Man I keep wanting to comment on stuff but I remember your talking about 2E. Y'all are masochists for still trying to play that edition.
 
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Man I keep wanting to comment on stuff but I remember your talking about 2E. Y'all are masochists for still trying to play that edition.
My most recent game was actually a 3rd ed game which I ran two years ago. I wanted to see how the system actually felt in play.

If I were to run Exalted again, I'd either write a hack of Warhammer Fantasy 3e, Genesys, Sufficiently Advanced, or Mutants and Masterminds.

Alternatively, a few friends and I did do a full system rewrite of 2.5 back when we had unlimited time(were in college) that involved a few fixes that other people here suggested, along with many of our own. I could take that out again, but it probably wouldn't get the feel I want for running Exalted like one of those other systems.
 
My most recent game was actually a 3rd ed game which I ran two years ago. I wanted to see how the system actually felt in play.

If I were to run Exalted again, I'd either write a hack of Warhammer Fantasy 3e, Genesys, Sufficiently Advanced, or Mutants and Masterminds.

Alternatively, a few friends and I did do a full system rewrite of 2.5 back when we had unlimited time(were in college) that involved a few fixes that other people here suggested, along with many of our own. I could take that out again, but it probably wouldn't get the feel I want for running Exalted like one of those other systems.
I've ran six games in 3e (13 if counting oneshots). I like the system well enough, beyond some small issues like sail. It's by far the best in play with Dragon Blood and Lunars. And I've introduced like 20+ people to it in the last year and it went well.

I've tried to run 2.5 and play in it years ago. It felt like shit 🤷‍♂️. Not trying to get into a edition war argument. Just stating my experiences.
 
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I've ran six games in 3e (13 if counting oneshots). I like the system well enough, beyond some small issues like sail. It's by far the best in play with Dragon Blood and Lunars. And I've introduced like 20+ people to it in the last year and it went well.

I've tried to run 2.5 and play in it years ago. It felt like shit 🤷‍♂️. Not trying to get into a edition war argument. Just stating my experiences.
3e is definitely a much easier introduction for people than 2e in my experience as well.

I really like the combat system, how artifacts are handled(once I did a simple house rule), how mass combat works, and even how a lot of the social system functioned.

The sorcery system is great! I love sorcerers workings and have actively stolen this for other games.

My main issues with it are charm bloat and dice tricks.

Even at the end of the campaign, I could not remember what charms my players had outside of some that they used constantly. This was because, between all of them, they had over 100 charms, most of which just shifted their odds of success on a given roll a little bit and made the math hard or were only useful in specific circumstances.

All of my players also forgot their own charms, only to remember once the party spent half an hour trying to figure out what combination of things they could do would help and everyone looked through their full charm list. there was one exception to this, who was the person with the most experience at the table.

It was like running DnD for a party of casters, everyone was a cleric or wizard with a huge spell book. up to and including many roles involving trying to add up all of the various modifiers that people had on them.

What difficulty was supposed to be difficult was neigh impossible to figure out because each ability had different odds and expected odds of success on a given roll. I wound up just making up stats and effects for most enemies. This ran into the problem of not having keywords for non-obvious effects, so no one knew if a particular charm would work outside of GM fiat. "Does this count as poison, disease, or crippling? I only have resistance to poison."

I tended towards, let players use their cool stuff, but all sorts of things frustrated me.

An important note, I'm not running high level 3.5 or pathfinder again for similar reasons because they add work that I don't like doing to me as a GM.

Unlike Evocations, which I love and am happy to put in the effort to make for a player.
 
So I feel this is a good time to ask: What exactly do people even mean when they use the term dice trick. Not because I myself don't have my own definition, but because at times it feels like everyone has like five different definitions for what the term means whenever they use it.
 
So I feel this is a good time to ask: What exactly do people even mean when they use the term dice trick. Not because I myself don't have my own definition, but because at times it feels like everyone has like five different definitions for what the term means whenever they use it.
Things like "Reroll all 2s." and "Roll an extra die for every 9." and "On this class of opposed rolls, roll an extra die for every 1 your opponent rolled."
 
