When a player type is explicitly spelled out as the Weakest (tm) of the player splats, what people see isn't 'Formidable, but doesn't quite measure up to the absurd extent of the other Splats', they just see "Weak little babies who exist to get stomped on".
 
Quick, contact White Wolf and try to change the future so the Exalted 3e corebook doesn't turn into such a production disaster!

Also while you're at it get them to make the Infernals team coordinate better.
yeah sorry i just returned from 2006 i tried but john chambers asked me what the hell an exalted was when i tried to tell him he should make some changes
 
Lookshy still sucks, @mothematics and @YOLF can't stop me. Prasad is radical as hell, an Akatha will sit upon the throne of Prasad as it was meant to be, mark my words.

Manus right now:


(That said, it would have been fun to see less dry description of military composition and more depiction of how the 7th Legion is seen in and how it relates to the region. Less structure and numbers, and more characterizing of the Lookshy military. But overall I really like the lore expansions in the Heirs preview text.)
 
I did. I went through your whole post several times, trying to figure out how it supported your claim. I don't think it does.



Pretty sure that's not so. Not everything about 2e is bad, but it really has nothing to offer a game focused on logistical details. It was never meant to be good for that kind of thing, so it's not.

Also, you've got some kind of weird issue with random links showing up in your posts.
The random links are meant to provide context for extremely abstract concepts I have difficulty explaining directly.

As for econ and logistics stuff, I think you and I may have very different definitions of "nothing to offer." Right in the 2e corebook, p. 265:
THE IMPORTANCE OF SUPPLY
Food is a serious issue for armies. Range and direction is limited by food carried, available plunder and any storehouses along the way. One rider and mount together require about the same amount of food and supplies as four soldiers. Armies that cannot find enough food to survive will starve, disband or revolt against their commanders. There is often a high agricultural surplus in most civilized areas because the rice crops come in three to five times per annum.
The logistics capabilities of most societies means that a roving army of 5,000 is a force to be reckoned with. Defensive forces fortifying a central point such as a typical city-state can exceed this number by three or four times if kept in good supply, though troop quality can vary greatly as these forces generally include militias, conscripts and mercenaries in addition to a core of professional soldiers. Societies capable of fielding larger armies over sustained periods of time and distance can dominate substantial amounts of land.
There's literally more page space in just that chapter, both charts and word count, dedicated to talking about logistical details than there is to establishing training time and XP costs - and the subject crops up in other chapters as well. Where are you getting this impression it was never meant to be good for that kind of thing? After the Mandate of Heaven rules flopped, despite all those national-scale stat blocks scattered through the Compass of Terrestrial Directions series, they tried again in Masters of Jade.
 
"Most people, most of the time, aren't seriously trying to kill each other, even when they're swinging around deadly weapons" is easy enough to explain as a genre convention, and adequately supported by real-world research into, for example, marksmanship. Y'know how many soldiers will put bullets through a paper silhouette just fine, then get all shaky and miss under identical or easier conditions when the target more closely resembles an actual living human? Well over half, to my understanding, at least until they've been through training calculated to overcome that aversion. Then again, I suppose environment and culture also play a role. I'm curious, where you grew up, which was considered a worse offense, in the sense of heavier legal penalties: killing a pedestrian while driving an automobile, or inflicting severe yet recoverable injuries under the same conditions?

Even if it would conflict with setting lore (which I'd dispute, though that's a whole other can of worms), most combatants pulling punches is at the very least adequately supported as a mechanical option, and doing so retains the possibility of "shit just got real" escalation when some bitter enemy finally does go all-out. Fudging a roll, retconning a scene, overriding decisions and dice entirely in favor of a preconceived outcome, doesn't really have a comparable 'undo' option. That sort of fudge is like cheeto dust, tainting everything else you touch thereafter, because it teaches the players that all the rest of the nominal system is just smoke and mirrors. Under such a precedent, the only person at the table whose opinion really matters is the one whose fudge-stained finger hovers over the invisible reset button.

I want to comment on it: first, that is not nearly as adequately supported by research as people who heard about civil war marksmen believe it is; second, we know that people were swinging for the kill in close combat (ancient and medieval battle-fields), because that's actually supported and massacring the weaker army is not that uncommon. We have manuals from even later times, where armors were so good that knights could regularly take each other as prisoners and those still describe how to kill a person in full armour by rolling them on their back and stabbing them where the armour is weaker.

