General Exalted Thread

[Academia Nut]

"That guy killed one of my students and insulted my school, then ran away hundreds of miles out of my reach as fast as he could to hide in the heart of a Realm stronghold" isn't exactly something that makes you look weaker. It's an insult, yes, and it might call for retribution depending on circumstances, but it might not - your enemy already half-conceded that you were a terrifying mofo. If that retribution can be delivered by one Dawn going Roaring Rampage on some Terrestrial asses, then that is what happens. If that requires turning the students into an army and marching on a satrapy, that would both be out-of-character and insane.

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And when the satrapy inevitably marches on you because you are an Anathema and a threat?

And when the local prince just isn't competent enough because he's not Exalted and thus will never be as good at war and leadership as the Dragonblooded?

Do you run away or do you take control of the situation because you are the only one who can?

 

[The Laurent]

And when the satrapy inevitably marches on you because you are an Anathema and a threat?

And when the local prince just isn't competent enough because he's not Exalted and thus will never be as good at war and leadership as the Dragonblooded?

Do you run away or do you take control of the situation because you are the only one who can?

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...or you could let someone actually play their game the way they like it instead of finding excuses/ways to force them to all play* the Empire-Builder game you think Exalted should be, then?

*) Or try to make it look ABSURD that the game isn't that.

 

[Omicron]

And when the satrapy inevitably marches on you because you are an Anathema and a threat?

And when the local prince just isn't competent enough because he's not Exalted and thus will never be as good at war and leadership as the Dragonblooded?

Do you run away or do you take control of the situation because you are the only one who can?

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"The Realm's armies are marching against me to destroy all I've wrought" is absolutely something that could prompt a character to start upping the scale, yes. But here's the thing: that's external to them. This discussion is about how a Solar's goal will naturally expand with their means, their ambitions and desires eventually leading them to build kingdoms and lead armies. That's internal. That's what's been argued to me: you fulfill your goals, you get new goals, eventually you find yourself at the head of a nation. "THE WYLD HUNT IS COMING, NATION-BUILD OR DIE" isn't that: it's something that comes from the outside and is imposed on you, with the only alternative being to cut ties and run away.

Now it's something that's part of the Exalted milieu. Sometimes the Realm is coming for you and your strength alone will not suffice. But it's also not the topic of this conversation.

Let's take that palace-sized fortress-monastery with an army of thousands of warrior monks, for example, like a sun-themed version of the Shaolin Temple.

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I'm really thinking more of a non-fortified school within a pre-existing capital city already ruled by a prince, with a soft cap on the number of students being roughly "however many name+face Snow can personally remember."

 

[Imrix]

Now it's something that's part of the Exalted milieu. Sometimes the Realm is coming for you and your strength alone will not suffice. But it's also not the topic of this conversation.

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Hmmm... I think it kind of is, actually.

I suspect part of the disconnect here is between how Academia Nut originally posited this in terms of infrastructure inevitably becoming the best way to achieve one's goals, as those goals grow in scope, and Revlid and Chung framing it in terms of infrastructure being an inevitable consequence and/or prerequisite of those goals, whether you desire it or not.

Viewing the discussion through that lens, "The Realm is coming!" seems less like an externally imposed event as a natural unfolding of world, as the setting reacts to your deeds. It's a trait of Exalted I am dearly fond of, that the world is cohesive enough that it has these natural chains of consequences.

But that aside Omicron, I think you've kind of shot yourself in the foot here. It seems somewhat telling that you started out saying that you "see plenty of characters in my games who wouldn't be caught dead trying to build "infrastructure" because it's just irrelevant to what they want in life" and insofar as this is true (for the moment), it's because they already have that infrastructure, even if they don't rule it outright (again, for the moment).

 

[Revlid]

I never put my character forward as an example of someone who wouldn't want any infrastructure and political power. Merely as someone for whom that political power eventually reaches a ceiling, a limit beyond which the character is not interested in increasing it.

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Oh, I fully understand that, I'm just of the view that, regardless of whether or not she's interested in increasing her political influence, it will keep increasing. She can reject or deny that influence, and it may come in less direct forms than a rod in one hand and an orb in the other, but that's not the same as plain old not acquiring it. And the rejection of power or denial of influence is a story-driving conflict all of its own - one which may, in the short-term at least, entail more trouble than just accepting your own influence.

