Yes. Dragon-Blooded are still people. If you are a master of your field, it is because you have dedicated yourself to that field, for which the ceiling is a lot higher for Dragon-Blooded, allowing them to reach heights that mortals cannot. The floor is also heightened, but not as a result of Dragon-Blooded being Dragon-Blooded, but because the Realm is a wealthy society and Dynasts are at the top, allowing them to hire whatever teachers and tutors necessary as well as send their precious children through years and years of one of the best education systems in all of Creation and then send them to Secondary School and then give them a place in society where they have the place, wealth and status to experiment safely. In other words, infrastructure once again proves advantageous and favourable; Dragon-Blooded are just as much shaped by society as they are shapers of it.
Mmm... The thing is though, you said,
I did read your post, it's just that when there's nothing in the setting, nothing in the mechanics and nothing in the axioms of the setting to indicate any of the sort for Dragon-Blooded, I don't really feel the need to defend the position that they are axiomatically better than mortals at anything they focus themselves on.
and, assuming I read this correctly as "they are axiomatically..." meaning "[the Dragonblooded] are axiomatically..." then I think that's true as far as it goes, but... it doesn't go very far.

Standard caveats vis-a-vis mechanics are an abstraction, the map is not the territory, but as Revlid once pointed out, an Int 2 Bureaucracy 2 (Trade 1) DB could fairly accurately be described as unexceptional, yes? Average intellect, basic professional training, some specific focus on trade. But if they have even a Bureaucracy Excellency, the absolute bog-basic ground floor of magical skill that simply represents a known capacity to derive flashes of brilliance from their heroic nature on a semi-consistent basis, then their dicepool for setting up a trading venture spikes to 8, and that rapidly closes on if not equals "smartest mortal in the Imperial City with notable management expertise" territory.

Now, there will absolutely be Dragonbloods who just don't have an aptitude for this skillset, people who are aggressively disinterested or flunked classes or have mental blocks. But when when the bar is that low, that the Dragonblooded equivalent of an unexceptional plodder can hold their own against a breakout luminary, I find the idea that there will be some Dragonbloods who have no aptitude for these skills to be, not impossible, just... insignificant?

That said, I think this is mainly a casualty of how this argument has been going on for four pages now, and a certain amount of rhetorical drift has happened. People would, I think, benefit from taking a moment to step back and see how much what they're arguing for now resembles where we started, which had an awful lot less to do with the relative talents of mortals and Dragonbloods, and an awful lot more to do with how just because you're a Dragonblood doesn't mean the entire cultural and social landscape of the Realm will support everything you do.

This should not be controversial, really. Consider what the Realm does with Lost Eggs; does it adopt them into the Great Houses on the basis that, well, they're a Dragonblooded after everything else? No! It offers them the razor or the coin, because it wants the power of having a plurality of the world's Dragonblooded's, but it doesn't necessarily want to dilute the breeding of the Great Houses with any muck-spattered unknown with a drop of the Dragon's blood. Clearly, "being a Dragonblood" is not sufficient to have everything your own way, even in Dynastic society where the state religion hypes up the Dragonblooded as living exemplars of all that is right and good.

I mean, even if you do look at that scenario from a perspective of Dragonblooded power being totally supreme... most of the Dragonbloods are in the Great Houses. That's where their power is (mostly, not entirely) concentrated. If I step away from that by marrying into a Patrician house, I am still an Exalt, but I've distanced myself from all the other Exalts, and the halls of power that they control. The idea that this suggests a loss of status really should not be such an out there notion.
 
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Standard caveats vis-a-vis mechanics are an abstraction, the map is not the territory, but as Revlid once pointed out, an Int 2 Bureaucracy 2 (Trade 1) DB could fairly accurately be described as unexceptional, yes? Average intellect, basic professional training, some specific focus on trade. But if they have even a Bureaucracy Excellency, the absolute bog-basic ground floor of magical skill that simply represents a known capacity to derive flashes of brilliance from their heroic nature on a semi-consistent basis, then their dicepool for setting up a trading venture spikes to 8, and that rapidly closes on if not equals "smartest mortal in the Imperial City with notable management expertise" territory.
Very broadly, as we discussed on Discord just before you informed me of your intentions to dunk on me for cheap likes (really, it's more honourable. It's like a declaration of war), I agree with most of the sentiment in this post. I do have an issue though.

