Eukie
Powered by furious Canadian redheads
So, that all said; whee magic D/s collar, yay.
I'm having flashbacks to the Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain...
General Exalted Thread
I'm having flashbacks to the Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain...
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
A quick google-search tells me this is from D&D's Book of Vile Darkness... Do I want to know more?
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Azrael
Sakura Saber
- Location
- Throne of Heroes
Probably because it's an enormous prison with arbitrary and unfair laws, everyone subscribes to Social Darwinism, with the caveat that some people are, 100% more powerful, smart, and all-around in a better position than millions of others. Hardly anyone can be described as 'nice' 'altruistic' or 'a good person', and even if they could, there's a 50-50 chance their idea of being nice is to murder you.
Plus the Yozi, as @notanautomaton mentioned, mean that unless it's profitable now or you're pretty sure a Primordial isn't gonna move through anytime soon, trying to invest in a property is more likely to result in massive losses than anything else.
While generally true, note that the moment Isidoros takes a stroll through your headquarters you're going to lose everything.
Or maybe you accidentally offended Ligier, or Ululaya suddenly decided to hate your guts, at which point a 3rd Circle suddenly 'happens' to you and you, again, lose everything.
Or you get so much economic might that a band of militant 2nd Circles join together and plunder your holdings, because they have swords and you have coin. And they want your coin.
- Location
- Virginia
Absolutely none of this is contingent on niceness or altruism.
Yes, this is the "high rates of depreciation" explanation for a lack of physical capital accumulation. It's much less convincing as an explanation for why we don't see too much accumulation of other forms of capital (organizational, social, financial). And it makes you wonder why the original holders of the land developed it in the first place.
The idea is not that all of Malfeas should be some kind of utopian free market paradise. It's just that we ought to observe cooperate / cooperate as a durable strategy there far more often than portrayed.
Economic power is fungible into, among other things, the ability to defend holdings. Or to just pay off attackers. No, none of these strategies are 100% reliable. But 100% reliability isn't necessary for a strategy to be successful enough that we see it played often.
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The problem here is that Malfeas is supposed to be a greedy hill climbing algorithm; pure social Darwinism.. Once you reach a peak you refuse to move. Hence why everyone constantly hits the Defect button and taking the short term profit is the smart choice. If you want to get ahead you need to turn Prisoner's Dilemma's into Elk Hunts (where the choice is cooperate and both benefit, both defect and get small benefits, or cooperate/defect where the defector gets a small benefit and the cooperator gets nothing) if you want there to be any chance of a cooperation coming to fruition.
- Location
- Virginia
Except if you take the analogy seriously, then things like Primordials periodically crushing layers make it far closer to simulated annealing. Which should periodically be finding high-cooperation maxima.
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Uh, guys? Makarios, the Sigil's Dreamer? Merchant of Dreams? Basically a straight-up trader. He "... bargains well, but his basic prices are fair. He wishes only to expand the ranks of those consecrated to him, to bring his goods to broader markets and, occasionally, to bring some interesting mortal artifact into his own possession". Games of Divinity, pg 102. There's plenty of support for demons who don't operate on slash-and-burn principles, and they do exist, it's just that slash-and-burn is the most efficient way to operate in Malfeas - concentrate your wealth in small locations where you can defend it, because large holdings in Hell are at far higher risk of getting wrecked by the natural hazards and rivals there, and long-term cults in Creation (as opposed to Sondok's style of slash-and-burn prayer culture) get tracked down by the Immaculate Faith and murdered.
Azrael
Sakura Saber
- Location
- Throne of Heroes
Right, let me put this another way:
There's totally successful groups of merchants and what-not.
It's just that, Malfeas was designed, both in universe and out, to be a pretty shitty place. The demons are broken and maddened, their oversouls likewise. For every Makarios or Ligier there's ten million desperate 1st Circles struggling to survive as long as the average creation-born.
