I mean, given that we're told that there are around five thousand foreign outcastes, assumedly these are those DB rulers that you're talking about. Although admittedly iirc it's more mortal rulers trying to have DBs enter their service than the other way around, but the sheer number of foreign outcastes mean that yes, non-Prasad/Realm/Lookshy DB bloodlines probably do exist around Creation.

On the other hand it seems to be that DB dynasties don't just spawn out of the ether. It's incredibly hard to form a new one, what with need to tightly control bloodlines lest Terrestrial blood thin out. Sure a pair of DBs can easily start a bloodline, but then as time passes its gonna get difficult keeping it intact. Like, House Ferem is notable in how many DBs it has, and even then they only have a hundred scions in total (which I'm pretty sure includes non-Exalted? I swear I've read the number of DBs Ferem has somewhere, but I can't seem to find it). The Realm and Lookshy had the advantage of coopting Shogunate bloodlines which allowed them access to huge DB pools that allow them to continue dynasties, the random Threshold kingdom does not. (Assumedly Prasad has something too that allows them to maintain such high numbers of DBs, haven't really read about them since I don't find them particularly interesting.)

TL;DR, while DB rulers undoubtedly exist and are probably quite common, I'd hesitate on DB dynasties due to the sheer difficulty of forming one.
 
I have asked this exact question before and been told on the forums that Threshold DB generally skip off the the Realm because they can offer a much better deal than whatever podunk petty kingdom the Terrestrial was from. Which seems... extremely at odds with how real people behave. Lest it be said: I'm not saying that Terrestrial rule should be the standard everywhere or that mortals can't do things. I'm saying it should be more common and visible. "How does this polity continue to exist in the face of supernatural threats" is an important question in Creation and Terrestrial Warrior-Aristocrats are one of the most reliable solutions.
Well, yeah, "most outcastes go to the Realm" is the 2e assumption, and a lot of people are still mentally there for this topic.

"Why do mortals rule so many places", though, is like... a much less interesting question. We have a bunch of DB polities and weird groups and stuff. It is reasonable to assume that there are more and to like, fill those in as needed. I do not personally feel like the written material having a lot of places ruled by mortals is weird, and have mostly just found this conversation really tedious in the past.
 
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I mean, there's a definite incentive for gods, elementals, ghosts and whatever to want to have mortals on thrones. If it's a Terrestrial up there, they can match you blow for blow if not worse. A mortal can be seduced, bribed, awed, etc. They're just easier, so a lot of local spirits push Dragonbloods as far from the position of big honcho as possible. Better to have them in secondary positions.
 
The answer to why Why Do Mortals Rule A Lot Of Places is blatantly obvious, and that is Exalts are supposed to be RARE. I know games and players take the approach that you can't go five feet without tripping over an Exalt bu even for DBs you've only got a couple of ten thousand in the world *period*, that's not even enough to fill a decently sized city, and for the celestials even if you go with the approach the hard caps are no longer in place, between the Solaroids and the other Celestials you're maybe cracking 1500. That's not a lot of people spread out across a large scope of land!

Edit: Also like, a lot of supernatural threats that aren't spirits aren't so supernatural as to be inherently unbeatable by mortal hands. It just takes some careful planning, ingenuity and maybe a lot of bodies, and humans are generally pretty good at doing that when they decide something needs to fucking die. Fuck, one of the most dangerous things in Creation isn't even inherently supernatural at all! A Tyrant Lizard can and will just fuck up the day of most whatever beastie they go against, magical or not.
 
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For what it's worth, I always get the impression Exalt really are rare enough most polities you meet likely won't be ruled by Exalts, DB or otherwise. And of course, not all DBs want to be (or good at) being ruler anyway.
 
Don't consider yourself limited to he geography of the map. That way lies madness. if you want a map or a mountain range somewhere, put it there, even if the maps says otherwise.
 
The map's scale is also so large that presumably, most bodies of water just aren't shown on it. The Scavenger Lands have a lot more rivers than is shown there as well.
 
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Alright, for a different sort of discussion than I've seen here.

What direction or part of the map are most of your games in? West, East, South, North, Above, Below, Underneath?

My first Exalted game started out in the far east in landlocked!Japan, before moving down to Thorns and the surrounding areas. The second one is a planet-jumping game based off of Gunstar Autobot.
 