Why the fuck does an Intelligence 2, Bureaucracy 2 Dragon-Blood have a Bureaucracy excellency?

come on

invest 5 dots or don't at all

jesus christ you make me sick

(actually it's a semi-serious question, because i don't think most dragon-blooded will have an excellency for things that are not their main focus or at least part of their primary portfolio, but this is reaching the point where the discussion is veering so far into a merging of mechanics and lore that it's becoming untenable on my own premises lol)
 
Standard caveats vis-a-vis mechanics are an abstraction, the map is not the territory, but as Revlid once pointed out, an Int 2 Bureaucracy 2 (Trade 1) DB could fairly accurately be described as unexceptional, yes? Average intellect, basic professional training, some specific focus on trade. But if they have even a Bureaucracy Excellency, the absolute bog-basic ground floor of magical skill that simply represents a known capacity to derive flashes of brilliance from their heroic nature on a semi-consistent basis, then their dicepool for setting up a trading venture spikes to 8, and that rapidly closes on if not equals "smartest mortal in the Imperial City with notable management expertise" territory.

I think the caveat really matters here, because the response is that the game's representation of "skill" (dots) and "magical skill" (excellency and charms) as orthogonal is awkward and in tension with its explanation of most splats' charms (Sidereals, Infernals, and Alchemicals excepted).

That representation works OK for the purposes of the game - it allows your 2/2/1+excellency guy to cheaply autowin basic bureaucracy challenges (and thus feel cool) while also making his sheet more visibly distinct from the actual Bureaucracy Guy in the circle.

But if you inserted yourself into the world, I don't think the 2/2/1 guy would look that different from the 4/4 mortal when doing Bureaucracy Stuff.

edit: cross-posted with Manus, with whom I more or less agree
 
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invest 5 dots or don't at all

That sort of thinking has, in my admittedly more limited experience, been the source of much skewing of setting perceptions. When 13/11 dice (depending on edition) before magic is the "baseline" level of competence, the fact that 2 dots is average/professional quickly becomes obscured. I have seen people honestly say that with "only" 15 dice to hit in melee but no combat charms (to be purchased later) that they would need to hide behind the rest of the circle when combat started.

I know the 3E core says you can take 5s, but if no one takes the effort to show how amazing they are then they just become cheap and mortals with 4/5 dice become mechanical chafe and any sample character who didn't have fives and perfects became unoptimized trash.
 
But if you inserted yourself into the world, I don't think the 2/2/1 guy would look that different from the 4/4 mortal when doing Bureaucracy Stuff.

edit: cross-posted with Manus, with whom I more or less agree
I think you're missing the point: it's not that a 2/2/1 db with an relevant excellency would be seen as unexceptional. It's that a 2/2/1 Db without an excellency or charms would be seen as unexceptional in that field, but as soon as they have the excellency that's no longer true.
 
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(actually it's a semi-serious question, because i don't think most dragon-blooded will have an excellency for things that are not their main focus or at least part of their primary portfolio, but this is reaching the point where the discussion is veering so far into a merging of mechanics and lore that it's becoming untenable on my own premises lol)
Mainly because that's not a belief I share. Again, an Excellency is the absolute bog-basic ground floor of magical investment, to the point that many games handed them out for free for any trait you had a modicum of investment in, a practice that 3e seems to have adopted as well by giving Solars free Excellencies for any Caste/Favoured ability or anywhere you buy at least one Charm, and handing out a limited number of free excellencies to Dragonbloods as well. My perspective is that I think most Dragonblooded will not have multiple Charms for things that are not at least related to their main focus, but just an excellency is sufficiently basic and low-investment that I can see a Dragonblood picking it up just because if they're stuck doing paperwork they might as well be good at it.
But if you inserted yourself into the world, I don't think the 2/2/1 guy would look that different from the 4/4 mortal when doing Bureaucracy Stuff.
Well, yes, that's rather the point. When a 2/2/1 Dragonblood with as little as an excellency can match a 4/4 mortal, the deck is rather stacked against that mortal's hopes of standing out, because "aspires to the lofty heights of matching an unexceptional plodder of a Dragonblood" doesn't exactly make you sound impressive.
 
Very broadly, as we discussed on Discord just before you informed me of your intentions to dunk on me for cheap likes (really, it's more honourable. It's like a declaration of war), I agree with most of the sentiment in this post. I do have an issue though.

Why the fuck does an Intelligence 2, Bureaucracy 2 Dragon-Blood have a Bureaucracy excellency?

come on

invest 5 dots or don't at all

jesus christ you make me sick

(actually it's a semi-serious question, because i don't think most dragon-blooded will have an excellency for things that are not their main focus or at least part of their primary portfolio, but this is reaching the point where the discussion is veering so far into a merging of mechanics and lore that it's becoming untenable on my own premises lol)
Agreed.

Let's make it simple and count EXP.

Ability 0-2 (Not Aspect or Favored): 3+2 EXP
Specialty 0-1: 3 EXP
Charm (Not Aspect or Favored): 12 EXP

Ability 0-4 (Favored): 3+1+3+5=12 EXP
Specialty 0-2: 6 EXP

The Dragon-Blooded Dabbler example costs 20 EXP to get his expertise, of 5 base, 8 with excellence. With 12 EXP being the charm.
The Bureaucrat Patritian costs 18 EXP to get 8 at all times, even with merely 2 points in the relevant Attribute, same as the Dragon-Blooded guy.

