I'm not sure why that's a problem.

Losing a soul should be a big deal.

It other exalts get the ablitiy to attack the Infernals third soul, then its only fair for the Infernal to get the ablitiy to attack the third souls of other exalt types.

Invincible Sword Princess: YOU CANNOT DEFEAT ME
Infernal: Just ate your solar exaltion! bye bye!


Losing a soul should be a big deal after all.
 
putting it at risk forces the Infernal to go into Pantheon-boosting Charmtech to replace it if it's killed.
Not that i find the idea of bringing peoples in your devil domain particurarly good or bad, but couldn't be a simple fix requiring the Infernal to learn the Pantheon-Boosting Charmtech before learning how to bring peoples in your devil domain?
 
You've mentioned several times that you wouldn't allow the ability to bring other people into the Devil Domain

Look, you don't let people mess around your soul for the same reason you don't let people mess with your internal organs. It isn't healthy.

And is not just your coadyutor. Your other souls are around there. Including your Po. Do you want to know what happens if somebody GET's your Po? I certainly don't.

If other people can enter your domain, you are open to the same vulnerability that allowed the Exalted to kill the primordials.
 
It other exalts get the ablitiy to attack the Infernals third soul, then its only fair for the Infernal to get the ablitiy to attack the third souls of other exalt types.

But other Exalt types aren't stupid enough to add non-regulation Souls to their matrix. You're not attacking the Exaltation, you're attacking the coadjutor. Two different things.

The equivalent attack against a Solar or Abyssal would be "I attack you Hun or Po!" and... uh, such Charmtech already exists. It just that the penalty for allowing your Hun or Po to be killed is rather more severe than "And now you can't use a half dozen Charms!" and more like "And now you're dead!"

Frankly, the refrain that coadjutors are 'irreplacable' is pure technobabble bullshit. There is no reason they can't be bought back up or regrow if its that important to game balance. If you cut a Solar's arms off he suddenly looses access to the vast majority of the Melee Charm tree but we don't declare that "Charms which remove limbs are verboten because they render a large chunk of the Solar Charm set unusable if they succeed" instead we declare "Yeah, okay, but Solars have Medicine and Resistance Charms that mean they either negate or heal limb-removing injuries".

In the same way, there could be Charmtech for either protecting your coadjutor from being killed or that regrows it. It won't be the same coadjutor (because death = irreversible in Exalted) but if you need a coadjutor to qualify for some Charm then there is no reason you can't get one of similar power or whatever.

Earthscorpion and Aleph have declared killing coadjutors verboten because... because. Whatever justifications they come up with are pure fluff-wank. Mechanically there is no difference between "I hit you in your coadjutor, loose five backgrounds dots!" and "I hit you in your Melee, loose five Ability dots!" and the latter has been valid Charmtech for a long, long time.
 
Well, getting hit in the Melee is, you know. Stopped by Crippling defenses. As I understand, EarthScorpion and Aleph seem to have homebrewed paranoia combat out...? Feel free to correct me, Aleph and/or EarthScorpion, this is just an assumption based on how heavily you seem to have homebrewed stuff. In any case, attacking a Coadjutor would be, well, a Shaping attack. Like, say, Pattern Spider Touch, which allows you to punch someone's soul off. Insta-dead-fuck-you effects exist in 2E/2.5. They're just keyworded appropriately, which means you'll never actually land them on anyone who actually matters.
 
No, because the Coadjutor isn't a natural part of the Infernal.

Humans can't just 'grow' demons inside their souls. In addition you'd go from having an ancient knowledgeable demon with reliable information on the demon city and a network of friends to a new born pup who is of no value to the Infernal. The Coadjutor rating isn't just about what they can do for you, its also a measure of the demons potency itself.

No, they won't. You may be generalising Kerisgame too much. Pantheon-keyworded Charms mean that all Infernals will bud souls, yes. But unless they specifically invest in the Charmtech to awaken and empower them, those souls stay insensate and foetal by default; non-sapient organs in the Infernal's metabiology. Not a fully intelligent Coadjutor. Even with the assumption that another soul can step in and replace the coadjutor - which I personally wouldn't be happy with - putting it at risk forces the Infernal to go into Pantheon-boosting Charmtech to replace it if it's killed.

