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General Exalted Thread

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Gazetteer said:
If there's already one example from necromancy like Gentle Call of Lethe, then presumably there will be other similar rituals or effects in the world, albeit maybe not ones that are as simple or reliable. 2e had the Persephone thing, where if you eat food from the Underworld it ties your soul there after death, which I still kind of like as a point of curiosity. As for societies living in shadowlands having higher numbers, I really don't see any compelling reason why the ghosts coming out of such a culture would need to be any more or less fucked up than ghosts that came about through other means. Not all ghostly or Underworld essence is "Neverborn Essence", and it's more interesting to me to treat that as more of a case by case thing. What is a given society's relationship with death and the dead like to begin with? Engineering an entire culture like this is not what I'd call "easy production" of ghosts.

Talking about this in terms of "production" feels a bit wrongheaded to begin with, to me. We're talking about a fundamentally arcane and mystical event, not like... Just a purely mechanical feature of the world a player is gaming to get a ghost army like this is Minecraft or something. There is an Abyssal charm for training a bunch of people until they drop dead and their ghosts keep going, which is characteristically not very nice under most circumstances, but that kind of thing feels less special if you're treating all methods of making sure someone leaves behind a ghost as being primarily a method of military recruitment or something.
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While I don't disagree that there should be some moral means of creating ghosts, I feel they should by and large be exceptions, not the rule.

Like, yes, you can have something like this where an order of Paladins swear powerful oaths which bind them even after death. But that should also involve cultivating an obsessive intimacy towards their duty which is no less obsessive then the hatred of a murdered ghost's hatred for their child. It should make these paladins, even while alive, act with the same single-minded obsessiveness of a ghost or else fail to resurrect.

And that takes a lot of work.

Like, the point of this suggestions is two-fold.
1. It makes being an evil necromancer the default difficulty necromancy is designed around (just like how infernal charms are designed assuming you will use them like a Yozi).
2. It gives players who want to engage in necromancy mechanics on how to create ghosts. If every ghost has a statement in its write up which says "X ghost arises when Y happens" then players who want to engage with this can talk about how they cause those events, and players who don't can just say "yeah I do the ghost creation ritual or whatever".
 
Would an acceptable alternative be to create a situation where people want to be ghosts pro se? Say you have set up the local Underworld with a working that provides the benefits of the Five Gifts spell (probably a working in 3E), make sure they will be getting nice funerals and filial worship, and arranging for them to get training in all the new spooky powers they now have access to.

I could see getting volunteers for spectral "retirement" after life. Would that mere desire be enough to cause them to rise?
 
Exthalion said:
Would an acceptable alternative be to create a situation where people want to be ghosts pro se? Say you have set up the local Underworld with a working that provides the benefits of the Five Gifts spell (probably a working in 3E), make sure they will be getting nice funerals and filial worship, and arranging for them to get training in all the new spooky powers they now have access to.

I could see getting volunteers for spectral "retirement" after life. Would that mere desire be enough to cause them to rise?
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I wouldn't be against it, but I don't think it should be easy.

At least in 2e, we already have exalted charms which turn people into demons, so that gives you a baseline of what going from human to nonhuman entails.

What I would be leery of would be a setup where someone becomes a ghost without any of the downsides. Like, becoming a ghost should represent a pretty significant change in your mental state (at a minimum you are separating the hun and po).

Here is an example of how I would do it:

Ancestor Cult:
Upon death, the souls of this family are bound to the land. The Hun souls are mutated into beasts and bound to guard certain important locations, such as the main and subsidiary houses, sacred graves, etc. The Po are bound to the main house, where they provide their wisdom to the current head of the family. Occasionally a hun or po is bound not to the land, but the blood of a specific individual for guidance or protection.

While a benefit to the house, ancestor ghosts are vain and mote hungry. As long as the house continues to grow in power, these ghosts are well fed. But should the house seek its expansion it will likely find these ghosts beginning to starve from lack of prayer. In such situations it is all to common for the ancestors to take control of the family and force its expansion (basically, being dead in this instance is a pyramid scheme. Each ghosts needs several people's worth of prayer, so as long as the house keeps getting stronger then things are good, but if it stagnates then it will quickly have more ghosts then it can sustain and either implode or explode. Also, these ghosts are still ghosts. The Po care only for the well-being of the house. The key here is to emulate stories of venerable and noble houses fallen into disrepair yet still haunted by ghosts trying to regain their old glory.)