It's Not Cost-Effective to invest a couple of dots and a specialty into a random ability, to then use a charm to try and match a specialist.

As a rule of thumb, an Excellency is something you get either to become truly superhuman, or something you get to shore up a vitally important ability use.
Or as a prerequisite for other charms - but then why aren't you raising Ability as well?
 
Mainly because that's not a belief I share. Again, an Excellency is the absolute bog-basic ground floor of magical investment, to the point that many games handed them out for free for any trait you had a modicum of investment in, a practice that 3e seems to have adopted as well by giving Solars free Excellencies for any Caste/Favoured ability or anywhere you buy at least one Charm, and handing out a limited number of free excellencies to Dragonbloods as well. My perspective is that I think most Dragonblooded will not have multiple Charms for things that are not at least related to their main focus, but just an excellency is sufficiently basic and low-investment that I can see a Dragonblood picking it up just because if they're stuck doing paperwork they might as well be good at it.

A charm is what, 10 xp?

That's about the same amount of xp as it takes to go from 2 dots to 4. Now xp is inherently abstract but it does suggest that charm learning is not trivial, which is backed up by how charms have significant training times in various Exalted iterations.

If you were willing to expend such a significant time and effort to learn to git gud at bureaucracy you'd probably have way more of a pool than 5 dots. Because you're willing to spend a significant amount of effort and time becoming better at the skill and your charms reflect that.
 
I think you're missing the point: it's not that a 2/2/1 db with an relevant excellency would be seen as unexceptional. It's that a 2/2/1 Db without an excellency or charms would be seen as unexceptional in that field, but as soon as they have the excellency that's no longer true.

Well, yes, that's rather the point. When a 2/2/1 Dragonblood with as little as an excellency can match a 4/4 mortal, the deck is rather stacked against that mortal's hopes of standing out, because "aspires to the lofty heights of matching an unexceptional plodder of a Dragonblood" doesn't exactly make you sound impressive.

It's like neither of you read what I said?

The game represents "I have 2/2/1 and an excellency" as a distinct character sheet from "I have 2/5/1", yes. And that representation works OK for most game purposes. But that representation is in tension with what the game wants charms to be, and trying to reason from it runs headlong into the caveat you tried to wave away in your post.

To be more specific: you are attempting a sleight-of-hand in which you establish that the 2/2/1 DB is just some unexceptional plodder - OK - and then give him an excellency, and pretend this leaves him as a plodder, because hey the excellency is entry-level and only costs a single charm purchase. But actually just from the name it is clear that "having the excellency" makes you, y'know, excellent.
 
A charm is what, 10 xp?

That's about the same amount of xp as it takes to go from 2 dots to 4. Now xp is inherently abstract but it does suggest that charm learning is not trivial, which is backed up by how charms have significant training times in various Exalted iterations.

If you were willing to expend such a significant time and effort to learn to git gud at bureaucracy you'd probably have way more of a pool than 5 dots. Because you're willing to spend a significant amount of effort and time becoming better at the skill and your charms reflect that.
It's about the same XP as going from 2 dots to 4, yes. It also gives more than double the utility, doesn't involve the tedious process of raising Attributes, and no, Charms do not have significant training times. They are often one of the fastest things you can learn. An Excellency can be learned in two days flat, which is less than raising Bureaucracy from 2 to 3 even if it's Favoured.
To be more specific: you are attempting a sleight-of-hand in which you establish that the 2/2/1 DB is just some unexceptional plodder - OK - and then give him an excellency, and pretend this leaves him as a plodder, because hey the excellency is entry-level and only costs a single charm purchase. But actually just from the name it is clear that "having the excellency" makes you, y'know, excellent.
I did read what you wrote, Kuci; I flatly disagree with it, because... well, yes, I believe that does leave them a plodder. Charms are expressions of Exalted skill, and having just an Excellency is the least possible expression of that. I assign zero weight to the name. This is Exalted. Flowery, pompous names for everything is par for the course.
 
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You don't even need an Excellency at that level, though, would you? Your 2/2/1 guy with an excellency could just as easily be a 2/2/1 guy who stunted really well, unless he's regularly doing bureaucracy tasks that are narratively significant enough to be rolling for; in which case, why isn't he investing in more bureaucracy?

Or, given that he's a DB, investing in a Retainer who can do all the Bureaucracy stuff for him?

Not all NPC's do either lol
Do NPCs even use xp? I can't remember.
 
Does anybody have a system for changing ability dots into attribute dots in character creation? Using bonus point equivalencies is eh because of how non-granular it would be, but I can't think of a better way? Like how many atttribute dots would be fine for 10 ability dots?
Could I like, get an answer to this? Because I'd like some input before I run out of time.
 