Malfeas is a harsh place. The theoretical 2nd circle merchant group probably faces regular setbacks in the form of "Octavian thought he could cheat us, then threw his armies at us when we called him out on it. Now we've repelled him, but the deal fell through and we spent massive amounts on mercenaries" or "the shipment across Cecelyne got caught in a sandstorm; nothing was salvageable" or even "our best negotiator was summoned by a Lunar when we went to bargain with Ligier, we couldn't back out because that would insult him, so the deal went entirely in his favor".
And so on.
Malfeas, being an inherently shitty place with a lot of powerful actors and natural hazards, has a lot more of these things happening than would be expected, so while there are definitely merchant groups, trade coalitions, and so on, it's very much in spite of circumstances.
Everyone wants to get ahead, and some subscribe to the "I win as long as he loses more" philosophy of the Ebon Dragon.
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- Location
- Virginia
Quoting the writeup that led to this line of questions:
Someone decided to invest in those lands. Which means that doing so probably made a certain amount of sense. Why consistently then drain the investment before selling the remainder? Why not just sell the land whole - which should often be at a higher value, since otherwise the original holders would likely not have invested in improving them.
Sure, the particular circumstances or tastes of this demon may be the explanation in this case. But if I see a writeup of a demon, and I know that demon is a banker or whatever, I'm going to bet it includes a paragraph like this and I'll be right far more often than I'm wrong.
The out-of-universe explanation is obvious; this behavior fits the Malfeas aesthetic to a T. But I've been told over and over that one of the great things about Exalted is how it takes the internal consistency of its world seriously. See also: all the complaints about triremes.
Well, to me the presentation of Malfeas is just as biased and implausible as the use of triremes or the lack of crossbows.
greensun
You shall all burn beneath my light!!!
Have you not heard of economic Imperialism?
Bleeding an area dry of wealth, resources and people until its destitute is an actual thing that occurred in the real world; just look at the way the Spanish treated the America's or how the British sucked resources out of India with the simple goal of filling their coffers at the expense of the Region. Yes, they may have set up trade routes and the like but for the most part the English economic policy in India was purely exploitative.
Heck it still happens today! Have the cruel and compassion less exploitation of several african counties with unfair and un-sustainable loans and interest rates is happening as we speak, not to mention how the western world still takes the resources from the africa for a pittence or the sweatshop labour that is used to make everything from toys to clothes.
samdamandias
Apprentice Plane Wizard
And now I'm tempted to write up a demon that's a cross between a terraformer, disaster relief, and those guys that flip houses. They get released in a barren waste, a short time later they've made some stuff of value and want to sell it. Also for some reason really want to give them blue helmets, or at least a lot of blue around the head.
They need good Bureaucracy and Craft, and I'm not sure what else. They're probably first circles, which means they descend in swarms, almost like reverse-locusts, and work together with others of their kind, but jealously guard all that they have built until they get paid.
Vacancy, New Tenants Welcome.
Beachfront property!
Look at all that lovely open space!
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- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Balance them against hopping puppeteers - these are friendlier, and should therefore probably be worse at construction as a balance point.
... Malfeas forms new buildings automatically because Malfeas is a city. When a new building forms which has walls made of gold, you can send people in to peel all the gold off the walls and loot the emeralds which are embedded in the roof. Who said that someone "invested" in the land just to make it valuable? And as for why First Circles would "improve" land: Marottes build new buildings and improve them because that's what marottes do. You literally can't stop them. Lots of First Circle demons are basically semi-autonomous machinery. From the point of view of a Second Circle, making a breed of First Circle that collects valuable things to make a nest and then marching soldiers in to kill them and take their nests is just a form of farming. What do you care? You made the demons to collect resources and fight to the death to defend them so no one else would be able to take them, just as you made your soldiers to fight and die in your service.
And the ones that aren't? Are living there. When a blood ape gang-boss realises that he's on top of a rich seam and trades for some slave miner-demons, he's building a mining operation because he wants to profit and be able to live somewhere nice with neomah sprawled over his lap. He's a gang boss - he can't sell the land, because his power comes from being a gang boss who controls the land. For him, the assets are illiquid, so he needs to put effort into making it usable. And when a Second Circle seizes his land and moves in more efficient miners to strip-mine the place and then abandons it because they only wanted the minerals... well, sucks to be the locals. But a Second Circle wanted the resources and they can't do shit.
