General Exalted Thread

[Lioness]

I've previously okayed links in signatures to Holden's Patreon.
I can't promise there won't be a crackdown on this if there are orders from above, but I'm not going to fault people for wanting to promote their work or support their creative endeavours. It's just really disapointing that this has come after all the shit that's happened.

 

[veekie]

It's also not a free vector for people to advertise their self-publishing career after they've been locked out of the official community by having someone else slip their work in under the door.

From what I understand, holden wanted more money than he signed a contract because he felt cheated, so he sat on various things and drug out 3e for a good long while, to the point where the new devs had to rewrite What Fire Had Wrought. After he got fired, he dropped huge twitter rants where he shit on OPP and aired all his dirty laundry, killing his chances of being hired by pretty much any other publishing company. It's my understanding that he ended up getting banned from RPG.net because he would coach people in how to be disruptive right up until the very limit of what they wouldn't ban people for as long as they were disrupting people he had a grudge against.

Holden is super disruptive, and he delights in making a nuisance of himself if he thinks he's in the right.

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Sounds like a base of Kimbery charms if theres so much vitriol...

 

[Eldagusto]

Its so perfectly on-brand for Holden to write something no one asked for, referencing a book from more than ten years ago, which no one was even all that interested in pursuing at the time because there were better things on the table. He's literally offering up table scraps for forgiveness.

I wonder if he's still out there being performatively-woke on Twitter because his best friend got outted as a sex pest.

Reminder, John Morke is the reason why Exalted has so few women writing for the books now, when previously they were some of the most pronounced voices of the line during both Editions. And Holden thinks that's worth defending.

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I know what you mean but actually if look at the authors of the books there seem to be more women now it seems.

 

[Chehrazad]

Christ how did Holden accidentally make a rules-moderate Exalted system entirely as a random throwaway that works surprisingly well

What even is this shit

I mean it's really dumb and has some cringeworthy parts but it wouldn't be oWoD without those so I'm not even going to knock him for that

This is amazing

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cant sleep

holden will find me and force me to play shitty wod exalted crossovers

mj made me do this

The Danneskiold Family

The house of Danneskiold is not in hiding. Not the least. An open family of Danish nobility since the 17th century, the Danneskiolds are openly a family of philanthropists and prominent businessmen from a small Nordic country. Having never kept its strong ties to the Danish crown secret, the family also has an inner side; dragons twine in the swan-emblazoned heraldry of Danneskiold.

Predominantly Water-aspected and Air-aspected, the house of Danneskiold suffered irrecoverable losses in the first half of the 19th century as the dual kingdom, Denmark-Norway was dragged into wars with the great powers of Europe. Whole branches of the family were wiped out, and today only a single branch survives, its recovery and reinvention of itself incredible. Miraculous, even. To anyone with the knowledge to unite the supernatural history of Danneskiold and that of the front-facing "Danneskiold-Samsøe" a strange picture quickly forms. From where did the family receive its sudden influx of prosperity and money? How did the family cut its ties and form new ones so efficiently? How did whole eradicated lines of Dragon-Touched replenish seemingly overnight? The answer lies in even older ties than those of aristocracy to royalty.

In the furious wars between Daedalans and the Traditions, the family of Danneskiold, or what would become it, had been instrumental in ensuring that the Kingdom of Denmark-Norway would be a safe haven for fleeing Daedalans, their science enriching the Danish court and bringing great wealth. The right favours were pulled in, the proper channels were followed and the now-dominant Technocratic Union were happy to add the inherited wealth and influence of the house of Danneskiold to its coffers as the Syndicate welcomed it as an old friend. Now the old money of Danneskiold sit in penthouses with their companions in the Syndicate. They drink in shared victory, for the entire north is their economic oyster. Victory tastes like wine, red like blood.

The Danneskiolds formally control a single Dragon Nest. A tiny island not far from the western coast of Jutland, the waters of the Baltic Sea lap at it and seemingly threaten to drown it, but the island remains afloat. It does not show up on any map of Denmark, and that suits the Danneskiolds well, for on the isle is the building in which the children of the Danneskiold family are raised and taught. It is an old cavalry school, built in the era of the Great Northern War and since improved and beautified to standards closer to a tiny palace. However, unofficially, the Danneskiolds also hold access to many nodes within both mainland and insular Denmark, northern Germany, Sweden and Norway, adding up to potentially up to thirty such Dragon Nests, although only the insular Dragon Nest of their home is used for anything but smug comparison with other Terrestrial houses.

 

[Eldagusto]

It's also not a free vector for people to advertise their self-publishing career after they've been locked out of the official community by having someone else slip their work in under the door.