Could I like, get an answer to this? Because I'd like some input before I run out of time.
I'd say it would depend on how many skill points you're starting with, whether you get Charms, and whether those Charms are skill or attribute based.

To be slightly more helpful, if you're going to be transferring in bulk numbers like 10 dots, then I'd maybe give a more bulk number of Attribute dots rather than a specific ratio. Like you give up 10 skill dots, and in exchange you get +1 or +2 attribute dot(s) to each Arena.
 
It's like neither of you read what I said?

The game represents "I have 2/2/1 and an excellency" as a distinct character sheet from "I have 2/5/1", yes. And that representation works OK for most game purposes. But that representation is in tension with what the game wants charms to be, and trying to reason from it runs headlong into the caveat you tried to wave away in your post.

To be more specific: you are attempting a sleight-of-hand in which you establish that the 2/2/1 DB is just some unexceptional plodder - OK - and then give him an excellency, and pretend this leaves him as a plodder, because hey the excellency is entry-level and only costs a single charm purchase. But actually just from the name it is clear that "having the excellency" makes you, y'know, excellent.
i think the issue is exceptional is all in regards to what you're comparing them too. In a land of 1 year olds I'm a exceptional sprinter. Compared to Usain Bolt I'm not. The described DB 2/2/1 bureaucrat+excellency unexceptional compared to what a focused DB can do. After all, in the Realm there are going to be dedicated bureaucrats with at least 3/3/1 or higher with multiple charms, never mind truly remarkable ones that have even higher stats. Compared to them the 2/2/1 and the 4/4 can both be said to be unexceptional. That's the core of Imrix's argument: that even exceptional mortals are simply on the level of unexceptional DB's (which isn't something alien to the gameline, even outside of just mechanics).

That said, the other issue is that you're completely misreading what I said. I said the 2/2/1 without charms would be unexceptional but when given an excellency that this is no longer the case. It's right there in the text you quoted. So why are you claiming I said the opposite?
 
If I was hiring for an administrative position and my choices were 4/4 mortal and 2/2/1 Excellency, Dragon-Blooded, I'd give to role to the mortal.
Why?
Because 8 dice for a mortal is a good indicator of their aptitudes and we can make assumptions about their temperament.
The Dragon-Blooded can match them at the job but, will they want to? They presumably have attributes and abilities with more than 2 dots in with a much greater say in who they are, how they roll and what kind of baggage they'll bring to my door.
 
That depends entirely on where. In the realm hiring a mortal over a dragon blood wpuld be a deep insult to the dragon blood I imagine.
 
Very broadly, as we discussed on Discord just before you informed me of your intentions to dunk on me for cheap likes (really, it's more honourable. It's like a declaration of war), I agree with most of the sentiment in this post. I do have an issue though.

Why the fuck does an Intelligence 2, Bureaucracy 2 Dragon-Blood have a Bureaucracy excellency?

come on

invest 5 dots or don't at all

jesus christ you make me sick

(actually it's a semi-serious question, because i don't think most dragon-blooded will have an excellency for things that are not their main focus or at least part of their primary portfolio, but this is reaching the point where the discussion is veering so far into a merging of mechanics and lore that it's becoming untenable on my own premises lol)
So I think this ties into your original statement a bit? Like for some dragonblooded they might not just get bureaucracy and so it might be hard (though less hard on avg than a mortal with similar training) to raise their stats in it. Presumably they raise it in the same way as everyone else and so aptitudes do come into play.

The question then becomes if the same thing happens with excellencies. I've always sort of assumed that everyone had the same aptitude for charms (minus favored) because they came from the exaltation, but I could see others thinking differently
 
I'd say it would depend on how many skill points you're starting with, whether you get Charms, and whether those Charms are skill or attribute based.
Standard 2.5e solar character creation, so like 28 dots of abilities total, and I only have spots for 18, charm are of course Solar, so ability based, but I just dumped most of them in a favored ability (resistance) so they're a non-issue.
To be slightly more helpful, if you're going to be transferring in bulk numbers like 10 dots, then I'd maybe give a more bulk number of Attribute dots rather than a specific ratio. Like you give up 10 skill dots, and in exchange you get +1 or +2 attribute dot(s) to each Arena.
I was thinking like, 3 or 4 attribute dots total would be right, assigned like bonus dots from Bp? Like, I want to dump them 2 in physicals, 2 in mental, that would work, and...probably be balanced-ish? I mean, I'm building a Twilight with 0 dots in all 5 caste abilities, so she's a horribly unoptimal character already, so w/e I guess, what's a few more sacrifices.
 
If you are in a position to hire a DB, and some backroom deal with the families involved hasn't made the hiring process a formality, you probably have powerful backers. Or the DB is slumming something fierce.
 
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