Gilded Age / Cyberpunk Malfeas, y'all.
They also should be worse than marottes because marottes do not work well together. They won't get the "one of them counts as ten workers for projects" benefit - not least because you want the termite-like vision of them swarming in.
- Location
- Virginia
The Gilded Age was not stable; the Gilded Age led directly into, for example, an era of high rates of unionization. Malfeas has existed for thousands of years. We should see tremendous diversity of social systems either in time or space or both. Some of which should include high-cooperation heterogeneous societies that are able to leverage their diversity into specialization into wealth into power into the ability to protect and spread themselves.
The reason the Gilded Age lasted was because the government effectively backed the monopolies. It was pretty stable until the local machines got bought out by the unions instead who could provide money and votes to go along with them. In this case the government is really just the strong demons that can push their muscle around such as the Second Circles. And contrary to unions, they don't really care about votes.
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Malfeas is fundamentally a prison culture, and its one where the Second Circle population is small. There are probably only a few thousand Second Circles, and several hundred Third Circles, in Hell. The population of a small town. Most demons are First Circles, and there are many, many things in Hell that First Circle societies can't protect themselves from. It doesn't matter how much you cooperate or how much sustainably-gathered wealth you throw into protecting your lands; you will not be able to protect large holdings as well as concentrated treasure-houses. And if two layers collide or Hegra passes overhead, you're just flat-out fucked.
Additionally, the Priests of Cecelyne actively and consciously keep things cruel and unfair, because Cecelyne is a cynical bitter asshole who has explicit laws that put the strong over the weak, and who may well deliberately send her Priests to attack stable First Circle societies that try to be fair or utopian out of sheer spite.
Additionally, the Priests of Cecelyne actively and consciously keep things cruel and unfair, because Cecelyne is a cynical bitter asshole who has explicit laws that put the strong over the weak, and who may well deliberately send her Priests to attack stable First Circle societies that try to be fair or utopian out of sheer spite.
That actually sounds like it could be the seed of a fantastic plot where a Infernal Exalted that emphasizes with the First Circle Demons or regularly interacts with them on a personal level is placed in conflict with the followers of Cecylene and the very social structure that gives the Infernal Exlated an elevated place within the hierarchy of hell.
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There is a reason that I have deliberately decided - on my own; @EarthScorpion had nothing to do with it beyond saying "lol, sure" - that one of the three "miniboss" officers on Keris's ship, when she gets it, will be a Priest of Cecelyne who is basically assigned there to keep an unofficial eye on her.
Fun fact! I went to the LAM [1] yesterday. And, well... my thought trains were set on certain predictable paths. And then this happened [2]. Commentary below the writeup:
Collar of Semastri
Artifact 3, Special Attune (mutual 4-dot Principles of love)
Who was Semastri? None can say, for only their name survives in the Age of Sorrows. But some light may be shed on their tastes by the artifact named for them. The Collar of Semastri is ancient beyond imagination - thought to date from before the Shogunate. An intricately patterned fabric band with a golden clasp, it is woven from threads of trust and submission; concepts made manifest through long-lost arts. When attuned by a couple whose love for one another is strong enough, it can be placed around the neck of one willing partner and sealed. As soon as the clasp locks, the collar sinks into its wearer's skin, becoming a tattoo that mirrors the beautiful knotted patterns and interwoven threads of the fabric. Should their love falter, it will deattune automatically.
Once on, the collar cannot be removed by characters other than the wearer or owner without the aid of powerful magic. Either partner may reflexively interrupt its effects at any time, ignoring any mental influence that would stop them from doing so. This does not come without cost - deactivating the collar for a scene causes both partners to lose 1wp from psychic shock, while reflexively breaking attunement without properly removing it causes a 3wp backlash. Should either partner not have sufficient temporary willpower to pay this cost, they take points of bashing damage instead.
Safewording in this way is not usually necessary, though. Under normal circumstances, the collar grants four boons to the partners who make use of it:
- Should one partner have a longer lifespan, the other ages physically at the same rate. Their own longevity is not increased, but they will remain outwardly young until they die.
