Does anyone have any guides or references for writing balanced homebrew, or what is and isn't a balanced charm?

NEVER:
- touch the dice cap or give uncapped bonus successes.
- make transperfect effects, such as "this just happens, you can't defend" or "this happens even if you defend".
- write open-ended numerical caps, such as "you hit everything you can see" or "your number of attacks is equal to your number of limbs".
- write remote-activation effects that allow risk-free behaviour, such as "your city gets bombed from orbit, you don't know who did it and even if you did I could be anywhere in Creation right now, fuck you".
- give perfect defenses more efficiently than the corebook.
- give motes, because this always breaks.

All of the above examples are examples of shit some idiot or other actually wrote and got into a published book. Don't do this.

ALWAYS:
- know what is already effective and why in sets that aren't shit (ie, don't use Scroll of the Monk to balance your charms).
- compare your effect to an existing equivalent (see above), so you can make eyeball comparisons based on already extant effects that do the same thing.
- test your shit in a hostile entity's hands, working to their maximum effectiveness against your players, does this fuck up your game?
- ditch your shit if you run the hostile entity test and it does fuck up your game, this means your shit is fucked, go back to the drawing board.
- have a dice probability table so you know how much messing with dice will mess with the probability of success or failure. Good luck with 3E and its dice tricks.

Doing this will mitigate bad outcomes from your shit. You don't want bad outcomes, so do it.

ASSUME:
- the Eclipse anima power doesn't exist, so you don't have to test how your shit works when combined with every other charm in the entire bloody game.
-
that you will have to do ten times the work if you must allow it to exist, so don't allow it to exist, and yes this also applies to 3E because 3E's whitelist isn't watertight.
- if you make some new capability that doesn't otherwise exist in the game, it's gonna break for sure, so run that hostile entity test until it stops breaking.

This will save you work and TPKs.
 
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I don't think that's the culture of 3E, so much as the culture of this specific space? Holden and Morke are no longer working for the line, so if nothing else it's not really feasible to criticize 3E on the basis of the developer's personalities, unless there's some sort of controversy I'm not aware of with Vance and Minton. If you look at a lot of other spaces for Exalted discussion, such as on /tg/, reddit, OPP's forums, SpaceBattles forums (which I note, is frequented by quite a few of the same posters here but has never reached the same level of vitriol), or the Something Awful forums, you largely won't get the same degree of constant outrage or abusive behavior, from a purely objective perspective.

In my experience, each Exalted subfandom is bad in a unique way. I can see someone burning out in any of them.

I'm here because I actually like this place best.

So you're arguing current devs are irrevocably tainted due to association with this project that you disliked? That's not a very reasonable position, I feel. Have I misinterpreted the point you're trying to make?

...

The only arguments you've put forth in this post are that the former devs were rude to you, and you think they had a bad attitude. I, personally, don't factor in the attitudes of a creator when judging their creation, simply because what I paid for was a book that I received and enjoyed rather than a bunch of twitter posts by Holden or whoever.

I think you're misreading him. He's clearly trying to avoid getting into the details of the criticisms; instead he's talking about why the arguments about them are rehashed endlessly. And I think his explanation of that is sound.

For what it's worth, I do have a partial solution to the repetition; if you find yourself in the same argument over and over, try to compose a definitive post on your position. Summarise the issue as you see it, then rant away. It may or may not convince anyone, but if you're anything like me it'll exorcise your desire to discuss that crap again. And it may have the same effect on your sparring partners.
 
I don't think that's the culture of 3E, so much as the culture of this specific space? Holden and Morke are no longer working for the line, so if nothing else it's not really feasible to criticize 3E on the basis of the developer's personalities, unless there's some sort of controversy I'm not aware of with Vance and Minton. If you look at a lot of other spaces for Exalted discussion, such as on /tg/, reddit, OPP's forums, SpaceBattles forums (which I note, is frequented by quite a few of the same posters here but has never reached the same level of vitriol), or the Something Awful forums, you largely won't get the same degree of constant outrage or abusive behavior, from a purely objective perspective.
eh. you can't just pretend the last several years of delays and poor communication with the fanbase never happened now that holden and Morke are out. The fact is that there was a kickstarter and then there were huge delays and the people in charge at the time just never interacted _well_ with people outside the OPP forums. There were leaks because of the delays, which caused outrage among the fanbase because an unfinished game still in playtesting that they shouldn't have had access to wasn't perfect. The devs reacted understandably to that, but it didn't and couldn't fix the problem, which contributed to a lot of how I feel the fandom's well was poisoned. It got to the point where every flaw in anything Holden or Morke would say would be magnified and dissected and rehashed, while anything good was lost in the noise. Right now I feel that the current devs have a lot of goodwill mostly because Vance is much better at being friendly and they haven't made any mis-steps yet, but i feel that the fandom's knives are still out and they're just waiting for a chance to pounce.

