Yeah, I tried out a few ideas and that seemed to be the set up which best supported "Low level PC play encourages you to do things like have a familiar, make a deal with a spirit, or refuse to give up your Artefact staff a la Gandalf, while high level empire-ruling sorcerers are encourged to be awful people who conquer nations to take their demenses and plunder their wealth".

Amusingly, in some ways this set up actually helps PC sorcerers, because I reduced the spell cost to 5XP to compensate for the Merit "tax".

At the same time, the "anchor to sustain" model while a Sapphire Circle Sorcerer does need some serious bling, they don't need to conquer the nation. They can get by perfectly well with their status as a king or court sorcerer, a strong artifact, and probably a powerful familiar for Sapphire anchors. It does put limits on them, when it comes to things like calling up demon lords and the like, but the limit tends to be "you can only do one of those things at a time" rather than "you can't do them at all", which is much better gameplay-wise. In addition, a conscientious PC can make the effort (or the sacrifice) not to give into temptation presented by the system, and succeed, while still being a powerful sorcerer. The same applies to the Adamant circle, to a somewhat lesser extent.

I think the ability of the system to accommodate players who don't want to end up evil is an important one. Communication of expectations is a key part of an RPG, and in any big-name RPG, or RPG meant to handle a wide range of game types or genres, you're going to get a wide range of player types interested. Thus, any system that intentionally limits, nudges, (or much more commonly) assumes the type of character the player will make (in personality or abilities) must be handled delicately, or else make clear communication of what types of characters the system Does Not Allow.

Exalted is one of those RPG's that handles a wide range of players, and is aimed toward new players as well as experienced ones. (It's one of the reasons I prefer 3e to 2e; 3e is less likely to self-destruct in the hands of a ignorant player or DM.) Because the lore does not forbid or prescribe a various types of sorcerer characters, it needs to be able to handle players who want to play them; good and evil sorcerers, rebellious and conforming types, loners and social butterflies.

Where I think your hack is nicely made is 1.) the requirements of the anchor don't outright prevent the character from doing any given sorcerer thing, but more commonly the scale of it, or produces inconveniences that can be worked around ad-hoc and 2.) whether a sorcerer chooses to go anchor-heavy or anchor-light, the issues they face align well with the "empire builder vs. personal free agent", rather than frustrate their character concepts. On the second point, players who choose to go the anchor-heavy route are the ones who are going to be most interested in building up the empires and merits. It limits their abilities, but not the direction of their ambitions, and essentially becomes another facet of their empire building. Those who go anchor light are more limited in the amount of force they can project; Ultimately, they're more limited to a more personal scale- which is where they want to be anyway. A character frustrated by the limits of one path has to deal with the limits of the other- but the limits don't create a "wrong" path that is limited or frustrated compared to the other. Ultimately, what the anchor system does is say "to be this type of sorcerer, you must face these types of limits". The elegance of the system a player who just chooses based on the type of sorcerer they want to be doesn't hit deal-breaker limits later on.

On the first point, you don't end up with something where stable pocket dimensions or demon summoning are the sole province of anchor-heavy sorcerers, and anchor-light sorcerers can't do that at all. Rather, a sorcerer working on a limited number of anchors means they're limited to one demon lord at a time, or one pocket dimension, or only a band of 5-6 lesser demons. Importantly, it lets players make a powerful demon-summoner who is also not the empire-builder type.
 
My feelings on Fajad depend on if it's going to be 'Muslimland' or one of many cultures with Islamic influences.

Right now, I'd be nervous to run a chronicle in Fajad in a way I wouldn't be about setting a game in Morocco or Egypt. The Abhari creed is such a major point of interest and the first example of monotheists in the setting that I can't see some players being able to resist poking at them and asking "you there! why do you hold this unusual system of belief? *Dalek voice*EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN!"
 
Speaking of Fajad, anyone here think that the One God may actually be a thing(if not the "true" One God). At first, I thought it was most likely something the Fajadi prophets cooked up for prayer fodder, but given how weird Fajad's environs are, it could be a multitude of things. Since the North is littered with Wyld Zones and Fae, maybe a bastardized Shinma cult?
 
My feelings on Fajad depend on if it's going to be 'Muslimland' or one of many cultures with Islamic influences.

Right now, I'd be nervous to run a chronicle in Fajad in a way I wouldn't be about setting a game in Morocco or Egypt. The Abhari creed is such a major point of interest and the first example of monotheists in the setting that I can't see some players being able to resist poking at them and asking "you there! why do you hold this unusual system of belief? *Dalek voice*EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN!"

