Tautologically, the Rule Zero Fallacy is a fallacy when it is used as a fallacy. It's used to excuse things that shouldn't exist in the first place because you can houserule them away, which is a fallacy because even if you can houserule them they still have no business having been written. That's the fallacy. When it's not applied as a fallacy, it's just... Rule Zero.
Which is to say, this entire discussion is predicated upon the assumption that Dual Magnus Prana is bad, and so "the ST can choose to ignore it" is a fallacy because the ST shouldn't have to reject it in the first place, it shouldn't exist.
It's very easy to have the high ground in an argument when you assume your premise. Here's the thing: I reject that Dual Magnus Prana is bad. I think it's good. Therefore, my argument is not "it isn't bad because the ST can deny it;" my argument is "it's good, and if you disagree you can choose to ignore it."
That's not the Rule Zero Fallacy; that's just... Rule Zero. Rule Zero isn't bad.
This is the point Fenrir is laboriously trying to get at. "You can ignore it" here is not a fallacy because he believes this thing should be right there in the corebook. You saying "but I don't want them to be!" is not calling him out on a fallacy, it's just... Having a disagreement about what should be in the core.
Tautologically, the Rule Zero Fallacy is a fallacy when it is used as a fallacy. It's used to excuse things that shouldn't exist in the first place because you can houserule them away, which is a fallacy because even if you can houserule them they still have no business having been written. That's the fallacy. When it's not applied as a fallacy, it's just... Rule Zero.
Which is to say, this entire discussion is predicated upon the assumption that Dual Magnus Prana is bad, and so "the ST can choose to ignore it" is a fallacy because the ST shouldn't have to reject it in the first place, it shouldn't exist.
It's very easy to have the high ground in an argument when you assume your premise. Here's the thing: I reject that Dual Magnus Prana is bad. I think it's good. Therefore, my argument is not "it isn't bad because the ST can deny it;" my argument is "it's good, and if you disagree you can choose to ignore it."
That's not the Rule Zero Fallacy; that's just... Rule Zero. Rule Zero isn't bad.
This is the point Fenrir is laboriously trying to get at. "You can ignore it" here is not a fallacy because he believes this thing should be right there in the corebook. You saying "but I don't want them to be!" is not calling him out on a fallacy, it's just... Having a disagreement about what should be in the core.
I object to the idea that this is a necessary tradeoff. Communication that is both clear and evocative is a mark of good writing - I would go so far as to call it thehallmark of good writing. The idea that you must balance one against the other is flatly absurd to me. Writers can do better than that. Good writers have done better than that.
Celestial Bliss Trick is written from the idea that it's unlikely that someone is going to read it and come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea to use the Charm to go out and rape people into agreeing with them in a group game, and that anyone who actually tries that has problems no game rule is going to fix, so it's not worth trying.
...
It doesn't think that ambiguity is bad, that the table will figure out what works best for them, because some of these conflicts work better when different tables solve them their own way.
Third Edition also doesn't really care about the weird edge cases that might happen from certain Charms or certain kinds of players, because one of the ideas behind it is that you will never, ever be able to stop all of those things from happening, and that it's better to try to make it as good as you can with how its intended to work, and if some edge cases happen where games fall apart or people get in arguments, well, that was going to happen no matter what.
These all seem to be a related issue, in that you seem to be assuming deliberate malice of forethought when the discussion around CBT and ambiguity is, and for the most part always has been, about the unconscious behaviour that it encourages. I know I've talked to you before about this. Mechanics shape play is game design 101, and the issue is not that arseholes will come across ambiguous wordings and abuse them. You're right, that will always happen, it can't be stopped, and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. You are tilting at windmills and/or strawmanning, here.
The issue is that newbies who do not know any better will come to the system and they will play it how it seems to work, and they need the books to hold their hands in edge cases, because if they did not need that help they wouldn't be buying the rulebooks, would they?
You do not, as a professional, write a book as an aid for players old and new that, when confusing edge cases come up, shrugs and says "iunno, you figure it out." That is lazy, unprofessional and cruel.
For experienced players, this is because as Rich Burlew so eloquently put it, "I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want." but inexperienced players need the books' support in answering edge cases, both to ease them smoothly into playing the game and also to serve as case studies in how to deal with edge cases, so they can find their feet in understanding how to, you know, play the game.
I'll be honest I never considered that anyone would ever play Exalted by hand why would you roll that many dice by hand play near a computer or phone with a roller app. Call it one of the tradeoffs.
It's an off the cuff remark, but Holden remarked a while back that his ideal for playing Lunars is "having to roll your dice with a bucket."
I'd hesitate to read too much into that. It was an off the cuff remark and it was a long time ago, but by the same stroke I would not be quick to assume that Exalted 3e is not meant to be played with physical dice. In that case, yeah, rolling 20 dice (whether all at once or via re-rolls) is fun on occasion, but making it a major part of how the game is played is irritating and clumsy for a lot of people. I would posit that even people who enjoy rolling lots of dice find large handfuls lose their charm when it's done commonly.
Holden was horrified that you had that interpretation to begin with and were legit talking about it as a thing that might be done. It's somewhat naive, given how awful people can be, but quite frankly I don't find his reaction to be that ridiculous. Inappropriately rude, admittedly, but given that he was seeing people talking about something incentivizing rape, like, 'Hmm, this seems tactically valueable, people will start raping with this', yeah. I can see why he reacted as he did.