 

[Omicron]

Hmmm... I think it kind of is, actually.

I suspect part of the disconnect here is between how Academia Nut originally posited this in terms of infrastructure inevitably becoming the best way to achieve one's goals, as those goals grow in scope, and Revlid and Chung framing it in terms of infrastructure being an inevitable consequence and/or prerequisite of those goals, whether you desire it or not.

Viewing the discussion through that lens, "The Realm is coming!" seems less like an externally imposed event as a natural unfolding of world, as the setting reacts to your deeds. It's a trait of Exalted I am dearly fond of, that the world is cohesive enough that it has these natural chains of consequences.

But that aside Omicron, I think you've kind of shot yourself in the foot here. It seems somewhat telling that your answer to "as your goals grow, so will your need for infrastructure," is, "but she already has that infrastructure." albeit second-hand.

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I guess there is a communication problem, for which I am as much responsible as anyone.

This discussion hasn't been just about infrastructure; it's also been about nations, about the line where an organization becomes a government, about a Solar's tendencies towards kingship. it's been said that Solars naturally grow to rule kingdoms. This seems nonsensical to me not merely because some Solars have lesser ambitions, but also because it's constraining.

I've played a Night Caste King of Thieves. "King of Thieves" was his concept line; the notion of leading and ruling was built-in in the character. And yet this is not a Solar who would ever rule as an actual king; in fact this is not a Solar who would ever seize control of a nation even as a shadowy power behind the throne. This is someone who could, conceivably, grow to be a king of thieves reknowned all across Creation, his network of thieves and spies and con-men seeded throughout an entire Direction, a person of immense power.

And yet still someone who lives in an actual kingdom where the actual king takes ombrage to his influence and frequently sends his soldiers to scour the underground, to find him and hang him. Someone who has tremendous power, wealth, influence, contacts - but someone who has no actual army, who owns no land but his few safehouses, someone who is fundamentally parasistic of a pre-existing social structure. Similarly I played a Zenith sorcerer-monk who could conceivably found a religious order, but just because he creates a powerful religious movement potentially sweeping Crreation doesn't mean he will rule a theocracy; the character himself may very well spend his life wandering the road with only a burlap robe and a walking stick, spreading his word.

 

[Academia Nut]

I've played a Night Caste King of Thieves. "King of Thieves" was his concept line; the notion of leading and ruling was built-in in the character. And yet this is not a Solar who would ever rule as an actual king; in fact this is not a Solar who would ever seize control of a nation even as a shadowy power behind the throne. This is someone who could, conceivably, grow to be a king of thieves reknowned all across Creation, his network of thieves and spies and con-men seeded throughout an entire Direction, a person of immense power.

And yet still someone who lives in an actual kingdom where the actual king takes ombrage to his influence and frequently sends his soldiers to scour the underground, to find him and hang him. Someone who has tremendous power, wealth, influence, contacts - but someone who has no actual army, who owns no land but his few safehouses, someone who is fundamentally parasistic of a pre-existing social structure. Similarly I played a Zenith sorcerer-monk who could conceivably found a religious order, but just because he creates a powerful religious movement potentially sweeping Crreation doesn't mean he will rule a theocracy; the character himself may very well spend his life wandering the road with only a burlap robe and a walking stick, spreading his word.

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Ah yeah, that's a disconnect, because most of the people saying that these examples absolutely fall under the aegis of "empire building" and "accumulating infrastructure" and "assuming leadership positions".