- The collar is connected to an immaterial leash that leads to the owner's hand; visible to the couple and any other characters that can see the immaterial. The bearing and brightness of this ribbon of light indicate the direction and distance to each partner, allowing the couple to always find their way to one another. Anti-scrying wards interrupt the leash and prevent any powers that function through it.
- Within a radius of (master's Enlightenment x 10) metres, the leash is strong enough that the couple may communicate silently through thought and feeling - though their words are audible to those who can hear the immaterial. At this distance, the couple may take mental Defend Other actions for one another as though the defender was the target of any mental influence directed at their partner.
- Additionally, within this radius the attuned owner's will can subjugate their submissive's. The owner can freely subject the wearer to Compulsions and sensory Illusions - orders that must be obeyed, phantom touches or vivid waking fantasies. Unacceptable orders may not be given in this manner, and the Compulsions cannot prevent the wearer from reflexively breaking the collar's bond.
So yeah, I am pretty sure I worked out the balance and costs for this. It uses the Principle system, and 4-dot Principles are not cheap - that's "you killed my father; prepare to die" or "Tristain and Isolde" level territory; most social magic can only create 2- or 3-dot stuff without considerable effort applied. The dominant also has to care as much about the sub as the sub does about them, which limits potential abuse a bit more, and the safeword is baked in - the sub can always shatter the link; nothing can stop that (though then there's sub/top-drop and both need to be cuddled to regain wp).
I originally had trouble with mechanical balance, but eventually fixed the "socialite puts it on a fighty person and handles their MDV" problem by a) range-limiting it, b) making it interruptible by anti-scrying wards and most importantly c) making the leash a giant obvious glowing ribbon pointing to where the socialite is so that people can go stab them if they're trying to hide. So no hiding in a cave and sending your sub out to do stuff for you; you need to stay close and be findable and stabable. Rating-wise, it's pretty niche/narrow-focus and requires a willing subject, so 3 dots. Thanks to @Shyft for advice on that point as well as suggesting Special Attunement for the cost (though the Principles were my idea~).
So, that all said; whee magic D/s collar, yay.
[1] London Alternative Market - much kinky, many sexy, very fetish, wow.
[2] I'm not sorry. : 3
...I'm curious whether you had any characters of yours in mind when you wrote this up.
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Nope. Just off-the-top-of-my-head stuff....I'm curious whether you had any characters of yours in mind when you wrote this up.
Noboso, the Pickers of the Dead
Demon of the First Circle
Progeny of the Tangerine Usurer
Ugly squat demons, a noboso resembles an oversized centipede with a six-armed human torso sprouting from where it's head should be. Its salt-carapace is usually streaked with unspeakable fluids from its messy work, but both are obscured by the mounts of pillage that the beasts acquire. They're usually seen with a clay bottle of some inebriating drink and a hand-rolled cigarette in their mouth, although more successful ones find more expensive vices.
Nobosos follow in the wake of the armies of their maker. The last thing many demons have seen is a noboso approaching, a calculating gleam in its eyes and a hefted butcher's cleaver. Then - snicker-snack! - the noboso is onto them and with its many clawed legs and many hands it's taken the clothes, weapons, valuables and any profitable cuts of meat. The corpse is left for other, less discerning scavengers. A pack of pickers of the dead can work their way through a formation with prodigious speed, building up piles of purloined goods and butchered meat strapped to their long backs.
Despite their gory work and unseemly appearance, though, nobosos maintain a certain chirpy innocence that suggests they can't contemplate that anyone would see what they do as disgusting. After all, it's not like their victims were using them, right? And while they viciously pillage and dismember the wounded and dying, they are cowards that flee from strength. Their creator usually chains them with debt and they will work happily in the knowledge that they'll soon be free. Any day soon. You'll see. Of course, with their vices and habits of casual theft, Lehereca Va keeps a close hold on most of them with fines and chances to waste their profits.