Dude, his third fucking post in reaction to people voicing concern at a Charm that incentivises rape being in the corebook was, and I quote, "I dunno, these threads serve a helpful purpose in letting me know who not to get onto elevators with at conventions."
To repeat: One side of the argument was people going, "uhh, this is skeevy as hell, can this get fixed please?" and Holden's answer was to declare that the fault was on us for noticing that. "Inappropriately rude" does not begin to cover it.
Dude. You are the ST. Anything you don't like is out. Having players bitch at you because you removed a thing you didn't like is not the game's problem, it's yours and your group's. Not all Charms are written to appeal to everyone, and the game is written assuming the ST will remove it if he hates it that much, and let his group know ahead of time that, 'hey, this is a game without Dual-Magnus Prana or God-King's Shrike' or whatever. If that doesn't work for you, well, sucks but that's not a compelling reason to remove a Charm they like from the game.
Point to me where this is in the text, because all I see is the same Rule 0 at the start of the systems section, and I can tell you with absolute certainty, that is not sufficient to put across the paradigm you are suggesting. Damn near every RPG has that rule, and the overwhelming, unquestioned majority of the time, the rules are taken as gospel exactly as Sandamandias said. It is a lot harder to take something out than it is to put it in. If you don't find that to be so, then good for you, but you are absolutely the aberration in this, and the book does not seem to sufficiently support your interpretation.
I mean, Holden has talked about this exact thing before with regards to the laws of Yu-Shan. Compass of Celestial Directions: Yu-Shan spent half a page or so early in the book telling you that the laws of Heaven are a sham and rarely enforced, then all throughout the rest of the book it tells readers what those laws are and the punishments for breaking them. Result? The overwhelming majority of the playerbase ignored that early mention and went with the assumption that Heaven's law enforcement continued to function more or less normally, because that half-page about corruption was way back at the start, forgotten and overwhelmed by all that followed. The exact same thing happens here, only worse. Exalted 3e spends three paragraphs telling you that you can do with the rules as you like, and then it spends four hundred and fifty pages (more than the length of CoCD: Yu Shan twice over) telling you These Are The Rules. Which do you think people are going to give more weight to? 'Cause, the evidence is clear, considerable, considerably clear and clearly considerable.
Here's the thing: I reject that Dual Magnus Prana is bad. I think it's good. Therefore, my argument is not "it isn't bad because the ST can deny it;" my argument is "it's good, and if you disagree you can choose to ignore it."
Could you please elaborate on why DMP, GKS, and the craft mini-game (I do apologize if I'm misremembering and you merely tolerate the new crafting paradigm) are good?
What, exactly do they add to the game? What sort of intersting stories do they incentivize me to tell as written? Not as nerfed, not with these restrictions I would place at my table, but as written in 3E core?
There are plenty of arguments about why they are bad, but if you have some about why they are good, I want to read them.
On an unrelated note, I think I understand the rough order of dice effects. Firstly, we declare charms of course. Then we roll. Then all the rerolls and whatnot based solely on our own pools take place. Then things that trigger based on stuff in the opponents pool go off at the same time, possibly taking us back to step two if we're really unlucky. At last we have the total, provided that neither of us pops an "After rolling" charm. Is that about right?
Could you please elaborate on why DMP, GKS, and the craft mini-game (I do apologize if I'm misremembering and you merely tolerate the new crafting paradigm) are good?
What, exactly do they add to the game? What sort of intersting stories do they incentivize me to tell as written? Not as nerfed, not with these restrictions I would place at my table, but as written in 3E core?
There are plenty of arguments about why they are bad, but if you have some about why they are good, I want to read them.
I like Dual-Magnus Prana as an ultimate expression of craft because I find the concept incredibly cool. The brilliant Crafter/Sorcerer who seems to come back from death itself, because when the fights are dangerous it's not their real body you're fighting. I like God-King's Shrike for the ability to, with your mastery over the world itself, call doom and destruction down by tracing out the very doom you are creating, as well as the potential for it to be far, far worse than what you were expecting to call. I like the idea of playing a Sorcerer-Queen who, in a fit of wrath, calls down a great curse upon a rival kingdom, but instead of the earthquakes and tsunamis and drought she expected to bestow, she finds that the stars themselves are aligning and an ancient prophecy is being fulfilled, as heavy panics because seven great beasts are walking out of various Shadowlands centuries before they were predicted, and all their careful planning has been undone because oh shit this Solar just warped and twisted the world way the hell outside of anything Fate could predict and now everyone's scrambling and oh god what have I done.
I like craft because I like to have crafting constantly be incentivized, I like earning points, I like being able to feel like Craft is a big important intricate work my character is doing and that I'm getting all these ideas for artifacts as I craft a sword or build a suit of armor or whatever. I find the crafting system to be genuinely fun to interact with and am looking forward to using it in play, because systems like that are genuinely fun for me. I like earning points, I like crafting things, I like feeling like the things I craft are actively helping me do the things I want to do, I like having the various levels of projects and points. It's fun.
I object to the idea that this is a necessary tradeoff. Communication that is both clear and evocative is a mark of good writing - I would go so far as to call it thehallmark of good writing. The idea that you must balance one against the other is flatly absurd to me. Writers can do better than that. Good writers have done better than that.
I don't think that it was a necessary one so much as one you can choose, but I also think that in most cases 3E balances clear with evocative pretty well. In others it does drop the ball, but generally I haven't had to ask my various STs about basic interaction stuff.
