To be honest, that sounds utterly ridiculous. "Tax on my game time"? The antagonist is the game time. If fighting them isn't fun for you, why do they exist? Why would you deliberately design the game so as to create frustration and drive players to deliberately avoid engaging with itself?
For starters, some idea that was considered potentially interesting for players by the GM may end up being frustrating/annoying/boring in the players' opinion in actual play. That's for a totally innocent 'GMs are not Solars and thus can make mistakes'. In a worse case scenario (one which should raise considerations about leaving/ending a campaign), a GM can be outright forcing his/her ideas of fun on others throughout the campaign.
 
Actually, Problem Calculus is a good name for a different-but-still-relevant thing, which is the way that Exalted is so much more proactive than reactive; at least in theory. It's really, really cool that it expects you to be more than a murderhobo, but it leads to interference and higher load on both sides, because the player is having to balance various different problems - the goals that they want to achieve by leading the plot instead of following it against the antagonistic plot elements the ST is putting in for them. Meanwhile, the ST has more work because instead of the players reacting to stuff the ST is throwing at them - first order planning - they're having to work out and propagate the ramifications of the player's plans, decide what obstacles are in their way and consider possible routes they might go down and flesh them out appropriately - second order planning, if not third.
What exactly do you mean by proactive/reactive here? In my (admittedly limited) experience, Exalted games tend to be very proactive in that they allow players great freedom in determining the means of solving any given problem they face, but fundamentally reactive in that these problems (and often, the player's goals) are set before them by the ST. I don't think I've ever been in a game that did not start by positing a crisis and asking the players how they react to it.
 
What exactly do you mean by proactive/reactive here? In my (admittedly limited) experience, Exalted games tend to be very proactive in that they allow players great freedom in determining the means of solving any given problem they face, but fundamentally reactive in that these problems (and often, the player's goals) are set before them by the ST. I don't think I've ever been in a game that did not start by positing a crisis and asking the players how they react to it.
Most Exalted games I've played in or run start that way -- it's a great way to hook the PCs together -- and once that initial hook is complete transition into seeing what the PCs do next, with hooks provided only if they don't drive the story themselves.
 
What exactly do you mean by proactive/reactive here? In my (admittedly limited) experience, Exalted games tend to be very proactive in that they allow players great freedom in determining the means of solving any given problem they face, but fundamentally reactive in that these problems (and often, the player's goals) are set before them by the ST. I don't think I've ever been in a game that did not start by positing a crisis and asking the players how they react to it.

Often times, games are started by these kinds of inciting incidents, yes. They're the one scripted sequence that ideally lets the players settle into their characters and get used to the game. The difference is, Exalted wants you to do that sparingly, and instead, after doing something, let the players direct the game.

Like, this comes back to the 'tutorial' of Exalted that is implicit but very poorly communicated inthe books, that you are intended to let players grab huge fistsfuls of the world, shake, and see what comes out. Scripted, on-rail plots are traditional concepts that DnD and similar games hew to by their nature, before they pushed further and further into 'combat engines' and not 'roleplaying games'. (This is not a bad thing, exactly)

So in theory, (which is harder to apply in practice), Exalted is supposed to work like this: You present your players with a situation- usually something tailored to their backstories and motivations. Like- "You all are in Nexus for similar reasons, and the situation has conspired that you all meet and greet."

Or , more artfully, you have already worked together and the introductory session is the Big Confrontation, no messy footwork yet. (Exalted likes to skip that stuff, remember?).

Anyway, so you resolve the inciting incident, and then in a standard Solar game, players are then asked "So now what do you want to do?"

If the game and ST have done their jobs well, they'll be buzzing with ideas and feeling power at their fingertips: "I want to take over Nexus!" And then the ST starts figuring out 'okay, what do you have to do to take over Nexus.'and communicates that to the players-. The players are the ones who think of METHODS (charm, kill, buy, etc), but the ST decides the terms of success.

So when we say 'proactive', we mean players set an actionable goal in the game world and then take actions to accomplish it. These can be Conquest, Fame, Material Wealth, Vengeance, whatever.
 