Second: nothing in lore support that: in fact we have fanatical magic ninjas with elemental powers that want to kill every Solar before he grow in power as one of the most serious antagonists. And behind them are super-ninjas with esoteric star powers who want the same.

And third: the players will, almost without exception, swing for the lethal as murderhobos they are. Expecting other side to always want them alive is just as big fudge as pretending that the mechanics of 2e are not broken.

(the proper solution is, of course, hacking Exalted setting on M&M mechanics from Warriors and Warlocks supplement).
 
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Xenophon's Hieron said:
For when cities defeat their opponents in battle, words fail to express the joy they feel in the turning of the enemy, in the pursuit, in the killing of the enemy – such pride they feel in the work! Such shining glory they gain, such happiness at the thought of having enhanced their city! Everyone claims that they had a share in the plan, that they killed the most…

Diodoros of Sicily said:
Dionysios' entire army burst into the city (...) and now every spot was a scene of mass slaughter; for the Sicilian Greeks, eager to return cruelty for cruelty, slew everyone they encountered, sparing without distinction not a child, not a woman, not an elder. Dionysios, wishing to sell the inhabitants into slavery for the money he could gather, at first attempted to restrain the soldiers from murdering the captives, but when no one paid any attention to him and he saw that the fury of the Sicilian Greeks was not to be controlled, he stationed heralds to cry aloud and tell the Motyans to take refuge in the temples which were revered by the Greeks. When this was done, the soldiers ceased their slaughter and turned to looting the property.

It is true that a lot of modern scholarship emphasizes how soldiers were often effectively just Random Dudes who were unaccustomed to killing (it is a lot more comparable to a modern controlled riot or violent protest except instead of chairs and random shit, people wield shields and spears), but this should not be taken to mean that people did not want to kill entirely. People absolutely wanted to kill and to destroy the enemy, for such was glory and the spoils of victory, they were simply unaccustomed to it. We can see in bloody chaos of the sack and the senseless slaughter of the rout that people were absolutely willing and capapble of wanton murder for the sake of plunder and murder alone. Some customs existed such as how the Greeks viewed it as barbaric (as in the actions of a barbarian, a non-Greek) to slaughter women and children during the sack, but their kindness to these took the form of mass enslavement and rape, which is hardly much better. In addition, the rapine slaughter inflicted by an army upon a routed foe or a defenseless city was frequently such that these sacred rules were frequently broken anyways, and especially in the Hellenistic period, it became easier and easier for the great kings of the Successors to make up excuses for the necessity and need for breaking these ancient customs, no matter the target or scale of the sack.

This calculus also changes significantly when professional or veteran soldiers are taken into the calculation, certainly the Greeks feared the power of Iranian riders, who were death on the open plain and the first monarchs of the Near East did their best to consolidate an experienced elite of heavy infantry which would be less unaccustomed to killing and the glory to be earned for such. It was not for nothing that the Romans put the youngest and glory-hungriest men first in their army and their most experienced men at the rear; for those glory-hungry young men among the hastati and the velites this was their chance to shine and glorify themselves in the monomachia (single combat) and take the glory that was theirs.
 
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I want to comment on it: first, that is not nearly as adequately supported by research as people who heard about civil war marksmen believe it is; second, we know that people were swinging for the kill in close combat (ancient and medieval battle-fields), because that's actually supported and massacring the weaker army is not that uncommon. We have manuals from even later times, where armors were so good that knights could regularly take each other as prisoners and those still describe how to kill a person in full armour by rolling them on their back and stabbing them where the armour is weaker.

Second: nothing in lore support that: in fact we have fanatical magic ninjas with elemental powers that want to kill every Solar before he grow in power as one of the most serious antagonists. And behind them are super-ninjas with esoteric star powers who want the same.

And third: the players will, almost without exception, swing for the lethal as murderhobos they are. Expecting other side to always want them alive is just as big fudge as pretending that the mechanics of 2e are not broken.

(the proper solution is, of course, hacking Exalted setting on M&M mechanics from Warriors and Warlocks supplement).
In reverse order, then:
Given that not everyone has the budget to implement a proper solution all by themselves, a patch option supported by the existing mechanics seems like it could be useful.