These all seem to be a related issue, in that you seem to be assuming deliberate malice of forethought when the discussion around CBT and ambiguity is, and for the most part always has been, about the unconscious behaviour that it encourages. I know I've talked to you before about this. Mechanics shape play is game design 101, and the issue is not that arseholes will come across ambiguous wordings and abuse them. You're right, that will always happen, it can't be stopped, and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. You are tilting at windmills and/or strawmanning, here.
The issue is that newbies who do not know any better will come to the system and they will play it how it seems to work, and they need the books to hold their hands in edge cases, because if they did not need that help they wouldn't be buying the rulebooks, would they?
You do not, as a professional, write a book as an aid for players old and new that, when confusing edge cases come up, shrugs and says "iunno, you figure it out." That is lazy, unprofessional and cruel.
EDIT: Dammit I misread this at first give me a second. In the more general cases of things going wrong, yeah, more newbie support would definitely be a good thing, but I also think that the way Third Edition is designed, in my experience, it's really hard to actually, seriously fuck up. I waffle back and forth on this one because I see both sides of the equations. I think, in most cases, the learning curve is stiffer than it really should be but it's also not, outside of a few pitfalls, bad enough to really fuck a group up unless the group doesn't know each other that well or has pre-existing issues. Most of the confusion is pretty minor, and when it isn't it tends to be high-level enough that it'll be awhile before it comes up. And then there are one or two serious major freaking issues that piss me the hell off but it was a giant project and hopefully it'll be fixed when the final thing comes out.
Point to me where this is in the text, because all I see is the same Rule 0 at the start of the systems section, and I can tell you with absolute certainty, that is not sufficient to put across the paradigm you are suggesting. Damn near every RPG has that rule, and the overwhelming, unquestioned majority of the time, the rules are taken as gospel exactly as Sandamandias said. It is a lot harder to take something out than it is to put it in. If you don't find that to be so, then good for you, but you are absolutely the aberration in this, and the book does not seem to sufficiently support your interpretation.
Given that one of THE big themes of Exalted is "no takebacks" (along with "there is a difference between can and should") I'd say that Dual Magnus Prana is in fact objectively bad as an effect in Exalted, and if you think it's good design space you don't understand the themes of the game.
Yes, I am aware that I am saying the current devs don't understand the themes of the gameline they are writing - that's been apparent for quite a while.
Given that one of THE big themes of Exalted is "no takebacks" (along with "there is a difference between can and should") I'd say that Dual Magnus Prana is in fact objectively bad as an effect in Exalted, and if you think it's good design space you don't understand the themes of the game.
Yes, I am aware that I am saying the current devs don't understand the themes of the gameline they are writing - that's been apparent for quite a while.
You can't resurrect someone who dies. But you can avoid dying. You can be so prepared that you cheat death when it comes for you. This is no protection for your family, though. This won't save your friends if the Wyld Hunt that killed you kills them too. This won't bring you back if they find you again before you can make another simulacrum. This won't stop your mortal lover from dying because you stabbed them in a fit of Curse-induced rage.
This isn't a take-back. You were just well-prepared and skilled and thinking ahead, so you avoided death this time.
Narratively, yes (except for it automagically chumping Awareness dudes, which is dumb).
As it will interface with play, it functions as a takeback. You don't need to prepare it ahead of time, commit resources, or even suspect you might be in trouble. You can just do it once you lose.
This is one of the cooler ideas I have seen for solving the problems of Martial Arts, so I am quite intrigued.
That being said I am rather curious as to what a finished Martial Art would look like in this set up, as well as how to balance them against artifacts and each other given the questionable writing of many existent artifacts?
I'm glad you asked non-hypothetical actual person! Here are some examples. Note: This are balanced around Exalted 2.5E baseline stats. In effect, a two dot artifact tended to add 2~4 points to the base weapon (usually in Damage and Defense) while an artifact 3 added 5~8 points (again, mostly Damage and Defense) plus the Overwhelming tag in most cases. Also note that because Martial Arts does not include Hearthstone slots I tend to add between 2~3 Special Effects per Style.
Keep in mind that Martial Arts are considered Artifacts and thus they are subject to the normal rules for stacking equipment bonuses. If a Style grants you a bonus to Soak or Move actions you can't stack that effect with other artifacts which grants bonuses to Soak or Movement (such as, say, armor). Stacking with Charms is fine unless the Style explicitly forbids it or the Charm explicitly counts as creating Equipment (such as Glorious Solar Plate).
For the most part a Martial Artist, unlike someone carrying dozens of artifacts, is not immediately Obvious to all who see them. However this isn't entirely true. Becoming a Martial Artists isn't just learning a few skills, it is a dramatic reforging of your person into a weapon and this leaves signs that the trained can discern. Forever after learning a Style it will mark you, in some ways this is small and in others large. The way you move, the method of your breathing, the callouses on your hands and feet, the way your eyes react... all of these things measure a Martial Artist as opposed to a mundane soldier. Higher ranking styles (Rating 3+) often also have minor magical aesthetic effects as well, such as the slightly iridescent sheen to a Snake Stylists sweat or the tiny fangs in a Tiger Stylists mouth or the enhanced Aspect Markings of a Fifth Coil Dragon Style Master. These become more pronounced when you use learn styles.