I don't feel this is entirely convincing. Is the problem just that the Coadjutor gives an irreplaceable source of dice buffs? In that case being able to grow an effective replacement for those buffs through charmtech doesn't seem like a big deal, especially since this also grants a way for those who had a low rating at character gen to gain those bonuses in play.

If I have an Ally background and the ally is killed, that's also in some sense "irreplaceable". But as long as the character can do something to regain the granted advantage, I think it's OK.
 
If I have an Ally background and the ally is killed, that's also in some sense "irreplaceable". But as long as the character can do something to regain the granted advantage, I think it's OK.

That's like saying its ok for me to whack the Savant or Past Lives rating out of someone. Or to whack the Occult dots out of them, so they can't use their sorcery anymore. Or hit them until they can no longer have intimacies or limit breaks.

The Coadjutor is an important part of the Infernal Experience. Not only is it the demon that helped exalt you, its also the 'source' for both the Infernal Urge and the Infernal Limit Breaks. Being able to 'kill' it would literally break the Infernal exaltation. And I'm not just talking about any charms based off the Coadjutor that the Infernal might have (which is some of my favourite charmspace, but I'm biased.

Removing the Coadjutor would almost certainly prevent the Coadjutor from functioning.
 
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Look, you don't let people mess around your soul for the same reason you don't let people mess with your internal organs. It isn't healthy.

And is not just your coadyutor. Your other souls are around there. Including your Po. Do you want to know what happens if somebody GET's your Po? I certainly don't.

If other people can enter your domain, you are open to the same vulnerability that allowed the Exalted to kill the primordials.

But other Exalt types aren't stupid enough to add non-regulation Souls to their matrix. You're not attacking the Exaltation, you're attacking the coadjutor. Two different things.

The equivalent attack against a Solar or Abyssal would be "I attack you Hun or Po!" and... uh, such Charmtech already exists. It just that the penalty for allowing your Hun or Po to be killed is rather more severe than "And now you can't use a half dozen Charms!" and more like "And now you're dead!"

Actually we do know what happens if you kill an Exalt's Po. Or their Hun, for that Matter. We know because there's a Second Circle Necromancy spell that does just that.

Crystal Ghost Shard lets a Labyrinth Circle Necromancer astral project as a free Hun soul, a ghost. If killed, their body and Exaltation draws them back to 'them' so fast that they can't dissipate and die, but the traumatic experience shaves off a Permanent Willpower.

Links Born in Tumult lets a Necromancer use their lower soul as a bruiser and attack dog. If killed, it flees back to it's body, but the pain and desecration of part of the self burn away a permanent point of willpower.
 
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Look, I'll be blunt.

I don't want to let people rid themselves of their coadjutor if they don't want it. If you hate it, then it's a part of you chained away within your mind, screaming away without you listening to it. It's a scar of the origin you want to deny, the atrophied means that the demon princes thought to use to control you - and even if you cast that off, you can't rid yourself off it. Scars don't heal that easily. It's part of who you are and a consequence of your deal, even if you hate it.

Infernals have a theme of second chances and past mistakes - all of them have failed in some grand way. Some people come to terms with what happened to them. Some people find some level of accommodation (like Sasi, who's haunted by the past and has her rationalisations and who tries not to think about things when she doesn't have to). Some people embrace the ways it made them change (like Keris, who gave up 'being a street rat' for Sorcery and embraced that she's a Green Sun Princess). But the people who reject it can't flee their past that easily, and that's why they're stuck with the little voice in the back of their mind.

That's really the primary reason at a thematic level I forbid putting the coadjutor in a place where it can be killed. It's not for the characters who get on with their coadjutor and therefore risk getting it killed through their own stupidity - and so blame themselves for it. It's for the characters who don't get on with them who aren't allowed to get rid of it. It's the enemy at the back of their head, impotent but present. It's an ever-present reminder of their origins.

Therefore I would if @Aleph wanted houserule things so Dulmea could be put at risk. But that'd be an overall departure from what I consider to be the theme to please a player.

