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General Exalted Thread

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Holden "yes he still has 7 wangs" Shearer is not in any position to talk about turning one's brain on or removing one's head from their ass, least of all right after using the "all art is political" line.
 
BigBad said:
He says they were champions of radical inclusivity, which they were. Their actual implementation was problematic in many respects, but those old WW games still tried.
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Bluntly, I don't think that's actually true. Like, I've read The Making of Exalted, it is chock full of wince-worthy racist crud. I find it a lot easier and more credible to understand old WW's output in terms of your standard edgy white male desire for novelty and shock value than any commitment to radical inclusivity.
 
Thoughts on Revised Infernals (still reading through everything):

I like them a lot. All the new charms are fun, and most of the new takes on old charms fit really well with the WoD. I might change a few back to capture their old flavor (Intolerable Burning Truths kind of got the shaft here and its one of my favorite charms) but overall I am very happy with them.

No perfects (which is understandable but I might try to bring back) and no defence against unexpected attacks ( I assume unexpected attacks don't exist in this system) but both those changes feel like changes required to fit the new system/setting.

The hells are more clearly divided between Yozi. Last edition had more of Cecelyne in the Hell of Being Flayed Alive iirc. But it works fine honestly.

All the hells add some great new flavor to the charms. The Wicked City has some of my favorite charms, but Lanka or whatever got some great ones as well.

Signature Charms. I absolutely adore signature charms. They are a great way to make your Shintai feel more unique/powerful. I want my Infernal to have literally all of them (but since he can't I am choosing The Key to the Kingdom when he gets his second Shintai. Not sure yet about the first one. There are just too many to choose.)

Shintais are great. Nothing much to say here except that I think they are perfect.

No Manse stuff in Cecelyne, which is kind of shame. Her geographic blessing stuff were kind of integral for the character I was designing for a hypothetical Exalted Modern! Game.

Which brings us to our next point. Infernals seem to have less of an ability to effect large scale social changes. An Infernal can still, like, run for president, but they aren't going to be changing the course of society with a charm or Rewriting The Laws of Physics! with a series of Cecelyne Manses. Which works for the smaller scale that WoD goes for, but it does neatly torpedo my character concept who wanted to Rewrite the Laws of Reality! It is also something of a shame since the Infernals are supposed to be harbingers of a new world. You'd think they'd have more powers for making that new world come about.

Question:
Has anyone played W20? Is the base system good?

HalfTangible said:
Holden "yes he still has 7 wangs" Shearer is not in any position to talk about turning one's brain on or removing one's head from their ass, least of all right after using the "all art is political" line.
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I'm gonna regret this, but what did he do?
 
Red Orion said:
I'm gonna regret this, but what did he do?
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He wrote an Abyssals preview, which featured lines like the aforementioned 7 wangs one as well as giving PCs the ability to summon ghosts to "ravish" their victims.

Now, this is... not necessarily as damning as it's made out to be (this would certainly not be the first time Holden tried to use Big Words without understanding what they actually mean), but his defense also included lines like - I'm paraphrasing, mind - "well if you decide to get together with the very obviously abyssal-coded seducer, you deserve what you get", which is, shall we say, not a good look.
 
elfgames said:
He wrote an Abyssals preview, which featured lines like the aforementioned 7 wangs one as well as giving PCs the ability to summon ghosts to "ravish" their victims.

Now, this is... not necessarily as damning as it's made out to be (this would certainly not be the first time Holden tried to use Big Words without understanding what they actually mean), but his defense also included lines like - I'm paraphrasing, mind - "well if you decide to get together with the very obviously abyssal-coded seducer, you deserve what you get", which is, shall we say, not a good look.
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Also the defence of said 'ravishment ghosts' as, "... there is no rape-- "rape" in the sense of "hold you down and stick it in," as opposed to the sense of "anything that creeps me out" -- anywhere in the preview PDF. "Ravish" is used in the fashion of bodice-rippers, a style intentionally adopted when tacking toward the Lover. Judging from the hullabaloo, it's clearly a word-choice we might have looked at more carefully since these are thumbnail concepts rather than full explanations, but hey, bit late for revisions."

That said, as bad as that incident was I'd prefer not to make too much of it at this point. This mess is eight years dry by now, and people change. I prefer to save relitigating the past for when someone actually, y'know, makes statements about what the past was like as part of something to do with the present.
 
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It's an old controversy at this point. I only bring it up because this appendix is a pretty clear example of Holden throwing stones from his glass house.
 
I disagree, but moving on from Holden to avoid a derail, the fanbook itself is very well done. I particularly like the Alchemicals and the Sidereals.

Alchemical Exalted can apply a power called Iron Fang Upgrade to four- or five-dot Familiars that lets them install a single Alchemical Charm on their familiar. Cyborg dogs!
 