From what I understand, holden wanted more money than he signed a contract because he felt cheated, so he sat on various things and drug out 3e for a good long while, to the point where the new devs had to rewrite What Fire Had Wrought. After he got fired, he dropped huge twitter rants where he shit on OPP and aired all his dirty laundry, killing his chances of being hired by pretty much any other publishing company. It's my understanding that he ended up getting banned from RPG.net because he would coach people in how to be disruptive right up until the very limit of what they wouldn't ban people for as long as they were disrupting people he had a grudge against.

Holden is super disruptive, and he delights in making a nuisance of himself if he thinks he's in the right.

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Excuse me slipped under the door? It's my house so I walked through the damn door and placed it on the table because it's something people would be interested in seeing and it's free. Holden has issues, but he is a damn good writer, and in my opinion his mechanics are the reason why WtA20 and CtD20 were the best of the 20 books. It's only hurting the fans to try to hide quality material, especially one we didn't think we were ever going to get after Holden got fired.

Should Vance not do Swaying Grass Dance Style in Lunars now because it was a Holden style?

I mean... if your argument is that OPP is cutting it's own nose off to spite it's face, then... okay? they can do that, it's their forum. Holden's removal from them was a big messy thing. It shouldn't be any kind of surprise that they don't want him as a topic on their forums.

If I have a messy break up where my Ex stole my xbox and held it hostage because they think I wasn't paying enough attention to them, then they deleted all my achievements when I threatened to call the cops, and they keep talking shit about me on social media a year later, I'm fully in my rights to shut down conversations that come up with them as a topic when they happen at my house while the people who are visiting are eating my food and using my internet, even if i was a shit boyfriend.

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Sure thy have the right to do that but they also have a responsibility of Transparency. You don't secretly vanish a thread and not tell anyone why.

Pretty sure this very forum puts no limitations at all on discussing the work of banned users.

The very small forum I moderate doesn't either, and I can't imagine any reason why it should.

PS: Since someone brought up Morke's harassment...has OPP ever acknowledged/apologised for what he did? Or what Matt McFarland did?

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I don't think so because I had to dig real hard to find out what happened.

 

[Unbanshee]

You don't secretly vanish a thread and not tell anyone why.

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Oh maaaaaan, if that's what you think then like... so much of the white wolf/onyx path forum moderation history disagrees with you.

Like... so many threads that were critical of holden and morke and the 3e delays and leaks got black-bagged when he was working there.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think so because I had to dig real hard to find out what happened.

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Awful.

All the same, I suspect linking to John Smith's most recent fanfic and trying to start discussion of it would cause the mods to take close attention.

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But would linking to farmerbob's latest fic have the same result?

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Who and who?

 

[notanautomaton]

Awful.




Who and who?

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John Smith wrote a PMMM quest which got him banned, as it was considered too horrible and edgy. Farmerbob also got banned, but for trying to get r/TheDonald to invade SV.

 

[Salty]

Can't we all get beyond Horke and Molden Thunderdome?

 

[Kalzky]

I just really think the Exalted/OWOD book is cool. I'm not touching who wrote it with a ten foot pole.

 

[Deations]

Can't we all get beyond Horke and Molden Thunderdome?

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I think people will continue to bring them up because it's easy to conflate criticism of their behavior with criticism of a gameline they happened to have worked on.

I mean, would anyone want to attempt to argue that 2E is somehow more mechanically refined than 3E? It's possible, but it's hard and you'll be met with a lot of opposition. It's much easier to criticize the personalities involved, attempting to push the idea that supporting a gameline demands that one feel unconditional positive regard to whoever happens to be writing it at the time.

It's also why Holden and Morke are still brought up over Vance and Minton. Because the latter two aren't such low-hanging fruit for critiques that insist that the developers must be defended or morally justified before one is permitted to like the things they are currently or formerly affiliated with.

 

[Cosar]

I think people will continue to bring them up because it's easy to conflate criticism of their behavior with criticism of a gameline they happened to have worked on.

I mean, would anyone want to attempt to argue that 2E is somehow more mechanically refined than 3E? It's possible, but it's hard and you'll be met with a lot of opposition. It's much easier to criticize the personalities involved, attempting to push the idea that supporting a gameline demands that one feel unconditional positive regard to whoever happens to be writing it at the time.

It's also why Holden and Morke are still brought up over Vance and Minton. Because the latter two aren't such low-hanging fruit for critiques that insist that the developers must be defended or morally justified before one is permitted to like the things they are currently or formerly affiliated with.

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The entire reason people are talking about him is that someone brought up an outside product he wrote and then wondered why the threads made on the official forum about it were removed. Unless you're suggesting that Eldagusto is some sort of double agent I'm not sure how you're concluding that people are bringing up Holden to attack third edition.

 

[Unbanshee]

I think people will continue to bring them up because it's easy to conflate criticism of their behavior with criticism of a gameline they happened to have worked on.

