- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Don't forget multiple purchases of Immanent Solar Glory, which add 10m peripheral to your pool. You can have up to [Essence] copies I believe.
or Lore; 5 before elder tier at least.
General Exalted Thread
Don't forget multiple purchases of Immanent Solar Glory, which add 10m peripheral to your pool. You can have up to [Essence] copies I believe.
or Lore; 5 before elder tier at least.
Also note that Ligier is basically the single hardest one to control, and... uh, might be more sensible to go for one who isn't a fetich, because he defines the high end.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Agreed, but for purposes of this thought exercise he's fine. In practical terms you want to try other demons, yes.
Anyway, 40m to cast the spell, 100m to debuff him down to 15 dice. Throw on a stunt for another 2 die, and then channel a virtue or WP on the roll.
From here you can start digging into the other books for extra mechanical aides of varying levels of mechanical Good-ness and Bad-Ness. Anything beyond this point should be taken with a grain of salt, simply because Demon Summoning is one of those things you don't want to fuck up, setting-wise.
For example, the least offensive buff is a supplementary rule in Roll of Glorious Divinity 2 that adds +2 dice to the binding roll if you can pay Resources 5 for the ritual.
Well, no. For example, if rather than summoning an Essence 10, Willpower 10 Third Circle, you instead go after an Essence 8, Willpower 7 Third Circle you've immediately removed five dice from their pool by being smarter and picking a rather more bindable demon.
Bursting Eagerness Soul
Threadwalking Rating Machine
- Location
- Wisconsin
@EarthScorpion and @Aleph how much was your Underworld inspired by the Abhorsen Trilogy? It seems rather similar, which I very much enjoy.
General rule of thumb; don't summon a demon with a higher Essence score than you.
This is generally easy with Demon of the First Circle, and not hard with Demon of the Second. First Circle Demons are going to be unusually potent if they hit E4, while most Second Circles aren't going beyond E6, with most at E4 or E5, both Essence scores a player could reach in general (if extended) play. At the same time, Second Circles aren't going to have anywhere near the same level of anti Summoning defenses as Demons of the Third Circle, and even if they have some, Demon of the Second Circle is the sort of spell you spend a month preparing for and involves you dumping a lot of motes on debuffing the demon in question and keeping a combat specced Celestial close at hand just in case things go wrong and you roll all ones while their chance die comes up with a ten.
Demon of the Third Circle though?
Demon of the Third Circle is the Summoning spell that, like much Adamant Circle Sorcery, demonstrates 'can' does not equal 'should' or 'is a good idea.' Because you can reach it at Essence 5. And at Essence 5, the demons you'd likely be interested in Summoning probably have the kind of dicepools where, debuffed as much as you can, they have dice parity with you.
That's not a big problem with a First or even Second Circle Demon, if you have the right precautions.
Third Circles aren't First or Second Circle Demons. First Circles are tools, even if they are living, sapient things. Second Circle Demons are buildings that would define an entire city's character, weapons that destroy armies or merchants that trade in the dreams of their lessers. Not so Third Circle Demons. These are the beings that would define what an entire Direction of Creation is known for, a city palace of debauchery, a chasm that swallows the betrayers, a roaming shadow of music that twists those that hear and see it, a plague of melancholy or the baleful gaze of a green sun that will take no peace.
In the First Age, a skilled team of mortals could bring down a First Circle, and expect injuries but no deaths. In the First Age, Dragonblooded could fight Second Circle Demons. Not safely, perhaps, but as equals. In the First Age, a Third Circle toed the line for a united host would bring it low, even if a few of Creation's greatest defenders might fall in battle.
This is not the First Age. This is the Second Age, much diminished. If mortals face a First Circle, no matter how well trained and well equipped, they won't keep up, and with the poor medicine now available there will be a few permanently crippled at the end of the fight, or rather more likely, dead and dying. The Dragonblooded are not what they used to be, much of their equipment lost to the ravages of time and war and what remains carefully hoarded, but a Sworn Brotherhood can still lay Second Circle Demons low, if at a cost.
But Third Circles? In this fallen age, there is no united Host. In this fallen Age there are no Lunars ready to jump into the fray to stall the Demon while a team of Solars prepare. There is no Sidereal to spin the threads of Fate so that the demon is entangled while mortals can flee from the conflict safely. And there's no Solar master combatant ready to bring the hurt.
In the Second Age, a Third Circle on the loose is the sort of thing that ruins nations, and there's no one left to pick up the pieces.
This is generally easy with Demon of the First Circle, and not hard with Demon of the Second. First Circle Demons are going to be unusually potent if they hit E4, while most Second Circles aren't going beyond E6, with most at E4 or E5, both Essence scores a player could reach in general (if extended) play. At the same time, Second Circles aren't going to have anywhere near the same level of anti Summoning defenses as Demons of the Third Circle, and even if they have some, Demon of the Second Circle is the sort of spell you spend a month preparing for and involves you dumping a lot of motes on debuffing the demon in question and keeping a combat specced Celestial close at hand just in case things go wrong and you roll all ones while their chance die comes up with a ten.
