Jon Chung
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Which edition?
General Exalted Thread
Which edition?
I'llNameThisL8r
Bad at names
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To start with this bit, I would say that combat isn't the be all end all; yes, having an anti-gank combo is nice but honestly an eclipse that just does socalize, linguistics, bureaucracy, and not much else is a valid way to play the game, provided that's the game you're prepared to run and the group is interested in.
Like, DND assumes that Bards will get into sword fights in the natural process of being Bards; Exalted assumes that not everyone will get in a fight once every session.You don't need to bring DnD's assumptions with you.
(If you want an example of this, I would point you at Shyft and Aleph's [it might be mugen ra, it's been awhile] Sunlit Sands, where the first couple sessions are mostly demon-enhanced commerce, negotiations about said commerce, and politics.)
Granted, if you've spoken with him and the table and made them aware that combat will be happening with some regularity, that's an entirely different story.
Beyond that, there's probably more edition-relevant advice that other people can give you.
(Also, someone will probably say to run something more user friendly with Exalted's setting and fluff on top of it. I'm taken to agreeing with them in a lot of cases on this, but ultimately I'm not a cop, do what makes you happy.)
The first and most important question is which edition you're running. The thread will need to know that to be able to give you proper advice.
As a very general idea, you could plausibly softball it with the ex noble by having the bad guys in the first fight try to take him alive for use as a hostage. That way there's less risk of an accidental first session kill.
As a supplement to the 'what edition' chorus, I'm going to strongly recommend you play third edition if you're not already. Second edition does have its good points, but you need a lot of familiarity with it for the best results (being generous, frankly). Warnings like this one:
Are mostly necessary for second edition. For third edition, an excellency plus one defensive charm is enough to keep mundane opposition and unled battlegroups off his back while the rest of the group fights, which should enough for the first few sessions. Anything with strong combat magic of its own is going to put him into serious trouble, still, but with two other stronger combatants, you should often be able to maneuver encounters such that the 'main' threats are fighting the rest of the party, and the noble can focus on defending himself if he's determined not to invest in combat further.
- Location
- Library
I have more of wargamers/board game geeks type group that care about dice.
Obviously, it is possible to have failure and tension outside the combat, it's why I always make sure that the players have challenges (strategic, long term) not dictated by combat alone.
My take on that playstyle: I was in one group of DM that was honestly far better that run pure storytelling games, so if I would go full game-as-novel I would drop dice altogether. But I assume it's rare to find DM that can create great interactive story with words alone.
Manic Dogma
This, I can't deny.
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- The far side of tired
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Not as rare as you'd think? Obviously ones who can make such a thing actively Novel quality are vanishingly rare, but just being involved can paper over a lot of cracks that would be unacceptable in a story you're reading rather than actively contributing to.
Though I am a writer who tends to play with a lot of other writers, so I guess my perspective might be a tad skewed.
Though I am a writer who tends to play with a lot of other writers, so I guess my perspective might be a tad skewed.
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- Library
Not as rare as you'd think? Obviously ones who can make such a thing actively Novel quality are vanishingly rare, but just being involved can paper over a lot of cracks that would be unacceptable in a story you're reading rather than actively contributing to.
Though I am a writer who tends to play with a lot of other writers, so I guess my perspective might be a tad skewed.
That might be it
I was in pure storytelling game in Planescape setting and it's probably best game I was in (we were all fans of Planescape: Torment).The second thing, novel quality varies greatly and there is lots of D&D-ties books in that read like simple quests... I can recall Keith Baker's City of Towers, for example, through I read it like a decade ago, and it was good quest that literally start with visits to quest-giver(s) and bargianing for price for completing quest.
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They played it really safe with the Lookshy lore.
I guess that makes sense because they have always been pitched as potential player characters and having them no longer willing to work with Anathema is a considerable shake up from 2e. However, I've never seen evidence that Lookshyan Dragon-Blooded were a popular option for PCs.
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- Oregon, USA
I did some research and decided to get third.
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- Ottawa
3e is relatively kind to noncombatants; you should have an easy time not killing your weak PC. That said, he'll have an better time in fight scenes if he at least has a decent Dexterity + combat skill dice pool, so I recommend making sure he does.
Overall, the system is fairly sound. Bureaucracy, Craft, and Sail are the main issues; do any of your PCs use those skills?
Player characters in Exalted usually have a lot more agency than player characters in D&D. You should expect them to derail everything you have planned.
Overall, the system is fairly sound. Bureaucracy, Craft, and Sail are the main issues; do any of your PCs use those skills?