How the players behave is on them. If they go around routinely swinging what others consider excessive force, that could play out as a straight power fantasy (which for some is clearly the explicit goal, and if they're all having fun i see no problem there), a hook for social challenges and segue into overthrowing local governments, and/or a tragic morality play, depending on how the ST decides to follow up.

Lore says the vast majority of people in Creation - hell, the majority of dragon-blooded and sidereal exalts - aren't named Peleps Deled. Many of them aren't full members of the Wyld Hunt at all, and a few here and there don't even dedicate every waking moment to living by Immaculate ideals. An elite hit squad of element-bending fanatics in full power armor backed by a vast empire and the forces of Destiny itself is meant to feel like a potential TPK; some thug who pulls a knife in a bar fight, not so much. Having the thug aim to leave a disfiguring scar or otherwise hold back rather than going straight for the jugular supports that distinction. Normal people could still be killed in that sort of fight: lethal wound in the incap box could roll over into dying if nobody bandages it in time, and even a scratch can get infected. Exalts are much safer from that kind of thing, but can still theoretically succumb to blood loss, or be finished off by some otherwise trivial problem (like smoke inhalation, hypothermia, or falling off a horse Christopher Reeve - Wikipedia ) that manages to inflict a little bit of bashing damage before they recuperate.

As for historical research on individual killing intent, I ask that you consider part of the definition of Unacceptable Orders:
This is sometimes realistic but is explicitly not based on realism. This rule exists to empower persuasion while making sure that characters influence their enemies to do more interesting things than "die."
Called shots to maim or otherwise limit injury are a tactical choice which it is possible for characters to make. If consistent use of that tactic produces a desirable result, in and out of character, where is the problem?

Have you ever, seriously, seen an otherwise tolerable player in an actual ongoing game of Exalted flip the table and storm out, or even complain, on the grounds that their willing suspension of disbelief was shattered by the mere existence of an unfriendly NPC with an agenda more complex than, or in conflict with, bringing about the immediate death of all the PCs as efficiently as possible? Because, I gotta say, every time this facet of the paranoia combat argument comes up, the concept of a non-sociopathic baseline for NPC behavior, even when supported by setting lore and/or political game theory, seems to be treated like some alien pestilence that needs to be locked up in a level 4 lab with an on-site warhead.
It is true that a lot of modern scholarship emphasizes how soldiers were often effectively just Random Dudes who were unaccustomed to killing (it is a lot more comparable to a modern controlled riot or violent protest except instead of chairs and random shit, people wield shields and spears), but this should not be taken to mean that people did not want to kill entirely. People absolutely wanted to kill and to destroy the enemy, for such was glory and the spoils of victory, they were simply unaccustomed to it. We can see in bloody chaos of the sack and the senseless slaughter of the rout that people were absolutely willing and capapble of wanton murder for the sake of plunder and murder alone.
I am by no means suggesting that highly-motivated lethal violence would never occur. Behavior of angry mobs, professional or otherwise, is in fact addressed at some length in the 2e corebook on p. 168, including odds of survival among the rank-and-file on the losing end of a battle.
 
Ancient armies were certainly willing to go for the kill when faced with a fleeing enemy or a bunch of defenseless civilians. But I gather they were a lot less murderous when faced with opponents who were actually fighting back.

I'm not a historian, but from what I'm told ancient battles were mostly about fear. You win by breaking the enemy's morale, not by killing them.

If the average soldier was as fearless as the average player character, ancient battles would've been much much shorter and much much bloodier. That doesn't mean ancient soldiers didn't want to kill; it just means they didn't want to die.

The random links are meant to provide context for extremely abstract concepts I have difficulty explaining directly.

I'm afraid it doesn't work. It's just confusing.

Where are you getting this impression it was never meant to be good for that kind of thing? After the Mandate of Heaven rules flopped, despite all those national-scale stat blocks scattered through the Compass of Terrestrial Directions series, they tried again in Masters of Jade.

MoJ is actually what I had in mind. When it came time to write an organization system, they went out of their way to make it abstract. They actively sought to remove the logistical details, to make the system work even if the players don't know or care how much food it takes to support each soldier in the army they're sending out.
 
In reverse order, then:
Given that not everyone has the budget to implement a proper solution all by themselves, a patch option supported by the existing mechanics seems like it could be useful.

How the players behave is on them. If they go around routinely swinging what others consider excessive force, that could play out as a straight power fantasy (which for some is clearly the explicit goal, and if they're all having fun i see no problem there), a hook for social challenges and segue into overthrowing local governments, and/or a tragic morality play, depending on how the ST decides to follow up.