Things like "Reroll all 2s." and "Roll an extra die for every 9." and "On this class of opposed rolls, roll an extra die for every 1 your opponent rolled."
This.

My definition is, anything that affects figuring out how many successes you get on a dice roll: reroll N, convert X dice to successes, exploding dice, gain additional successes when Y happens, etc.

2e had, mostly, the third excellency and Sidereals here and they were very consistent.
 
Heirs to the Shogunate preview is awesome. Finally Rules for Exalted who are Godblooded. Sea of the Mind Rules, and awesome charms. As in the Beginning is back.
 
Okay, so my Essence 4 Solar game ended a while back due to the group splitting up, and as a result I kind of fell out of the game for a bit, and kept promising myself 'I'll catch up on the thread at some point', only to never get around to it because there was nothing really making me do it. Enter Social Distancing! In the last week I've started a new Solar game, and the Heirs preview is out, so I decided to just say 'screw it, I'll just read the last few pages and jump back in' and I find a fucking twilight zone where people are turning to 2e to play games and Jon Chung is explaining paranoia combat to people. Did all the Ex3 folks flee the thread?

This thread is so nostalgic.

What year is it?!

Heirs to the Shogunate preview is awesome. Finally Rules for Exalted who are Godblooded. Sea of the Mind Rules, and awesome charms. As in the Beginning is back.

A user by the handle of Lanaya has been talking up As in the Beginning on the Discord for months, and it manages to live up to the hype. I actually ended up with backer credit on two charms, because me and one other guy both requested a combo attack charm, so we both got a base charm + upgrade. Fitting, really. :V

Hundred-Devil Masquerade, an upgrade to Terrifying Forest-Devil Mask finally realizes an effect I'd been wanting for a long time: Items actually acquiring their own power by association to the Exalt, rather than always explicitly needing to be separately created. Mantle of Elemental Power is also pretty great for turning Elemental Bolts into a primary combat style. The solitary medicine charm is a fire-aspected tool for cauterizing wounds. Melee looks like a big stack of charms, and I've got errands to run today, but I'm super happy with what I've read so far!
 
My definition is, anything that affects figuring out how many successes you get on a dice roll: reroll N, convert X dice to successes, exploding dice, gain additional successes when Y happens, etc.
I like Exalted 3e more than Exalted 2e, but I would much prefer an Exalted 3.5e with most dice trick effects thrown out the window (a limited number as generically applicable Excellencies or as capstone effects would be fine) and with the total count of Attributes/Abilities/Backgrounds/Charms all cut by half or two-thirds.
 
Here's my comments on the best new charms:
-Archery that lets your arrows turn into ropes and another charm that lets you plant your weapon and have it grow into a siege engine
-a Brawl charm that lets you strike the ground and have LAVA ERUPT
-Craft charms that let you awaken Evocations in artifacts you've made as you gift them to Hearthmates or relatives
-Dodge has 'turn your anima viscous so arrows can't hit you', as well as an Earth charm that makes light cover - or upgrades existing light cover to heavy
-Integrity gives you a charm that lets you make Lunars Sworn Kin and lets them treat you as a Solar Mate and another that lets your Hearth combine their Intimacies to resist social influence
-Investigation has a special 'only for things from the Wyld' charm -Larceny lets you disguise your Aspect and deceive your Hearthmates
-Linguistics lets you be understood by any Dragonblood, no matter the language barrier, leave secret messages on flowers and steal people's voices to learn languages
-Lore has a 'concentrate your anima banner to unleash it later' trick, a 'boost my anima and decrease EBA cost' and a Lore 5 Essence 5 'you can't move or act for 5 hours, but after that activates massive elemental effects out to successes/2 miles
-Melee lets you absorb Essence or magical attacks into your weapon and some other nifty elemental powers
-Occult lets you make your own elementals, have them as familiars and boost 'elementally themed' sorcerous workings
-Resistance has you turn your elemental powers into armour
-Socialise has a charm that you activate by taking a bath
-Stealth has charms that seem to be inspired by early Naruto
-Survival lets you take mutations inspired by your familiars
-War lets you design combination attacks with attacks with allies and make lava erupt (they really seem to like that)
I get the feeling that they very much have taken some lessons from making Lunars.
 