Creation: An individual must be ritually sacrificed, their blood allowed to drain into the land that binds them. This ritual costs at least 3 resources.
 
Red Orion said:
While I don't disagree that there should be some moral means of creating ghosts, I feel they should by and large be exceptions, not the rule.

Like, yes, you can have something like this where an order of Paladins swear powerful oaths which bind them even after death. But that should also involve cultivating an obsessive intimacy towards their duty which is no less obsessive then the hatred of a murdered ghost's hatred for their child. It should make these paladins, even while alive, act with the same single-minded obsessiveness of a ghost or else fail to resurrect.

And that takes a lot of work.

Like, the point of this suggestions is two-fold.
1. It makes being an evil necromancer the default difficulty necromancy is designed around (just like how infernal charms are designed assuming you will use them like a Yozi).
2. It gives players who want to engage in necromancy mechanics on how to create ghosts. If every ghost has a statement in its write up which says "X ghost arises when Y happens" then players who want to engage with this can talk about how they cause those events, and players who don't can just say "yeah I do the ghost creation ritual or whatever".
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Given that one of the most consistent and pervasive criticisms of how 2e handled necromancy is that it leaned way too far into "evil is the default", why is it even desirable to go out of our way to make it more the case now? Necromancy lends itself to morally dubious circumstances and abilities without trying to enforce "this should always be immoral" on top of it.

You don't need special mechanics on how to "create" every kind of ghost, necromancers can already just summon them. Ghost writeups should definitely have some cool lore about how they happen or where they come from, but Exalted lore rarely benefits from like... this urge to exhaustively explain magical interactions until they're 100% understood and exploitable. Leave some mystery in the world.
 
Gazetteer said:
Given that one of the most consistent and pervasive criticisms of how 2e handled necromancy is that it leaned way too far into "evil is the default", why is it even desirable to go out of our way to make it more the case now? Necromancy lends itself to morally dubious circumstances and abilities without trying to enforce "this should always be immoral" on top of it.

You don't need special mechanics on how to "create" every kind of ghost, necromancers can already just summon them. Ghost writeups should definitely have some cool lore about how they happen or where they come from, but Exalted lore rarely benefits from like... this urge to exhaustively explain magical interactions until they're 100% understood and exploitable. Leave some mystery in the world.
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Yeah, so I just disagree basically all of this, so I don't think we're gonna have a productive conversation. I do think necromancy should have evil by default, I think necromancy is more fun when you have to work to use it for good.

I also prefer when the magical interactions are understood and explained.

EDIT: it to I
 
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Sort of perpendicular to the current discussion, I think that necromancy spells could benefit greatly from having a clearer thematic framework to hang on like sorcery spells do, instead of just being spooky scary skeletons all the way down. It would seem especially appropriate now that Liminals have been introduced, and their Aspects could be used as Underworld "elements."

For example, when you cast a spell with Sorcery, you're shaping Air/Earth/Fire/Water/Wood Essence to create so sort of effect, even it doesn't overtly manipulate the element itself; with Necromancy, when you want to animate a corpse or something, instead doing it via the power of spooky scary skeletons, you could animate it through filling it with Flesh Essence or something.
 
ichypa said:
Sort of perpendicular to the current discussion, I think that necromancy spells could benefit greatly from having a clearer thematic framework to hang on like sorcery spells do, instead of just being spooky scary skeletons all the way down. It would seem especially appropriate now that Liminals have been introduced, and their Aspects could be used as Underworld "elements."

For example, when you cast a spell with Sorcery, you're shaping Air/Earth/Fire/Water/Wood Essence to create so sort of effect, even it doesn't overtly manipulate the element itself; with Necromancy, when you want to animate a corpse or something, instead doing it via the power of spooky scary skeletons, you could animate it through filling it with Flesh Essence or something.
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The way I settled on framing it in the last game I ran (just as a passing mention; Necromancy wasn't one of the big themes of that story) was that since the core book goes to the lengths it does to explain sorcery as manipulating the essence of the larger world around the sorcerer, then Necromancy is where techniques that manipulate a creature's interior energy go. Running with that idea, in the Discord homebrew channel a while back, there was a sorcery healing spell brewed up that let the recipient ignore wound penalties because their pain has literally been removed from the body and placed into a little spirit bubble that they have to protect for a day's duration, the completion of which cashes in the spell's healing effect. I tweaked the flavor of that spell to more explicitly be 'the necromancer has carved the pain out of your soul', and gave it to one of the NPCs my players were running with.