Player characters in Exalted usually have a lot more agency than player characters in D&D. You should expect them to derail everything you have planned.
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It's worth noting (since I've seen this skip past some people) Ex3 being kinder to non-combatants largely depends on the number of combatants on their side.
The main thing third edition provides over previous editions is actions for your antagonists to undertake that have no risk of killing their target, but also aren't obviously wasted actions intended to simply let your player win. However, if it's a 1:1 fight (or close to it) and nobody's coming to save them you're only dragging out the inevitable.
I hesitate to call it a weakness, but if you were using Ex3 to run a solo game you might find it way less forgiving than it's supposed to be.
The main thing third edition provides over previous editions is actions for your antagonists to undertake that have no risk of killing their target, but also aren't obviously wasted actions intended to simply let your player win. However, if it's a 1:1 fight (or close to it) and nobody's coming to save them you're only dragging out the inevitable.
I hesitate to call it a weakness, but if you were using Ex3 to run a solo game you might find it way less forgiving than it's supposed to be.
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- Ottawa
True.
In a fight against four Solars, you probably can't afford to spend all your Initiative on a decisive attack against the Eclipse. If you do, the Dawn is likely to kill you. But in a duel, that's not an issue.
Oh, and speaking of protecting vulnerable party members, War Lion Stance is really good.
In a fight against four Solars, you probably can't afford to spend all your Initiative on a decisive attack against the Eclipse. If you do, the Dawn is likely to kill you. But in a duel, that's not an issue.
Oh, and speaking of protecting vulnerable party members, War Lion Stance is really good.
- Location
- Oregon, USA
All of my players have minor investments in craft, but it's more of 'baking' and 'fletching' than anything complicated. My brother has one dot in architecture though. The baking is more of a commitment, but the player just wants it as a character thing, since she would've had to travel a lot and pick up jobs here and there. My brother also decided to get some Bureaucracy charms, but mostly just the read intentions ones.
I'll keep that in mind, thanks!
My mom took Crane charms, and one of those lets her reflexively Defend Other, so I think that'll serve that purpose.
Also, my brother just did bonus points, and he decided to get a retainer in the form of a combat butler. I have no idea how to design him/her in a way that is balanced and fair. The retainer merit provides a rough guideline, but as I have no experience playing exalted, I have no idea of the comparative power levels it talks about. He put four dots in it. I'd be grateful for any advice you could give me!
So, I'm not sure which books you have, but with just what's in the core, a four-dot retainer is said to be 'at least as powerful as a young terrestrial exalt' and fortunately for you, there's a stat block in the Antagonists section that is literally "Young Dynast" on page 541. If you don't want it to be literally another exalt, you can refluff that stat block to be some other kind of supernatural creature with minor changes, but in general a crucial way to save yourself headaches as a GM is to find an NPC stat block that's 'close enough' and make tweaks from there.
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- Oregon, USA
I took your advice, and reworked the stat block to become an Exigent swordsman (my brother wanted the retainer to have Single Point Shining Into The Void Style) who received her power from an artifact sword. Not entirely sure how that'll work, but I guess we'll see? However, when shuffling around stats, I hit a snag; Normally, swords are Melee weapons, but she's using this one as a style weapon. Does that mean she uses martial arts instead? Which one applies to parry? I couldn't find any rule that says you use martial arts when using a style weapon, but if you don't that would be kind of weird. Does anyone know which ability to use?
EDIT: Just saw there's a different thread for basic questions. Help on figuring out how to design an artifact weapon that is also a means of Exigence would be nice though, as I don't think the other thread would cover that.
EDIT: Just saw there's a different thread for basic questions. Help on figuring out how to design an artifact weapon that is also a means of Exigence would be nice though, as I don't think the other thread would cover that.
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I'llNameThisL8r
Bad at names
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The language of DB brawl/MA excellency implies that Martial Arts is used for PDV, also single point has charms based on parrying attacks and if MA couldn't give a defense value like, a third of the style would make no sense.
Pg. 194 of the core book says:
Martial Arts is specifically called out there, so it's fine. Your exigent can parry all he likes.
Shouldn't be a problem, exigents are allowed to be weird. Most exigent exaltations die with their bearers, but some are passed down in various ways, and "whoso pulleth this sword of this stone and anvil is rightwise inheritor of the Sword Good Exaltation" sounds legit enough.