The big thing is that you set your goals and then it's the ST's job to push back. You don't go diving in dungeons for loot just because, there's easier ways to get loot, you go because there's something important in there to achieving a goal you picked. You don't got fighting evil overlords because they are a threat to a kingdom, you go fighting them because they are a threat to you personally or something you personally care about. Hell, a lot of them aren't even 'evil', you're more likely to run into mundane corruption than evil, or people simply being born on the wrong sides of conflicts that started thousands of years ago. If you want to stop the orc horde and reform them into productive citizens to peacefully heal the land, there's charms for that available at char gen. But the more successful you are, the more you accumulate the power that necessitates the ST pushing back harder until you are at the point of political entities on the scale of nations pushing at each other because the powers available to Solars are epic in scope. When you're at those scales, the world reacts to you and you either get crushed or hit back hard enough that you can't help but accumulate power. You could keep your actual stories to a more personal scale "Got to go use my charms to diplomatic convince the Realm to leave us alone for now" or "Lead a strike team to take out the Exalted leadership so that my people can deal with the mundanes more easily" but the stories are being built out of the epic scale goals that you, the player, are setting.

Like, what happens when your King of Thieves has either caused enough chaos that other nations are moving in to pick at the thief ridden corpse of the kingdom or you have so thoroughly compromised the kingdom's leadership that you are de facto the king anyway, even if you don't wear a crown? What happens when your preacher has organized a religious surge that has triggered a crusade one way or the other? Does he try to defuse the situation or help his followers against the terrible campaign levied against them?

I think the best and worst parts of Exalted can be summed up in the phrase "Okay, now what?"

Best in that it offers a living, reactive world that responds to your actions and endless stories to tell of how things evolve. Worst in that they really didn't implement the mechanics that way or provide easy ways to keep STs from going nuts trying to juggle the "Now what's" of 3-5 players all at once.

 

[Aaron Peori]

"The Realm's armies are marching against me to destroy all I've wrought" is absolutely something that could prompt a character to start upping the scale, yes. But here's the thing: that's external to them.

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Except it isn't, because you're building a massive palace and training supersoldiers. You choose to do those things. The world is going to react and its not like any player can call foul on a Wyld Hunt showing up because, frankly, its in the opening fiction of the game. The entire premise is that the divide between internal desires and external reactions is a false divide.

Your internal desires will lead to external consequences. And your reactions to those consequences will lead to shifts in your desires.

I mean, you can play the game without them, which is not a problem. But its certainly not the intended style of play.

 

[Omicron]

Except it isn't, because you're building a massive palace and training supersoldiers.

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Normal soldiers, actually. Snow is a wise woman, a trained martial artist and a decent mentor, but she has no War or Lore Charms and her students aren't tiger-warriors. Just normal people who were trained by a very good swordswoman.

I mean I wouldn't nitpick to that extent ordinarily but my character plans keep being warped into this kind of Shaolin super-fortress training an army of thousands that's a government in all but name when my original point was that it was precisely not that.

The rest of your post mostly just misses the point.

Like, what happens when your King of Thieves has either caused enough chaos that other nations are moving in to pick at the thief ridden corpse of the kingdom or you have so thoroughly compromised the kingdom's leadership that you are de facto the king anyway, even if you don't wear a crown?

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The former would mean he failed at his job, since a key part of organized crime is organized and he's the kind of character who would try to prevent his business from a self-destructive cycle that ends in them peddling drugs among ashes. The latter would be the character failing to achieve his life goal and somehow not stepping out when he finds himself living a life he never wanted.

Like, "I did things and then other things and suddenly I find myself wearing the crown and having to be a king and deal with king things" is a strong and compelling character arc, but it's not universal. Some characters are smart enough to see where things are headed, and know how to pull the brakes when their life is about to get ruined by assuming responsibilities they do not want.

It's often kind of a callous process admittedly - it involves a character looking a situation they believe they could improve and purposefully saying "nope, staying out of that," even if that causes some things to get worse and some people to suffer unduly; but on the scale of potential Solar sins that's fairly low.

Solars aren't robots driven by a desire to take over nation. They're epic heroes with epic passions but this discussion manifests a singular myopia when it comes to what those passions could be. Just because they're on a personal scale does not mean they don't blaze with the fury of Solar Exaltation. Some Solars just want to be "the best" at whatever it is they do, or they build their entire heroic lives around one burning love, or they wander the earth looking for an opponent who can challenge them or hunting the most dangerous game, or whatever.

Solars aren't the fools of the story, doomed to trap themselves in chains of kingship regardless of their desires. This approach frankly baffles me.