Alright, for a different sort of discussion than I've seen here.

What direction or part of the map are most of your games in? West, East, South, North, Above, Below, Underneath?

My first Exalted game started out in the far east in landlocked!Japan, before moving down to Thorns and the surrounding areas. The second one is a planet-jumping game based off of Gunstar Autobot.
Most of my games are set in the East or the South, though I tend to just homebrew the locations. The game I'm playing with @mothematics as my storyteller is set in the northwest.
 
I've spent the most time in the South, but I honestly try to vary it up. So I've run stuff in the South, West, and North, and played things in the South, the Scavenger Lands, and soon the North.

A game on the Blessed Isle would be great sometime.
 
I would run a ton of stuff in the north west along those super coral reefs. But sail system is such ass I can't be bothered. Probs can do it in Essence tho.
 
The answer to why Why Do Mortals Rule A Lot Of Places is blatantly obvious, and that is Exalts are supposed to be RARE. I know games and players take the approach that you can't go five feet without tripping over an Exalt bu even for DBs you've only got a couple of ten thousand in the world *period*, that's not even enough to fill a decently sized city, and for the celestials even if you go with the approach the hard caps are no longer in place, between the Solaroids and the other Celestials you're maybe cracking 1500. That's not a lot of people spread out across a large scope of land!
To use this as a jumping-off point, in the Shahnameh, the national epic of Iran, the main character Rustam is easily one of the strongest men in the world. His opening act of heroism is killing an elephant with a single strike while still a young teenager and when he is a man he has slain the White Demon of Mazandaran and his entire army, tamed a horse that kills lions, single-handedly conquered the unconquerable fortress of Nariman, slain a dragon, killed countless demons and freed the Shah himself from the grasps of evil. He is in every sense of the word, a hero beyond compare and is regarded as such. When pressed by his sovereign later in a moment of stress, grief and anger, he responds that:

Ferdowsi's Shahnameh said:
In his wrath he struck the hand
Of Tus, thou wouldst have said: "An elephant
Hath struck him!" Tus fell headlong to the ground
While Rustam passed him by with angry mien,
Went out, and mounted Rakhsh in wrath, exclaiming:
"I conquer lions and distribute crowns,
And who is Shah Kaus when I am angry,
Or Tus that he should lay a hand on me?
My might and my successes are from God,
Not from the Shah or host. Earth is my slave
And Rakhsh my throne, a mace my signet-ring,
A helm my crown ; my mates are sparth and spearhead?
My two arms and my heart my Shah. I lighten
Night with my sword and scatter heads in battle.
Why doth he vex me? I am not his slave
But God's. The warriors called me to be Shah,
But I refused the throne of sovereignty
And looked to custom, law, and precedent.
Do I deserve thy words? Art thou my patron?
Mine was the throne. I set Kubad thereon.
What care I for Kaus, his wrath and bluster?
If I had not fetched Kai Kubad myself,
When he had fallen into low estate,
And brought him to Iran from Mount Alburz,
Thou hadst not belt or vengeful scimitar,
Or might and majesty entitling thee
To speak a word to Zal the son of Sam."

And that:

Ferdowsi's Shahnameh said:
The hero said:
"I need not anything of Kai Kaus.
A saddle is my throne, a casque my crown,
My mail my raiment and my purpose death.
What is Kaus to me? A pinch of dust.
Why should I fear or tremble at his wrath?
Do I deserve such unbecoming words
From one that I released from bonds and led
To crown and throne? Once in Mazandaran
I fought against the divs, and once I fought
The monarch of Hamavaran and freed
Kaus in his foe's grip from bonds and woe.
Now I have had enough; my heart is full;
I fear but holy God."