One thing I am noticing (and I touched on this with my initial thoughts) is that Infernals (and I am assuming the other splats) have a much reduced ability for "nation building". The lack of a manse or sorcerous projects system means they can't perform large scale magical changes to areas, and they lack many of the social charms which let them change the course of nations or even build their own.

This makes sense, as the WoD is an urban fantasy setting and as such part of the appeal is playing in "our world" and also in existing in a sort of secret parallel society to ours. Replacing, say, the USA with a magical theocracy which worships the Infernal messes with that.

But I still kind of wish that those capabilities were kept. I like playing overpowered characters who warp the setting around them and causing big changes. For me, part of the appeal of porting Exalted characters into an existing setting like WoD is in seeing how that setting reacts to the inclusion of what is effectively a new Nation State (because Exalts are powerful enough they act more like States than individuals on the strategic scale). It can be fun to see how the setting deforms around such a large change, and playing around with a setting which is in the middle of such a dynamic change.

All that being said, I hope as I read through the rest of the charms we get social charms which aimed at like, building conspiracies or controlling societies indirectly. Becoming a corrupt CEO with more power than the presiden a la Lex Luthor or starting a secret society which shapes the course of nations is 100% Urban Fantasy OK and would be a great way to maintain the appeal of Exalts as nation builders without ruining the appeal of an Urban Fantasy setting.
 
Problem with Exalted Nation Building in the World of Darkness is that you are going to run into the already-extant global conspiracies. The Syndicate and New World order, the Camarilla and the Sabbat, Pentex and Black Spiral Dancers.

To start building a new nation-state of your own, first you need to survive long enough to get it running and there's a big ol' doomsday clock ticking in the sky.
 
BigBad said:
To start building a new nation-state of your own, first you need to survive long enough to get it running and there's a big ol' doomsday clock ticking in the sky.
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That's generally how nation-building works in Exalted, yeah.
"The world has been arranged to oppose your presence and everyone who doesn't want to use you for their own goals wants you dead" is, uh, kind of the default expectation a lot of Exalted players have when they play the game that has a consistent thread of heroes rising up to overthrow the corrupt status quo.
 
Red Orion said:
One thing I am noticing (and I touched on this with my initial thoughts) is that Infernals (and I am assuming the other splats) have a much reduced ability for "nation building". The lack of a manse or sorcerous projects system means they can't perform large scale magical changes to areas, and they lack many of the social charms which let them change the course of nations or even build their own.

This makes sense, as the WoD is an urban fantasy setting and as such part of the appeal is playing in "our world" and also in existing in a sort of secret parallel society to ours. Replacing, say, the USA with a magical theocracy which worships the Infernal messes with that.

But I still kind of wish that those capabilities were kept. I like playing overpowered characters who warp the setting around them and causing big changes. For me, part of the appeal of porting Exalted characters into an existing setting like WoD is in seeing how that setting reacts to the inclusion of what is effectively a new Nation State (because Exalts are powerful enough they act more like States than individuals on the strategic scale). It can be fun to see how the setting deforms around such a large change, and playing around with a setting which is in the middle of such a dynamic change.

All that being said, I hope as I read through the rest of the charms we get social charms which aimed at like, building conspiracies or controlling societies indirectly. Becoming a corrupt CEO with more power than the presiden a la Lex Luthor or starting a secret society which shapes the course of nations is 100% Urban Fantasy OK and would be a great way to maintain the appeal of Exalts as nation builders without ruining the appeal of an Urban Fantasy setting.
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There is a section about this in chapter 10 (which I know of only because it's referenced in the FAQ), that more or less says that this was all deliberate but if you want to up the power there are various things you can do.

I haven't played EvWoD or the base system well enough to judge just by reading, but I am told that their ability to murder all the named NPCs, including all the overpowered Elders, is relatively absolute, which could well provide at least some of the vast setting change you are looking for. Though apparently they run out of essence fast enough that it is impractical to personally go on a murder crusade against something like the US army in one sitting.
 
BigBad said:
Problem with Exalted Nation Building in the World of Darkness is that you are going to run into the already-extant global conspiracies. The Syndicate and New World order, the Camarilla and the Sabbat, Pentex and Black Spiral Dancers.

To start building a new nation-state of your own, first you need to survive long enough to get it running and there's a big ol' doomsday clock ticking in the sky.
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You say problem, I say "fun campaign".

Exthalion said:
There is a section about this in chapter 10 (which I know of only because it's referenced in the FAQ), that more or less says that this was all deliberate but if you want to up the power there are various things you can do.