 

[Academia Nut]

The former would mean he failed at his job, since a key part of organized crime is organized and he's the kind of character who would try to prevent his business from a self-destructive cycle that ends in them peddling drugs among ashes. The latter would be the character failing to achieve his life goal and somehow not stepping out when he finds himself living a life he never wanted.

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Well here's the thing: those are his two end states. He's too skilled not to do otherwise. He's either going to weaken the state with his actions enough for outsiders to step in, or assume so much control to keep things organized that he's in charge. Either he's going to neutralize or anyone who can stop him, or have the means to stop him wrapped around his finger and dancing to his tune. More than that, so he's failed at his goal and he steps aside. He's got another 4900+ years of life ahead of him.

"Now what?"

So his life's dream didn't work out. And? Got a solid hundred more where that came from. Pick a new one. No retirement here. If you were the type to retire you wouldn't have Exalted as a Solar anyway.

It's often kind of a callous process admittedly - it involves a character looking a situation they believe they could improve and purposefully saying "nope, staying out of that," even if that causes some things to get worse and some people to suffer unduly; but on the scale of potential Solar sins that's fairly low.

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This is where Limit is such a wonderfully sneaky tool.

"Boss, the coppers are roughing up the boys. Jimmy, he got hurt real bad."
"Well, we need not to draw too much heat here so just lay low."
ST: "Really going to let your people suffer for that? Okay, roll me Compassion."
"Crap, a success."
ST: "Okay, so either you do something about this or you spend a point of Willpower and gain limit."
"Craaaaaap."
(Substitute appropriate scenarios for the other virtues as necessary)

Limit is actually a clever whip to keep the players active because refusing to step up to the plate of who your character is will eventually drive them nuts and bring problems. If you don't want to play a game where you have to keep moving or it all comes crashing down on you, don't play Solar Exalted. It's literally not the game for that.

 

[Omicron]

Well here's the thing: those are his two end states. He's too skilled not to do otherwise.

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That's nonsense, and it's the kind of nonsense that makes me wonder how much you've played the game you purport to be talking about. Skills don't just operate on their own, acting outside of your character's will and surpassing his ambitions. Skills are skills; they're what you can do. And you're the one who chosses how to apply them. I don't even know how to refute your point since it's such patent nonsense.

You're the Kingpin of Crime. You're the King of Thieves. You got a few Presence Charms, a couple Bureaucracy Charms, and a fuckton of Larceny, and you use them to maintain a well-oiled organized crime syndicate that outcompetes the opposition. You corrupt enough officials that your operations avoid most trouble. You don't destroy the state, because it's bad for your business. You fight outsiders whenever they try to step in. You don't care about governance of the kingdom, you only care about keeping your pockets full and your people happy.

At no point do your skills just magically explode and start doing things you don't want them to. You're enacting a common fantasy archetype and the game lets you do that. Your network of criminals expands, spanning all across Creation. You encounter other supernatural-backed crime syndicates. You encounter Night Caste avengers and detectives. You encounter Dragon-Blooded Detective Dee. Conflict is your way of life. You grow.

This is where Limit is such a wonderfully sneaky tool.

"Boss, the coppers are roughing up the boys. Jimmy, he got hurt real bad."
"Well, we need not to draw too much heat here so just lay low."
ST: "Really going to let your people suffer for that? Okay, roll me Compassion."
"Crap, a success."
ST: "Okay, so either you do something about this or you spend a point of Willpower and gain limit."
"Craaaaaap."
(Substitute appropriate scenarios for the other virtues as necessary)

Limit is actually a clever whip to keep the players active because refusing to step up to the plate of who your character is will eventually drive them nuts and bring problems. If you don't want to play a game where you have to keep moving or it all comes crashing down on you, don't play Solar Exalted. It's literally not the game for that.

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Why is Compassion your Virtue Limit if you're a crime lord? More importantly, hahaha 2e. You silly.

 

[Ridiculously Average Guy]

What if Exalts are lazy enough not to accomplish anything?

Like, they get phenomenal cosmic power, but are pretty comfortable where they are, so they don't really bother using their abilities.

 

[azoicennead]

Why is Compassion your Virtue Limit if you're a crime lord?