Lore says the vast majority of people in Creation - hell, the majority of dragon-blooded and sidereal exalts - aren't named Peleps Deled. Many of them aren't full members of the Wyld Hunt at all, and a few here and there don't even dedicate every waking moment to living by Immaculate ideals. An elite hit squad of element-bending fanatics in full power armor backed by a vast empire and the forces of Destiny itself is meant to feel like a potential TPK; some thug who pulls a knife in a bar fight, not so much. Having the thug aim to leave a disfiguring scar or otherwise hold back rather than going straight for the jugular supports that distinction. Normal people could still be killed in that sort of fight: lethal wound in the incap box could roll over into dying if nobody bandages it in time, and even a scratch can get infected. Exalts are much safer from that kind of thing, but can still theoretically succumb to blood loss, or be finished off by some otherwise trivial problem (like smoke inhalation, hypothermia, or falling off a horse Christopher Reeve - Wikipedia ) that manages to inflict a little bit of bashing damage before they recuperate.

As for historical research on individual killing intent, I ask that you consider part of the definition of Unacceptable Orders: Called shots to maim or otherwise limit injury are a tactical choice which it is possible for characters to make. If consistent use of that tactic produces a desirable result, in and out of character, where is the problem?

Have you ever, seriously, seen an otherwise tolerable player in an actual ongoing game of Exalted flip the table and storm out, or even complain, on the grounds that their willing suspension of disbelief was shattered by the mere existence of an unfriendly NPC with an agenda more complex than, or in conflict with, bringing about the immediate death of all the PCs as efficiently as possible? Because, I gotta say, every time this facet of the paranoia combat argument comes up, the concept of a non-sociopathic baseline for NPC behavior, even when supported by setting lore and/or political game theory, seems to be treated like some alien pestilence that needs to be locked up in a level 4 lab with an on-site warhead.

I am by no means suggesting that highly-motivated lethal violence would never occur. Behavior of angry mobs, professional or otherwise, is in fact addressed at some length in the 2e corebook on p. 168, including odds of survival among the rank-and-file on the losing end of a battle.

Dude, what excessive force? The system is lethal on the baseline, how many players go before the game and say: all our characters from now on add additional step of calling shots to make it so that we don't kill anyone? I mean, you can do princess bride in Exalted, I guess, but most of the players I know are more on the "and now I jump across the room and cut that dude in half from head to groin". And that is not even counting the characters with vendetta against that ninja clan over there, which murdered their family.

As for the paranoia combat in 2ed: it's not that all the NPC needs to be psychos looking out to efficiently deliver TPK, it's that the accidental outcome can be death by swinging one of those big cool swords with full excellency by starting Abyssal Exalt opponent. Please, don't construct a strawman when everyone who do lethal damage is anomaly, that's not how 2e play in practice.

The question of "flip the table and storm out" is another rather ridiculous straw-man. . Players, who know you for years, know when and how you are pulling punches; and some just don't like it. I don't have a group that goes "and now we are cooperating to do a novel-like story, no character dies unless he has dramatic speech at the climatic and right moment prepared".

Unacceptable orders are a bad fix for the social system that can't handle social Exalt powers that are brainwashing-level. So that you don't do HTT of "and now jump from the cliff". It's another thing appart from Big Hammers and don't get into this argument.

For the budget: I assume that if you and your group are buying Exalted products, you have a free-floating cash, like even in Poland, it costs less than few rounds of shots to get a RPG book that will serve you for years.
 
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MoJ is actually what I had in mind. When it came time to write an organization system, they went out of their way to make it abstract. They actively sought to remove the logistical details, to make the system work even if the players don't know or care how much food it takes to support each soldier in the army they're sending out.
My impression was that when it came time to write an organization system, they found out that step one would be assimilating and possibly even surpassing almost the entire disciplines of economics and political science to create a unified theory of how things work from the stone age through luxury space communism, plus magic, and step two would be boiling that back down to a system simple enough to be playable, all of which would take time and budget they didn't have.

So, like any good software engineers, they hacked together something which at least mostly defined the relevant variables and interactions, compiled and ran without obviously fatal errors, and shipped the mess just under deadline with "temporary I hope hope hope" still commented-out here and there. The Codeless Code: Case 234 Ozymandias Heavy abstraction was the result, but not the objective. Ask somebody to paint a portrait in thirty seconds, the results will tend to be fairly abstract - really you'll be lucky to get more than a stick figure.