It even seems to line up with that one Necromancy ritual from Essence where you carve out a bit of your own soul and make it into soulsteel as a focus.
 
Gazetteer said:
As for societies living in shadowlands having higher numbers, I really don't see any compelling reason why the ghosts coming out of such a culture would need to be any more or less fucked up than ghosts that came about through other means.
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Ah, I should have clarified further - I was talking about how someone who becomes a ghost purely due to necrotic Essence contamination "shouldn't" be exempt from the general horror coding of the Dead, even if they died peacefully of old age rather than having their heart burst from the strain of holding up a collapsing roof so their comrades could escape the enemy's ambush. Hence my proposal that in the absence of a conventional ghostly fixation, either an existing Intimacy would be amplified into a proper Passion or they'd experience some degree of mental... strangeification. Ghost Grandpa is more-or-less still himself, but he's forgotten most of the rules about what a living person can and can't do, which makes for a lot of awkward conversations when you have to remind him that you can't stay up for a month straight to finish this book he's helping you write - as opposed to a more 'conventional' ghostly derangement, where a tailor obsessed with perfecting his art might leave behind a ghost that doesn't really get anymore that people have a purpose beyond allowing for fine clothing to be displayed to greatest effect, and will accost shabbily-dressed people and try to undo this crime against fashion whether that means they have to bully that person into disrobing or strangle them with a tape measure.

It's mostly to help ward off people doing easy, no-guilt mass conversion of populations into ghosts on the grounds that it will free them from hunger, thirst, and disease, and to help guide expectations on the Dead in general for players and STs.


Gazetteer said:
Not all ghostly or Underworld essence is "Neverborn Essence", and it's more interesting to me to treat that as more of a case by case thing.
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This is definitely a matter of Your Creation May Vary, but my model is that Labyrinthine Essence = necrotic Essence = Deathly Essence, because the Underworld is the source of the Dead, and the source of the Underworld is the Neverborn. There is, however, a hell of a lot of difference between how that Essence is behaving within a hekatonkheire as compared to a minor ctonian invertebrate, a Nago-style Dead god, a shaman who had themself entombed alive so their spirit could protect their peoples' lands from invaders, or a drowned fisherman who crawls along the shore at night calling out for his son.

Still far more of a case-by-case thing than some sort of hegemonic determinant, but the cosmological elements map out a little better to me if I take the various tragedies and curses of Death as being born from the Dead having imbibed, however little and in however attenuated a form, a portion of the tragedy and curse of the Neverborn. Betrayals, painful deaths, and disrespect to mortal remains produce unquiet ghosts *because* those acts symbolically resonate with what was done to the Neverborn.

Which is also why there's an inherent amount of mystery and uncertainty involved with Deathly things, because the Essence of the Neverborn is fundamentally broken and inchoate. Sometimes you kill a priest and nothing happens. Sometimes you kill a priest and goddamn Melquiades comes at you out of the darkness a few years later:

 
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QAF Charm!

Stepping Beyond Morality
Cost: 15m; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Desecration, Sorcerous
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: -

True students of Qaf know that all attachments are but distractions, they must shed such beliefs like a snake sheds its skin if they are ever to truly ascend.

When activating this Charm the infernal chooses a single intimacy rated 4+ that the target possesses.

This intimacy becomes Obvious to the target, as does the effect of this charm.

At anytime after this charm's activation, the target may choose to spend 1 WP to lose the chosen intimacy. Should they do so, they shed both the intimacy and their own morality as they become a single 1CD. It is Obvious that this transformation is a fundamental change equivalent to death that will transform them into a new order of being.

Should the chosen Intimacy ever drop below 4, the target loses the benefit of this charm.

By learning this Charm the warlock gains a demon species, and may purchase additional ones for 1xp each.
 
@Red Orion , I think that the duration should be Indefinite, not Permanent, or maybe 'Until chosen Intimacy is lost'.