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That's not what that exchange indicates. It indicates that they have Compassion 3+.
Mix that with Conviction and you've got a crime lord who cares for his underlings and is ruthless in protecting them.

More importantly, hahaha 2e. You silly.

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Yes, how hilarious to focus on discussing a system that's actually finished and released.

 

[Omicron]

What if Exalts are lazy enough not to accomplish anything?

Like, they get phenomenal cosmic power, but are pretty comfortable where they are, so they don't really bother using their abilities.

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I would question why such a person would receive Exaltation in the first place, though I wouldn't consider it a priori impossible.

 

[Carrnage]

You don't care about governance of the kingdom, you only care about keeping your pockets full and your people happy.

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I'm pretty sure he's saying that these two things will cause weakening of the state, for example stealing gold from the vaults of nobility, turns out they were going to use that gold to build roads, or train troops, or provide basic services to the kingdom. Theft naturally disrupts the functioning of a kingdom due to money that's been allocated for projects disappearing. And this is assuming that you limit your theft to money.

More importantly, hahaha 2e. You silly.

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Would be a tad more convincing if 3e was formally released.

 

[Omicron]

That's not what that exchange indicates. It indicates that they have Compassion 3+.
Mix that with Conviction and you've got a crime lord who cares for his underlings and is ruthless in protecting them.

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That is not how Limit works. You only gain Limit for resisting your primary Virtue.

 

[notthepenguins]

Normal soldiers, actually. Snow is a wise woman, a trained martial artist and a decent mentor, but she has no War or Lore Charms and her students aren't tiger-warriors. Just normal people who were trained by a very good swordswoman.

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That's remarkably un-Solar-like dedication to teaching her students to be the best they can be and passing on her lessons.

What if Exalts are lazy enough not to accomplish anything?

Like, they get phenomenal cosmic power, but are pretty comfortable where they are, so they don't really bother using their abilities.

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Probably wouldn't Exalt in the first place.

 

[Imrix]

That's nonsense, and it's the kind of nonsense that makes me wonder how much you've played the game you purport to be talking about. Skills don't just operate on their own, acting outside of your character's will and surpassing his ambitions.

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Well... Yes, they do. Unintended consequences are a thing. A remarkably common thing, in fact. As Carrnage points out, the strength of an organised crime syndicate is by necessity maintained at the expense of and in competition with the power of the state.

More importantly, hahaha 2e. You silly.

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I am somewhat perturbed by your willingness to breezily insult an aspect of the game that Academia Nut and others (myself, for one) actually like. I'd rather not get into it though, since I suspect it will end up with me discussing 3e's limit rules, and the parts of them I find to be fecking stupid.

 

[Omicron]

That's remarkably un-Solar-like dedication to teaching her students to be the best they can be and passing on her lessons.

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It's just not a skill she has. It's not a matter of dedication, it's just not where lies her potential.

 

[Imrix]

It's just not a skill she has. It's not a matter of dedication, it's just not where lies her potential.

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So... She's a Solar Exalt who defines herself in large part around her teaching, who is, by the standards of Solar Exalted, not a very good teacher.

Huh?

 

[Academia Nut]

You're the Kingpin of Crime. You're the King of Thieves. You got a few Presence Charms, a couple Bureaucracy Charms, and a fuckton of Larceny, and you use them to maintain a well-oiled organized crime syndicate that outcompetes the opposition. You corrupt enough officials that your operations avoid most trouble. You don't destroy the state, because it's bad for your business. You fight outsiders whenever they try to step in. You don't care about governance of the kingdom, you only care about keeping your pockets full and your people happy.

At no point do your skills just magically explode and start doing things you don't want them to. You're enacting a common fantasy archetype and the game lets you do that. Your network of criminals expands, spanning all across Creation. You encounter other supernatural-backed crime syndicates. You encounter Night Caste avengers and detectives. You encounter Dragon-Blooded Detective Dee. Conflict is your way of life. You grow.

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Is your argument actually "You don't inevitably become a state level actor, such as in this example where my goal is to become a state level actor?"