A complete, rigorous system would be usable by people who didn't understand logistical details themselves, or care to study the subject - instead, the rules would know for them, like that old Chinese Room thought experiment.
 
My impression was that when it came time to write an organization system, they found out that step one would be assimilating and possibly even surpassing almost the entire disciplines of economics and political science to create a unified theory of how things work from the stone age through luxury space communism, plus magic, and step two would be boiling that back down to a system simple enough to be playable, all of which would take time and budget they didn't have.

So, like any good software engineers, they hacked together something which at least mostly defined the relevant variables and interactions, compiled and ran without obviously fatal errors, and shipped the mess just under deadline with "temporary I hope hope hope" still commented-out here and there. The Codeless Code: Case 234 Ozymandias Heavy abstraction was the result, but not the objective. Ask somebody to paint a portrait in thirty seconds, the results will tend to be fairly abstract - really you'll be lucky to get more than a stick figure.

A complete, rigorous system would be usable by people who didn't understand logistical details themselves, or care to study the subject - instead, the rules would know for them, like that old Chinese Room thought experiment.
I really don't think their plan was ever to write a complete unified theory of anything as that would be worth a Nobel prize and entirely too much effort for a ttrpg
 
I don't have a group that goes "and now we are cooperating to do a novel-like story, no character dies unless he has dramatic speech at the climatic and right moment prepared".
No word of a lie, this is my ideal sort of game. I'm not in this to just accept dying like a punk to some random bad roll, I'm here to play an Epic with an actual, satisfying conclusion. The system is fun, but in my eyes it exists to facilitate the fantasy, and any mechanical challenge is at best incidental.

It is in fact possible to have meaningful failure and tension without killing off PCs.
 
No word of a lie, this is my ideal sort of game. I'm not in this to just accept dying like a punk to some random bad roll, I'm here to play an Epic with an actual, satisfying conclusion. The system is fun, but in my eyes it exists to facilitate the fantasy, and any mechanical challenge is at best incidental.

It is in fact possible to have meaningful failure and tension without killing off PCs.
Absolutely. It's important to remember how much of the mechanics in 2e are simulationist, and thus won't come out and tell you what really matters and what doesn't. If defensive optimization has rendered characters functionally invincible but they come into violent conflict anyway, just play out a round or three of that, run the numbers, then if necessary have the ST step in with "...they fought from dawn 'til dusk..." and look at the fatigue rules for continuous heavy exertion in full armor to see who'd collapse first from exhaustion, or otherwise fast-forward to the next scene of meaningful decisions.
 
I should note that when I say it's my ideal game, I say that in the context of 3e. In order facilitate a story, the mechanics do in fact need to be able to properly create the tone, pace and feel of the fantasy on some level.

As far as I'm concerned, 2e is largely incapable of that. :V
 
Heavy abstraction was the result, but not the objective. Ask somebody to paint a portrait in thirty seconds, the results will tend to be fairly abstract - really you'll be lucky to get more than a stick figure.

Masters of Jade was written by many of the same people who wrote Ex3. They've talked extensively about their decisions and why they made them.

I'm confident that heavy abstraction was the objective.

A complete, rigorous system would be usable by people who didn't understand logistical details themselves, or care to study the subject - instead, the rules would know for them, like that old Chinese Room thought experiment.

That would, as rogthor said, be worthy of a Nobel prize.

But you don't need to go that far. It's really not that hard to make a system that puts logistics front and center. You just need to willing to let the players do much of the work, and not worry too much about them getting the details wrong. Exalted has never done this becaue Exalted has never wanted to do this.
 
Hi! I'm new to Exalted, and am trying to run a game with my family, two parents and a younger brother. We all have only played DND before, but I have done basic research, watched some online playthroughs, and read through the relevant parts of the core, seeking online clarification when necessary. I have basic experience DMing a group from DND, but have mostly just run modules. Currently, my players' characters are mostly finished, and my parents have made decent backstories, both with relatively well-rounded night castes. My brother, on the other hand, has made a flower-loving ex-noble who wants to restore his family to grace and also destroy poverty. I managed to talk him into getting one offensive and defensive charm, but have a feeling he's unprepared for combat. Or anything, really. Any advice?
 
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