What exactly do you mean by proactive/reactive here? In my (admittedly limited) experience, Exalted games tend to be very proactive in that they allow players great freedom in determining the means of solving any given problem they face, but fundamentally reactive in that these problems (and often, the player's goals) are set before them by the ST. I don't think I've ever been in a game that did not start by positing a crisis and asking the players how they react to it.

The issue is that while at lower level play you can go murderhoboing about, eventually you're going to realize that the best solutions to your problems require infrastructure and investment. So the hook of "The Realm is unstable and there is a succession crisis" can easily have the players respond "We go off to the periphery to build up a kingdom to have the resources to come in and take over."

Suddenly the ST has one player who is working on diplomatic intrigues to tie together various peoples, one who is building up an army, one guy hunting fae for raw resources to turn into wonders, and so on and so forth and all of this behaviour is implicitly and explicitly encouraged by the core texts. Only now you're spinning off potentially two or three different antagonistic forces per player and you still have to deal with the rest of the plot running in the background.

In most games becoming king is the end of the game, your player has no where left to go and becomes an NPC because they no longer really work with the systems. In Exalted being king can easily be the starting point.
 
Like, this comes back to the 'tutorial' of Exalted that is implicit but very poorly communicated inthe books, that you are intended to let players grab huge fistsfuls of the world, shake, and see what comes out. Scripted, on-rail plots are traditional concepts that DnD and similar games hew to by their nature, before they pushed further and further into 'combat engines' and not 'roleplaying games'. (This is not a bad thing, exactly)

Combat, incidentally, usually bores the crap out of me. There's little talking no politicking, and it all happens over such a small timescale. That's why the fact that @Aleph is murder on two legs is such a blessing - because most combat is not a meaningful challenge, it can be resolved quickly without having to move into combat time.

And that means we can get to the interesting things, like the consequences of a combat.

(The epitome of that would be the Dragonblooded game I played in at uni, where the party of five Dragonblooded lead the effort to break the back of the Bull of the North's army while it made the long advance to Cherak through trickery, use of plague, and two instances where we got 10+ dragonblooded together and jumped an isolated Solar when they weren't expecting fully armoured and armed Dragonblooded murder teams.

Dragonblooded strongest there are. Dragonblooded true heroes.)
 
The issue is that while at lower level play you can go murderhoboing about, eventually you're going to realize that the best solutions to your problems require infrastructure and investment.
Why? Infrastructure and investment provide assets, but they also create ties, responsibilities and demands. Infrastructure and investment is not the best solution to your problems, because it creates new problems. It's merely 'a' solution, and even that depends what your character is after. I see plenty of characters in my games who wouldn't be caught dead trying to build "infrastructure" because it's just irrelevant to what they want in life - and what they want in life is often of a rather personal nature, based on personal relationships or self-improvement. Admittedly, my Solar games are fairly recent, having only started since Ex3, so a lot of what I'm saying I base on Sidereals, Lunars and Dragon-Bloods.
 
That's fair, @Omicron, but one thing that the fluff of Exalted tried to push (and which the mechanics were woefully bad at supporting) was that the returning Solars were empire-builders and god-kings. That the default gameline expected you to start building kingdoms, going all Sun Tzu on the Hundred Kingdoms or uniting the West or whatever. It was terribly implemented, but a lot of the assumptions were built around this thing; that the game was intended to move into Big Scale Stuff, and that it very much wanted to be a game in which ruling nations was the natural point you'd arrive at after a certain amount of play. It was one of the ways it distinguished itself from other RPGs, or at least tried to.

To some extent this ties back to what was being said about morality in Creation some time ago, and the way that there is no objective moral code, there is no place where It's All Pretty Good and then Oh No Dr Doom Is Enacting An Evil Scheme and the protagonists must Return The Land To Peace And Order. There isn't any peace and order to return the land to. There never has been; not in the seven hundred years of the Realm, not in the twelve hundred of the Shogunate, and arguably not even in the three thousandish of the Deliberative. If you want to have a time of Peace And Plenty in the land, you have to go out and actively make it yourself; it's the opposite way round to the usual comic-book plot of "everything's basically okay and then a villain upsets things and the heroes have to return matters to the status quo". The status quo sucks. You're incentivised to go change it - and that means infrastructure and nation-scale play if you want to do it on any kind of scale.
 