Short answer is I'm more interested in internally consistent simulation than narrative arcs of rising and falling tension. Constructing something to be both logically and emotionally satisfying is difficult, to the point that many people seem to think they're inherently conflicting goals, and 3e devs seemingly went out of their way to serve one at the other's detriment.

Admittedly, 2e never fully delivered on what I was looking for, but it at least seemed to be laying foundations. Thaumaturgy and crafting systems seem like they can support stories like this: Charlatan I I'm the sort of person who hears rumors of a demonic cult infiltrating some community and thinks "Has anyone tried going after them with forensic accounting?" Jewel-encrusted sacrificial daggers, ceremonial robes and headdresses, incense, excavation and masonry for a blasphemous temple... it's all a big pile of materials and labor which has to come from somewhere, so chances are there's money changing hands at some point, even before bribes or other cover-up expenses.

Second edition mundane Craft rules are dead simple, someone could probably squeeze a usable summary onto the back of a business card, but they nonetheless manage to encode the idea that the Resources value of manufactured or otherwise processed items correlates with a sort of economic Trophic level - Wikipedia Rough-cut logs into smooth boards into fine cabinetry, ore into pig iron into steel into weapons or armor. Parallel structure for artifacts, though the range of possible sources for exotic components gives that "food web" more complex interdependencies... which is why it collapses worse when segments get cut off. Helltech and necrotech are both fleshed out enough that it might be possible to analyze them under Living systems - Wikipedia and calculate the exact logistical repercussions - shuttered factories, families left destitute, guilds threatened - of a lawgiver's outraged proscription against de-boning live sapient beings for industrial purposes.

Never collected the full set of tools I'd want to really use those numbers, all the mechanical support or even solid strategic advice for a higher-level Bureaucracy game, but Third... doesn't even seem to provide the full set of numbers. Where 2e asks "if one and a half master smiths can forge one and a half daiklaives in one and a half years, how many daiklaives can three master smiths forge in three years... with lower-quality ore and frequent distractions from a neomah saboteur?" but then fails to clearly quantify the penalties, trying to extrapolate 3e's personal-inspiration-based craft system into estimates of the routine productivity of larger, more generic groups is about as helpful as "how much wood could a woodchuck chuck."

In third edition, the Resources background seems to be presented from a primarily political perspective, described in terms of social positions like seniority and corruption rather than concrete goods and services, with a massive leap in value between the second and third dot (in an apparent effort to make it easier to distinguish oppressors and collaborators from the proletariat) rather than a steady logarithmic progression. I'm not saying there's no value to that, it just rubs me the wrong way.
 
2e plus the Scroll of Errata IS "2.5e." The ink monkeys created a lot of new content (not all of which I agree with) but they never changed core rules.

There's actually only one thing you really need to remember, as an ST, to keep paranoia combos from being necessary: make every single attack by every single NPC a called shot, usually -1 success to maim or otherwise limit injury, unless said NPC is 100% committed to the immediate ruthless murder of their target (think rabid animals or berserk rage limit break, not just rando bandits) and you're prepared for the consequences if they succeed. Even fanatical death cultists would usually prefer to capture folks alive and then sacrifice them under more controlled conditions, given the opportunity, so that's natural setup for a classic pulp adventure raid-the-temple-and-interrupt-the-ritual sequence.

That doesn't cover environmental hazards or other impersonal stuff, but problems which can reliably threaten an exalt also tend to be obvious certain death for any normal person: acid pits, avalanches, raging infernos, demonic windstorms with three-syllable names, etc. When you're bringing in some problem like that, unless it's part of a final-act boss fight and you really want TPK to be one of the plausible outcomes, make sure to include some straightforward method of escape or bypass for those who aren't immune - and be generous to anyone who wants to stunt in alternatives.