And yet, he remains loyal to his sovereign, the - to be frank - utterly incompetent Kai Kaus. His sovereign, the Shah, is a bumbling fool who regularly gets himself into stupid escapades. He is at one point convinced to build a flying throne so he can be sovereign over not just what is beneath heaven, but also what is in heaven itself, and then promptly drifts off in his impossible construction and crashlands in the deserts of China. He wages an idiotic campaign against the land of Mazandaran and manages to get the entire army of Iran and himself captured by the White Demon of Mazandaran. In both cases, Rustam has to come rescue him and fix the problems, something which he regularly expresses frustration and annoyance at. But there is no point at which Iran's paladin simply says "lol no" and deposes the Shah. As he says himself, he "looked to law, custom, and precedent" and "refused the throne of sovereignty". Were he to depose Kai Kaus, he does not have any authority to rule the kingdom! Who would follow him? Who would submit to him? He is a vassal monarch of Sistan, not the Shah, not fit to sit on the Throne of Light, even if he might do a better job. Of course, part of this comes down to a degree of divine legitimacy, but in Iranian storytelling, divine favour can be revoked from an incompetent king, as it was to Jamshid, and given to a competent rebel, as it was to Ardashir. And I feel like this really should make the point- there are lots of Exalts who could probably in theory go up and just kill their non-Exalted monarch and declare a new state in their name, but they don't do so because they have some kind of investment - whether genuine or affected - in the system that rules them, or they don't want to, or they might have moral scruples or a million other objections. Of course there are plenty among the Exalted who would do such a thing; imperial Dynasts on campaign, usurpers with dubious yet sympathetic motives that you can fight at the end of an arc and player characters annoyed that their Influence 4 rating doesn't match all their other Merit 5 ratings all come to mind. But it strikes me, at least, as perhaps somewhat unlikely that any Exalt or powerful being would immediately desire to take power wherever they be.

And then you combine that with the small amount of Exalted people around in the world, the presence of social norms and the fact that many times it may simply be more advantageous not to topple a king as well as the influence of the divine and the threat of the imperial Wyld Hunt, and I think it all makes a lot of sense.
 
I've got 2 good campaign starts for my own games, one in Fortitude and one in Chiaroscuro. Most I've played have, funnily enough, centered around Thorns. My current game for GMing and playing both center around a custom civilization in that big lake to the southwest of Mahalanka.
 
In What Fire Has Wrought, one of the signature characters is an outcaste ruler of a threshold kingdom.
She is personally friends with people (two of the other Signature Characters, I think, maybe 3) in the Realm, but the kingdom doesn't seem to be subordinate to the Realm as a whole
 
Alright, for a different sort of discussion than I've seen here.

What direction or part of the map are most of your games in? West, East, South, North, Above, Below, Underneath?

My first Exalted game started out in the far east in landlocked!Japan, before moving down to Thorns and the surrounding areas. The second one is a planet-jumping game based off of Gunstar Autobot.

Most of my games have been set in the near southwest. An-Teng, or the bits north or south of it, but I ran an online game this last year on the shore of the Dreaming Sea as well.
 
In What Fire Has Wrought, one of the signature characters is an outcaste ruler of a threshold kingdom.
She is personally friends with people (two of the other Signature Characters, I think, maybe 3) in the Realm, but the kingdom doesn't seem to be subordinate to the Realm as a whole
Chalima's the queen of a Hundred Kingdoms principality called Achus, which is pretty solidly outside the Realm's sphere of influence. Lookshy is the more relevant regional power there anyway, and maintains a very different kind of relationship with other polities than the Realm does. Chalima is Immaculate herself, but specifically she's an Intou Immaculate, which is a smaller sect that the Immaculate Order considers heretical due to it practicing ancestor worship.
 
On the other hand it seems to be that DB dynasties don't just spawn out of the ether. It's incredibly hard to form a new one, what with need to tightly control bloodlines lest Terrestrial blood thin out. Sure a pair of DBs can easily start a bloodline, but then as time passes its gonna get difficult keeping it intact. Like, House Ferem is notable in how many DBs it has, and even then they only have a hundred scions in total (which I'm pretty sure includes non-Exalted? I swear I've read the number of DBs Ferem has somewhere, but I can't seem to find it). The Realm and Lookshy had the advantage of coopting Shogunate bloodlines which allowed them access to huge DB pools that allow them to continue dynasties, the random Threshold kingdom does not. (Assumedly Prasad has something too that allows them to maintain such high numbers of DBs, haven't really read about them since I don't find them particularly interesting.)

Ferem is noted to have roughly 100 scions in Heirs to the Shogunate, and are more or less deemed the largest cadet house for that reason, as most of them average 10-20 scions. This is explicitly their Dragon-blooded, and doesn't include the mortal members of the house, because, well:
They've maintained consistent marriage ties
to the Dynasty, and today sport just over a hundred
Exalted members — perhaps the largest of all cadet
houses.
Heirs to the Shogunate, pg. 12
 
So Holden, crazy person that he is, has just put out a revised version of Exalted vs the World of Darkness.

