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General Exalted Thread

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This is becoming a somewhat different debate than it initially seemed, but for the most part you can become the Best Swordsman In The World without needing to run anything (even as a willing figurehead). You can be the wandering sword-saint, reject any requests to settle down and teach a school, or to become a bodyguard, or to intervene in disputes on anything but a fleeting mercenary basis, and spent all your days meditating on the enlightenment offered by a sublime cutting edge. Your rivals might be able to commission better swords or train better/more pupils, but in pure Sword That Thing terms they're probably not better than you.

That means you're a specific kind of character who is actively trying to avoid attachment to the world (very Buddhist) which entails its own conflicts. It means you're very much not the default. And if you take it too far, you'll end up with a boring character – there's a reason that wandering the Earth without attachments is most often the subject of a character's backstory or epilogue, and even episodic tales put the journey on pause for stuff to happen as the character interacts with the world.

Hell, look at One Piece. The main character is damned determined to keep this a tight-knit seaborne adventuring party, but he's done so much cool stuff that people have taken notice. He's acquired supporters and idolizers, enemies and rivals, many of whom are very much Infrastructure-OK. The last arc ended with him saving a bunch of fellow captains and national leaders from a dastardly trap, and it was the picture of a PC trying to keep his game "personal" in scale – outright rejecting their attempts to swear loyalty and brotherhood to him. Luffy's interested in a very personal goal – finding a specific treasure at the edge of the world – but the world's responding in a way that makes it clear that (despite his protests) the title "King of the Pirates" isn't just for show.
 
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runeblue360 said:
You want to craft; you need tools. You need construction workshops and craft manses, which need to be built and supplied and funded. You need raw materials - and for high-level Artifacts you need really expensive raw materials that may need you to cross Creation to get. You need to harmonise the dragon lines in the area to make your factory-cathedral work. You need to become a major power in the region, or ally yourself with one, if you want to make truly supernal artifacts - not even mass-production; if you want cutting-edge tech you need cutting edge infrastructure as a foundation. And if you have that foundation you might as well mass-produce lesser things with it to fund your high-level babies.

Basically, it comes down to this: sitting on your ass in a cave all day long and never interacting with Creation? Is boring as fuck. People should not be allowed to do that, and yes, anything that requires you to use a means of getting what you want that forces you to go out and do things is a positive. And yes, infrastructure actually is, in real life, a massive advantage. It's a drawback as well, and so people who pay the cost of "setting up and dealing with and defending their infrastructure" get to be better than you at Crafting, better than you at accumulating knowledge, better than you at healing and medicine if you choose to try and do it all by yourself with no rooted-down backing or support.

They're Solars too. You don't get to go "wah wah but I Solar" and be as good at achieving your goals as the people who are paying more in terms of effort and Stuff That Actually Helps With That Kind Of Thing In The Real World than you are. You're not forced to play the nation-scale game, no; any more than you're forced to pay for Artifact armour and weapons. But unless you do, you will always end up inferior to those who scale up and become major players, because they will have advantages you do not. It will take you longer to get what you want, and you will simply be flat-out unable to reach the heights they can. That's the way the world works.
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First, I must say that being being self-reliant and autonomous doesn't necessarily mean the campaign will be boring. It'll just be a different kind of interesting. Autonomy doesn't mean that there will be no interaction with the elements of the setting/campaign. In some cases this is achieved by autonomous characters/groups still gaining some benefit from interacting with an outside source of goodies. For example, nomad hunter-gatherers sure can benefit from trading with settled farmers! But that shouldn't be read so broadly as to disqualify a Solar from becoming an embodiment of nomadic self reliance.

It's doubly annoying when the corebook offers such an iconic (to quote @Shyft*) character concept, only to then be met by a GM (or an author of a book published later) who considers it BadWrongFun and tries to shut it down / pigeonhole it into infrastructural nationbuilding.