(Also, at a secondary level, I don't want Infernal games to turn into imaginary romps through their special soul world. I don't want to allow parties to just live out inside the soul of one of the party members. Bluntly, at a mechanical level as I implemented it the Devil Domain is basically the same as Solar Elsewhere Charms. You store stuff in it, and pull it out when needed. It gets to be somewhat more expansive than Solar Elsewhere Charms with some investment and lets you do things like transfer buildings you own into your soul world through an extended Sorcerous ritual, but it's still basically just a character's hammerspace and personal demon-storing pen where they keep their personal demons rather than summoning them from Hell. If we're going to strip it of its romance and grandeur, it's their inventory and their Pokécomputer.

What matters is Creation, and therefore players should be forced to go out and conquer it if they want proper, real territory they control.)
 
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That's like saying its ok for me to whack the Savant or Past Lives rating out of someone. Or to whack the Occult dots out of them, so they can't use their sorcery anymore. Or hit them until they can no longer have intimacies or limit breaks.

I have no problem with any of that. Inflicting lasting crippling injuries on another person, stealing their memories or shaving pieces off their soul... these are all valid attacks. If you want to defend against them, get appropriate Charmtech or don't piss off people who can rip out your ability to experience love. Like, eating people's souls is a whole thing the Fair Folk do and they are the second weakest splat in the game.

The Coadjutor is an important part of the Infernal Experience. Not only is it the demon that helped exalt you, its also the 'source' for both the Infernal Urge and the Infernal Limit Breaks. Being able to 'kill' it would literally break the Infernal exaltation. And I'm not just talking about any charms based off the Coadjutor that the Infernal might have (which is some of my favourite charmspace, but I'm biased.

Removing the Coadjutor would almost certainly prevent the Coadjutor from functioning.

I rather like to think that removing the Coadjutor would break the Infernal in the same way removing a Fetich would break a Primordial.

And if you do it often enough that it can't grow back, it would ruin them in the way it ruined the Neverborn.

Keep in mind that you are totally allowed as a player to put no dots in that Background so as to basically say "Nah, fuck all that. I don't want a voice in my head." and this represents a coadjutor which is unusually quiet or inactive, maybe even ones that's basically been reduced to a catatonic state by what is, let us not forget, an extremely traumatic mutilation and transformative experience.

I don't want to let people rid themselves of their coadjutor if they don't want it. If you hate it, then it's a part of you chained away within your mind, screaming away without you listening to it. It's a scar of the origin you want to deny, the atrophied means that the demon princes thought to use to control you - and even if you cast that off, you can't rid yourself off it. Scars don't heal that easily. It's part of who you are and a consequence of your deal, even if you hate it.

I'll be blunt; this is nothing but a failure of imagination.

Like, you want consequences for killing a thing in your own soul and not have the PC be able to avoid them entirely? We already know how that works and its not "This element of my character sheet is indestructible". Go ask the Neverborn what they think of all the segments cut out of their soul structure for how 'easily' the scars heal.

Like you're killing a thing not tied to lethe in your own soul. Now the coadjutor is dead an instead you have some horrific necrotic... thing attached to your soulspace. A sucking gaping void where a critical part of your identity should be. A tumor of rotting flesh stored in a back closet, just waiting the trigger to turn malignant and spread across your soul scape.

Congratulations, you turned yourself in Autocthon. I imagine he will have useful advice on how butchering and renovating your own soul structure never has any consequences whatsoever. Further, I'm certain the Yozi will love that you have introduced this potentially catastrophic rotting soul thing into close contact with their fundamental Mythos.

Like, if you think killing your coadjutor should be something that ends consequences instead of hilariously multiplying them then that's a failure of your ability to come up with interesting plots, not a failure of the plots to be interesting.