I think this is also common among the fandoms of a lot of current media, because the online fandoms are so interconnected and the creators are so accessible. People think that because they can communicate directly with the writers, that means the writers should be able to have a personal response for them in a timely fashion. If that doesn't happen, it's easy to feel like you're being ignored on purpose, which is easy to interpret as purposeful rudeness.
 
On the note of testing, there is a degree of 'best practice' vs 'Feasibility' that Exalted really suffered from.

Bluntly, 3e was tested behind closed doors with the lead authors (whoever they were) having direct oversight and communication with the testers. There are IRC logs of this somewhere and/or discussions of this happening, though I admit I can't find them myself. Further still, I'm pretty sure most of those testers were friends of those developers and invited in. This immediately created a bias of 'not rocking the boat' as to ensure they maintained access to both the writer and the content.

If you know anything about game testing, having the person who wrote it there to explain how it works is a curse in disguise, because it immediately biases the testing results.

Player reads rules, gets unexpected or bad result. Ask for clarification, gets clarification, does not make the same mistake- and the actual rules text which caused the mistake either does not get updated or is only weakly adjusted to account for the error. Further exacerbating this are lessons learned in 2e by the playerbase. 2e Combos were not meant to run every action of the game, but as decisive, conflict-defining moves. In practice by mechanics, you were burning at least 1wp an action keeping your PD up. The designer's intent failed in the face of how the players played the game.

Or put more simply "If everyone's using it wrong, are you the designer really right?"

What should have happened is that the players should have reported their experiences, said 'this is what happened', and then sent those reports to the developers for review. A new revision of the rules would have been pushed back, and then the testing begins anew. This is why most of my critiques of 3e as a game itself are about how it underwrites its mechanics in favor of nebulous phrasing.

The other component was the testing size was far too small- and unlike larger studios or video games, who can maintain a certain amount of post-release support with patches or errata, a lot of the 3e issues were either overlooked or underaddressed.

Mind, 2e in development was likely just as guilty of this, without the factor of Holden primarily being a very unprofessional, caustic person in response to criticism, well-reasoned or not. His reactions to the fandom are public record, after all.

Now, should have 3e been an 'open' beta, with publicly available rules? Maybe. It's one of those things where unlike say a videogame, you can more readily control who accesses it, a document is harder to maintain security. I personally would have tried to test feasibility on a public beta/living document approach to Exalted, with the idea that you start with a version 1.0, and increment upwards while never deleting old rules, only hiding them as new ones come into replace them. Is this more labor intensive? Definitely.
 
"Open Beta" is, at best, a marketing tactic. It does not have a positive impact on the development of the game, and if anything only supports the loudest voices at the expense of more nuanced or detailed critique. The Open Betas for D&D 5E and Pathfinder, for example, came to the conclusion that their original plans were what was best for their games, as the people who criticized it were shouted down. Dark Heresy 2E also ended up being far more conservative in terms of its proposed changes as a result of its Open Beta.

This is to say nothing of what happens when the majority of fans react negatively to an Open Beta product like Beast the Primordial. In spite of the backlash, and promises to fix things... the result was not terribly different from the original product and didn't really address people's issues. People were promised a top-down rewrite and, funnily enough, what we got was something that closely resembled the original product just like the earlier examples!

Weirdly enough, if at least a couple of the Ex3 playtesters I knew are to be believed, they did scrap and rewrite their proposed system at least once.

Further, issues like Paranoia Combat and Perfect Spams were identified during 2E's playtesting phase... and then largely ignored for the sake of moving a product.

All of this is still getting away from my original point, which is that criticism of the development process or the personalities of the developers is not the same as criticism of the game itself. The former was never as relevant to me, less so now that the game is actually out and the fact that Holden will have no further role in the line.
 
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I'm inclined to agree that an open beta wouldn't have been good. But the closed beta they had was a pretty bad closed beta.

Part of the problem came from the self-destructive reaction to the leaks, of course.

All of this is still getting away from my original point, which is that criticism of the development process or the personalities of the developers is not the same as criticism of the game itself. The former was never as relevant to me, less so now that the game is actually out and the fact that Holden will have no further role in the line.

I think almost everyone agrees with you about that. But so what?
 
"Open Beta" is, at best, a marketing tactic.

That's correct to a certain extent- perhaps 'beta test' is the wrong phrase, but the point is, the testing pool they used in both exalted editions was too small and too interconnected to provide meaningful insight.

And then you raise the other point that sometimes, what the fans say they want isn't what's actually good. This is why in most video game development cycles, they almost never mention features until the last minute, as to avoid breaking the fanbase. "It's done, what we have is what we have." As opposed to the peter molyneux school of design and media presence, which is 'promise amazing things' and then 'fall short in actual development'.