This might work better by using the Ebon Dragon Transformation charm as a base, so that the target is transformed for a year and a day, and if they choose to completely erode an Intimacy rated 4 or higher, the transformation becomes permanent.
 
Indivisible said:
@Red Orion , I think that the duration should be Indefinite, not Permanent, or maybe 'Until chosen Intimacy is lost'.

This might work better by using the Ebon Dragon Transformation charm as a base, so that the target is transformed for a year and a day, and if they choose to completely erode an Intimacy rated 4 or higher, the transformation becomes permanent.
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Hm... So in the one hand I really want them to have to give up the charm first, because this is meant to emulate things like Sasuke leaving the village or Aang choosing to let go of Katara.

The idea here is activating that charm is a permanent effect because what it's giving is "the ability to instantly lose an intimacy and become a demon" and once the ability is granted it's there. If I have indefinite there, I'm worried that people would read the motes as commuted until the transformation happens

EDIT:
On further thought I would change the header to this:

First Steps Along the Path

Cost: 15; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Desecration, Sorcerous, Servitude, Training
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisites: -

This would be the start of the training charm tree, and it would involve characters refunding backgrounds for XP, and then being able to spend as much of that XP (and any built-up XP) as they want for MA, Resitance, Endurance, Integrity, Surival, Stamina or Mutations in a Qafian Theme. Awakened Ess always counts.

Losing a background requires a symbolic act. A politician might smear herself in filth and run naked across the city to lose Influence (Politics), and a rich man may sign over all his wealth to the Infernal to remove Resources. That sort of thing.

The target would gain a Commitment to not regaining these backgrounds which costs (Infernal's Ess) WP to resist for a scene. After doing it for (Infenral's Ess) Scenes the commitment would go away.

Then there would be upgrades:
1. Allow you to learn MA charms with this XP
2. Trade Intimacies 4+ to become demon.
 
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Red Orion said:
Hm... So in the one hand I really want them to have to give up the charm first, because this is meant to emulate things like Sasuke leaving the village or Aang choosing to let go of Katara.

The idea here is activating that charm is a permanent effect because what it's giving is "the ability to instantly lose an intimacy and become a demon" and once the ability is granted it's there. If I have indefinite there, I'm worried that people would read the motes as commuted until the transformation happens

EDIT:
On further thought I would change the header to this:

First Steps Along the Path

Cost: 15; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Desecration, Sorcerous, Servitude, Training
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisites: -

This would be the start of the training charm tree, and it would involve characters refunding backgrounds for XP, and then being able to spend as much of that XP (and any built-up XP) as they want for MA, Resitance, Endurance, Integrity, Surival, Stamina or Mutations in a Qafian Theme. Awakened Ess always counts.

Losing a background requires a symbolic act. A politician might smear herself in filth and run naked across the city to lose Influence (Politics), and a rich man may sign over all his wealth to the Infernal to remove Resources. That sort of thing.

The target would gain a Commitment to not regaining these backgrounds which costs (Infernal's Ess) WP to resist for a scene. After doing it for (Infenral's Ess) Scenes the commitment would go away.

Then there would be upgrades:
1. Allow you to learn MA charms with this XP
2. Trade Intimacies 4+ to become demon.
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Maybe the commitments could be something like Intolerable Burning Truth gained as a mutation when they transform? There's precedent with Transcendent Desert Creature.
 
Indivisible said:
Maybe the commitments could be something like Intolerable Burning Truth gained as a mutation when they transform? There's precedent with Transcendent Desert Creature.
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Ooh, I like this! Now I just need to think on what sort of things that would entail

EDIT: Realized I'm trying to make one charm do too many things. Still thinking about an Intolerbale Burning Truths Equivalent, but here's an initial rework. Still working on the final workding on some of this:

Training Charms

FIRST STEPS ALONG THE PATH
  • Infernal sets some sort of task for the target to perform.
  • If the student performs the task, they gain a dot in End, Survival, MA, or Int, a dot in Sta or Cha, or a Speciality or mutation in line with the themes of Qaf. Abilities and Attributes may not be raised above four dots. This option may not be taken by characters who are currently in XP debt.
  • Traits gained in the course of this charm happen naturally as a byproduct of the tasks they have been given. Cleaning a temple may teach a disciple how to defend themselves, whereas giving up their wealth may teach them to survive without the comforts of society.
  • Need a social aspect. Some sort of intimacy to tie into it.
UPGRADE I
  • Charm can be used to grant MA charms the target is eligible for. Maybe let it unlock martial arts? Need to read up on those rules a bit more.