Obscurity (3/3): Nobosos were made to do one thing. That's what sorcerers mostly put them to doing. Within Creation, of course, hungry ghosts are a risk but the salt they shed from their hide serves to hinder ghosts and obstruct their passage. That is another, unplanned use that the sorcerers of Creation have found for them - for most ghosts struggle to summon the strength of will to cross one of these demons. The nobosos reproduce when one of them falls on the battlefield and at least three of its compatriots come to hack it apart, three new demons crawling from the corpse. They gain Limit once a scene when put under imminent danger they cannot talk their way out of. Sometimes they worm out of Malfeas in their dozens when a battlefield lies entirely untouched by looters for all the warriors are dead or fled.
Physical: 2; Physical Styles: Kick Em When They're Down Style 6 (can only be used against targets with -4 wound penalty or greater), Burden-Bearing Beast Style 12, Gore-Smeared Graverobber Style 8
Social: 3; Social Styles: I Didn't Do Nuffin' Style 7
Mental: 2; Mental Styles: Wide-Eyed Cat Style 6, Taste of Profit Style 5
Enlightenment: 2;
Arms: SPD 5, ACC 0, DMG +2L, DEF 0, Rate 2 (Butcher's cleaver)
Armour: 8 (Salt Hide and Being So Covered In Loot It's Protective)
Join Battle 3; DV 4 (comes under Gore-Smeared Graverobber Style)
Accuracy: 2 (6 vs injured targets); Damage: 2L (6L vs injured targets)
Soak 9; Health Levels; 5 (3 bonus from Charms)
MDV 3; Urge: Pillage the Dead
Principles: My Own Safety (5), [A list of at least three different drugs they're personally addicted to] (2-4 each), Work (Honest Enjoyment) (3), My Wealth (1)
Fast Charms:
Tough Little Blighters
Keywords: None
Nobosos are hardened for their messy life. They have a bonus 3 health levels and have +4 dice to resist all Sickness effects.
Ragpicking Butcher Technique
Keywords: None
A noboso can work through a field of bodies and take everything of value long before the Promise Wind shows up. When the demon makes a Perception + Awareness roll to notice details about a dead or injured character, it receives precise information on the resale value of everything the target has on them (this includes the value of the character's body). Nobosos can pillage dead or dying characters as a Speed 5 Simple Miscellaneous action with a -1DV penalty which can be flurried, removing everything of value as it saws off rings from fingers and hacks off choice cuts of meat with blinding speed. An average noboso can process several hundred bodies an hour, mostly delayed by their need to find somewhere safe to stash their haul when they run out of space on their back.
Demon of the First Circle
Progeny of the Tangerine Usurer
Ugly squat demons, a noboso resembles an oversized centipede with a six-armed human torso sprouting from where it's head should be. Its salt-carapace is usually streaked with unspeakable fluids from its messy work, but both are obscured by the mounts of pillage that the beasts acquire. They're usually seen with a clay bottle of some inebriating drink and a hand-rolled cigarette in their mouth, although more successful ones find more expensive vices.
Nobosos follow in the wake of the armies of their maker. The last thing many demons have seen is a noboso approaching, a calculating gleam in its eyes and a hefted butcher's cleaver. Then - snicker-snack! - the noboso is onto them and with its many clawed legs and many hands it's taken the clothes, weapons, valuables and any profitable cuts of meat. The corpse is left for other, less discerning scavengers. A pack of pickers of the dead can work their way through a formation with prodigious speed, building up piles of purloined goods and butchered meat strapped to their long backs.
Despite their gory work and unseemly appearance, though, nobosos maintain a certain chirpy innocence that suggests they can't contemplate that anyone would see what they do as disgusting. After all, it's not like their victims were using them, right? And while they viciously pillage and dismember the wounded and dying, they are cowards that flee from strength. Their creator usually chains them with debt and they will work happily in the knowledge that they'll soon be free. Any day soon. You'll see. Of course, with their vices and habits of casual theft, Lehereca Va keeps a close hold on most of them with fines and chances to waste their profits.