Why? Infrastructure and investment provide assets, but they also create ties, responsibilities and demands. Infrastructure and investment is not the best solution to your problems, because it creates new problems. It's merely 'a' solution, and even that depends what your character is after. I see plenty of characters in my games who wouldn't be caught dead trying to build "infrastructure" because it's just irrelevant to what they want in life - and what they want in life is often of a rather personal nature, based on personal relationships or self-improvement. Admittedly, my Solar games are fairly recent, having only started since Ex3, so a lot of what I'm saying I base on Sidereals, Lunars and Dragon-Bloods.

Well here's the thing: Sidereals are the perfect murderhobos.

Oh, they've got a home, but despite having the most well developed infrastructure of the Exalts their existence can be summed up as: you can play the politics of Heaven but you still go to the place where you are told to go to deal with whatever trouble is brewing up, and building up your own infrastructure is actively discouraged by both your superiors and the laws of the universe.

In fact, the more infrastructure the characters start off with, the less they desire it because they already have it. They all tend to have some form of superior who can tell them what they can and cannot do, while providing resources so that they don't have to go get their own out of necessity.

Solars on the other hand are given basically no support but what the characters can personally claw together and then told 'the whole world is out to get you'. They are given world shaking goals and don't start with nearly enough resources to do them. I don't know if you follow Kerisgame, but it recently came up that despite having an extradimensional storage space the size of a small city, Keris was in a situation where she went "Shit, I can't carry all my loot! I'm going to need to grab some followers to carry it for me!" (ironically it worked out not quite as intended, but she got stuck in a position where she just didn't have enough hands to do what she needed to do). And remember, the Solars are the flagship line, the ones who carry the core assumptions of the line with the rest being the deviation from the rule.

You're given goals that are too big for the tools you are given, but the tools you are given can let you iterate to the next level. You can use your personal skill to carve out kingdoms and empires that let you do the actually important things.
 
A good example in the 2e corebook is Salty Dog Method, before errata (correctly) fixed the charm; it specifically says it reduces enemy DVs as if it were a difficulty, as long as you're on a boat. The actual amount of reduction is negligible in the long run, but overall it's better to have good practices in place.
Er, Salty Dog Method says it reduces external penalties "including DV". It says nothing about difficulties. Are there there charms that act as generalized difficulty(not penalty) reducers? Because to me it seems like those would already be too game-breaking to allow.
 
(The epitome of that would be the Dragonblooded game I played in at uni, where the party of five Dragonblooded lead the effort to break the back of the Bull of the North's army while it made the long advance to Cherak through trickery, use of plague, and two instances where we got 10+ dragonblooded together and jumped an isolated Solar when they weren't expecting fully armoured and armed Dragonblooded murder teams.

Dragonblooded strongest there are. Dragonblooded true heroes.)
This is why my Malefactor Brilliant Eyes of Magnificent Lapis goes literally everywhere with an army of demons, wish empowered cultists and a full combat panolpy stored away in elsewhere at all times.
 
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Er, Salty Dog Method says it reduces external penalties "including DV". It says nothing about difficulties. Are there there charms that act as generalized difficulty(not penalty) reducers? Because to me it seems like those would already be too game-breaking to allow.

I can't name any off the top of my head, but yes there are difficulty reducers somewhere. I called out Salty Dog as a Penalty Negator that worked on DV (which was a bad thing).
 
Why? Infrastructure and investment provide assets, but they also create ties, responsibilities and demands. Infrastructure and investment is not the best solution to your problems, because it creates new problems. It's merely 'a' solution, and even that depends what your character is after. I see plenty of characters in my games who wouldn't be caught dead trying to build "infrastructure" because it's just irrelevant to what they want in life - and what they want in life is often of a rather personal nature, based on personal relationships or self-improvement. Admittedly, my Solar games are fairly recent, having only started since Ex3, so a lot of what I'm saying I base on Sidereals, Lunars and Dragon-Bloods.