I mean, would anyone want to attempt to argue that 2E is somehow more mechanically refined than 3E? It's possible, but it's hard and you'll be met with a lot of opposition. It's much easier to criticize the personalities involved, attempting to push the idea that supporting a gameline demands that one feel unconditional positive regard to whoever happens to be writing it at the time.

It's also why Holden and Morke are still brought up over Vance and Minton. Because the latter two aren't such low-hanging fruit for critiques that insist that the developers must be defended or morally justified before one is permitted to like the things they are currently or formerly affiliated with.

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So your Hot Take is that we are 2e grongnards that hate 3e but since we can't complain about 3e mechanics and be taken seriously, we complain about the bad behavior of previous devs who aren't involved any longer?

 

[Deations]

Unless you're suggesting that Eldagusto is some sort of double agent I'm not sure how you're concluding that people are bringing up Holden to attack third edition.

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No, not that. It's more just my feeling on why I think Holden and Morke keep getting brought up regardless of the context. This situation right now is an exception to a noticeable pattern, as at least now one of them is being mentioned for something that is actually relevant to Exalted since the drama over them getting fired, if only unofficially.

Either way I'm pretty sure they'll be brought up again regardless

So your Hot Take is that we are 2e grongnards that hate 3e but since we can't complain about 3e mechanics and be taken seriously, we complain about the bad behavior of previous devs who aren't involved any longer?

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No. But it is true that some people, here and elsewhere, have in the past used criticism of the devs' behavior on social media as a substitute for criticism of the line. It's not like everyone here does this, and it's not like you yourself do this so you don't have to feel attacked if you don't want to be.

It is however, one of the reasons why I think threads will continue to bring discussion back to Holden and Morke, regardless of their involvement or lack thereof with the line in the future.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

I think Holden and Morke are so heavily discussed for basically the same reason that farmerbob, Matt McFarland, and John Smith came up in this little subthread.

Bad behaviour gets people talking. It sticks in people's minds. They dwell upon it, and they bring it up whenever it's even moderately relevant.

 

[Deations]

I think Holden and Morke are so heavily discussed for basically the same reason that farmerbob, Matt McFarland, and John Smith came up in this little subthread.

Bad behaviour gets people talking. It sticks in people's minds. They dwell upon it, and they bring it up whenever it's even moderately relevant.

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I just never wanted to care about them beyond enjoying what they write. Beyond that, I don't think anyone else but Morke and Holden themselves are obliged to take responsibility for their actions, though criticizing the developers, and only them, for the things they themselves did is also more than fine.

 

[Cosar]

I think Holden and Morke are so heavily discussed for basically the same reason that farmerbob, Matt McFarland, and John Smith came up in this little subthread.

Bad behaviour gets people talking. It sticks in people's minds. They dwell upon it, and they bring it up whenever it's even moderately relevant.

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I think there's also just the fact that they were/are big names in Exalted. They had a big part the latter part of 2ed and a huge part of 3ed core. There's a new team in charge, but it hasn't been that long comparatively.

I just never wanted to care about them beyond enjoying what they write. Beyond that, I don't think anyone else but Morke and Holden themselves are obliged to take responsibility for them or their actions, though criticizing the developers, and only them, for the things they themselves did is also more than fine.

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Welcome to humanity, where there isn't a wall that seperates a creator from what they create. Especially when they seem to go out of their way to make sure that's not the case.

 

[Eldagusto]

So your Hot Take is that we are 2e grongnards that hate 3e but since we can't complain about 3e mechanics and be taken seriously, we complain about the bad behavior of previous devs who aren't involved any longer?

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I don't get that take. From my point of you have a chip on your shoulder about Holden, probably argued with him at some point in the various forums. And may be justified. And I have no idea what your Exalted Preferences are, I'm assuming most people still engaged enough to post about Exalted Here are more likely to be Interested in Third ed. But you do seem confused. You do seem agitated. And I think with that combination your flailing may be doomed to strike other posters in the snozz, metaphorically of course.

 

[Deations]

Welcome to humanity, where there isn't a wall that seperates a creator from what they create. Especially when they seem to go out of their way to make sure that's not the case.

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Sure, but I'm still not thrilled about it. I'm not Holden's mother and liking what he wrote doesn't make me his mother either.

I don't get that take. From my point of you have a chip on your shoulder about Holden, probably argued with him at some point in the various forums. And may be justified. And I have no idea what your Exalted Preferences are, I'm assuming most people still engaged enough to post about Exalted Here are more likely to be Interested in Third ed. But you do seem confused. You do seem agitated. And I think with that combination your flailing may be doomed to strike other posters in the snozz, metaphorically of course.

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He's criticizing me, not you. It's okay

 

[Sucal]

So your Hot Take is that we are 2e grongnards that hate 3e but since we can't complain about 3e mechanics and be taken seriously, we complain about the bad behavior of previous devs who aren't involved any longer?