(Also, at a secondary level, I don't want Infernal games to turn into imaginary romps through their special soul world. I don't want to allow parties to just live out inside the soul of one of the party members. Bluntly, at a mechanical level as I implemented it the Devil Domain is basically the same as Solar Elsewhere Charms. You store stuff in it, and pull it out when needed. It gets to be somewhat more expansive than Solar Elsewhere Charms with some investment and lets you do things like transfer buildings you own into your soul world through an extended Sorcerous ritual, but it's still basically just a character's hammerspace and personal demon-storing pen where they keep their personal demons rather than summoning them from Hell. If we're going to strip it of its romance and grandeur, it's their inventory and their Pokécomputer.

What matters is Creation, and therefore players should be forced to go out and conquer it if they want proper, real territory they control.)

This, I can understand. But you're the one that opened the door and are now complaining that the horse has fled. Your ideas are interesting but, like much of 2e, ultimately poorly thought out and propped up with a bunch of Because I Say So reasoning that prevents the logical consequences of their implementation from coming to the fore.

For example; imagine how this entire thing plays out in a situation where it isn't just you and Aleph playing a one-on-one game. The entire devil domain is ridiculous if you're dealing with an actual RPG group. What, do we stop the game for a half hour while Infernal goes off and has a long involved subplot with his various pantheon souls? A sub plot that none of the other players can even be aware of, much less participate in? A sub plot that has basically zero impact on anything else in the game?

You know, I'd never seen anyone look at the Shadowrun hacker problem and say "Yeah, I need to do that but even worse and with even less actual impact."

Devil Domains make good fanfic; which is essentially what you and Aleph are writing, but very poor roleplaying game mechanics.
 
For example; imagine how this entire thing plays out in a situation where it isn't just you and Aleph playing a one-on-one game. The entire devil domain is ridiculous if you're dealing with an actual RPG group. What, do we stop the game for a half hour while Infernal goes off and has a long involved subplot with his various pantheon souls? A sub plot that none of the other players can even be aware of, much less participate in? A sub plot that has basically zero impact on anything else in the game?

You know, I'd never seen anyone look at the Shadowrun hacker problem and say "Yeah, I need to do that but even worse and with even less actual impact."

Devil Domains make good fanfic; which is essentially what you and Aleph are writing, but very poor roleplaying game mechanics.

One of the reasons I like the idea of them being open. Because then, you can play Psychonauts, Exalted Edition, and that's awesome. Though that introduces the issue that inner-worlds shouldn't necessarily be completely tame, even to their owners. Which is fine an proper - we don't perfectly like ourselves. Going the way of Inari and her progenitor seems like a fine risk when you start expanding yourself to the point you are something you can interact with in a meaningful way.

Of course that moves you further away from creation and more up your... self. I don't see this as inherently a problem - Exalts regularly self focus, to the point of ignoring creation except where it intrudes on their own goals, but I know ES and Aleph disagree.
 
No Hell-Empires, then? :V
Yes, but you build it in Malfeas, where there are other Green Sun Princes and Demons and the like to oppose you, ally with you or just getting in your way by accident because they are a sapient emotion for crying out loud and now your soldier are too melancholy to do anything but mope. And of course you also have to deal with Isidoros taking a nap in your factory district, Adorjan killing one of your demonic armies by accident when she passed through, and Ligier being utterly smitten with and courting you in the most drawn out, and excessively complicated manner possible, while you want to just scream that you'd blow him for a Hell-Strider, but you know being crude would just put him off.

Not to mention what happens when Hegra blows over and you wake up beside your hated rival, who stole the manse you had spent at least a year constructing, for the Yozi's sake, completely naked and surrounded by at least fifty neomah, four second Circle Demons of varying gender, species and physicality. And Munraxes, in her canyon body, is blushing and being Tsun-Tsun towards you.

Also, you've absorbed some of the power of the Typhoon of Nightmares and now can shoot people with bolts of frustration and people can now lick the sweat off of you to get stupidly high.

Instead of the city in your soul, where most of your souls can't hurt you and are predisposed to doing what you say if you push it and for the most part can't permanently harm you.
 
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A sub plot that none of the other players can even be aware of, much less participate in? A sub plot that has basically zero impact on anything else in the game?

You know, I'd never seen anyone look at the Shadowrun hacker problem and say "Yeah, I need to do that but even worse and with even less actual impact."