Social Charms

Loss of attachments charm
  • Infernal makes a social attack
  • If it succeeds, they may remove a single Selfish Intimacy or a Background.
  • Players are refunded the XP for backgrounds lost in this way.
    • If the infernal knows First Steps Along the Path, they may combo that charm with this one, and the refunded XP can be instantly spent on any trait that charm can grant.
  • Target gains an intimacy "Holding me Back" to the sacrificed trait. The character must spend WP equal to the rating of the lost trait before they can erode this intimacy.
 
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So here they are! Pretty happy with them, and I think a good base for what I am imaginging Qaf to be. Shoutout to EarthScorpion who gave some great advice over on Discord.

First Steps Along the Path

Cost: 15; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Servitude, Training
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisites: -
Many demons make the pilgrimage to Qaf, hoping to benefit from his instruction. He gives them nothing. Still, some lucky few are able to divine lessons from his meaningless actions, and so uplift themselves.

When activating this charm, the Infernal makes a request of the target. This request can be anything from cleaning a stable to killing the Unconquered Sun. At the completion of this task, the target gains a single dot in Endurance, Survival, Martial Arts, Integrity, Stamina or Charisma, or a single Speciality or Mutation in line with Qaf's themes. Abilities and Attributes cannot be raised above four dots by this charm. Characters in XP debt cannot benefit from this charm.

Traits given by this charm develop naturally over the course of the task's completion, though the target need not be aware of their training. A target tasked with cleaning a temple compound may not realize until his job is done that each sweep of the broom was teaching him a block, and that carrying buckets of water up the steps strengthened his leg muscles. It is only once the task is completed and he looks at the results of his work that the lesson is learned, the knowledge of this gift coalescing in a burst of sudden insight.

This charm can be repurchased at Essence 4. This repurchase lets targets learn martial arts charms they are eligible for and explicitly includes charms needed to initiate into martial arts such as Pasiap's Humility and Moment of Daana'd

The Mountain in Your Heart

Cost: 10m, 1wp; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Simple (Speed 5 in long ticks)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Illusion, Social
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: -
Qaf alone of the Yozi is content, because Qaf alone of them is alone. He has shed the weakness of connections, and made of himself a mountain.

The Infernal makes a presence based social attack which extols the target to abandon a single intimacy or background, as represented through a symbolic rejection of the targeted trait. A rich man may be asked to donate all his money to the Infernal's cult to reject his wealth (Resources), while a mother may be asked to abandon her child at the local orphanage (Intimacy: Love for my Child).

Should the roll beat the target's MDV, and should the target not spend 1 WP to resist, the selected trait is removed and the target falls under an Illusion convincing them that the removed trait was holding them back. The target will not willingly examine this belief of their own volition. This illusion can be resisted for a scene by spending 1WP, and can be removed completely if the target spends WP equal to the dot rating of the lost trait.

The target is refunded the XP for any backgrounds lost due to this charm. If the Infernal knows First Steps Along the Path and it's upgrades, they may use that charm in conjunction with this charm to allow the target to spend the refunded XP to instantly learn traits granted by that charm.
 
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A valid use of the above charm "First Steps Along the Path" would be to give a target the task of killing the Unconquered Sun in return for 1 dot in Survival. This would be pretty pointless as there is nothing forcing the target to actually try to fulfill the given task.
 
Which admittedly working as intended. Combined with the second Charm, the First Step Along the Path can offer significant increases in ability (Sasuke can turn his back on Clan and Village for a significant increase in personal power). So the Infernal can choose to gate these increases behind equally potent tasks.

But they can also promise you that power and then just only give you one dot of survival. You are meant to be as much a religious conman as a real one.
 
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Red Orion said:
The Mountain in Your Heart
Cost: 10m, 1wp; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Simple (Speed 5 in long ticks)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Illusion, Social
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: -
Qaf alone of the Yozi is content, because Qaf alone of the is alone. He has shed the weakness of connections, and made of himself a mountain.