Eldagusto
Voivode of Neterkhertet
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- The Bleak Shores of Never in the Land of Naught
So does anyone not use Quick Character attack pools as is? I mean do you modify them somewhat, like they often have jab attacks low attack dice and then major attacks higher attack dice, it creates some dissonance when PC jabs work differently then enemy jabs? QC's are nice in a lot of ways but sometimes little bits of emersion are eroded for the sake of tossed together quick pools. I mean I think it probably works better in with say Trinity Quick characters to have low definition simple pools, and same with World of Darkness NPCs, but Exalted feels odd because so much attention is dedicated to the combat system.
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The immediate problem with doing that across the board is that it weakens mortals, animals and lesser supernaturals to the point where most PCs can fend them off with 100% confidence that the only thing they'll lose is iniatiative which is already a non-transferable resource.
Not employing the QC rules for major opponents such as other Exalts is the path of least resistance.
Not employing the QC rules for major opponents such as other Exalts is the path of least resistance.
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That's what I thought. My difficulty is designing a Exaltation and Artifact that are both designed for each other, without varying too much from the Young Dynast stat block, as I wouldn't be able to tell if they're around the same power level if they're too different. Currently I just swapped out the combat charms for martial arts ones, and swapped out the socials for other modded socials. One of them's just Night over Day, but Resolve instead of Guile, and the other's a thing that lets her sub martial arts for presence when intimidating, and also get some bonuses, but only against people who are aware/combative enough to tell that she's not someone to be messed with/have seen her fight. The second one I'm not too happy about, but it works... The real dilemma I'm having is figuring out the evocations of the sword, which I could use some help with. To be clear, this is primarily biased toward Single Point Shining Into The Void Style, but can touch in others if needed. So any ideas on evocations for a magic sword that grants Exigence?
I find it's often helpful to start with "what's the story behind this artifact". "Grants exigence" doesn't give you a lot of mechanical or thematic hooks (there are some, but probably not enough for an Artifact N/A), so try widening your focus. What kind of exaltation is it, aside from sword-related? Who was the god who made it, and why? Is he still around? That's all up to you, but once you decide, you'll have a lot more to work with when designing the guy's charms and evocations.
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What do you mean?
If I understand correctly, Jon takes issue with 3e's Exigents and the use of Evocations to represent artifact powers, in part because their build-your-own nature puts the onus on an individual player/ST to write a lot of Charms in order to be playable. This can be a tricky process for someone new to Exalted - as you're discovering! - because you're trying to learn the system, learn what is and isn't thematically appropriate, and write material that is not too weak or powerful.
That said, I think what you're encountering right now is less due to the whole concept being flawed (which is not a take I would agree with - and I should clarify, not necessarily what Jon thinks either) and more because the Exigents book isn't out yet. It's a hell of a lot easier to handle artifacts right now - virtually every new book has had some examples, and there's a whole book full of them. That gives you a lot of potential places to start - example gimmicks, Evocations you can compare yours to for assessing power, charms you could just borrow wholesale and reskin / retheme to fit what you're looking for, etc.
The ideal state of affairs for Exigents is that if you're interested in having one play a major role in your campaign, you'd look at the Exigents book, see what they have on offer, and then decide either a) one of the published Exigents works for you (maybe with some tweaks), or b) you feel capable enough to use those examples, along with the guidelines for creating your own, to make something else. Without either of those things, it's a pretty tall order, as you're discovering.
What I would recommend doing if you haven't, since this is an artifact linked to an Exigent, is thinking about it in terms of the god responsible. Really nail down the specifics - more than just the thousand-foot view, as best you can. "A volcano god" gives you a lot less to work with than "the Western god of Volcanoes and Fireworks, who's feuding with the directional god of Sharks." Having some idea of what the personality, purviews, themes, and goals of that god are will go a long way toward what kind of powers an artifact blade tied to them would be able to grant.
It's also perfectly legitimate to say that the sword served as a vessel for the Exigence, but has its own themes. That suggests something vaguely tied to the god in question, but that stretches thematically in a new direction (which is nice in its own right, because that gives your Exigent a way to develop new capabilities if need be). This also frees you up from trying to write Evocations that hook into the Exigent's charms directly.
Finally, since this is a PC's retainer, and isn't meant to outshine the PC themselves, keeping things at the less-detailed level of QC charms is a perfectly sensible move. Unless and until they start taking on a greater role in the plot, it's perfectly fine to give them one or two 'functional' powers that let them perform well or have a little trick in the areas they're supposed to, and one or two 'flavorful' powers that sell people on the concept that they're an Exigent of So-and-So.