I haven't played EvWoD or the base system well enough to judge just by reading, but I am told that their ability to murder all the named NPCs, including all the overpowered Elders, is relatively absolute, which could well provide at least some of the vast setting change you are looking for. Though apparently they run out of essence fast enough that it is impractical to personally go on a murder crusade against something like the US army in one sitting.
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Yeah, I understand why Holden made that choice and I even think its the right one. Its just one that doesn't appeal as much to me personally.

Basically, I am saying two things:

1: I really enjoy Exalts as beings who, by their very existence, radically alter the nature of the setting. The nation building stuff is a big part of this as it lets them create entirely new polities and thus radically alter the map of creation, but them being OP in general just makes them really fun. The existence of a new creature who can fight an Elder Vamp is going to cause ripples no matter what.

2: (As far as I can tell having not yet digested all the Infernal charms yet) Holden made the choice to limit the ability of the Infernal Exalted to shape/build nations in order to better preserve the integrity and appeal of WoD. While upending the setting can be a fun campaign on occasion, if the Exalts have the power to do that then every campaign ends up being about upending the setting.

That said, I would have liked to see charms more focused on building secret societies and stuff so that players can still engage in Urban Fantasy OK nation building. Yes, we don't want our Exalted creating the new nation of Oriontopia, at least we don't want them doing it with obvious magic which breaks the masquerade. But I do wish there were more support for building secret societies and other organizations which can operate at the scale of nations without outright being them.
 
I had to make a lot of settings changes to make WoD stuff work. DB's get the same resistancses as all other exalts, lunars are way more 3e than 2e, sidereals are actually more than just helping out other exalts, etc. I like it but concept wise it's painfully 2e in the not good way here and there.
 
Red Orion said:
You say problem, I say "fun campaign".



Yeah, I understand why Holden made that choice and I even think its the right one. Its just one that doesn't appeal as much to me personally.

Basically, I am saying two things:

1: I really enjoy Exalts as beings who, by their very existence, radically alter the nature of the setting. The nation building stuff is a big part of this as it lets them create entirely new polities and thus radically alter the map of creation, but them being OP in general just makes them really fun. The existence of a new creature who can fight an Elder Vamp is going to cause ripples no matter what.

2: (As far as I can tell having not yet digested all the Infernal charms yet) Holden made the choice to limit the ability of the Infernal Exalted to shape/build nations in order to better preserve the integrity and appeal of WoD. While upending the setting can be a fun campaign on occasion, if the Exalts have the power to do that then every campaign ends up being about upending the setting.

That said, I would have liked to see charms more focused on building secret societies and stuff so that players can still engage in Urban Fantasy OK nation building. Yes, we don't want our Exalted creating the new nation of Oriontopia, at least we don't want them doing it with obvious magic which breaks the masquerade. But I do wish there were more support for building secret societies and other organizations which can operate at the scale of nations without outright being them.
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Well, he actually does intend for most games to upend the setting and metaplot it seems, but it's calibrated to do so in specific ways:

A lot of the power calibrations on Charms were
done with the intention of funneling stories into "Exalts
vs monsters" instead of "Exalts immediately take
over all human societies and try to rebuild the First
Age in Toronto."
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(I think this is that chapter 10 quote that was mentioned earlier. There are probably others.)

There's a whole section on 'here are some hypothetical powers that each clan Antediluvian probably has' so that you can raise a giant middle finger to the "You lose" stat blocks of yesteryear as you dunk each of them into the trash one after the next. You gotta kick the setting in the gibblies by actually kicking.
 
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MiracleGrow said:
I had to make a lot of settings changes to make WoD stuff work. DB's get the same resistancses as all other exalts, lunars are way more 3e than 2e, sidereals are actually more than just helping out other exalts, etc. I like it but concept wise it's painfully 2e in the not good way here and there.
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Can you define what you mean by 2e in a bad way? We talking mechanics or fluff or both? Also any examples you could give of that?
SerGregness said:
Well, he actually does intend for most games to upend the setting and metaplot it seems, but it's calibrated to do so in specific ways:
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Yeah, like I said, I get that. Like, I understand (and agree with) the decision to remove charms which let you go "I take over Toronto and start turning it into the first age". Allowing that sort of play ruins much of the appeal of playing WoD.

I just wish those charms had been replaced with ones which enabled "I build a secret society which controls Toronto from the shadows".

(I also want the ability for players to go "loud" and take over Toronto, forcing the various conspiracies to either shut them down or deal with a broken masquerade. But I am aware this is very much a me thing.)
 
Red Orion said:
Can you define what you mean by 2e in a bad way? We talking mechanics or fluff or both? Also any examples you could give of that?

Yeah, like I said, I get that. Like, I understand (and agree with) the decision to remove charms which let you go "I take over Toronto and start turning it into the first age". Allowing that sort of play ruins much of the appeal of playing WoD.

I just wish those charms had been replaced with ones which enabled "I build a secret society which controls Toronto from the shadows".