Theologically, the Abhari may be monotheists, but since each prophet is worshipped as an emissary of the One God, its pretty different from modern monotheism(closest analogues would be Catholic Saints and perhaps some Islamic Mazars and even then the theological ruling is that its not worship). I thought Ahlat's cult in Harborhead was the closest approximation of De Facto monotheism in Creation. The Harborheadites worship Ahlat in ways wildly outside his true purview and more or less view him as the singular greatest thing since ever(rustic UCS cults aside). Worship of Autocthon also comes close.

Since only the densest zealot would deny the existence of other gods in Creation, the closest one can come to practical monotheism in Exalted is monolatry. Interacting with Spirits is something human civilization in Creation needs to survive(even when policed by DBs), but a priest negotiating with a local god in a technical sense is not the same as that priest having geniune religious faith in that god's creed. So a priest might only truly worship (as we understand the term) a single god, but at the same time perform propitiating rites for many spirits.
 
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Theologically, the Abhari may be monotheists, but since each prophet is worshipped as an emissary of the One God, its pretty different from modern monotheism(closest analogues would be Catholic Saints and perhaps some Islamic Mazars and even then the theological ruling is that its not worship).
I get that.
My problem is I'm not sure how to portray the Abhari reaction to this kind of scrutiny and kind of nervous about fucking this up because they (at least superficially) represent a marginalised group that some of my players belong to. If they end up the only people in the world with a belief system like this I'll regard it as a failure of the chapter to not give me the tools to work with Fajad's obvious point of interest.

HamSandLich said:
I thought Ahlat's cult in Harborhead was the closest approximation of De Facto monotheism in Creation. The Harborheadites worship Ahlat in ways wildly outside his true purview and more or less view him as the singular greatest thing since ever(rustic UCS cults aside).
That's more henotheism, which in my experience is what a lot of roleplayers think polytheism looks like thanks to Dungeons and Dragons.
Anyway, I don't envision my PCs badgering people on their faith in Harborhead or similar places.
 
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Speaking of Fajad, anyone here think that the One God may actually be a thing(if not the "true" One God). At first, I thought it was most likely something the Fajadi prophets cooked up for prayer fodder, but given how weird Fajad's environs are, it could be a multitude of things. Since the North is littered with Wyld Zones and Fae, maybe a bastardized Shinma cult?
I see no reason why it should not be true, nor why some or even all of the prophets don't legitimately believe in the creed.

It would be an interesting twist on the whole "false prophets" thing if it was a division between prophets who are true believers and those spirits who are just trying to use the "brand" to make a quick buck or gain some of its influence by association.

Edit: Like the difference between being a devout Christian and being a televangelist, basically.
 
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I see no reason why it should not be true, no why some or even all of the prophets don't legitimately believe in the creed.

It would be an interesting twist on the whole "false prophets" thing if it was a division between prophets who are true believers and those spirits who are just trying to use the "brand" to make a quick buck or gain some of its influence by association.

The fact that rejecting the Prophets to worship the One God alone is proscribed under the Abhari creed implies some degree of cynicism on the behalf of all the prophets, though motivations for proscribing it may vary.
 
Discussions on the BotW 2 announcement thread just reminded me that Ganondorf is a pretty archetypal Exalted style sorcerer.

All his spells are strategic in scale, whether they be blighting the land, a magical plague or creating monsters (deku tree, ReDead and the various bosses respectively)
 
Speaking as someone who's currently putting together OC factions/tribes for a Northern campaign, does anyone have an idea where I could start looking for information on how to try and do a better take on "let's add some Islam to this Creation" than Fajad?

PS: Extending an offer of collaboration, or at least sharing notes on our respective campaigns, @Lioness.
 
Speaking as someone who's currently putting together OC factions/tribes for a Northern campaign, does anyone have an idea where I could start looking for information on how to try and do a better take on "let's add some Islam to this Creation" than Fajad?

PS: Extending an offer of collaboration, or at least sharing notes on our respective campaigns, @Lioness.
Could be interesting. As mentioned I've got a couple of players who know more about the subject than I do to bounce ideas off of.
 
Discussions on the BotW 2 announcement thread just reminded me that Ganondorf is a pretty archetypal Exalted style sorcerer.

All his spells are strategic in scale, whether they be blighting the land, a magical plague or creating monsters (deku tree, ReDead and the various bosses respectively)

Yeah, the triforce/demise thing fits a exigent really well tbh.
 