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...

About 50% of this thread since the first leak was complaining about 3e mechanics, to the point where we have a charm that is barely allowed to be mentioned, let alone debated. I mean fuck, when I can be bothered arguing about it, I consider it the best possible mortal game, but crappy for anything involving solar charms or crafting

 

[Deations]

...

About 50% of this thread since the first leak was complaining about 3e mechanics, to the point where we have a charm that is barely allowed to be mentioned, let alone debated. I mean fuck, when I can be bothered arguing about it, I consider it the best possible mortal game, but crappy for anything involving solar charms or crafting

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Man I'd still take the Solar Charmset in 3E over 2E and 1E, if only because only one edition addressed the issues brought on by repeat perfect defense spams.

 

[Unbanshee]

I don't get that take. From my point of you have a chip on your shoulder about Holden, probably argued with him at some point in the various forums. And may be justified. And I have no idea what your Exalted Preferences are, I'm assuming most people still engaged enough to post about Exalted Here are more likely to be Interested in Third ed. But you do seem confused. You do seem agitated. And I think with that combination your flailing may be doomed to strike other posters in the snozz, metaphorically of course.

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Honestly? I'm just moderately offended at his wide eyed indignation on twitter because your threads giving him air time on the OPP forums got deleted. "The pettiness never fails to astonish" he says, as he suggests that golly gee wiz he's only trying to drum up support for their other properties and look over there at this other person with worse skeletons in his closet but he can still post unlike meeeeeee.

Holden made his own bed with his behavior, and now he's trying to act like it was some heinous offense for OPP to delete the threads. It's wildly disingenuous.

...

About 50% of this thread since the first leak was complaining about 3e mechanics, to the point where we have a charm that is barely allowed to be mentioned, let alone debated. I mean fuck, when I can be bothered arguing about it, I consider it the best possible mortal game, but crappy for anything involving solar charms or crafting

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Yeah but those are actual mechanical complaints, not "complaints about holden/morke's behavior that we use in place of mechanical complaints". We've never been shy about complaining about the actual bones of the 3e system, which is why i found the suggestion that we are actually complaining about holden/morke's behavior as a smoke screen because we have an irrational hate-on for 3e so ludicrous.

Honestly in my experience, these days everyone plays their own franken-version of 2.5 with some things stolen from 3e that they like when they play a non-3e game.

 

[Deations]

Honestly? I'm just moderately offended at his wide eyed indignation on twitter because your threads giving him air time on the OPP forums got deleted. "The pettiness never fails to astonish" he says, as he suggests that golly gee wiz he's only trying to drum up support for their other properties and look over there at this other person with worse skeletons in his closet but he can still post unlike meeeeeee.

Holden made his own bed with his behavior, and now he's trying to act like it was some heinous offense for OPP to delete the threads. It's wildly disingenuous.

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His behavior in this case was being critical of Rich Thomas. If he was less willing to air that out, then yes, being friends with a sex pest would not be an issue given the reasons why McFarland was demodded and banned from rpg.net. A probable rapist is welcome while Holden is not even permitted even in a tangential sense, even when it provides them a net benefit at no cost. That's a little weird, that's a little petty, and that's worth commenting on given other websites that hate Holden are able to putter along just fine.

Yeah but those are actual mechanical complaints, not "complaints about holden/morke's behavior that we use in place of mechanical complaints". We've never been shy about complaining about the actual bones of the 3e system, which is why i found the suggestion that we are actually complaining about holden/morke's behavior as a smoke screen because we have an irrational hate-on for 3e so ludicrous.

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Who is this we? Of course people with mechanical complaints are going to do more than complain about Holden. It doesn't change the fact that I've noticed people do this and it bugged the hell out of me.

Honestly in my experience, these days everyone plays their own franken-version of 2.5 with some things stolen from 3e that they like when they play a non-3e game.

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If sales on the core and Arms are any indicator, as well as the Dragonblooded KS, most people really do seem to just play 3E.

I mean, they could buy the core just for the hell of it but I doubt anyone would buy an equipment supplement only usable for 3E in such numbers if the edition really were such a nonstarter.

 

[Cosar]

Sure, but I'm still not thrilled about it. I'm not Holden's mother and liking what he wrote doesn't make me his mother either.

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Good thing that's not what that type of argument is getting at. Though it certainly must be easier suggesting that those who disagree with you are saying that you have to take serious personal responsibility for creators you enjoy rather than engaging with their arguments.

 

[Eldagusto]

...

About 50% of this thread since the first leak was complaining about 3e mechanics, to the point where we have a charm that is barely allowed to be mentioned, let alone debated. I mean fuck, when I can be bothered arguing about it, I consider it the best possible mortal game, but crappy for anything involving solar charms or crafting

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Was the charm?!