Like, seriously dude. You just described a system where you don't wear a crown because its beneath you. You're running a state level entity with its own internal bureaucracy (you're gonna need middle managers just coordinate all this shit), laws (code of conduct to keep them all from stabbing each other or doing disorganized crime), monopoly of force (need enforcers to keep the boys and the coppers in line, to say nothing of your own pirate fleet eventually), taxation system (guild tribute) that is capable of taking on major global powers. Like seriously, at that level you have pirate and smuggling fleets that are going to have to be duelling with the Realm if you don't want to get punched down. Minor kingdoms pay you tribute to keep you from overthrowing their governments with a shrug of your shoulders via assassination or political disruption because they annoyed you with attempts to take your stuff by levying taxes or import duties.

Why is Compassion your Virtue Limit if you're a crime lord? More importantly, hahaha 2e. You silly.

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I deliberately picked the weakest example outside of Temperance (because you really need to have a crazy concept with a Temperance focused crime lord). But here: you started off as a street rat concerned with all the problems you experienced every day and wanted to make things better by bringing your compassionate order. But fuck man, Valor or Conviction? Those are so much worse as your primary virtue. You won't settle for being second best with either of those as your primary. Every setback or insult will compel you forward. Just sitting there and taking it will make you accrue Limit even faster than the mild Compassion. And as mentioned, I have nothing but 2E to go off here because 3E isn't out to the general public yet.

It's just not a skill she has. It's not a matter of dedication, it's just not where lies her potential.

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So she's a combat Solar Exalted who has physical stats of 2-3 and martial stats of 3 across the board and never ups them to 5s within the first five years of Exaltation? Because just having those stats at 5 means that she can help train her students naturally up to peak human ability with normal methods, no need for the compressed tutelage of Tiger Warriors. It takes years instead of weeks, but just by who she is and what her goal is she will be able to get her students up to peak human in short order without any supernatural effects. And if she is anywhere where a Wyld Hunt won't be dropped on her in an instant, people will be begging at her feet to train their people.

 

[Omicron]

So... She's a Solar Exalt who defines herself in large part around her teaching, who is, by the standards of Solar Exalted, not a very good teacher.

Huh?

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Snow is a Supernal Awareness Solar with a minor in Single Point Style. The core of her character is a weary, war-beaten veteran who saw all her companions die around her and the force of the greatest empire in the world, civilization itself, brought low by barbarians and demons. Though she set up a dojo and attempts to pass on her teachings, it's merely an excuse; a means of her to gain enough social status and acceptance to never want. Though she likes her students, and is trying her best to teach them, mentorship was never something core to her; it's something she latched onto to make this new life easier. She's as good at it as any man could be, but it's simply not a manifestation of her Solar excellence. That manifests instead through her senses, her reflective meditation, her mastery of the style, her honing of her body.

She's an athlete who retired into coaching despite having no coaching skills, wrought large. The core of who she is manifests when she goes off to fight monsters and bandits, to defend the innocent, to prevent the Hundred Kingdoms from truly collapsing - but without offering a path towards lasting stability. This is also why her school, though it may grow, will never be a fortress-temple training an army of tiger-warriors. It's not what she wants out of life. Her school is a means of social integration for herself, and a form of retirement (out of which the call to adventure keeps dagging her).

Thus, no teaching Charms.

 

[Ridiculously Average Guy]

I would question why such a person would receive Exaltation in the first place, though I wouldn't consider it a priori impossible.

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A truly magnificent clerk that, upon exalting, is still fine just being a clerk.

 

[Academia Nut]

A truly magnificent clerk that, upon exalting, is still fine just being a clerk.

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Naturally better at being a clerk than everyone around them. Promotions follow. Refusal to rise up the ranks with their skill may rouse office politics suspicions. Also, stops aging upon Exaltation, so after at most a few decades someone is going to notice. Also, there are ninjas hunting them by checking the sky for their presence. Also, refusal to act when they see an act that offends them in some way slowly drives them crazy.

So, most likely death by ninjas after they throw some sort of tantrum because the people around them kept pressing their buttons.

 

[notthepenguins]

Thus, no teaching Charms.

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So, she's doing the Solar equivalent of just skating by without really pushing herself.

That's fine, I guess, but I question why you included it as part of her Ultimate Goals then.