Be careful with this - many players won't find this state of affairs to be believable (for example, I wouldn't buy it), and you'll break verisimilitude faster than if you went for my Option C and blatantly retconned any unexpected player deaths if they happen on the fly.

I would not personally advise retconning events just because a PC died. Exalted is at least partly a game about epic tragedies, and the no-true-rez rule is there for a reason. Books of Sorcery 5 has mechanics for continuing as a ghost (though arcanoi, as written, are laughably inadequate - I'd recommend adapting general spirit charms, erring on the side of downgrades and thematically appropriate limitations, until a more systematic rewrite is available). For celestials there's the obvious option of playing as your shard's next incarnation, and DBs tend to have extended families who'll want to follow up somehow on retrieving personal effects, completing unfinished business, and/or delivering vengeance, as appropriate.

There's a difference between "the PC died because he made unwise choices and overextended, placing himself in harm's way where he got cut down on the battlefield" and "oops I didn't realize grappling was a fight-ending bad touch, uh, you're dead?". Option C is intended to solve the latter, not the former. In fact, all three options are.
 
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Where 2e asks "if one and a half master smiths can forge one and a half daiklaives in one and a half years, how many daiklaives can three master smiths forge in three years... with lower-quality ore and frequent distractions from a neomah saboteur?"...

You sure about that?

Because I'm pretty darn familiar with 2e and as far as I can tell it provides absolutely no support for this playstyle.
 
Be careful with this - many players won't find this state of affairs to be believable (for example, I wouldn't buy it), and you'll break verisimilitude faster than if you went for my Option C and blatantly retconned any unexpected player deaths if they happen on the fly.



There's a difference between "the PC died because he made unwise choices and overextended, placing himself in harm's way where he got cut down on the battlefield" and "oops I didn't realize grappling was a fight-ending bad touch, uh, you're dead?". Option C is intended to solve the latter, not the former. In fact, all three options are.
"Most people, most of the time, aren't seriously trying to kill each other, even when they're swinging around deadly weapons" is easy enough to explain as a genre convention, and adequately supported by real-world research into, for example, marksmanship. Y'know how many soldiers will put bullets through a paper silhouette just fine, then get all shaky and miss under identical or easier conditions when the target more closely resembles an actual living human? Well over half, to my understanding, at least until they've been through training calculated to overcome that aversion. Then again, I suppose environment and culture also play a role. I'm curious, where you grew up, which was considered a worse offense, in the sense of heavier legal penalties: killing a pedestrian while driving an automobile, or inflicting severe yet recoverable injuries under the same conditions?

Even if it would conflict with setting lore (which I'd dispute, though that's a whole other can of worms), most combatants pulling punches is at the very least adequately supported as a mechanical option, and doing so retains the possibility of "shit just got real" escalation when some bitter enemy finally does go all-out. Fudging a roll, retconning a scene, overriding decisions and dice entirely in favor of a preconceived outcome, doesn't really have a comparable 'undo' option. That sort of fudge is like cheeto dust, tainting everything else you touch thereafter, because it teaches the players that all the rest of the nominal system is just smoke and mirrors. Under such a precedent, the only person at the table whose opinion really matters is the one whose fudge-stained finger hovers over the invisible reset button.

Tangentially, any opinion on my houserules for grapples, an effort to disarm the 'mine' and create a subsystem worth engaging with rather than routing around it? I'll post the relevant section here for anyone who doesn't like google docs. Ideally I'd have someone deeply familiar with the larger ruleset but who doesn't know me personally test it out, identify and tear open whatever gaps or other flaws I'm blind to by virtue of having created it.
Grappling
A successful clinch attack just established contact- you've gotten a grip on someone. This does not deal any damage. If you're grabbing someone barehanded, there's little or no advantage to loads of threshold successes on the initial attack. If you're wrapping something around them, though (such as a whip, rope, chain garotte, etc) each threshold success on that entanglement counts as a "loop" that has to be removed before they can throw you off.

Threshold success on initiating a grapple with a called shot to the neck (and if you're using a garotte there's no penalty for that called shot) subtracts 30 seconds from how long the target can hold their breath. Panic, constricting blood flow to the brain rather than just blocking the windpipe, etc. If that puts "how long they can hold their breath" down to zero, suffocation-based bashing damage starts to kick in immediately, one die per action.