Should those who have chosen the infrastructural boost benefit from them? Absolutely! And they should be better at some things than the autonomous/self-reliant ones. But, likewise, those who chose to spend their XP on autonomy/self-reliance, should be able to make their concept shine in situation where the former would suffer ('with a box of scraps'). I brought up Craftsman Needs No Tools because it's precisely the case of a high Solar Concept that the game claims to allow people to play, as it does with a concept of an Invincible Sword Princess who always has a sword even when she doesn't.


* == Original quote:
Shyft said:
Ahhh, one of the most iconic Solar Charms. At Craft 4, Essence 3, this lovely effect is firmly a Miracle. You spend 7m+1wp to supplement a craft action.

This charm waives the need for tools when crafting, and removes any penalties for lackin tools. (You still might not have the right tools). By the strictest reading of the charm, you qualify as having a Basic Workshop for whatever craft you happen to be using. Basically if a job needs a hammer, you can push nails with your fingers. If you need chisels for shaping rock, your fingernails will do. You want to cook eggs? Your palms are now skillets.

Secondly, like Crack-Mending Technique, this charm lets you accomplish [Essence x3] hours worth of work per realtime work hour. Again I have to stress that there's no consistent ruling on how long it takes to craft an artifact in work hours, save that it's a Season, or three months.

So we have come yet again to the conclusion that Solars are all about Removing Obstacles between them and taking an action. There are THINGS that need to be made, and they don't have time to worry about having tools on-hand.

Now, here's another thing you should keep in mind, which is relevant to anyone who wants to craft artifacts- strictly speaking, this charm can't supplement the first half of an artifact project, the theory and research half, because that isn't, strictly speaking, the kind of craft action it's intended to supplement.
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vicky_molokh said:
Should those who have chosen the infrastructural boost benefit from them? Absolutely! And they should be better at some things than the autonomous/self-reliant ones. But, likewise, those who chose to spend their XP on autonomy/self-reliance, should be able to make their concept shine in situation where the former would suffer ('with a box of scraps')
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"With a box of scraps" means "I made my armour with access to a large cache of salvageable high tech parts, crude but functional tools applicable to the job at hand, and my end product was far, far, far worse than what I could have made if I had the actually applicable tools to hand". Indeed, Tony Stark blatantly demonstrates how much of an advantage infrastructure is because his Mk1 armour was crap compared to later things - and also compared to Stane's suit, too, despite the fact that it was being built by people not as good as him.

I am totally behind people being able to make crude Shogunate armour if they have access to a Shogunate welding shop and a lot of salvageable Shogunate tech. But that's never what people whining about "box of scraps" want. So it's not really pertinent at all.
 
NonSequtur said:
Not all character concepts will fit in Exalted. For instance, anything to do with resurrection.
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Except if you are a Liminal!

Also, i just realized that my pre embrional Craft system is going to be a lot more complex than what i expected. yay. (Or, how i can support the witch doctor who had to use the wonders of several generation to make something and the lazy rich guy who is good at craft but bought eveyrthing.)
 
I'm kind of wary about making threadmarks for homebrew in this thread since, you know, of the people who frequently post a lot of homebrew; three are close friends of mine and one is me. But if people want to vote for "all my/ES's demons" or "those sweet Malfean city Charms", I guess I can go find and add them, sure.
 
Aleph said:
I'm kind of wary about making threadmarks for homebrew in this thread since, you know, of the people who frequently post a lot of homebrew; three are close friends of mine and one is me. But if people want to vote for "all my/ES's demons" or "those sweet Malfean city Charms", I guess I can go find and add them, sure.
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Well you've got my vote.

Hmm, does SV's forum software contain wiki support?
 
Hazard said:
This sounds more like an attempted explanation of the origin of the Great Curse than anything else.
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It certainly looks like it, and I had assumed as much myself, but apparently it's something else entirely.
Stephen Lea Sheppard said:
Essence Fever is a thing from the 1e corebook that never got mechanics and everyone assumed must have been, like, a remnant from a previous draft when Limit Break had different mechanics, but when Geoff came on to 3e and got to talking to Holden and John, it turns out that no, it was always totally meant to be a setting element that had been there, and apparently played big roles in Geoff's games, but just didn't have mechanics associated with it. So for 3e they emphasized it a bit more.
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I haven't followed this thread regularly until recently, so threadmarking the homebrew stuff would be very useful for me. On one hand, I would like to read about them, but on the other, I don't want to sroll through hundreds of pages to find them (or even fool around with the search function).
 