Ideal Solar gameplay:
Step 1: "I am a person in Creation. I did something audacious and got a cosmic superweapon by lottery. I can now fulfil my dreams."
Step 2: "What do I want?"
Step 3: "Now that I know what I want, how do I get what I want?"
Step 4: <Gameplay>
Step 5: "Okay, now that I have utterly crushed whatever was in my way back in step 1 with the power of excellence and nuclear fusion, what else do I want? I can dream bigger now."
Step 6: Goto Step 3. Repeat (until killed in step 4).

I don't know about you, but personally, after enough iterations Step 3 will read "I need nation-state resources to do [INSERT_GOAL_HERE], so let's get a nation-state". Assuming, of course, you didn't get killed before you get to that point.
 
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Ideal Solar gameplay:
Step 1: "I am a person in Creation. I did something audacious and got a cosmic superweapon by lottery. I can now fulfil my dreams."
Step 2: "What do I want?"
Step 3: "Now that I know what I want, how do I get what I want? Oh right, nuclear fusion."
Step 4: "Okay, now that I have utterly crushed whatever was in my way back in step 1 with the power of nuclear fusion, what else do I want? I can dream bigger now."
Step 5: Goto Step 3. Repeat (until killed).

I don't know about you, but personally, after enough iterations Step 3 will read "I need nation-state resources, so let's get a nation-state".
Right now I am playing a Dawn Single Point/Awareness master. Her main goal in life is to follow what she sees as the Way of the Sword, mainly by achieving mastery of her prefered combat style and her five senses, plus some generic self-perfection pursuit ("I want to be as fast as the wind and as strong as the tide...") Then she wants to pass those teachings on to others. Right now she has a small dojo in the Hundred Kingdoms. She will probably want a bigger dojo. She wouldn't mind being associated with kings and ensuring that the one kingdom in which she resides is relatively stable, and doesn't get invaded by foreign armies. Eventually her achiements are probably going to be some huge palace-sized dojo in which hundreds of disciples teach their own disciples and she is at the to top of the mentor hierarchy as some kind of wise woman. Probably she will trade her services to great princes, when she wants to practice her skills. Because of her meditative focus and emphasis on self-control, Essence fever is something she can keep under control.

Acquiring a nation-state would be actively detrimental to her goals in life; it takes too much time and effort and gives her things she doesn't want or need. She's not exactly the most common PC type, but she isn't exactly unique either; I struggle to imagine the Night Caste in my Gloam game turn nation-scale.
 
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And then what happens when some asshole Terrestrial kills one of her favorite students and insults the style? Will she just take it? Or will she hunt him down on a revenge quest?

Revenge quest? Oh wait, he's scarpered off to his Satrapy/Family Estate/Seat of Realm Government. What do?
 
And yet, Omicron, she's going to end up actively involved in policy making the way murder hobo mercenaries can't.

Revenge quest? Oh wait, he's scarpered off to his Satrapy/Family Estate/Seat of Realm Government. What do?

Send in her ready made army of sword wielding disciples and/or leverage her hold on the local potentates to support her campaign?
 
And then what happens when some asshole Terrestrial kills one of her favorite students and insults the style? Will she just take it? Or will she hunt him down on a revenge quest?

Revenge quest? Oh wait, he's scarpered off to his Satrapy/Family Estate/Seat of Realm Government. What do?
Sometimes you gotta know when to fold' em.

Though, super-speed and super-senses would make it reasonably easy to track down and avenge the killer before he can cross the hundreds of miles to the Blessed Isle.
 