The authors of anything need to feel safe in defending their work. In terms of a mechanical system though, where a poor phrase, bad decision or ill-conceived notion of balance can impact utility and enjoyment, more openness is in my mind a net positive.

Now here's the thing- when it comes to game design, you can't really separate Author from Work, because the Author is the one who designed the systems at least in part and their objective was to create a system of comprehensible rules and mechanics to govern in-game interaction. If you give someone a wonderful story but a bad game, that's a failing and deserves critique- not vitrolic criticism, critique.
 
I think almost everyone agrees with you about that. But so what?

Nothing much? I just take issue with how people seem, at least to me, to be conflating their issues with the developers with actual critique of the game.

The most I can accept as an argument for the game's failings is that ambiguous language can be an issue for some of the charms, and that they were not aggressive enough in changing some of the aspects of 2E that were annoying. It still is, overall, the most mechanically sound edition of Exalted thus far. I'm aware this is a low bar to clear, so let me go further and say that I believe the combat and social engines are among the best out there when compared to many different systems.
 
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I think it's sort of a fools errand to try and separate the development failings from the systems failings, considering that the developers are basically ascended fans plucked from the forums. They're US. And they sought money from us to even attempt to develop the game in the first place. That creates a greater sense of ownership over every aspect of the game than one might find in a more traditional development cycle.
 
If you look at a lot of other spaces for Exalted discussion, such as on /tg/, reddit, OPP's forums, SpaceBattles forums (which I note, is frequented by quite a few of the same posters here but has never reached the same level of vitriol), or the Something Awful forums, you largely won't get the same degree of constant outrage or abusive behavior, from a purely objective perspective.
Oh yes, known sources of reasonable and thoughtful dialogue, SomethingAwful, rpg.net, /tg/, and the Onyx Path Forums. Places which, respectively:

- Largely have post cycles loudly asking if anyone has actually read any of the books yet, before breathlessly repeating half the fluff wrong since they tangentially heard the memes from some other guy somewhere, because Exalted to them was historically "the bad anime kung-fu sex game White Wolf made," even before kicking out Holden on his ass when he showed up in the attempt to debate the limits of explicit sexual assault with them,
- Placed half of the Onyx Path team on their moderation and shrugged their shoulders at the distinct chilling effect it had on anyone being less than glowing about Ex3's overall direction, even after Holden used his position to imperiously make absurd claims like "we don't give people the bad rules they think they want" to all and sundry,
- Have ongoing general threads more worried about the state of the game's more porny qualities when they are not screeching and circling the wagons because they have convinced themselves that somehow @Shyft (of all people) is the ultimate anti-Ex3 boogeyman haunting their every word ever since someone referenced him in a negative tone once and, having neither met him, read anything he's done or even had any proof he's been present on the boards, readily assumed to a nigh-memetic level he's been the only possible person making posts critical of the game for Years now,
- Is the PR hub of the gameline which is generally regarded as an echo-chamber, seeing as its purpose is to promote and sell the game to its community, not actively Improve on it or sway the direction of its development and they will outright state as much.

I can't say much for either Reddit or Spacebattles, never been a member of either, but this is not a good running tally thus far for "discussion spaces without constant outrage or abusive behavior."

Given that the substance of your criticism in this post seems to be that "Morke and Holden are really mean assholes!" then surely their removal has removed any issues with the game.

The only arguments you've put forth in this post are that the former devs were rude to you, and you think they had a bad attitude. I, personally, don't factor in the attitudes of a creator when judging their creation, simply because what I paid for was a book that I received and enjoyed rather than a bunch of twitter posts by Holden or whoever.
The fact you've straight-up assumed the only reason for my laying into the game as stridently as I do could be the result of some kind of personal slight or vendetta says more about you than it does about me, quite frankly, and twisting what I've said to try characterize me as an unreasonably emotional and hysterical complainer who "can't separate the work from the author like enlightened people do" does you no favors either.

That said, you're welcome to enjoy whatever it is you like and that's not my problem at all. But now you've Made it my problem, since clearly even though my post didn't directly reference a Damn Thing you might've liked in the game properly, you still feel it necessary to leap in and try to justify the book standing on its own merits. Fact is, you and your feelings, that's an irrelevant factor here. Holden and Hatewheel very distinctly made the game they wanted to make, and that reflects in the book itself even without their involvement. Going to bat for the game as though every inch of it does not have their hands on it doesn't make your position seem any more sophisticated or open-minded, because we're not debating some kind of Death of the Author here. Your justifications start and stop with "they made the thing and I liked it."

So take this word of advice, from me to you: Onyx Path will never reward you for loyalty.