Speaking as someone who's currently putting together OC factions/tribes for a Northern campaign, does anyone have an idea where I could start looking for information on how to try and do a better take on "let's add some Islam to this Creation" than Fajad?

PS: Extending an offer of collaboration, or at least sharing notes on our respective campaigns, @Lioness.

Well, the problem with incorporating too much Abrahamic themes into Creation is that they either clash with the setting aesthetic a lot or their iconography is associated with either the Neverborn or the Yozis. For example: The prophet leading her people through the Southern desert is more than likely a Malefactor Infernal spreading the word of Cecelyne, and in this instance "submission to God" is equal to "let Cecelyne abuse you and your descendants for eternity". In such a context, portrayals of Islamic themes might gain an unintended negative light.

The Immaculate Order's rejection of icons is similar to Islam's, while Fajad is basically a standard fantasy pantheon with some superficially Islamic aesthetics.
 
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@GardenerBriareus what parts of Islam are you actually trying to incorporate into your game, just the aesthetics and lingo, or deeper theological themes? The North is littered with Shadowlands and Wyld Zones (respectively making porting Roman Catholic and Hindu themes easier).
 
I feel like you can pretty easily incorporate Abrahamic faiths into Creation without running into thematic issues, given what people usually mean when they say "Abrahamic" is "A strongly Hellenized version of Christianity", especially considering the average nerd's knowledge of what Islam or Judaism involve is as dry as the great Sahara.

Well, the problem with incorporating too much Abrahamic themes into Creation is that they either clash with the setting aesthetic a lot or their iconography is associated with either the Neverborn or the Yozis. For example: The prophet leading her people through the Southern desert is more than likely a Malefactor Infernal spreading the word of Cecelyne, and in this instance "submission to God" is equal to "let Cecelyne abuse you and your descendants for eternity".
There isn't actually a lot of Abrahamic iconography associated with either Yozis or Neverborn beyond Cecelyne's desert theme, and most of her Abrahamic associations were some which she only really received in her 2e Charmset, what with the summoning of the Manna or the journey through the desert. But Exalted, for example, has never had a people similar to the Hebrews; no Chosen People, no Ark of Covenant, no Exodus from Egypt. Similarly, I can't even remember any named Prophets in Exalted in the style of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) or Jesus, other than Ikerre, who is only named in the context of having wielded the Eye of Autochthon once. Hell, the Immaculate Faith doesn't even have a founding myth! The matter of fact is that even in a world of gods, people are going to tell stories about things, and some of those stories will involve worship and some will involve submission to higher beings, visible or not. I feel like giving them the treatment of "well actually it's just the gods/Yozis/ghosts/demons/whatever tricking some dumb humans into worshipping them" is an unsatisfactory treatment, because of how devoid of nuance it is.

Speaking as someone who's currently putting together OC factions/tribes for a Northern campaign, does anyone have an idea where I could start looking for information on how to try and do a better take on "let's add some Islam to this Creation" than Fajad?
I am not Muslim myself, but I grew up with partly Islamic background, so I might be able to help you if you want it? Otherwise, I know @Havocfett likes Exalted to some extent and is a Muslim himself, so you might be able to ask him as well.
 
@ManusDomini I'm probably mixing in some of Theion's themes with the Yozis then, though certain aspects of Neverborn worship remind me heavily of Catholic imagery regarding communion and mortification of the flesh (the fact that the most recognizable Christian icon is a torture/execution device probably helps).
 
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@ManusDomini I'm probably mixing in some of Theion's themes with the Yozis then, though certain aspects of Neverborn worship remind me heavily of Catholic imagery regarding communion and mortification of the flesh
Hmmm, you're right, the Neverborn do have that. To be honest, the Neverborn are such a big nothingburger I kinda forgot lol. But even Theion only really existed around Shards, which is when he got his Charmset, and I believe @Omicron has pointed out before that his whole Abrahamic theme is mostly just aesthetics, and if you actually use Theion as serious commentary on Abrahamic faiths, you're more likely to get a character out of a Philip Pullman story. :V

Still, good catch on the Neverborn thing, I'd forgotten that.
 
Hmmm, you're right, the Neverborn do have that. To be honest, the Neverborn are such a big nothingburger I kinda forgot lol. But even Theion only really existed around Shards, which is when he got his Charmset, and I believe @Omicron has pointed out before that his whole Abrahamic theme is mostly just aesthetics, and if you actually use Theion as serious commentary on Abrahamic faiths, you're more likely to get a character out of a Philip Pullman story. :V

Still, good catch on the Neverborn thing, I'd forgotten that.