Send in her ready made army of sword wielding disciples and/or leverage her hold on the local potentates to support her campaign?
Sounds like a government to me. What's all that about not needing a nation-state?
Sometimes you gotta know when to fold' em.
Now that sounds like no Solar I've ever heard of.
Though, super-speed and super-senses would make it reasonably easy to track down and avenge the killer before he can cross the hundreds of miles to the Blessed Isle.
Bad news! You see, it happened miles away and days ago, and it took her one surviving disciple all that time just to get back and report to her! Luckily, he brought one of the blasphemer's personal effects with him, but...
 
Eventually her achiements are probably going to be some huge palace-sized dojo in which hundreds of disciples teach their own disciples and she is at the to top of the mentor hierarchy as some kind of wise woman. Probably she will trade her services to great princes, when she wants to practice her skills.
I only read the last two posts, so if there's a debate going on I have no context for it, but this sounds... pretty much like a mercenary nation state. I mean, you're describing Kung Fu Outer Heaven here. Wài Tiāntáng.

Plus, it's a Solar-run pseudo-nation state (okay, "organization"), which means it'll be better-run than its mortal neighbours, who will eventually feel threatened and ally to attack (only to be destroyed by a vast pyramid of lethal martial artists and their immortal sifu), or else sign ever-more binding mercenary and non-aggression pacts until they're basically absorbed by or fundamentally subject to this vast temple to ritualized, beautiful violence. That's even deliberately setting aside conflicts built into the setting, like the Immaculate Cult or the politics of various Martial Arts Gods.

I mean, hundreds of disciples each with their own disciples means you need farmers to produce food. It means you need blacksmiths for any weapon-training or gear. It means you need labourers to build housing and dig trenches and groundskeepers to maintain the dojos and servants to perform all the chores that there aren't enough disciples to spend on. It means traders and entertainers will come by to sell their wares to a host of teenagers, foreign agents will be sent to steal secrets or legitimately learn, noble children will be used to curry favour, and so on.

You could build these hypothetical palace-dojo in the middle of nowhere, and it wouldn't be the middle of nowhere for long.
 
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Sometimes you gotta know when to fold' em.

Sure. But given that you're a Dawn... Valour is going to be one of those things you probably hold dear to you, and that is an insult you can't easily let lie. Not least of which because having such an insult go unanswered is absolutely terrible for your reputation and encourages others to try and get at you.

Sounds like a government to me. What's all that about not needing a nation-state?

Fun thing; a government is an organisation that is different from businesses only in their goals and tools.
 
Right now I am playing a Dawn Single Point/Awareness master. Her main goal in life is to follow what she sees as the Way of the Sword, mainly by achieving mastery of her prefered combat style and her five senses, plus some generic self-perfection pursuit ("I want to be as fast as the wind and as strong as the tide...") Then she wants to pass those teachings on to over. Right now she has a small dojo in the Hundred Kingdoms. She will probably want a bigger dojo. She wouldn't mind being associated with kings and ensuring that the one kingdom in which she resides is relatively stable, and doesn't get invaded by foreign armies. Eventually her achiements are probably going to be some huge palace-sized dojo in which hundreds of disciples teach their own disciples and she is at the to top of the mentor hierarchy as some kind of wise woman. Probably she will trade her services to great princes, when she wants to practice her skills. Because of her meditative focus and emphasis on self-control, Essence fever is something she can keep under control.

Acquiring a nation-state would be actively detrimental to her goals in life; it takes too much time and effort and gives her things she doesn't want or need. She's not exactly the most common PC type, but she isn't exactly unique either; I struggle to imagine the Night Caste in my Gloam game turn nation-scale.

The point is that reasonably small-scale goals are, with the power of a Solar Exalt, extremely easy to acquire/achieve. Getting a dojo would be trivially easy. Achieving swordsmanship beyond the pinnacle of mortal skill is similarly easy. However, once you have those things, where do you go from there? One's dreams expand with the scope of one's capacity to achieve things, after all.

Let's take that palace-sized fortress-monastery with an army of thousands of warrior monks, for example, like a sun-themed version of the Shaolin Temple. This is a functional city-state, and the Dawn Caste ruling it is a Prince, in the Machiavellian sense. It's pretty easy to keep escalating from there: you have an army of thousands of warrior monks and a city-state to feed and defend, what do you do with it? Especially given the fact that the Immaculates want to burn it to the ground and salt the remains.
 