Obscurity (3/3): Nobosos were made to do one thing. That's what sorcerers mostly put them to doing. Within Creation, of course, hungry ghosts are a risk but the salt they shed from their hide serves to hinder ghosts and obstruct their passage. That is another, unplanned use that the sorcerers of Creation have found for them - for most ghosts struggle to summon the strength of will to cross one of these demons. The nobosos reproduce when one of them falls on the battlefield and at least three of its compatriots come to hack it apart, three new demons crawling from the corpse. They gain Limit once a scene when put under imminent danger they cannot talk their way out of. Sometimes they worm out of Malfeas in their dozens when a battlefield lies entirely untouched by looters for all the warriors are dead or fled.
Physical: 2; Physical Styles: Kick Em When They're Down Style 6 (can only be used against targets with -4 wound penalty or greater), Burden-Bearing Beast Style 12, Gore-Smeared Graverobber Style 8
Social: 3; Social Styles: I Didn't Do Nuffin' Style 7
Mental: 2; Mental Styles: Wide-Eyed Cat Style 6, Taste of Profit Style 5
Enlightenment: 2;
Arms: SPD 5, ACC 0, DMG +2L, DEF 0, Rate 2 (Butcher's cleaver)
Armour: 8 (Salt Hide and Being So Covered In Loot It's Protective)
Join Battle 3; DV 4 (comes under Gore-Smeared Graverobber Style)
Accuracy: 2 (6 vs injured targets); Damage: 2L (6L vs injured targets)
Soak 9; Health Levels; 5 (3 bonus from Charms)
MDV 3; Urge: Pillage the Dead
Principles: My Own Safety (5), [A list of at least three different drugs they're personally addicted to] (2-4 each), Work (Honest Enjoyment) (3), My Wealth (1)
Fast Charms:
Tough Little Blighters
Keywords: None
Nobosos are hardened for their messy life. They have a bonus 3 health levels and have +4 dice to resist all Sickness effects.
Ragpicking Butcher Technique
Keywords: None
A noboso can work through a field of bodies and take everything of value long before the Promise Wind shows up. When the demon makes a Perception + Awareness roll to notice details about a dead or injured character, it receives precise information on the resale value of everything the target has on them (this includes the value of the character's body). Nobosos can pillage dead or dying characters as a Speed 5 Simple Miscellaneous action with a -1DV penalty which can be flurried, removing everything of value as it saws off rings from fingers and hacks off choice cuts of meat with blinding speed. An average noboso can process several hundred bodies an hour, mostly delayed by their need to find somewhere safe to stash their haul when they run out of space on their back.
You're first statement is why I don't see anything inherently more "transhuman" about Infernal Exalted than any of the others. The only exception I can think of is the possibility of them becoming new Yozis or something along that line. And going with this, I just don't see anything that sets Exalted in general apart than any other game or creative work of fiction where humans get super powers, magic, or becomes a supernatural creature that lends it self toward transhumanism. I guess this might be the definition of such, but lately it seems to be a term used to somehow make the acquiring of superhuman abilities seem deeper than just calling them superhuman abilities. IMO Exalted gets into the consequences of such on both a personal, societal, and spiritual level better than other games, but again if it's going to be held up higher than similar works because this is transhumanism, I'm not convinced yet.
- Location
- Virginia
The problem here is that transhumanism isn't intrinsically distinct from all these things even outside of RPGs. And yet we don't look at, I dunno, Avatar: The Last Airbender and identify it as transhumanist. Because it's a matter of emphasis and flavor. Infernals focuses a lot on becoming-something-else. Solars are far more subtle. So I think it's fair to describe Exalted as having transhumanist themes, and to identy those most strongly with Infernals and Alchemicals.
The Devil-Tiger path is the most transhuman aspect of the Infernal charmset. It's a series of charms that allow you to remake yourself, such that you become a living embodiment of yourself, a Mythos with your own self. When you were human, your body was determined by environment and genetics, but now your body becomes purely an expression of how you view yourself. When you were human, you understood and related to the world through the lens of whichever culture you were born into, but now you understand and relate to the world through a set of charms customized to your own biases and (sub)conscious assumptions. That's far more transhuman than anything the Solars or Abyssals do.