If I might put in a word?
I would suggest that each homebrewer open a thread as a repository for their own homebrew, and @Aleph can threadmark the post announcing it instead.
Makes it less likely to lose track of interesting writeups
 
EarthScorpion said:
"With a box of scraps" means "I made my armour with access to a large cache of salvageable high tech parts, crude but functional tools applicable to the job at hand, and my end product was far, far, far worse than what I could have made if I had the actually applicable tools to hand". Indeed, Tony Stark blatantly demonstrates how much of an advantage infrastructure is because his Mk1 armour was crap compared to later things - and also compared to Stane's suit, too, despite the fact that it was being built by people not as good as him.

I am totally behind people being able to make crude Shogunate armour if they have access to a Shogunate welding shop and a lot of salvageable Shogunate tech. But that's never what people whining about "box of scraps" want. So it's not really pertinent at all.
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And I thought that the 'salvageable high-tech parts' bit was an example of (mild to moderate) Adaptation Wimpification.

But you're right that there should be an advantage for those who rely on infrastructure. In case of Solars, that's an advantage of 8-16 XP of not having to buy Craftsman Needs No Tools and Words As Workshop, which can be spend on something else (e.g. Resources or Influence or Manse, which have other uses besides providing crafting infrastructure). There's more than one way to make crafters awesome. One Solar is the savant god-king who crafts clockwork spidertanks in her grand craft-manse-cathedral-workshop, another is the iconic sort who drives nails with his tough fists and welds jadesteel with his stern sun-bright eyes.
"Solars are all about Removing Obstacles between them and taking an action. There are THINGS that need to be made, and they don't have time to worry about having tools on-hand" seems to describe the latter concept. In fact, the ability to not worry about petty mortal stuff seems to be very much a part of Solar thematics, which is why they get lots and lots of 'bypass nuisances' mechanics (Heroism-Encouraging Presence, Perfect Mirror, JET, various Perfect Defences, No Tools, Reflex Sidestep, Easily-Overlooked Presence, and the free immunity to the common cold). Removing things like Words-As-Workshop will mean that Solar thematics get ditched in Craft.

Anasurimbor said:
It certainly looks like it, and I had assumed as much myself, but apparently it's something else entirely.
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So, an example of Ex3e actually implementing something that 'was always supposed to be', after all the criticism of not following the vision of the founding fathers and mothers? Somehow I find this extremely amusing.
 
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vicky_molokh said:
And I thought that the 'salvageable high-tech parts' bit was an example of (mild to moderate) Adaptation Wimpification.
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You brought up "box of scraps". Stop trying to dodge the point, because I don't give a fuck about whatever retarded feats the comic books assign. We're talking about MCU Tony Stark here, the "box of scraps" line is in that context, and going "Oh but for reals I'm going to use a TVTropism to explain how my example wasn't what I actually meant" doesn't impress me.

I am down with Solars getting to build clunky yet superior-to-modern-era armour using salvaged scrap and patchwork tools from fallen great ages.

What I am not down with is Solars getting to bypass all requirements to actually get those tools. If you need an adamant-tipped chisel to do the fine engraving to make a certain kind of armour, then a Solar should be able to make a work-around tool using diamonds that wears out quickly but still allows them to do the work. What they shouldn't be able to do is just use their fingernail.

Because that's stupid. And makes an utter mockery of the setting, the idea that they're "human heroes", and is boring as hell because it means they don't have to actually think up clever workarounds and use their ingenuity to jury-rig and boostrap themselves up.

vicky_molokh said:
But you're right that there should be an advantage for those who rely on infrastructure. In case of Solars, that's an advantage of 8-16 XP of not having to buy Craftsman Needs No Tools and Words As Workshop, which can be spend on something else (e.g. Resources or Influence or Manse, which have other uses besides providing crafting infrastructure).
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That's more than a trifle obtuse to claim that. Like, it's just plain wrong. Absolutely and utterly. Backgrounds are 3XP per dot if you use non-core sources (because they're not priced at all in the core, suggesting you can just pick them up for free in play - like, say, how a super-crafter can much more easily make things to sell and build themselves a manse). Are you really, really trying to claim that "I have CNNT so I don't need any of your hard to build, expensive, complicated infrastructural tools and also build things a minimum of 9 times faster" are equivalent to 2 and a bit dots of Resources?