Devil Domains make good fanfic; which is essentially what you and Aleph are writing, but very poor roleplaying game mechanics.
I know of one way to make it interesting for the rest of the group. Everybody also has at least one pantheon soul they play per Infernal, but that can get out of hand rather quickly the larger the group gets. That is players A, B, C, and D all have their normal characters (a, b, c, and d,) but when it comes time for a's Devil Domain stuff, B, C, and D switch to playing b*,c*, and d* who are the souls of a.
 
I rather like to think that removing the Coadjutor would break the Infernal in the same way removing a Fetich would break a Primordial.

And if you do it often enough that it can't grow back, it would ruin them in the way it ruined the Neverborn.

Keep in mind that you are totally allowed as a player to put no dots in that Background so as to basically say "Nah, fuck all that. I don't want a voice in my head." and this represents a coadjutor which is unusually quiet or inactive, maybe even ones that's basically been reduced to a catatonic state by what is, let us not forget, an extremely traumatic mutilation and transformative experience.

Uh, what. If you can attack the coadjutor somehow, what kind of retarded player would spend points for the privilege of having a giant gaping hole of a weak point that can be used to remotely kill them? If you can't attack the coadjutor, then there is absolutely no purpose to this whatsoever.
 
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I rather like to think that removing the Coadjutor would break the Infernal in the same way removing a Fetich would break a Primordial.

And that explains so much of the rest of your argument, because I consider that to be nonsense. The closest parallel to a fetich in an Infernal is the thing which gives their personality definition - ie, their hun-po combo. That is to say, the bit which makes them a person.

The rest of your argument is what I refer to as "GM Spite" - the kind of thing which GMs do as a Fuck You while reaching for justifications. rather than just saying no. Honestly, it's much better GMing to just say no cleanly rather than trying that kind of passive-aggressiveness [1]. For example, the contrived claim that it'll give you something akin to Autochthonic voidcancer for killing it is totally ungrounded, because if it did then every other time that a Third Circle was killed the same thing would happen. You're so wedded to your axiom that the coadjutor is like a fetich that the fact I don't accept it doesn't seem to register.

See, the thing is? I prefer to set the "you can't get rid of your coadjutor, and you can't make it vulnerable" as the baseline, knowing that if people want to tell a different story, they can easily change it - after all, it could very well be risky soul surgery to try to excise it, and you'd need to do things like study the surrender oaths to see what was done to the Yozis when they were mutilated and you might well need to steal some of the tools of Lytek he uses to clean Exaltations so you can corrupt them and use them to strip off the coadjutor, etc etc. But this is for the same reason that "Yozi Escape is impossible" is there - people will inevitably change it, but by saying that it can't be done, people might actually put some thought into the story they want to tell by changing it. After all, I explicitly said I personally would let it happen if a player wanted it. And it stops newer groups from accidentally stumbling into this highly problematic state [2]. You, by contrast, presented the player with "Oh, you could totally do it - but fuck you for even trying it and you're going to be fucked if you do it". You can call it a "failure of imagination" if you are so inclined, but I prefer to set clean OOC limits and then let a group which wants to change it talk it out themselves than litter the floor with caltrops to dissuade people from a well-trodden path.

Incidentally? The choice of Kerisgame make more than the coadjutor self-aware with this level of Charmtech purchased is, while within the letter of the RAW, not the default. Under the default rules, the Charms just exist as representations in the Devil Domain - we just chose to make those representations into people because, bluntly, it's a one-on-one game so we can get away with it and it gives NPCs who can stick around when Keris moves from place to place. In a game where there's an actual party, the party would fulfil that niche and things would be more like the earlier stages of the game where Keris would sometimes go into her soul to talk to her coadjutor and notice a little wind-waif who stalks behind her, but who's basically kitten-smart [3].

[1] One of the many reasons that "say yes or roll the dice" is a terrible guideline.

[2] Which you seem to consider desirable, that someone's character can be fucked up to fetich-death levels if someone kills their coadjutor. Which just produces a "what" from me.