Anyone who can see your character can make a Perception + War roll as a Misc action (this is an active check, not a reflexive awareness or sense). The difficulty of this rolls is 6 - total Martial Arts Style dots (automatic at 6+ dots or a single N/A style). If they succeed they know you are a martial artist and may identify your specific style(s) with an Intelligence + War, Lore or Occult roll with a difficulty based on how rare the style is, Dragon Styles are very easy to identify while an Infernal Monster will be known to any but wise Sidereal sifu. If you are actively using your Martial Arts the difficulty of the identification roll drops by one for each Study action the character takes. The difficulty to both notice and identify martial arts is halved if your Anima Banner reaches the Iconic level, as becoming a Martial Artist almost always manifests visibly in your anima.
Charms such as All Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight or similar effects which instantly reveal Artifacts also reveal you as a Martial Artist and give their usual bonus to identifying the specific Styles you know.
Being identified as a Martial Artist does not automatically out you as Anathema, anymore than carrying an Artifact would. It does mean that people will know you have had supernatural training from a powerful patron, however and if they can identify the style they may guess at the patron in question (try not to let them know you learned Black Claw style). Enough mortals and godbloods are running around with Unorthodox Martial Arts that Immaculates will not treat you too badly, baring the real fanatics. Expect to be singled out for proselytizing on the dangers of commercing with spirits, however and perhaps being offered 'retraining' by that mysterious monk on the mountain if he 'sees great potential' in you. It's probably best to avoid him.
Snake Style (Martial Arts ***)
A classic style of the Animal Styles that was popular during the High First Age and early shogunate. The Animal Styles fell out of favor over time for their association with the Lunar Anathema and the growing orthodoxy of the Coils of the Dragon as the only legitimate style for Dragonblooded practioners. Because most mortals could never learn this style due to its Essence requirement this survived mostly among Lunars, animal spirits, commoner Fair Folk and Sidereal grandmasters. Any of these sifu would be willing to teach a young Solar this Style in exchange for a favor of equal value.
This style is considered one of the 'bread and butter' styles of the First Age. Designed to be an all around combat method for those who did not have the inclination to develop their personal Charms or wished to go around clad in heavy armor and carrying multiple weapons. The martial artist develops the sinuous movements of the snake, learning to recoil from attacks and strike from a surprising distance.
Snake Style Speed 5 Accuracy +1 Damage +2B/2 Defense +3 Rate 3 Attune 5m Tags O, P, N
Special Effects
Essence Fangs and Scales: For a cost of 1m as a Reflexive action you may inflict Lethal damage with your unarmed attacks or soak Lethal Damage with your full Stamina + Essence.
Snake Strikes the Heel: If you are struck for at least one level of post soak damage you may make a Snake Style attack as a Counterattack for a cost of 4m. You may use this effect no more than once per opponent until your DV resets.
Uncoiling Serpent Prana: The Martial Artists may activate this Charm as a Reflexive effect when his DV refreshes, costing 5m, 1wp committed for the combat. For the rest of the battle an Obvious streamer of essence follows in the wake of the Martial Artists hands like a coiling serpent and this streamer snaps out like an adder head. This allows the Martial Artists to make Ranged Snake Style attacks with a range of 5yrds (ie, no penalty to 5yrds, -1 external penalty to 10yrds and -2 external penalty to 15yrds).
Recommended Exotic Training Requirements (pick any three): Having a Sifu who knows this Style, Being an Essence 3+ Celestial Exalted student, Being taught by a Lunar, Spirit or Fair Folk with snake-like qualities, training in the Eastern Bordermarches or a Rating 3+ Wood aspect Manse or Demense, enduring a dose of Coral Snake Venom without use of Charms or other magic, having a Snake tattoo placed on your body in an obvious location (-1 to Identify Martial Artist difficulties).
Tiger Style (Martial Arts ***)
Considered the most dramatically dangerous of the classical Animal Styles this Style has, like its cousins, fallen out of favor in Creation as a whole. This style is considered unorthodox in most Realm affiliated lands though it is taught by a wide variety of spirits, fair folk, Lunars and Sidereals patrons. The Cult of the Illuminated particularly favors teaching young Solars this style for its dramatic imagery and the association of tigers with nobility and grace. Also, its good for hiding.
Tiger Stylists inherit the power and majesty of the animal their style draws from. They also gain a bit of the tigers ability to blend in to natural environments, allowing them to pounce on opponents when least expected. This style focuses on taking out an opponent in one blow, and as such does not much favor defense. For this reason it is not recommended for those looking for a form of self defense and instead is favored by assassins, thieves and Exalted looking to keep a low profile.
Tiger Style Speed 5 Accuracy +1 Damage +5B/2 Defense -2 Rate 3 Attune 5m Tags: O, N
Special Effects
Stalking Cat Movement Meditation: The Martial Artist gains a +3 die bonus on Stealth rolls made to move without being seen. This bonus does not stack with Specialty dice and does not apply to Reestablish Surprise rolls or any roll made against an opponent who has become aware of the Martial Artist's presence by any means.
Raging Tiger Pounce: The Martial Artists may activate this whenever they take a Jump or Dash action immediately before an attack as a Reflexive Step 1 action. Doing so costs 3m. This converts the damage of a Tiger Style attack to +7L/3 and if any damage is rolled after soak the opponent suffer a Knockdown effect.
Spine Shattering Bite: The Martial Artist may choose to activate this effect as a Reflexive Step 1 action costing 5m, 1wp. If the attack rolls a single level of post-soak damage the Martial Artist grabs and rips the opponent, inflicting a Crippling effect which increase the target Wound Penalty by one stage to a max of -4 (so a -0 Health level becomes a -1 Health Level, a -1 becomes a -2 and a -2 becomes a -4 but -4 does not become Incapacitated). This effect does not stack with any other effect that increase Wound Penalties.