No. Of course it's not. To argue otherwise indicates you're either entirely detached from the XP economy, unaware of how much of a big deal speed boosters are, or are simply arguing for the sake of it. Every Solar crafter worth their salt is going to want CNNT, because of the speed booster. And that means every Solar crafter who's at all serious about what they're doing doesn't actually need tools.

That is stupid as all hell.
 
EarthScorpion said:
You brought up "box of scraps". Stop trying to dodge the point, because I don't give a fuck about whatever retarded feats the comic books assign. We're talking about MCU Tony Stark here, the "box of scraps" line is in that context, and going "Oh but for reals I'm going to use a TVTropism to explain how my example wasn't what I actually meant" doesn't impress me.

I am down with Solars getting to build clunky yet superior-to-modern-era armour using salvaged scrap and patchwork tools from fallen great ages.

What I am not down with is Solars getting to bypass all requirements to actually get those tools. If you need an adamant-tipped chisel to do the fine engraving to make a certain kind of armour, then a Solar should be able to make a work-around tool using diamonds that wears out quickly but still allows them to do the work. What they shouldn't be able to do is just use their fingernail.

Because that's stupid. And makes an utter mockery of the setting, the idea that they're "human heroes", and is boring as hell because it means they don't have to actually think up clever workarounds and use their ingenuity to jury-rig and boostrap themselves up.
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Are you actually opposed to Craftsman Needs No Tools as written?
 
EarthScorpion said:
You brought up "box of scraps". Stop trying to dodge the point, because I don't give a fuck about whatever retarded feats the comic books assign. We're talking about MCU Tony Stark here, the "box of scraps" line is in that context, and going "Oh but for reals I'm going to use a TVTropism to explain how my example wasn't what I actually meant" doesn't impress me.

I am down with Solars getting to build clunky yet superior-to-modern-era armour using salvaged scrap and patchwork tools from fallen great ages.

What I am not down with is Solars getting to bypass all requirements to actually get those tools. If you need an adamant-tipped chisel to do the fine engraving to make a certain kind of armour, then a Solar should be able to make a work-around tool using diamonds that wears out quickly but still allows them to do the work. What they shouldn't be able to do is just use their fingernail.

Because that's stupid. And makes an utter mockery of the setting, the idea that they're "human heroes", and is boring as hell because it means they don't have to actually think up clever workarounds and use their ingenuity to jury-rig and boostrap themselves up.
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I'm quoting 'box of scraps' to denote both the MCU and the original Stark's feats, because the MCU Stark is the adaptation of the original Stark, and the phrase is a nod to the original feat.
That being said, accusing comic books over-the-top-ness of 'retarded feats' when discussing a game that is explicitly inspired by over-the-top manga is . . . uh, very selective? I mean, why discard such inspirations? Because they're not Asian or something?

Also, regarding bypasses, that's the thing: a major Solar theme is that their Charms are the workarounds that let them bypass many mortal problems. It's kinda blatant throughout their charmset and the analysis of the Charms in this very thread.

EarthScorpion said:
That's more than a trifle obtuse to claim that. Like, it's just plain wrong. Absolutely and utterly. Backgrounds are 3XP per dot if you use non-core sources (because they're not priced at all in the core, suggesting you can just pick them up for free in play - like, say, how a super-crafter can much more easily make things to sell and build themselves a manse). Are you really, really trying to claim that "I have CNNT so I don't need any of your hard to build, expensive, complicated infrastructural tools and also build things a minimum of 9 times faster" are equivalent to 2 and a bit dots of Resources?