[3] Or, to recount how it actually happened, Aleph noticed the stalking kitten-smart wind-waif and took her under her wind, started playing with her and trying to teach her things, and she developed a personality and a way of talking through mime. So when Keris picked up another Pantheon Charm, it seemed natural to have that start as a baby - and so she started mothering that one too, as part of her character growth. It wasn't some great plan. Just stuff happening.
 
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It seems to me that having a Devil-Domain at all puts the Coadjutor at risk, because an angry or uncooperative Infernal can now kill it with Radiant-Fury Dissolution or any other option he may have.
 
It seems to me that having a Devil-Domain at all puts the Coadjutor at risk, because an angry or uncooperative Infernal can now kill it with Radiant-Fury Dissolution or any other option he may have.
...No, you can't. The Domain only exists while you have a non-zero rating in the Coadjutor background, which requires you to have a relationship with them that may be hostile, but is at least positive enough that you're willing to work with them. If you actually want to kill them enough to go and do it, you by definition are not willing to cooperate with them, and the background and Domain will both disappear as you decide to go do it.

It's entirely reasonable that an Infernal could learn to perform surgery on their soul with other methods in order to remove the Coadjutor, but the Devil Domain is not a viable means to do so.
 
Uh, what. If you can attack the coadjutor somehow, what kind of retarded player would spend points for the privilege of having a giant gaping hole of a weak point that can be used to remotely kill them? If you can't attack the coadjutor, then there is absolutely no purpose to this whatsoever.

But... it... can't?

At worst you loose five background dots. How you fluff this is up to you. It's really no different than someone destroying your warstrider or killing your Mentor.

And if a player wants to get the benefits of having a coadjutor he can meaningfully interact with he gets to have the penalties as well.

And that explains so much of the rest of your argument, because I consider that to be nonsense. The closest parallel to a fetich in an Infernal is the thing which gives their personality definition - ie, their hun-po combo. That is to say, the bit which makes them a person.

You're reading an awful lot into a one off response instead of replying to the rest of my post.

The rest of your argument is what I refer to as "GM Spite" - the kind of thing which GMs do as a Fuck You while reaching for justifications. rather than just saying no.

Oh, I'm totally fine with saying No. For example, this is a theoretical conversation between me and A Player.

Player: "Can I have a Devil Domain?"
Me: "No."

See, its remarkable how much more simple that makes the entire thing.

You're immensely tied to your personal interpretation of Infernals and hey, good for you. Your interpretation is terrible and full of ad hoc Because I Say So justifications and setting-babble explanations and declarations of This Is Better For Storytelling and so on but its actually kind of terrible.

Even the people behind 3e have realized that "Players are baby Primordials" was toxic design space and stepped away from it. Sometimes no matter how shiny or interesting a concept looks on paper, you just have to let it go. Because no matter how much you waffle around talking about how Your Way Works you're operating on a metric fuckton of unexamined and unstated personal assumptions that only work because you and Aleph are adept storytellers cooperating in a way that most people who would actually use these rules are incapable of doing.

See, when I see all the explosive bullshit that can occur because of the conceit of Infernals I don't think I can wall it off with a bunch of half-hearted rules like "No, really, you can't kill a coadjutor Because Reasons." I just shut the entire idea down and say; "Yeah, you can get Malfeas themed Charms but not actual Malfeas Charms and you're not going to be walking around with a dozen Third Circle demons in your head because holy hell that is unbalanced as fuck, just no."
 
But... it... can't?

At worst you loose five background dots. How you fluff this is up to you. It's really no different than someone destroying your warstrider or killing your Mentor.

And if a player wants to get the benefits of having a coadjutor he can meaningfully interact with he gets to have the penalties as well.

No.

Aaron Peori said:
I rather like to think that removing the Coadjutor would break the Infernal in the same way removing a Fetich would break a Primordial.

That isn't losing five background dots, dude.
 
@frozenchicken : If you really want something resembling "using another beings powers", then you can do it in the following two ways:
I kinda didn't. It was all about joining two characters together in an interesting and strange way. The ability to learn the charms of the other was just an option that I figured wasn't too OP (as Fiends can do that by default), that also gave a fluffy reason for why having a fetich soul would be important and also displaying how losing that soul could have a drastic effect on the Primordial.