(I also want the ability for players to go "loud" and take over Toronto, forcing the various conspiracies to either shut them down or deal with a broken masquerade. But I am aware this is very much a me thing.)
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Fluff specifically. The Lunar stuff is groan worthy and I way prefeer the way they work concept wise in 3e over 2e. So I have to go in and basically rewrite all their shit.

I made the Dragonblood have the same resistancses to weird WoD stuff as all the other exalted do cause they play a massive role in the game I'm running at the moment.

Sidereals I can't quite remember what annoyed me about them. So I'll have to take a second look. I got a bunch of overall gripes that I written down somewhere and it will take me some time to get to them. Including 'lore' changes to make the WoD crossover stuff much smoother. One off the top of my head I did was cybernetic limbs starting to become significantly more common and easy to access to the casual person. I got a document I'll need to pour over.

The majority of these things are stuff I did to tailor it better to my specific tabletop group. So I'm not in anyway saying that how I'm handling it should be the best way.
 
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Players absolutely have the ability to go loud and take over Toronto and tell all the other conspiracies to 'come at me, bro'. They do this by fighting and killing everyone in Toronto who disagrees with them, training their underlings (Tiger Warriors are still there) to deal with things without them, and generally just being divine champions from the dawn of time.
 
MiracleGrow said:
Fluff specifically. The Lunar stuff is groan worthy and I way prefeer the way they work concept wise in 3e over 2e. So I have to go in and basically rewrite all their shit.

I made the Dragonblood have the same resistancses to weird WoD stuff as all the other exalted do cause they play a massive role in the game I'm running at the moment.

Sidereals I can't quite remember what annoyed me about them. So I'll have to take a second look. I got a bunch of overall gripes that I written down somewhere and it will take me some time to get to them. Including 'lore' changes to make the WoD crossover stuff much smoother. One off the top of my head I did was cybernetic limbs starting to become significantly more common and easy to access to the casual person. I got a document I'll need to pour over.

The majority of these things are stuff I did to tailor it better to my specific tabletop group. So I'm not in anyway saying that how I'm handling it should be the best way.
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Are you Holden?
 
So, because I was bored, I started adding XS statblocks to some of the 1CD in the Green Cherry Demononicon.

(the fact that XS has a lot of convergence with how I do quick characters for Kerisgame also helped me go "yes this is a good and productive use of my time")

Kezkutya, the Nimble-Handed Dogs
Alchemically Talented Aides 9
Skilled Glass Blowers 6
Thrown Potions and Glassware 4
Resolve: 4
Health: 6
Hardness: 4
Essence: 2
Defence: 4
Soak: 3
Tereki''s Loyal Aides - When assisting another character in matters of bureaucracy or alchemy, once per scene spend 1 mote to grant a three dice bonus to their roll.

Legyallat, the Fly Ogres
Lumbering Clumsy Labourer: 10
Keen Taste and Smell 7
Bravery 2
Resolve: 2
Health: 10
Hardness: 4
Essence: 2
Defence: 5
Soak: 6
Swarm of Flies - Spend 1 mote. Characters who end their turn within close range suffer a 1 damage/interval swarm of insects.
Clumsy Cowards - Despite their great strength, a fly ogre is a coward. They will not willingly fight, unless their own life is in danger or they are commanded to do so by a character who they have an intimacy of fear towards.

Suttogaskes, the Whispering Knives
Cutting Throats 9
The Theology of Time 6
Whispering In Dreams 4
Resolve: 3
Health: 7
Hardness: 3
Essence: 1
Defence: 5
Soak: 4
A Fine Blade - A user can wield a suttogaskes as a fine knife with the following traits - Thrown, Concealable, Piercing. The demon benefits from these traits with its own attacks. A character may use the demon's "Cutting Throats" skill as his attack pool, but this counts as his Step 1 charm activation.
Dream-Whisperer - Once per night, a suttogaskes may spend one mote and make an influence action against a sleeping target in the same room as it. The influence action is conveyed in the form of strange, half-remembered dreams.

Szerlemka, the Featherwolf Lures
Corruption in the Name of the Yozis 10
Feral Savagery 6
Divination 3
Resolve: 4
Health: 7
Hardness: 5
Essence: 3
Defence: 5
Soak: 3
Featherwolf Transformation - Upon tasting the blood of a character, the featherwolf lure transforms into the target's perfect muse. This reduces the difficulty of instilling a Principle in the target by 1. This transformation is not voluntary. The effect ends the next time the demon tastes blood.
Constant Faith - The demon adds 1 to the difficulty of instilling them with a principle that opposes their faith in Ianade's visions of the will of the Yozis.


(annoyingly, I had a nice looking table in my gdoc, but copying it here into the forum post meant all the merged cells fell apart and I just ended up having to paste it linearly to make it readable)
 
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