On their next action tick, participants have to decide whether they're going to cooperate (in which case, depending on context, it probably stops being a matter of Martial Arts skill and starts being either Ride or Performance) or fight you.

Assuming it turns into an actual wrestling match, both parties act simultaneously from that point on, until the clinch is broken. It is possible to focus entirely on the grapple, or perform a flurry, but in either case the first action has to be a speed 6 clinch. Whoever rolls more successes is considered to be controlling the clinch, and threshold success may be spent to impair your opponent's actions, to inflict damage, or to throw their opponent, ending the grapple (assuming participants are tied together in some manner). A grapple may also be ended (on any tick where the participants act) by mutual consent.

Anything two-handed or with the Reach tag can't be used while grappling without a stunt, but otherwise you can attack normally using subsequent actions in a flurry.

While involved in a grapple, your physical DVs are halved against anyone not involved, due to limited mobility. Various charms that allow you to defend normally while grappling instead negate this penalty. If you're holding somebody with one hand and trying to stab or punch or shoot a firewand or crossbow at them or whatnot with the other, their DVs are not halved against your attack.

While Controlling the Grapple
Each threshold success spent on impairment applies an internal penalty equal to your Strength to actions involving one body part, usually a limb, but applicable also to e.g. covering a sentry's mouth to stop them shouting a warning. This penalty only lasts until the next action.

Successes spent to hold on to someone's torso or center of mass apply the penalty to dodge DV and their next grapple attempt - this is how you establish an effective pin.

Successes spent to crush in a grapple are added to raw damage just like any other attack, so base damage factors in normally, along with any bonuses thereto. Clinches almost always have rate 1, so you can't apply damage to somebody multiple times on the same action.

Successes may also be spent to buy off loops. Even if you control the clinch, you cannot throw your opponent clear until this occurs.

Allies in a clinch can gang up to provide full teamwork, up to the limit of how many could attack in melee... unless the one they're trying to gang up on has some way to increase or bypass Rate and thereby grapple each of them separately.

When You Get Grappled
If whoever grabbed you isn't lightweight and/or cooperative enough to easily lift (e.g. mouse grabbing a human adult, human riding an elephant, warstrider hopping aboard a landscape-scale behemoth), your DVs get halved immediately.

On your next action tick, you find out whether they're fighting you or just holding on. If they're light enough for you to throw (e.g housecat grabbing a human adult, human riding a horse) and cooperative, no grapple is necessary, you can just carry them like a backpack. Might be taking a mobility penalty.

If they're fighting, that's when the opposed grapple checks happen. Need to declare flurries, too.
You sure about that?

Because I'm pretty darn familiar with 2e and as far as I can tell it provides absolutely no support for this playstyle.
Read the rest of that sentence you quoted, as far as the next comma, please. Second edition certainly provides inadequate support, but at least lays a few foundation-stones and acknowledges such analysis as a valid thing to attempt, The Codeless Code: Case 160 The Eye of the Beholder rather than dismissing it as impossible and absurd. The Codeless Code: Case 177 The Tool-Shed What I want is, in a sense, a specific hearthstone which doesn't yet seem to exist. The Codeless Code: Case 107 Babel By that metaphor, second edition, burning and festering in the center of a haunted battlefield, is the nearest demesne upon which some manse producing such a stone could plausibly be built. Third edition may already be set up as a fine manse, suitable for human habitation... but that manse's underlying aspect is incompatible with what I seek, and anyway the battlefield holds potentially useful scrap.

A lone, maddened exalt can build a level one manse in two centuries of grueling daily effort, given access to suitable materials. I have friends, and parts of the work have already been done, so perhaps I will be finished sooner.
 
Read the rest of that sentence you quoted, as far as the next comma, please.

I did. I went through your whole post several times, trying to figure out how it supported your claim. I don't think it does.

Second edition certainly provides inadequate support, but at least lays a few foundation-stones...