Demon of the Third Circle though?
Demon of the Third Circle is the Summoning spell that, like much Adamant Circle Sorcery, demonstrates 'can' does not equal 'should' or 'is a good idea.' Because you can reach it at Essence 5. And at Essence 5, the demons you'd likely be interested in Summoning probably have the kind of dicepools where, debuffed as much as you can, they have dice parity with you.
That's not a big problem with a First or even Second Circle Demon, if you have the right precautions.
Third Circles aren't First or Second Circle Demons. First Circles are tools, even if they are living, sapient things. Second Circle Demons are buildings that would define an entire city's character, weapons that destroy armies or merchants that trade in the dreams of their lessers. Not so Third Circle Demons. These are the beings that would define what an entire Direction of Creation is known for, a city palace of debauchery, a chasm that swallows the betrayers, a roaming shadow of music that twists those that hear and see it, a plague of melancholy or the baleful gaze of a green sun that will take no peace.
In the First Age, a skilled team of mortals could bring down a First Circle, and expect injuries but no deaths. In the First Age, Dragonblooded could fight Second Circle Demons. Not safely, perhaps, but as equals. In the First Age, a Third Circle toed the line for a united host would bring it low, even if a few of Creation's greatest defenders might fall in battle.
This is not the First Age. This is the Second Age, much diminished. If mortals face a First Circle, no matter how well trained and well equipped, they won't keep up, and with the poor medicine now available there will be a few permanently crippled at the end of the fight, or rather more likely, dead and dying. The Dragonblooded are not what they used to be, much of their equipment lost to the ravages of time and war and what remains carefully hoarded, but a Sworn Brotherhood can still lay Second Circle Demons low, if at a cost.
But Third Circles? In this fallen age, there is no united Host. In this fallen Age there are no Lunars ready to jump into the fray to stall the Demon while a team of Solars prepare. There is no Sidereal to spin the threads of Fate so that the demon is entangled while mortals can flee from the conflict safely. And there's no Solar master combatant ready to bring the hurt.
In the Second Age, a Third Circle on the loose is the sort of thing that ruins nations, and there's no one left to pick up the pieces.
- Location
- The end of all things
Oh, very much this. Summoning him(or any other fetich) without an overwhelmingly compelling reason is a terrible idea. Ignore, for the moment, how much harder he is to bind. Ignore that he has far greater resources with which to attempt revenge. What happens if you manage to somehow get him killed for real?
Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
One thing I like about 3e demon summoning is how it runs off a compared roll against Resolve. Meaning that you really want to research the demon before hand so you don't run into the Defining Intimacy +4 difficulty wall. And given you can't banish a Third Circle if you fuck up the summon like the other Circles, you really don't want be taking chances.
(Liger probably has Gilgamesh-esque 'fuck you external influences, my ego will not allow you to control me' Resolve boosters to. Summoning him is gonna be stupidly risky without research.)
(Liger probably has Gilgamesh-esque 'fuck you external influences, my ego will not allow you to control me' Resolve boosters to. Summoning him is gonna be stupidly risky without research.)
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
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He was also explicitly mentioned in the post I was responding to, which is why I used him.
3CDs have a summoning resistance pool between 18 and 25 dice. Without sinking xp into Immanent Solar Glory (like @Shyft mentioned), you can cut up to 5 dice off (more likely 4 dice, because Virtues).
Basically, summoning a 3CD should never be looked at purely as resource denial. 3CDs are not a resource to be controlled. They are massive forces that you need to pray you can shackle to your will, or else your attempt to keep them from being used against you enables their attack on you.
A skilled team of mortals can still take down a 1CD. A sworn brotherhood of Terrestrials can still take down a 2CD. A circle of Celestials can take down a 3CD.
These are all more difficult feats, but a 3CD doesn't require a full Exalted Host to combat it. A squad of well-trained Celestials can do it. There will likely be losses, but it's 100% doable (a Solar/Abyssal/Infernal warrior can reach a similar combat tier around Essence 4 without being 100% optimized).
Clearly the only reason to summon a 3rd Circle is if you're a Celestial-Circle Infernal and your Unquestionable superior has demanded it.
And given that you can cast All-Commanding Oversoul Beckoning once a month, a dedicated Infernal could release a whole lot of hurt on Creation.
Though I suppose the difficulty there is how you explain to, say, Erembour that she's 7th on the waiting list without getting your skin taken off.
And given that you can cast All-Commanding Oversoul Beckoning once a month, a dedicated Infernal could release a whole lot of hurt on Creation.
Though I suppose the difficulty there is how you explain to, say, Erembour that she's 7th on the waiting list without getting your skin taken off.
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You might've wanted to read further in that post, I addressed that. The big issue for 3rd Circles is that a Sorceror is both unlikely to have the required power to bind them reliably, nor will he have the required level of back up to ensure minimal to no damage despite a failed binding. No doubt a 3rd Circle will be laid low eventually, if they don't just leave, but a good chunk of the Direction is going to notice the after shocks of the event.
Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
Hell, I'm pretty sure I could build an unenlightened heroic mortal that could go toe to toe with your average demon pretty well. It would be using stuff like Demon-Scorching Celestial Weapon and thamaturgy more generally, but being a demon hunter is a pretty good heroic mortal concept.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
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"There are no Lunars, there are no Sidereals, there are no Solars" is your explanation?
Really?
Really?
Two of those statements have been false the entire time, and the last is no longer true as of the setting's modern time. The summoning of a 3CD - controlled or otherwise - is one of those occasions where you can expect most of the opposing factions to stop throwing their big hitters at each other so they can pile on the demon because fuck that shit. Nobody can afford to let a 3CD run around Creation.
That's basically the kind of skill I meant.
Interesting stuff that I am going to shamelessly steal.
Given the focus on the rivers of death, Abyssal Sail is probably a lot more useful, right?
Also, is distance the same between Creation and the Underworld? By which, say there are two Shadowlands fifty miles apart in Creation, would they be roughly fifty miles apart in the Underworld too or would you be able to use the Rivers like a Sidereal can use the Yu-Shan gates?
Or would something like that be more what you invest in Abyssal Sail and/or Necromancy for?
Oh neat, so they come prepackaged with the ability to go "Behold my True Form and Despair!" without having to get B.O.S.S.
- Location
- The end of all things
I only mentioned him as his thematics were appropriate for describing the
A familiar will get you another five motes, so getting 5 dice isn't that unreasonable, though that should only come after maxing ISG. If you grab Glory to the Most High for Essence 6, that will get you effectively another 3 dice. There's still a nontrivial risk of catastrophic failure, though. Do it enough times without substantial precautions and you will get burned.
Though banishing a Third Circle Demon after failing the binding should not be difficulty 3. That's just insane. 3e's "Haha, you're fucked!" is much better.
Agreed. It's more a question of risk vs. opportunity cost. Though I doubt it was all that uncommon for two sorcerers to attempt to summon the same demon at the same time.
A halfway idea might be a Difficulty of (Circle x 3), or 9 for banishing a 3CD after a failed Binding?
I
Even at the height of the Deliberative, there were only 300 people capable of even learning 3CD summoning, and not all of them ever bothered, or were willing to pay the costs necessary for initiation into Adamant Level Sorcery.
Add to this the fact that even Solars would try for Circle backup before calling a 3CD, and I doubt there's ever been that kind of clash.
That, and there's still only five days a year that it even be attempted.
Plus, in the First Age, the Calibration Feast was instituted specifically to cut down on Sorcerer's getting funny ideas.
- Location
- The end of all things
It's far more likely than you might think. Have you heard of the birthday paradox? There's a 50% chance that at least two people in ~20 share a birthday. There aren't that many 3CD, maybe 600 or so. Assuming ~20 summonings per calibration and it's going to happen at least once a decade.
Further, that assumes the Demons are chosen randomly, which is almost never going to be the case. Some are simply not suitable for much of anything. Some are too erratic, and some are inherently too dangerous. In peaceful times, people are going to summon demons for crafting and infrastructure, not war. If you want to build roads, is there any better than Jacint? Thankfully, if you lose on the first day of Calibration you might be able to summon your second choice the next night.
3rd Circle Demons can be in multiple places at the same time. Summoning Jacint doesn't stop anyone else from summoning him. Or, at least, it wouldn't have done so in the first age. Recently, Jacint was wounded in some way that prevents him from being in multiple places at once, though this is a restriction that only he has at the moment.
- Location
- The end of all things
This is explicitly not the case, which is kind of sad, because a twenty Ligier Brawl would have been glorious. From a large distance.
RoGD II said:
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
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You're assuming 20/300 Solars didn't attend the Calibration Feast each year (which was frowned upon in the "expect assassins" sense, because unless you had duties you had to attend to the rest of the Deliberative would assume you were Up To Something). You're assuming all 20 of these Solars were Sorcerers who had initiated to the Adamant Circle (doubly frowned upon, in the "expect Sidereal hitmen" sense because these are exactly the people who the Feast is meant to put in the spotlight). You're assuming all 20 of these Adamant Circle Sorcerers wanted to summon a 3CD - a task that's not only difficult but also probably rings alarm bells in Yu Shan (and is triply frowned upon in the "you are going to be assassinated" sense).
TL;DR no.
The Calibration feast was instituted by Salina, and the description says that it was in the last few centuries circa the date Dreams of the First Age is set in. So, that's about 3204 years where there was no Calibration feast. Are you assuming it retroactively applied? Salina was crazy, but I don't think even she could get enough support to do a Shimanic Calibration to pull that off.
And the stuff about sidereal hit squads is ridiculous: Sidereal Death squads are only something that really applies to the second age. In the first age, The Solars, Lunars, and Sidereals worked together. And while summoning a third circle is dangerous, it's not against any law.