Recommended Exotic Training Requirements (pick any three): Having a Sifu who knows this Style, Being an Essence 3+ Celestial Exalted student, Being taught by a Lunar, Spirit or Fair Folk with tiger-like qualities, training in the Southern Bordermarches or a Rating 3+ Fire aspect Manse or Demense, defeating a tiger in unarmed combat without use of Charms of other magic, having a Tiger tattoo placed on your body in an obvious location (-1 to Identify Martial Artist difficulties).
Falling Blossom Style (Martial Arts **)
This style is relatively common among mortals, many of whom are 'inducted' into this style through cults to powerful spirits, fair folk, demons or Anathema. The Immaculate Order does not quite consider this Style Unorthodox, especially since the rumors that the entire Silent Legion is trained in this style are hard to stamp out, but they do consider teaching it to mortals to be a very serious matter. Mortals are taught that accepting this style is a great service to the Dragonblooded and one virtually guaranteed to elevate the martial artist in the next life. Most Threshold savants consider this hypocrisy on the part of the Order, who is quick to denounce its use among anyone who doesn't fall in line with Immaculate teachings.
Students of this style are almost universally taken from the poor and destitute, those who have nothing to lose and will give their all for someone who can raise them from dust and give them a purpose worth dying for. They adopt a stoic demeanor and are usually covered in multiple scars. Unlike other martial artists a Fallen Blossom stylist often carries a short dagger with them as they lack much in the way of offensive punch.
Fallen Blossom Style Speed 4 Accuracy +0 Dam +0B Defense +4 Attune 3m or special* Tags: N
*Unenlightened mortals may learn this Style but doing so doubles their aging rate.
Special Effects
Living Shield Technique: The Martial Artist gains +1DV when using the Defend Other action. Further the Martial Artist prevents Unexpected Attacks on the person they are using Defend Other on that would occur due to being surrounded by multiple attackers.
Verse of the Martyr: When reduced to Incapacitated by damage the Martial Artist may choose to continue fighting. Doing so negates all wound penalties but causes the user to suffer -1 health levels per turn until they reach (-Stamina) and die. Once the Martial Artist chooses to activate this he can not prevent his own death, even if he is healed by any effect he continues to lose one lethal health level each turn until he dies.
(Note: Fallen Blossom Stylists count as double when purchased as Followers.)
Recommended Exotic Training Requirements (pick any two): Having a Sifu who knows this Style, being an Unenlightened Mortal with Conviction 3+, being scarred by training (-1 Appearance, -1 difficulty to identify Martial Artist), being taught by a Celestial Exalted of Essence 3+, being an orphan, being in love with your teacher.
White Veil Style (Martial Arts *)
Persistent rumors of a secret society of martial artists who induct wealthy socialites into their numbers in order to influence politics throughout the Threshold are, of course, ridiculous. The very idea that a group of mortals and Outcaste Dragonblooded would use physical charms and subtle poisoning to protect their interests could not be true. If such a society did exist it certainly wouldn't recruit from the beautiful and most harmless looking members of society. Any mysterious connections to House Nellens are nothing more than slanderous lies by more powerful Great Houses.
If Stylists of this school did exist, which they don't, they would be noted for their innocent charm and how harmless they appear. They would not be noted for making long graceful movements with one arm that conceal the motions of the other. They would not be content to be noticed, but ignored. They are note noted for having one sharpened nail.
White Veil Style Speed 6 Accuracy +2 Damage 1L* Defense -2 Rate 1 Attune -** Tags: P, N
* This attack never does more than 1L damage and is typically inflicted with a sharpened nail. This attack is defeated by any amount of Hardness. This certainly doesn't explain why Dragonblooded consider artifact armor acceptable attire for a party.
** Mortals may be taught White Veil Style at no penalty.
Special Effects
Blinded By Laughter: The difficulty to identify the Martial Artist as a Martial Artist is 6, so long as he knows no other styles and is not able to use Essence. Otherwise calculate as normal.
Birdsong Over Blades: The Martial Artists spends 1wp when he makes a White Veil Style attack as a reflexive step 1 action. If the attack hits and does one health level of post soak damage the Martial Artist may choose to not inflict any damage and instead introduce one dose of any poison he has on his person when the attack is made. Further if he uses this effect and flurries a Reestablish Surprise action and succeed on the second action the opponent does not realize he has been attacked provided the attack inflicted no damage.
Recommended Exotic Training Requirements (pick any one): Having a Sifu who knows this Style, being taught by a Dragonblooded or Sidereal of Essence 3+, having two dots of Specialties between Sex Appeal or Appearing Innocent.
Prismatic Arrangements of Creation Style (Martial Arts *****)
This Charm is considered the pinnacle of Martial understanding by the Sidereal Exalted. It requires the student to become attuned to the very essence of Creation itself, the weave of Fate and Destiny, of the Celestial objects, of the five elements and of the students place in it. This humbling and life changing experience has been likened to undergoing the trials to unlock Solar Circle Sorcery. The Sidereals keep knowledge of this style a secret even from their closest allies, and only teach it to students who have mastered at least one other style rated at four.
Prismatic Arrangements of Creation Stylists are noted for their air of serene enlightenment. They seem to be surrounded by convenient coincidences and serendipitous moments. They are more easily noticed for how the world seems to move to aid them than anything inherent to their person. When using this style all Creation seems to bend to their opponents destruction, the enemy find their footing unstable, the sun shines in their eyes, their breathing becomes labored and other effects occur even as the Martial Artist finds himself with all the advantages.
