is the default protagonist splat and all their abilities to have a distinct, specific flavor.
I think you can have Solar charm trees have specific flavor, and definitely individual charms, but as long as you want Solars to be the default protagonist splat, trying to give the abilities a distinct flavor is necessarily disfavoring certain character concepts. Like, just as a random example-I can no longer play Batman or Jason Bourne as Solar Brawlers without homebrew, given their calculating and deliberate hand to hand style, and both of them represent 'human excellence.'
Flavoring abilities to say something is restrictive. Restrictions aren't always bad and in fact are often very good (what are rules but restrictions on what you can do and how you can do it?) but they are restrictions.
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Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
I think the flaw with this argument is that you assume I'm advocating for the phenomenon, rather than just describing it.
My knife fighter doesn't have the entire Solar Melee damage tree, actually. Nor any of it, actually, not at the moment. If I were to get him more dedicated Melee Charms, I would focus on the defensive and counterattack Charms, I think. Because Hungry Tiger Technique feels unfitting, to me, personally, as a damage Charm for a hesitant knife fighter. I would likely stop at Fire and Stones Strike, for damage enhancers, for exactly that reason. I mean, obviously you don't have to, you could easily fluff Hungry Tiger Technique as a perfect stab to the lungs or heart or whatever. But it's too much overwhelming damage in fluff and execution for my tastes. Melee's a big tree. Even my dedicated Meleeist with a crazy ton of Melee Charms only has half of it, and the other half would take him until E3 to get, assuming he bought nothing else, which he really wouldn't, he's got Resistance, Presence, and Socialize to invest in.
I think I could make a brutal axe warrior with Melee pretty easily. I'd avoid the defensive tree, dip into damage and hitting reliably, and be a Resistance berserker who can utterly shatter enemy defenses with his heavy weapon and Melee, while being nigh-invulnerable with his Resistance Charms. But I also wouldn't try to master Melee, because Melee, as a whole, doesn't fit the concept. But the damage enhancers and a couple 'hit better' Charms does it fine. Oh, and dip into Athletics, it's got some good stuff for enhancing a damage-focused melee fighter.
TL;DR: Yes, it would bother me if my axe guy felt like a knife fighter, which is why I'd spread my axe-fighter around, since not all Melee Charms would make me feel like a giant with a heavy axe cleaving enemies in two.
However people do advocate for the phenomenon, even if you aren't-and pointing out the problem with it is important because those people exist.
Kerrus
Fractal Insanity
Basically this. My entropy 3 fight wizard primarily used it to make cutting machines in half with a sword easier, or for possibility manipulation on a minor scale. MJ's entropy 3 fight wizard primarily used it to make all his combat actions easier and inflict more damage, letting him get of insane crack shots with his hand cannon all combat long.
Even within the set of 'identical' abilities within the subset of Entropy 3, there's all kinds of different ways to apply them- an incident early during that character's run gave me a bad experience with having combat long buffs up, so I pretty much stopped pre-buffing and instead relied on activating the power when I needed it, not before. MJ's guy, meanwhile, used all combat long buffs, among other things- so even though in a lot of cases we were using the same power, the results could be very different and the play style would be very different.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Jenna Moran got royally screwed, enough so I'm always surprised she stayed in the industry despite it all. I member reading her blog back when everything went wrong, and it was the kind of story you expect to end with "and I was left homeless on the streets with no prospects."
Honestly, I don't see why not, even with martial arts styles that do those things. Melee can't get them in a focused, self-contained package, but I don't see a problem with building some dual-wielding charms off of Peony Blossom Technique, or single perfect strike charms past Hungry Tiger Technique or whatever. Neither of those things infringes on Martial Art's niche. MA's niche is focused, self-contained packages. Individual styles get to infringe on other abilities' niches, but in exchange they get no niche protection of their own.
I mean, you can't do them without homebrew, but that's not because of the MA styles.
- Location
- The end of all things
"We're talking about a 'game' where you are literally the champions of Satan!!"
DON'T FREAK OUT!
WHAT? ME?! I'M CALM! PERFECTLY CALM!
- Location
- Aurora, Ontario
Honestly, I'm just baffled that they could write that update, with a straight face, without prefacing it with "Be Not Afraid."