For example; imagine how this entire thing plays out in a situation where it isn't just you and Aleph playing a one-on-one game. The entire devil domain is ridiculous if you're dealing with an actual RPG group. What, do we stop the game for a half hour while Infernal goes off and has a long involved subplot with his various pantheon souls? A sub plot that none of the other players can even be aware of, much less participate in? A sub plot that has basically zero impact on anything else in the game?
Y'know, I think the appropriate response to this would be to allow people inside your soul, but only in a limited sense. Make it a 'Hun souls only party' or something, so people can't go killing your souls. Or just give the Infernal and relevant souls automatic veto rights, so they can kick out anyone who causes trouble.
There's a Spirit charm called 'Worldly Illusion' that lets you shove people into your dreamscape and only social actions matter at all in there. I don't see why an Infernal can't have something loosely along the same lines.

"Yeah, you can get Malfeas themed Charms but not actual Malfeas Charms and you're not going to be walking around with a dozen Third Circle demons in your head because holy hell that is unbalanced as fuck, just no."
I'd think any smart ST would be making you pay for them. 1 charm for every single Deva, more charms to give them a home, another to materialise them (and mote cost to do so), Ally dots paid for them to be helpful in story, and all this isn't even getting into the simple fact that the Unquestionables are so ludicrously powerful because they are Aeon-old souls of Essence 10 Primordials who were once able to kick around the Unconquered Sun for laughs. Even the most generous ST wouldn't start your Devas off as more powerful than you, and would still charge xp in order to make them stronger.
 
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What, do we stop the game for a half hour while Infernal goes off and has a long involved subplot with his various pantheon souls? A sub plot that none of the other players can even be aware of, much less participate in? A sub plot that has basically zero impact on anything else in the game?
"One player does stuff while everyone else waits and watches" is a recurring problem and tends to pop up any time a personal plot happens.

you're not going to be walking around with a dozen Third Circle demons in your head because holy hell that is unbalanced as fuck, just no.
From a practical standpoint for 99% of games, they're only 3CDs in the sense that they're subsouls of a greater being - i.e. they are technically 3CDs but they're not actually that powerful. They're explicitly called out as mechanically equal to a 2CD (at least, they were last I saw). The only time someone would actually be "walking around with a dozen Third Circle demons in [their] head" would be if they had delved deep enough to get the charm that elevates them to 3CDs, which would presumably be at a point where people who could meaningfully oppose them have equivalent abilities.
So, no, you don't get 3CDs just from having the Devil-Domain. You don't get them just by getting the charm to spawn devas from your intimacies.

And, as either Aleph or ES pointed out a while back, just being your 3CD doesn't guarantee they want the same things or have any interest in helping you. If you spawn a deva from your intimacy of love for your wife, it's motivation will revolve around loving your wife. This can, in fact, result in your deva seducing your wife and/or subverting any attempts at romance between you and her. Your devas can work against you, or in a totally different direction. Kerisgame actually contains an example of this, where one of Keris's souls stole her loot and won't let anyone else even see it. To definitely get them as an ally, you would - as frozenchicken pointed out - buy the Ally background.
 
No.

That isn't losing five background dots, dude.

It's called shooting the shit, Jon. It's possible to throw out random ideas and brainstorm. Come up with something more interesting than "You loose five background dots" and add some fluff that lets a player do some interesting stuff with their character maybe.

I never said it would result in a perma-death for the character. I was coming up with a series of scenarios more interesting than "Your coadjutor is invincible to all things Because Reasons."

Y'know, I think the appropriate response to this would be to allow people inside your soul, but only in a limited sense. Make it a 'Hun souls only party' or something, so people can't go killing your souls. Or just give the Infernal and relevant souls automatic veto rights, so they can kick out anyone who causes trouble.
There's a Spirit charm called 'Worldly Illusion' that lets you shove people into your dreamscape and only social actions matter at all in there. I don't see why an Infernal can't have something loosely along the same lines.