No. Of course it's not. To argue otherwise indicates you're either entirely detached from the XP economy, unaware of how much of a big deal speed boosters are, or are simply arguing for the sake of it. Every Solar crafter worth their salt is going to want CNNT, because of the speed booster. And that means every Solar crafter who's at all serious about what they're doing doesn't actually need tools.

That is stupid as all hell.
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Yeah, I used the 3× XP value from the Errata. It's in fact the value that is used in the campaign I play in for 'solidified' Backgrounds with a capital-B. But okay, it doesn't need to be precisely Resources +2½. It might be another Charm. Or a fifth dot of Bureaucracy to better manage said infrastructure (which too has many uses other than to assist crafting!). The point is that there's a tradeoff.

If anything, the 9× speedup being bundled with the tool-bypassing Charm is a problem, as is the fact that it serves as a prerequisite for Wonder-Forging Genius. Because it means that even a crafter with a strong infrastructure will still want to buy CNNT, and that reduces variability of characters/incentives.
 
notanautomaton said:
You do realize that the original start made his suit in a sophisticated southeast Asian weapons facility, right?
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The 'literal box of scraps' feat is attributed to the original (comic) Stark, but I do not remember it being established for sure that it was the first suit. If it turns out that the attribution is incorrect, that just means* we need to look for a more obscure fictional example character who exemplifies the autonomous crafter tropes that Craftsman Needs No Tools, Words As Workshop etc. are meant to enable.

* == Okay, it also means that whoever pointed it out before in this thread was misinformed, and as a result so was I. If.
 
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Tony Stark's entire power growth is based on always staying at the cutting edge of technological development and maintaining facilities that help produce ever more advanced and refined armors, constantly improving on their design. Using him as an example of Solars unbound to infrastructure is frankly ridiculous.
 
Aaron Peori said:
CNNT as written doesn't actually contradict his vision of the setting. It eliminates the need for tools but not exotic components. In this case "scraps of first age crafting gear" would be one of the Exotic Components needed.
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No. Second Age Tony Stark also needs his Shogunate welding torch to make a clean hot flame that doesn't contaminate the materials with uncontrolled fire essence, his budget Shogunate analytic machine to interface with the deistic engrams of the armour and chant the start-up mantras, and all those little products of modern civilisation that exist there. They are tools - tools that he needs, or needs to spend a lot of time making inferior substitutes that limit what he can do (like having to hand-compile his mantras rather than having an analytic machine). A Solar should be able to use those tools much better, yes - and push performance out of them that others couldn't get, but not bypass the requirements.

And even the gameline acknowledge it, with the attempts in Oadenal's to errata-nerf CNNT.

The workaround "Oh, the tools he needs are actually exotic components, not tools" is just an attempt to handle how awful CNNT is as an effect. The fact that you have to designate a class of tool that doesn't count as a tool so it can't be ignored by "doesn't need tools" indicates the problem is with "doesn't need tools".

vicky_molokh said:
That being said, accusing comic books over-the-top-ness of 'retarded feats' when discussing a game that is explicitly inspired by over-the-top manga is . . . uh, very selective? I mean, why discard such inspirations? Because they're not Asian or something?
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Okay, uh, that's nice. Come back when you're going to actually be serious, 'mkay?

I discard vast swathes of the western comic book canon because they're the product of an incestuous and creatively sterile serialised medium that has decades of producing a lot of very, very dumb stuff. I don't give a shit if Tony Stark once made a suit of power armour using only a blacksmith's forge or whatever example you're going to dredge out of over half a century of serialised material, because that's as the French put it "Fucking retarded". Tony Stark's "power" is being a very clever engineering prodigy who's also super-rich, is amazing at developing new tools and is on the cutting edge of technological development. That's his thing. That's his schtick. Making power armour using the tools of a medieval blacksmith, on the other hand, is beyond him - it's out of theme and it's out of genre.

That's why the MCU is a better setting than mainstream comics. Because they cut out most of the crap and actually have a clear, mostly coherent vision of the characters.

And so, no, for all your... uh, interesting debating style it's got jack shit to do with the Asian-ness or lack thereof.