Yeah, the Neverborn really capture the whole "dying god/suffering god" thing that other Exalted divinities never really manage (Golden Eyed Jorst tries, but mostly fails at it). But if one is looking for a divinity in Exalted that comes closest to the level of power and knowledge that the Abrahamic god is described as having, its Primordials, Incarnae (which the Exigents book might help with), or something Shinma related. There could be religions that have a view of a Single All-Powerful God, but that runs into problems as its something they cooked up themselves or the ST reworks the whole setting just to make the True One God look cooler (making everyone else look like rubes by comparison).
 
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Hmmm, you're right, the Neverborn do have that. To be honest, the Neverborn are such a big nothingburger I kinda forgot lol. But even Theion only really existed around Shards, which is when he got his Charmset, and I believe @Omicron has pointed out before that his whole Abrahamic theme is mostly just aesthetics, and if you actually use Theion as serious commentary on Abrahamic faiths, you're more likely to get a character out of a Philip Pullman story. :V

Still, good catch on the Neverborn thing, I'd forgotten that.
I did!
My problem with Malfeas-as-YHVH is that this reading tends to stop at "pillars of salt" and "Sodom and Gomhora" and discards all the nuance of the character. It's not really a critical look at an Old Testament God figure, it's just a take-down. There is no Covenant, there is no chosen people, there is no guidance to freedom out of the desert (on a journey made arbitrarily longer as a punishment for apostasy), there are no prophets send to save their people from extermination (by exterminating the other guy instead), there are no tablets of law (which combine crucial foundations of society and self-serving worship). There's no complexity.

This is fine if you want Malfeas to just be, well, Malfeas. Malfeas doesn't have these nuanced sides. He was a ruthless, cruel, uncaring tyrant. But if you want Malfeas as a commentary on the Biblical God then you're just constructing the kind of cheap strawman I'd expect out of a Philip Pullman story. It would be a more nuanced story if Malfeas actually had the complexity of a relationship with mankind where humanity eventually decides that this isn't worth it and it wants freedom, and rises up to fight God; but then the game would be a lot more risky, and a lot more in-your-face about its politics, than it wants to be. And that's saying something.
But as far as the Neverborn go, they are like... Gneeeeh...

There's a conflict between the need to actually make the Neverborn not completely boring and useless for RP, and the need to preserve the idea that they are dead and dying forever and should not be characters in their own right, but dreadful corpses whose decay shakes the world.

One way to do this would be to completely ditch the idea of distinct, individual Neverborn, and instead speak of "the Neverborn" the way Ogier sings of the gods behind the gods, an indefferentiated hostility who is interesting because of its aesthetic, its effects on the world, its servants, its scope, its legendary background, but who is never identified as more than "the Neverborn;" the gods-that-were-not.

On the other hand it means you can't have this:

The Question

At the heart of the Underworld, there is a place where the rivers of oblivion converge and drip from vast cracks and crevices to the immense caverns that sit, spider-like, where all tunnels of the Labyrinth connect; there the waters cascade down into rain shed on the tomb of titans. In this place forsaken by human memory, there is a ziggurat of black stone and inimaginable size, space itself bending to accommodate its height. Centuries ago, a ghost climbed the steps of this forsaken temple, braved howling winds and laughing-mad Whisperers; at the altar he cast off his name, and asked something. And the cavernous depths of the ziggurat answered with one question, which the ghost took in his heart, sheltered and nurtured and let fester until it seeped into his very being.

Now the first level of the temple is dominated by the expanse of Kurnugia, the City From Which None Return, barring the way up and controlling access to the ziggurat's higher levels; its temple district in which reside the prophet-magistrates rises from the flat expanse where the stairs interrupt, while the slave-quarters spill down along the stairs to the earth and the shores of the black lake that pools below the city. Kurnugia is of cyclopean make; enormous slabs of rough-hewn stone and carried by moaning ghost-slaves to be assembled in forts and temple walls whose broken angles and lines reveal the madness of their architects. The shrine-towers of the temple district are made of iron, extracted from the walls of the Labyrinth, their dark facets reflecting the endless agonies of the slaves sacrificed at their top. These are not the living quarters of the priests, who prefer their squat palaces of stone, capped by domes of glass, where they recline on silken cushions while drinking the Wine of Endless Remembrance and smoking exotic herbs in which they mixed the souls of punished slaves, captured in crystal by sorcery and ground to dust.