Prismatic Arrangements of Creation Style Speed 4 Accuracy +3 Damage +7L/3 Defense +3 Attune 10m* Tags: P, 0, N
*Note, Mortals and Dragonblooded who attempt to learn this Style explode dramatically.
Special Effects
Note: Activating any of these special effects requires the user to have a special prayer strip made with special ink, this costs Resources 3 and requires Linguistics 4+ to create. The Stylist activate this prayer strip at a cost of 1wp as a Miscellaneous Speed 5, DV -1 action equivalent to readying a weapon. Once active the Prayer Strip circles the Stylists body and may be targeted as if with a Disarm action. While active the user may activate any of these effects and they cease the moment the Prayer Strip is Disarmed or at the end of the scene.
Four Magical Materials Stance: The Stylist spends 3m as a Miscellaneous Speed 5/DV -1 action to gain a Magical Material bonus on all his Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style Attacks. The Martial Artist may select Orichalcum, Starmetal, Moonsilver or Jade for the bonus. The motes for this effect are not committed but you may not stack effects. You can change the bonus at any time with another 3m and another Misc action.
Spell Shattering Palm: Whenever the Stylist is the target of a spell he may spend 10m, 1wp or 15m, 2wp or 20m, 3wp to instantly counter the spell as if he had used Emerald, Sapphire or Adamant Countermagic respectively. This only effects spells directly cast at the Martial Artist or that include him as a target when cast, it has no effect on ongoing spells or Sorcerous keyword Charms unless they are used to target the Sidereal. If the Sidereal is targeted by an attack created by pure Essence, such as a Phantom Arrow Attack, an Elemental Bolt Attack or a Mind Hand Manipulation or Words of Power the Stylist may spend 5m, 1wp to block the attack so long as the attack is blockable and he is aware of it. This has no effect on normal attacks enhanced with Charms or artifact weapons.
God Ways: The Stylist's can see and interact with Dematerialized beings as if they were material in respect to himself. If he kills a spirit he may spend 5m, 1wp as a Step 10 effect to capture the spirit inside the prayer strip. This causes the prayer strip to fall to the ground and all prayer-strip effects to cease. The spirit is released if the strip is destroyed. You may not capture a spirit of Essence greater than your own with this effect.
Demense and Manse Emulation: To use this effect the Stylist must own and be attuned to a Manse and posses its Hearthstone. He then places the Hearthstone on his brow and it affixes itself there, the hearthstone provides its normal mote respiration benefits at all times. When the prayer strip is active the Martial Artist also gains the benefits of the hearthstone as if it was in an attuned artifact, but only while the strip is active.
Soul Fire Shaper: If the Martial Artists knows another Martial Arts style he may use the Special Effects of that style without paying the 1wp surcharge while in Prismatic Arrangements of Creation Form. This effects only one Style per turn which may be changed reflexively per turn. Using two or more Style Special Effects costs 1wp for each Style past the first.
Recommended Exotic Training Requirements (pick any five): Having a Sifu who knows this Style, Being an Essence 5+ Sidereal Exalted student, knowing at least one other Style rated 4+, traveling to each of the Elemental Poles, being tutored by a Maiden of Destiny, having your attempt to learn this style written into the Destiny of Creation by the Bureau of Destiny, being a Sapphire Circle Sorcerer, defeat a major threat to Creation such as a Third Circle demon, an Ishvara or a Deathlord.
You can't resurrect someone who dies. But you can avoid dying. You can be so prepared that you cheat death when it comes for you. This is no protection for your family, though. This won't save your friends if the Wyld Hunt that killed you kills them too. This won't bring you back if they find you again before you can make another simulacrum. This won't stop your mortal lover from dying because you stabbed them in a fit of Curse-induced rage.
This isn't a take-back. You were just well-prepared and skilled and thinking ahead, so you avoided death this time.
Except you don't prepare it, and there's no actual counter to it: nobody can intuit that they're fighting a robot double at any point in time before the charm is activated. Also, I seem to remember people pointing out that the current craft rules actually make it pretty easy to spam(for a Solar really invested in craft).
It's also weird because the way the effect is written you should be able to make perfect copies of yourself(to the extent that they have access to all Solar charms you do). This is ridiculous, and thus that's not how the charm works. So the way the charms functions mechanically doesn't match the fluff, despite the fact that 3ed is supposed to be better in that regard.
You can't resurrect someone who dies. But you can avoid dying. You can be so prepared that you cheat death when it comes for you. This is no protection for your family, though. This won't save your friends if the Wyld Hunt that killed you kills them too. This won't bring you back if they find you again before you can make another simulacrum. This won't stop your mortal lover from dying because you stabbed them in a fit of Curse-induced rage.
This isn't a take-back. You were just well-prepared and skilled and thinking ahead, so you avoided death this time.
Narratively, yes (except for it automagically chumping Awareness dudes, which is dumb).
As it will interface with play, it functions as a takeback. You don't need to prepare it ahead of time, commit resources, or even suspect you might be in trouble. You can just do it once you lose.
By that logic any Charm that saves your bacon is a takeback. The perfect dodge (There's one true perfect dodge, Seven Shadow Evasion) avoiding that last hit, or Iron-Skin Concentration, which lets you grow new temporary health levels to take the edge off of a killing blow. You don't have to commit resources, or prepare ahead of time, or suspect you were seriously in danger, just pop the Charm and bam, you don't die. Dual-Magnus Prana is better at it, for being more costly and needing more investment. But it's still just a magical way to avoid dying this time.