The Infernal makes a presence based social attack which extols the target to abandon a single intimacy or background, as represented through a symbolic rejection of the targeted trait. A rich man may be asked to donate all his money to the Infernal's cult to reject his wealth (Resources), while a mother may be asked to abandon her child at the local orphanage (Intimacy: Love for my Child).

Should the roll beat the target's MDV, the selected trait is removed and the target falls under an Illusion convincing them that the removed trait was holding them back. The target will not willingly examine this belief of their own volition. This illusion can be resisted for a scene by spending 1WP, and can be removed completely if the target spends WP equal to the dot rating of the lost trait.

The target is refunded the XP for any backgrounds lost due to this charm. If the Infernal knows First Steps Along the Path and it's upgrades, they may use that charm in conjunction with this charm to allow the target to spend the refunded XP to instantly learn traits granted by that charm.
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Spending WP to resist should definitely let you, well, resist. Keep your intimacy and your money / kid / whatever.

Also, you're missing a word in the first sentence. Alone of the what?
 
You could expand on the "First Step" with a "Second Step" that gives more substantial or supernatural benefits in exchange for the target accomplishing greater tasks. I believe that this would match the scaling in similar Solar and Infernal training charms.

The inclusion of a basic scaling system of increasing difficulty providing increasing benefits would also make the charm more balanced. As written there is nothing preventing the Infernal from simply giving a target an incredibly basic task (EX: clap your hands) so that they can instantly improve their capabilities. This seems to contradict the overall themes of Qaf and the more meta-themes where training charms have a cost in terms of devoted time, sacrificed capabilities, mutations, or favors.
 
Today in Exalted Modern, a Lunar drove a Solar to a radio station so she could deliver an inspiring speech to a warring state.

In a flying armoured personnel carrier.

No, it isn't supposed to fly, which really confused the squad inside.

While the speech was made, the Lunar and the soldier fought off aliens.

Then we flew back, with the Solar's anima banner on full display - in the middle of the night.

So the flying armoured personnel carrier was surrounded by a giant golden phoenix.

The "no shit, there I was!" war stories will be legendary.
 
Sanctaphrax said:
Spending WP to resist should definitely let you, well, resist. Keep your intimacy and your money / kid / whatever.

Also, you're missing a word in the first sentence. Alone of the what?
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Should be The Yozi.

Also, can't you always use WP to resist social influence? I thought I remembered that being something inherent to social influence but I might be misremembering.
Ct613hulu said:
You could expand on the "First Step" with a "Second Step" that gives more substantial or supernatural benefits in exchange for the target accomplishing greater tasks. I believe that this would match the scaling in similar Solar and Infernal training charms.

The inclusion of a basic scaling system of increasing difficulty providing increasing benefits would also make the charm more balanced. As written there is nothing preventing the Infernal from simply giving a target an incredibly basic task (EX: clap your hands) so that they can instantly improve their capabilities. This seems to contradict the overall themes of Qaf and the more meta-themes where training charms have a cost in terms of devoted time, sacrificed capabilities, mutations, or favors.
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When I first made this charm, I actually did envision multiple steps with multiple levels of difficulty, but it was too difficult to determine what challenge equaled what level of upgrades and I couldn't think of a version that wasn't cheesable. In the end, I made the second charm which does mostly the same thing. Sacrificing "My Merchant Empire (Resources 5)" or "My Status as the Heir of the Uchiha (Backing 5, Influence 5, Followers 5)" is always going to be a difficult task, and return commiserate rewards (since you get to use the refunded XP). That said, I am willing to hear ideas on how the previous idea could work, I just couldn't do it myself.

As for the second part, that's deliberate. Verdant Emptiness Endowment can be used the same way after all (you can have your favor be "please clap for me") after all, provides the benefits immediately, and can raise any trait whereas this can only do a select few. Of course, neither are really balanced around that. Instead, the optimal way to use both is to extort people for your own gain, and so the charms are balanced on the assumption you are doing that. If a player uses this charm to give people upgrades for free, then they are underperforming, since they can instead use the charm to make people go on quests or give all their money to the cult or whatever.
 
Red Orion said:
Also, can't you always use WP to resist social influence? I thought I remembered that being something inherent to social influence but I might be misremembering.
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Social influence Charms generally spell out how resisting them with wp works, and the way this Charm explains itself implies that the most important bit is irresistible. I guess that was an unintentional implication, but it wants fixing regardless.
 
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