Theirs are not the lives of their servants, who lead fitful and short existences in their abodes of clay, their narrow alleyways patrolled by sadistic mortwights. The closer to the temple district one is, the higher one's status and the lesser one's freedom; in the plazas facing the temples' doors, janissaries are trained into true war-ghosts by their masters, reshaped into fanatic soldiers with twisted devil-bodies. Far below, beggar-masons gather at the passage of a mere mortwight pleading to be granted a day of work, and chain-gangs are led into the deadly caverns of the Labyrinth to extract the stone to the tune of ancient working songs - but those who fail to find work also escape the eyes of the soldiers, and meet in the darkest alleyways where the stairs are broken and eroded to a gentle slope; there they make plans to kill their betters and steal their riches, or to racket their fellow slaves. Below even them, the fishermen on the shore venture on the waters of the black lake to feed the throng above them, their status as slaves a polite fiction, for who would bother policing them on these deadly flows?

On every turning of the calendar the dim red light of the Nameless Moon, refracted from the cracks in their ceiling into the infinite droplets of the rivers that rain upon the city, casts Kurnugia in a crimson glow. Then the prophet-magistrates gather, and the blood of countless hundreds rains down the steps of the ziggurat, painting the whole city red and marring even the black lake below. The slaves themselves are prone to dancing in the streets, taken with delirious joy, washed in the violence and death that gave them birth. On this day, the priest-king of Kurnugia comes out of his personal temple in his full attire and glory, and raises his hands to the sky; in a blessed moment where the red moon aligns perfectly, all - sky and earth and city and people and waters - are as one, blending into an expense of pure red that is at once spilled blood and setting sun; in that moment the priest-king asks:

"WHO IS HE?"

He receives no answer. And so the nephwrack lowers his hands, the moment passes, and the tremendous power of the ritual sacrifice is channeled to some other, more practical purpose, by him and his magistrates. But the priest-king is not satisfied, and as he goes back to his chambers he already makes plan to improve the sacrifice, to perfect it, and to finally obtain the answer that he seeks.
and that sucks because I love everything about Mardukth.
 
I did!

But as far as the Neverborn go, they are like... Gneeeeh...

There's a conflict between the need to actually make the Neverborn not completely boring and useless for RP, and the need to preserve the idea that they are dead and dying forever and should not be characters in their own right, but dreadful corpses whose decay shakes the world.

One way to do this would be to completely ditch the idea of distinct, individual Neverborn, and instead speak of "the Neverborn" the way Ogier sings of the gods behind the gods, an indefferentiated hostility who is interesting because of its aesthetic, its effects on the world, its servants, its scope, its legendary background, but who is never identified as more than "the Neverborn;" the gods-that-were-not.

On the other hand it means you can't have this:


and that sucks because I love everything about Mardukth.
I mean, why can't you have that if the nevwrborn are just in the backround?

Like if the never born parent characters, but instead simply the corruptive force of decaying gods, twisting the world in their image not through active malice but sheer metaphysical inertia, then you can totally have that city? And their is no answer because the never born are dead, they will never answer.

@HamSandLich @ManusDomini on the topic of the Yozi as YHWH stand in (and speaking as a Jewish person) I have always wanted to play a loyalist Infernal who does subscribe wholly to their worship, playing into their ascetics to give my own Infernal the ascetics of the old testament

Basically the idea is that meeting the Yozi for this character was a truly religious experience. In that one moment of witnessing their broken forms, he finally got an answer to why the world has pain, has suffering.

Because its gods do. Because the rulers of the world have been bound and broken, and if they could simply be restored, the true faith returned to the people, everything would be better
 
The Neverborn have a certain "pathos" to them that I feel other Exalted divinities lack (the Yozi approach this, but are too self-sabotaging and dysfunctional to really make it work). What happened to them was horrible and its not going to stop being horrible. They're not the monster you can go on a quest to kill and save the day, the Neverborn want you to kill them and the only way to do so is to destroy Creation. Lording your victory over them is akin to gloating about how you beat up a cripple, a cosmically powerful nihilistic cripple, but a cripple nonetheless. The Neverborn offer some semblance of kinship and belonging to ghosts (and Abyssals) who have lost faith in everything (much like the Neverborn are eternally rejected by the Creation that they're shackled to), which is oddly heartwarming.

I love "The Question" piece about Mardukth because it captures a lot of that pathos, screaming out to the cosmos in search of succor that doe not come (Mardukth in particular because unlike the rest of the Neverborn, his entire life was one long existential crisis). Chorus of the Neverborn captures a lot of that too. The idea that a lot of Nephwracks and Abyssals worship the Neverborn out of a twisted sense of pity or in attempt to assuage their pain really appeals to me.
 
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