Narratively, yes (except for it automagically chumping Awareness dudes, which is dumb).
As it will interface with play, it functions as a takeback. You don't need to prepare it ahead of time, commit resources, or even suspect you might be in trouble. You can just do it once you lose.
It's just about as mechanical a takeback as a 2e Lunar or Infernal looking at the post-soak damage rolled against him, seeing that it would kill him, and reflexively spending a bunch of motes to "heal" the damage "as it is taken," thus never actually dying.
You can't resurrect someone who dies. But you can avoid dying. You can be so prepared that you cheat death when it comes for you. This is no protection for your family, though. This won't save your friends if the Wyld Hunt that killed you kills them too. This won't bring you back if they find you again before you can make another simulacrum. This won't stop your mortal lover from dying because you stabbed them in a fit of Curse-induced rage.
This isn't a take-back. You were just well-prepared and skilled and thinking ahead, so you avoided death this time.
This would be valid if it was an associated mechanic-you build a duplicate, as an artifact, who can pretend to be you but weaker (because presumably you're not going to be building Solar exaltations) which can be detected and noticed. As it stands as a disassociated mechanic, Dual Magnus Prana is... well, the best way I've found to describe it is basically "Things Iteration X does."[1] Now, Iteration X is pretty awesome, but Solars shouldn't be throwing around high-level oMage technomagic. Especially because, as I understand it, if you survive the ambush horribly maimed, Dual Magnus Prana doesn't kick in and negate your wounds. In fact, you can't activate it to say "that was actually a Terminator" unless you die.
If you get poisoned and it's just really inconvenient? If you get bound in unbreakable rope while your opponents laugh maniacally and leave you in the middle of a desert? Well, you better hope they left you some way to kill yourself real fast.
Because these are completely contradictory points. Either consequences matter or they don't, and you can't claim that is "working as intended" when one side can start a fight and then suddenly opt out of it by using what is essentially a hanging scene-length Perfect Defense against Literally Everything Which Just Happened Prior As Long As The ST Says So.
The Sidereal version of this same effect was a Defense which time-locked to self-disable for a reason, and not strictly on a issue of balancing. Because it needed to create an element of tension for the user, where they weigh the benefits of sliding out with minimal investment into the combat, or directly committing into it with no easy way out. If you can simply "respawn" after dumping everything you have in a fight (which you may have even started) and that still not being enough to win, why are we bothering rolling combats at all and not simply asking the ST how it plays out?
By that logic any Charm that saves your bacon is a takeback. The perfect dodge (There's one true perfect dodge, Seven Shadow Evasion) avoiding that last hit, or Iron-Skin Concentration, which lets you grow new temporary health levels to take the edge off of a killing blow. You don't have to commit resources, or prepare ahead of time, or suspect you were seriously in danger, just pop the Charm and bam, you don't die. Dual-Magnus Prana is better at it, for being more costly and needing more investment. But it's still just a magical way to avoid dying this time.
You're confusing what is essentially a combat mechanic with that of a narrative one. A Dodge/Parry/Soak Defense is intended to function at the scale of combat and is usually predicated on the knowledge that it's not going to solve the tactical and strategic situation for you. You Dodge the attack- but you're still engaged in combat.
Dual Magnus Prana is strategically superior for the above reasons. It gets you all the way out of combat for effectively no in-scene, gameable cost. Oh sure, the Storyteller can fabricate costs outside the Charm, but there's no way to respond otherwise.
Now, amusingly, we have an example of such a power done correctly- or at least better than Dual Magnus Prana: Avoidance Kata from Sidereals.
Avoidance Kata has clearly defined limitations (two actions from time of battle starting), and obfuscates the Sidereal's teleportation as a form of Illusion Effect. (The illusion, iirc, prevents the witnesses from understanding they were fighting someone, not the escape itself.)
Avoidance Kata is overall better for the game line as a whole- healthier, because it says something about Sidereals. Dual Magnus Prana is 'You need a 1up in this game, so have an arbitrary 1up'.
By that logic any Charm that saves your bacon is a takeback. The perfect dodge (There's one true perfect dodge, Seven Shadow Evasion) avoiding that last hit, or Iron-Skin Concentration, which lets you grow new temporary health levels to take the edge off of a killing blow. You don't have to commit resources, or prepare ahead of time, or suspect you were seriously in danger, just pop the Charm and bam, you don't die. Dual-Magnus Prana is better at it, for being more costly and needing more investment. But it's still just a magical way to avoid dying this time.
All of those allow counter-play, however. I mean, even SSE, which allows you to perfectly dodge, doesn't remove you from the premises. They need to work harder to kill you, but if they've set it up right, they can do so. DMP's only counter-play is to hope you can find a single individual somewhere in creation before they can get to the point where they can use the charm again.
It's just about as mechanical a takeback as a 2e Lunar or Infernal looking at the post-soak damage rolled against him, seeing that it would kill him, and reflexively spending a bunch of motes to "heal" the damage "as it is taken," thus never actually dying.
I wasn't aware that those charms then took the character out of the area in such a way that he was never actually there to begin with.