Because its, again, kind of terrible Charmtech for an interesting campaign. "Oh hey, Mr I Didn't Invest In Social Charms, how about we stick you in a scenario where literally nothing you do matters." Just because a Charm exists in the books that allows it doesn't mean its a good idea to pursue it. I mean, we spent the last... what, thirty pages telling Horatio Von Beck and vicky_moloch that exact thing?

I'd think any smart ST would be making you pay for them. 1 charm for every single Deva, more charms to give them a home, another to materialise them (and mote cost to do so), Ally dots paid for them to be helpful in story, and all this isn't even getting into the simple fact that the Unquestionables are so ludicrously powerful because they are Aeon-old souls of Essence 10 Primordials who were once able to kick around the Unconquered Sun for laughs. Even the most generous ST wouldn't start your Devas off as more powerful than you, and would still charge xp in order to make them stronger.

One Charm for a single deva is hilariously broken. Especially considering these things are basically your slaves, in a way that, say, an actual Third Circle Demon is not.

A Charm is 8xp, 10xp if you don't favor it. Getting an entire third circle demon, even a second circle demon, for that price is going to snap the game in half.

"One player does stuff while everyone else waits and watches" is a recurring problem and tends to pop up any time a personal plot happens.

Yes, but at least if those plots happen in Creation the other players could theoretically contribute to them. Like, just to watch and maybe offer snarky commentary, at the least. The Devil Domain is broken in every way. Even Earthscorpion knows its broken. That's why he half-assed having Keris' Po soul grab that overwhelming pile of artifacts she picked up and keep her from using or trading or selling any of them because for crying out loud Solars need separate Charms to store a sword and a bow but with Devil Domain you can store entire vaults worth of artifacts. He had to Rule Zero his own houserules to prevent him breaking his own houserules.

It's like he looked at Transmorphic Integration Engine and said "Nah, this isn't broken enough. Let's add some twee moe waifus. That will make it more entertaining!"

From a practical standpoint for 99% of games, they're only 3CDs in the sense that they're subsouls of a greater being - i.e. they are technically 3CDs but they're not actually that powerful. They're explicitly called out as mechanically equal to a 2CD (at least, they were last I saw). The only time someone would actually be "walking around with a dozen Third Circle demons in [their] head" would be if they had delved deep enough to get the charm that elevates them to 3CDs, which would presumably be at a point where people who could meaningfully oppose them have equivalent abilities.
So, no, you don't get 3CDs just from having the Devil-Domain. You don't get them just by getting the charm to spawn devas from your intimacies.

Even a Second Circle Demon is wtf powerful and a massive bonus considering you get them on top of other Charm benefits.

I mean, imagine I said that every fifth Sidereal Charm you purchased gave you a free Essence 4~5 spirit who had to do what you said. People would be screaming bloody murder about how unbalanced that is. Yet he gets a pass because Echo is cute.

And, as either Aleph or ES pointed out a while back, just being your 3CD doesn't guarantee they want the same things or have any interest in helping you. If you spawn a deva from your intimacy of love for your wife, it's motivation will revolve around loving your wife. This can, in fact, result in your deva seducing your wife and/or subverting any attempts at romance between you and her. Your devas can work against you, or in a totally different direction. Kerisgame actually contains an example of this, where one of Keris's souls stole her loot and won't let anyone else even see it. To definitely get them as an ally, you would - as frozenchicken pointed out - buy the Ally background.

Except you don't build mechanics as if they're going to be used by people of Earthscorpion and Aleph's level of roleplaying ability. You build them as if they are going to be gone over by the equivalent of a powergamer and an idiot. As Jon Chung likes to point out again and again; just because it works in your game doesn't mean it actually works. Unless you spend several hundred words belaboring the point most gamers are not going to 'get it' about Pantheon Charms.

And if your Charms need several hundred words of belaboring to prevent abuse, your Charms are bad and you should feel bad.
 
A Charm is 8xp, 10xp if you don't favor it. Getting an entire third circle demon, even a second circle demon, for that price is going to snap the game in half.
I understand this, but I thought FSDD didn't let your devas out into the world unless you summoned them, at which point there is no difference from regular demon summoning. The only real problem I see is that you can store a small army in there, and there's restrictions to how you can put things in and pull things out.
 
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