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Right now she has a small dojo in the Hundred Kingdoms. She will probably want a bigger dojo. She wouldn't mind being associated with kings and ensuring that the one kingdom in which she resides is relatively stable, and doesn't get invaded by foreign armies. Eventually her achiements are probably going to be some huge palace-sized dojo in which hundreds of disciples teach their own disciples and she is at the to top of the mentor hierarchy as some kind of wise woman.
Sounds like a government minister to me.
Or the Power behind the throne.
Especially when kingdom stability is something that she wants.
 
I only read the last two posts, so if there's a debate going on I have no context for it, but this sounds... pretty much like a mercenary nation state. I mean, you're describing Kung Fu Outer Heaven here. Wài Tiāntáng.

Plus, it's a Solar-run pseudo-nation state (okay, "organization"), which means it'll be better-run than its mortal neighbours, who will eventually feel threatened and ally to attack (only to be destroyed by a vast pyramid of lethal martial artists and their immortal sifu), or else sign ever-more binding mercenary and non-aggression pacts until they're basically absorbed by or fundamentally subject to this vast temple to ritualized, beautiful violence.

I mean, hundreds of disciples each with their own disciples means you need farmers to produce food. It means you need blacksmiths for any weapon-training or gear. It means you need labourers to build housing and dig trenches and groundskeepers to maintain the dojos and servants to perform all the chores that there aren't enough disciples to spend on. It means traders and entertainers will come by to sell their wares to a host of teenagers, foreign agents will be sent to steal secrets or legitimately learn, noble children will be used to curry favour, and so on. You could build these hypothetical palace-dojo in the middle of nowhere, and it wouldn't be the middle of nowhere for long.
Yes but Snow is not interested in any of that. She lives in a city; the farmers, traders and smiths already exist. They're already there, and they already feed nobles and armies and whatnot. She has a school. A big school, but she isn't creating a new government there. She's making that city more important, she is creating a place that will become a minor focus of trade and industry, and that will obviously affect the politics and economy of the region. But, uh... That's all. The local prince draws upon her disciples for elite soldiers, so has little reason to be threatened by her. She makes no claim to legal authority over her surroundings. She buys her food like every normal person, maybe in bulk price (probably her disciples actually have to feed themselves because bureaucratic overhead is complicated). She doesn't levy taxes. She doesn't have an army, ironically. She doesn't pass laws. She's an influential noblewoman whose actions affect the politics of her region. She isn't a prince.

I never put my character forward as an example of someone who wouldn't want any infrastructure and political power. Merely as someone for whom that political power eventually reaches a ceiling, a limit beyond which the character is not interested in increasing it. Not when she could instead pursue new secrets of martial skill and spend days in meditation in search of the perfect harmony of mind, body, soul and sword.

It's conceivable that because of her school's influence her kingdom might end up increasing in power and expanding much farther. That's the natural consequences that can arise from Solar actions; I definitely don't reject the idea of a Solar making an impact. But that's external to her: that's other people taking advantage of her actions, a prince hiring her students as mercenaries, noble families using her school to increase their power. It's not her playing the nation-building game; if anything, she is somebody else's asset.
Sure. But given that you're a Dawn... Valour is going to be one of those things you probably hold dear to you, and that is an insult you can't easily let lie. Not least of which because having such an insult go unanswered is absolutely terrible for your reputation and encourages others to try and get at you.
"That guy killed one of my students and insulted my school, then ran away hundreds of miles out of my reach as fast as he could to hide in the heart of a Realm stronghold" isn't exactly something that makes you look weaker. It's an insult, yes, and it might call for retribution depending on circumstances, but it might not - your enemy already half-conceded that you were a terrifying mofo. If that retribution can be delivered by one Dawn going Roaring Rampage on some Terrestrial asses, then that is what happens. If that requires turning the students into an army and marching on a satrapy, that would both be out-of-character and insane.
 
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