Granted, there is a charm like that in second edition. It also has a metric shit ton of restrictions on it's use(has to be relatively close to the start of the scene, must succeed in a roll at difficulty Essence), and doesn't have the weird fluff/mechanics interaction where you supposedly are making robots that are perfect copies of you(including being able to use Solar Charms) and yet you also totally cannot do that at all because it would be stupid if Solars could bud like that.
It's just about as mechanical a takeback as a 2e Lunar or Infernal looking at the post-soak damage rolled against him, seeing that it would kill him, and reflexively spending a bunch of motes to "heal" the damage "as it is taken," thus never actually dying.
No, because it also functions as a perfect escape, like an Avoidance Kata with no time limit. In the case of a Lunar with a healing effect who spent motes to turn an otherwise-killing blow into something survivable, you just kill him again. He's sitting right there in striking range, you already managed to "kill" him once, now he's spent a bunch more of his precious motes, have at it.
This thing is in an entirely different league. If you want to kill the dude who has it, you need to first kill him, then find him after he retroactively survives and escapes (somewhere in the entirety of Creation) and kill him again... before he can spam up the craft xp to use the bloody charm and make you repeat the entire process from the beginning. Again. Good luck with that.
Its not even really a question of "No Takebacks" so much as, you cannot claim in the same post:
if you have:
Because these are completely contradictory points. Either consequences matter or they don't, and you can't claim that is "working as intended" when one side can start a fight and then suddenly opt out of it by using what is essentially a hanging scene-length Perfect Defense against Literally Everything Which Just Happened Prior As Long As The ST Says So.
The Sidereal version of this same effect was a Defense which time-locked to self-disable for a reason, and not strictly on a issue of balancing. Because it needed to create an element of tension for the user, where they weigh the benefits of sliding out with minimal investment into the combat, or directly committing into it with no easy way out. If you can simply "respawn" after dumping everything you have in a fight (which you may have even started) and that still not being enough to win, why are we bothering rolling combats at all and not simply asking the ST how it plays out?
At which point you are in the same scene, out a bunch of white xp, utterly exhausted because you just blew all your motes and wp on the simulacrum and you just abandoned your friends.
Also, like...seriously, avoiding death for now is not the same as avoiding death forever, you realize that right? Consequences of using violence remain, you just didn't die this fight.
At which point you are in the same scene, out a bunch of white xp, utterly exhausted because you just blew all your motes and wp on the simulacrum and you just abandoned your friends.
Also, like...seriously, avoiding death for now is not the same as avoiding death forever, you realize that right? Consequences of using violence remain, you just didn't die this fight.
So on the one hand, this is actually a fairly good analysis of how to handle a player character using the Charm. Like, i don't know anyone else's ST experience, but I can safely say I haven't run a full circle of Exalts as combat opponents in years. Most of the time, NPCs you fight are a Single Person who is ostensibly More Powerful than 4-5 PCs. (This is purely for playability purposes, mind you).
Having said that, it's still a solution applied outside of the charm itself, and that does not protect the charm from criticism.
Now, I would cite that this charm is more problematic in the hands of NPCs- (Yes you can as ST say no NPC has it, but that's not the same as the game teaching you how to use it).
Problematic with NPCs: This charm exists so you can have recurring, Single Solar Antagonists in Exalted. Not necessarily a bad desire, but speaking for myself, I've realized after a long while, that I cannot afford to make Enduring Exalted Antagonists, be they Solar, Abyssal or anyone else. if a PC wants to kill someome, they will die.
The means to prevent that death aren't fun. (Paranoia combat, etc).
Ceasing to Exist Approach is not reflexive. In fact, it's a Simple charm. It is not disassociated. It doesn't activate after someone has left you a small smear on the pavement and go "HA HA HA FOOLED YOU! PSYCH!"
This greatly reduces the potential criticisms, because there's actually counterplay. It's a thing which is activated in sequence and produces a result, rather than a gigantic cosmic retcon.
At which point you are in the same scene, out a bunch of white xp, utterly exhausted because you just blew all your motes and wp on the simulacrum and you just abandoned your friends.
Also, like...seriously, avoiding death for now is not the same as avoiding death forever, you realize that right? Consequences of using violence remain, you just didn't die this fight.
DMP doesn't cost any motes. If you're out of motes, it's because you spent them all. In that case, removing yourself from the battle is probably one of the best things you can do, as at this point you're a target that your fellows need to spend resources protecting. Or, that would be the case, except instead you'd be dead, because the charm only can activate in response to your death. Abandoning your friends is, in this case, not something that could be avoided. The charms turns a permanent abandonment into a temporary one.
a) You can't use that one retroactively after having your head cut off. This is kind of important.
b) It's a Simple Charm. It's also Shaping, and can be blocked by area Shaping-denial. There are counterplays.
There is no possible way to counterplay Dual Magnus. You need to find and kill the guy repeatedly until you luck out and manage to find and kill him before he manages to get enough crafting XP to use it (again, entirety of Creation, good luck). There is no other way to kill him. This is broken/undesirable.
DMP doesn't cost any motes. If you're out of motes, it's because you spent them all. In that case, removing yourself from the battle is probably one of the best things you can do, as at this point you're a target that your fellows need to spend resources protecting. Or, that would be the case, except instead you'd be dead, because the charm only can activate in response to your death. Abandoning your friends is, in this case, not something that could be avoided. The charms turns a permanent abandonment into a temporary one.
In general, I would feel pretty bad if I left my friends to fight on after apparently dying. And generally a combat that kills you is also one that cost a lot of motes. It's actually really hard to kill someone who has a lot of motes left.