It's to do with the fact that, fuck it, I want my Solar blacksmith to be forced to use a forge and hammer on metal. Because he is a blacksmith. And a Solar blacksmith should damn well want to build himself a better, more efficient forge that uses less coal and then progresses to make deals with fire elementals who offer to live in his forge and bless his tools because they're impressed by his temperate, hard-working lifestyle and his devotion to his craft. And that should matter, because he now has a better forge - he shouldn't just shrug it off because lol CNNT. And if he uses Charms, he can use a campfire for his fire, a convenient nearby rock as an anvil, and the pommel of his sword as a hammer and patch up his damaged armour on the fly, but that's explicitly something he's doing because he doesn't have what he'd prefer to do and he'd do a better job if he actually had his forge to hand.
 
EarthScorpion said:
No. Second Age Tony Stark also needs his Shogunate welding torch to make a clean hot flame that doesn't contaminate the materials with uncontrolled fire essence, his budget Shogunate analytic machine to interface with the deistic engrams of the armour and chant the start-up mantras, and all those little products of modern civilisation that exist there. They are tools - tools that he needs, or needs to spend a lot of time making inferior substitutes that limit what he can do (like having to hand-compile his mantras rather than having an analytic machine). A Solar should be able to use those tools much better, yes - and push performance out of them that others couldn't get, but not bypass the requirements.

And even the gameline acknowledge it, with the attempts in Oadenal's to errata-nerf CNNT.

The workaround "Oh, the tools he needs are actually exotic components, not tools" is just an attempt to handle how awful CNNT is as an effect. The fact that you have to designate a class of tool that doesn't count as a tool so it can't be ignored by "doesn't need tools" indicates the problem is with "doesn't need tools".



Okay, uh, that's nice. Come back when you're going to actually be serious, 'mkay?

I discard vast swathes of the western comic book canon because they're the product of an incestuous and creatively sterile serialised medium that has decades of producing a lot of very, very dumb stuff. I don't give a shit if Tony Stark once made a suit of power armour using only a blacksmith's forge or whatever example you're going to dredge out of over half a century of serialised material, because that's as the French put it "Fucking retarded". Tony Stark's "power" is being a very clever engineering prodigy who's also super-rich, is amazing at developing new tools and is on the cutting edge of technological development. That's his thing. That's his schtick. Making power armour using the tools of a medieval blacksmith, on the other hand, is beyond him - it's out of theme and it's out of genre.

That's why the MCU is a better setting than mainstream comics. Because they cut out most of the crap and actually have a clear, mostly coherent vision of the characters.

And so, no, for all your... uh, interesting debating style it's got jack shit to do with the Asian-ness or lack thereof.

It's to do with the fact that, fuck it, I want my Solar blacksmith to be forced to use a forge and hammer on metal. Because he is a blacksmith. And a Solar blacksmith should damn well want to build himself a better, more efficient forge that uses less coal and then progresses to make deals with fire elementals who offer to live in his forge and bless his tools because they're impressed by his temperate, hard-working lifestyle and his devotion to his craft. And that should matter, because he now has a better forge - he shouldn't just shrug it off because lol CNNT. And if he uses Charms, he can use a campfire for his fire, a convenient nearby rock as an anvil, and the pommel of his sword as a hammer and patch up his damaged armour on the fly, but that's explicitly something he's doing because he doesn't have what he'd prefer to do and he'd do a better job if he actually had his forge to hand.
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Tony Stark MacGuyvering together a set of power armor using nothing but scraps is very much within his theme. It wouldn't be a very good set of power armor but it would be work and be better than what anyone else made using those raw materials. He's the genius inventor who can build what is needed out of whatever is on hand. He's super rich so he gets to work at the cutting edge but that doesn't take away from his ability to engineer with whatever is at hand.

The difference here is that his coconut based weaponry are going to get their asses handed to them by people using anywhere close to modern tech, but if the other guys only have coconuts to work with he'll win.
 
Peter parker in such a case would be a better example, else it is like arguing that Batman is a example of someone that anyone could become.

And in regards to XP I would assume that you would need more then 3 dots of infrastructure as a requirement to get these materials, especially considering how a exotic one should, if they where avaible on the market, be a resource 4+ buy.
 
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