Here.

Quick skim of what's changed;

  • Infernals are in the main part of the book, Alchemicals and Liminals are in the appendix
  • Dragon Kings are in the Appendix(apparently, a friend begged Holden for them)
  • Sidereal Martial Arts are in under "The Secret Arts" though I haven't looked them over yet.
  • In general, the stuff from the Companion has been added to the book
  • There's rules for playing Dragon-Touched
  • There's also rules for Exalted selling their souls for power, but it's noted to be for antagonists
  • There's rules for Dark Ages Exalted vs World of Darkness or as I like to think of it, playing Netflix Castlevania.
  • New ending fiction.
 
Also lots of balance changes. Things like Fivefold Bulwark Stance needing to roll every round so you don't just roll once and ignore everyone for the rest of the scene. Excellencies and mote regen have been toned way down, but the first appendix has a bunch of optional rules widgets, including the pre-nerf excellencies and mote economy if you want that.
 
So Holden, crazy person that he is, has just put out a revised version of Exalted vs the World of Darkness.

Here.

Quick skim of what's changed;

  • Infernals are in the main part of the book, Alchemicals and Liminals are in the appendix
  • Dragon Kings are in the Appendix(apparently, a friend begged Holden for them)
  • Sidereal Martial Arts are in under "The Secret Arts" though I haven't looked them over yet.
  • In general, the stuff from the Companion has been added to the book
  • There's rules for playing Dragon-Touched
  • There's also rules for Exalted selling their souls for power, but it's noted to be for antagonists
  • There's rules for Dark Ages Exalted vs World of Darkness or as I like to think of it, playing Netflix Castlevania.
  • New ending fiction.

Also rules for Akuma, including the ability to cheat your Faustian bargain if you're sufficiently canny and gain a power boost without any real drawbacks!

Which I adore, frankly. You should absolutely be able to cheat Hell, kids from Georgia do it all the time what with their golden fiddles.
 
Appendix 6 said:
... I don't want politics in my games.
This is a game about breaking the cycles of corrupt systems and radical redistribution of power. It was political well before someone showed up and decided to be not straight, white, and male. Further: all art is political, and both Exalted and the classic World of Darkness are and have always been brazenly political. They were among the earliest and definitely the biggest champions of radical inclusivity within the hobby in the 1990s and 2000s, and this irrelevant, goofy-ass fan supplement is proud to carry on that tradition. If you never noticed this element of the classic WoD until now, you might have wasted years of your life with your head in your ass. Luckily, you can pick any day of your life to open your eyes and turn on your brain and start living in a world with people other than just you in it. Today would be a fine time to start.
I mean, it's a decent sentiment Holden, but I feel like ya miiight be burnishing White Wolf's record a mite more vigorously than it's fit to withstand there - or, at the very least, treating 'most radically inclusive TTRPG of the 1990's/2000's' as ah, a somewhat higher bar than it actually was.
 
I mean, it's a decent sentiment Holden, but I feel like ya miiight be burnishing White Wolf's record a mite more vigorously than it's fit to withstand there - or, at the very least, treating 'most radically inclusive TTRPG of the 1990's/2000's' as ah, a somewhat higher bar than it actually was.

He's also got this bit in the general content warning at the start of the book:

Just… look: They named the big eternal shadow
war of manipulation and proxies waged between ancient
vampires "the Jyhad." They got better about it
over time, but that's still a good gauge of the waters
we're sailing in, here.

So it doesn't sound to me like he's under any illusions about it. Though he does make a point of saying that the folks involved were 'well-intentioned', so I guess if you want to take issue with whether or not that's true the window is there but I wasn't really following White Wolf back then so I don't know what the case for it looks like.
 
He says they were champions of radical inclusivity, which they were. Their actual implementation was problematic in many respects, but those old WW games still tried. Wanna play a Romani or Syrian or Native American? You got it. Want to be queer or nonbinary or transgender? No problem. Want to be a devout pagan or a rationalist atheist or Christian with True Faith or even a demon-worshipping cultist? Just buy the book, my guy.

None of these portrayals were perfect. Some of them are pretty damn bad even by the standards of the time. But they were trying and they put their money where their mouth was.

Until Paradox tried to revive White Wolf for the modern era. Let's not talk about that.
 
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