Pretty sure that's not so. Not everything about 2e is bad, but it really has nothing to offer a game focused on logistical details. It was never meant to be good for that kind of thing, so it's not.

Also, you've got some kind of weird issue with random links showing up in your posts.
 
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If a GM running a game about being a demigod tells me they threw a bunch of trash mobs at their demigod, trash just like the setting fiction suggested demigods roll over with ease and said demigod unexpectedly exploded into giblets because they didn't know how nonsensically deadly [insert_threat_here] is, that is not the GM's fault, it's the system's fault. The p-combo is anti-system insurance, with the advice to take it predicated on the assumption that the GM doesn't have perfect system knowledge and can't catch every "oh, that's actually super lethal oops" case the rules happen to spit out.

Dragonbloods are certainly mooks compared to celestial exalted- their perfect defense has two weaknesses, costs WP in every version of 2, and is expensive as hell. Also, they only get the one.

That being said, they're still elemental super-soldiers, and have been, in the Wyld Hunt, hunting down and killing Solars for generations. A newbie solar should certainly be in danger from them, and Exalted 2e's health level system is an attempt to simulate combat to some degree of realism beyond "HP drops."

When you are hit in combat, it hurts you in the long run, because you're less capable while physically harmed. When a person hits you in the face with a hammer, you die. Humans can be both frighteningly squishy and shockingly durable.

Exalts are humans turned up past 11, then 12, than 57. If you haven't bought extra health levels, than a starting exalt should definitely be one-shottable by an Artifact Grand Weapon wielded by another "weaker" exalt. That being said, combat prep and demons help. Or halp, sometimes, in the latter's case.


Exalts are humans except as specifically noted. The automatic benefits of exaltation are actually fairly minimal; it would absolutely be possible to build a starting exalt with Stamina 1, Resistance 0, then have them drink a large bottle of hard liquor and die later that same night of alcohol poisoning. Every exalt has the potential for world-shaking greatness, but not all achieve it. If you want to avoid dying like a chump, you need to avoid behaving like a chump. Know your limits, use appropriate tactics, plan and prepare and train instead of just reacting when some problem is already on top of you.

Even a single "random asshole with a pitchfork" can be a legitimate threat if they're trying to shove a sharp piece of metal through your eye while you lay there unconscious, when you haven't got step seven charmtech to shrug that off, or friends to intercept assassins before they reach your bedroom.

You want to be an army-scattering force of nature? That's certainly doable - per the morale rules, just flaring your anima or using some Obvious charms will scatter most mortal opposition. Reasonable investment in combat charms will let you stomp on almost anything... but you can't start out with every charm and spell and skill in the game. If you did, what would you spend XP on?

EXACTLY!
 
I've been slowly getting my entire outcast kinship commissioned. They are basically a series of npc's that the solar party has interacted with over the course of the campaign.
The dragon blood on the left is a ex-lookshyan dragon blood. She left the state for personal reasons. And now acts as a smuggler and master martial artists along the scavenger lands. The Water DB has been working with the party quite a lot over the course of the campaign. She is really fun to roleplay out.

Second is a Air dragon blood and a master Golden Janissary Stylist. Which she uses to help with her constant grave robbing and stealing. I took a ton of inspiration from Manus's write ups of lookshy. And their is a considerable number of civilizations that have strong reverence for their ancestors. And the players got to have a lot of cool moments interacting with those ancestors. She is meant to be on the complete and utter opposite end of the 'respect dead people' spectrum. And more on the 'Hippity Hoppity all your dead shit is now my property'. Haven't got to use her just yet, but believe me I can't wait. (The little bells on her are a cultural thing from her tribe).
 
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Dragonbloods are certainly mooks compared to celestial exalted- their perfect defense has two weaknesses, costs WP in every version of 2, and is expensive as hell. Also, they only get the one.
As of Ex3, this isn't true, in setting or in mechanics. Which is very, very good, since it kinda... sucks, honestly? No Exalts should ever feel lame, especially in comparison to another class. I don't see why in 2020 this is a thing that should keep popping up in the fandom.
 
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