So you're arguing current devs are irrevocably tainted due to association with this project that you disliked?
Any new team will be saddled with the design choices of the old team, their decisions, and the mechanical fallout from making the Corebook into what it is now. That's irrevocable facts, the part where if the new Devs are fixing anything now, it will be fixing the things which Holden and Hatewheel left broken in the first place, regardless of whether you personally feel "better than before" is now "good enough" for what the Exalted Kickstarter was sold on being.

The obvious argument here is to say that "hey, its not ALL Holden and Hatewheel's book, because they had an entire writing team!" But that's more of a damning point than one which disproves me. Because if we got this game in this condition, after ALL this fucking ordeal, despite the new Devs active presence as a tempering voice which could have helped take it somewhere better, and they are only now taking it upon themselves to repair what they undoubtedly knew was bad in-practice, it doesn't say Anything positive about the direction they will be going in. Either they didn't know how bad it was and were removed from effecting it, in which case they are ignorant to its flaws, or they passively stood by to watch it all unfold anyway.

That's only way the new Devs are removed from blame here, total non-involvement, because insisting otherwise puts them just as much at fault for allowing Holden and Hatewheel to run hog-wild on the project to begin with. There is no neutral stance here.
 
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I question the wisdom of critiquing other forums for lacking reasonable or thoughtful dialogue, when this is the thread that had a multi-page argument about whether a Solar could or could not break a specific kind of code which was so asinine that the staff had to come in and kill it; the thread which has been so recurringly toxic that our staff made a general post just to inform us of how toxic it was. This very thread is known on all of those boards just mentioned, exactly because it is so toxic. I hold no love for 4chan but consider that when this thread is brought up on /tg/'s Exalted General, @Omicron is the one who gets called out as the cool dude stupid enough to stay here and not engage in these stupid arguments.

Perhaps there is some truth in that.
 
this is the thread that had a multi-page argument about whether a Solar could or could not break a specific kind of code which was so asinine that the staff had to come in and kill it
-takes a deep, calming breath-

I question the wisdom of critiquing other forums for lacking reasonable or thoughtful dialogue, when this is the thread that had a multi-page argument about whether a Solar could or could not break a specific kind of code which was so asinine that the staff had to come in and kill it; the thread which has been so recurringly toxic that our staff made a general post just to inform us of how toxic it was. This very thread is known on all of those boards just mentioned, exactly because it is so toxic. I hold no love for 4chan but consider that when this thread is brought up on /tg/'s Exalted General, @Omicron is the one who gets called out as the cool dude stupid enough to stay here and not engage in these stupid arguments.

Perhaps there is some truth in that.
I don't think that "you can't criticize, you're just as bad/worse" is a useful philosophy, and I don't think that this thread is actually all that toxic[1]​ for something on SV.
The proper conclusion to draw from Dif's post, I think, is that every Exalted community has problems of some sort.

... Also, the argument you mentioned is far from unique in my experience, even on boards with far more strict enforcement of good behavior rules. It's part and parcel of having rules that aren't absolutely, perfectly clear; people had different interpretations of the rules, explained the incredibly obvious way it's supposed to work, were confused/frustrated when people reached opposing conclusions about the incredibly obvious way its supposed to work, tried to explain why they're clearly wrong, and things went downhill from there.

I can't say much for either Reddit or Spacebattles, never been a member of either,
One of the only times I engaged in discussion on /r/exalted, (and I will note preemptively that this position didn't seem especially popular, it's simply something that was very memorable) I was told that a character with more than 9 dice in their dice pool is a sign the player is abusing the system.
Most of the people who would be discussing Exalted on SB are here (the latest thread was started 2 months before this one, has about a tenth of the posts, and has been dormant for the last 3 weeks).

[1] This is intentionally worded to avoid saying the thread is not toxic. Taken away from the culture of SV and/or the internet as a generalized whole, it certainly is toxic and not a place I recommend people come unless they're already on SV or well-blooded on the Internet, but that's more a condemnation of SV's culture than the thread on its own.
 
-takes a deep, calming breath-


I don't think that "you can't criticize, you're just as bad/worse" is a useful philosophy, and I don't think that this thread is actually all that toxic[1]​ for something on SV.

The proper conclusion to draw from Dif's post, I think, is that every Exalted community has problems of some sort.

... Also, the argument you mentioned is far from unique in my experience, even on boards with far more strict enforcement of good behavior rules. It's part and parcel of having rules that aren't absolutely, perfectly clear; people had different interpretations of the rules, explained the incredibly obvious way it's supposed to work, were confused/frustrated when people reached opposing conclusions about the incredibly obvious way its supposed to work, tried to explain why they're clearly wrong, and things went downhill from there.


One of the only times I engaged in discussion on /r/exalted, (and I will note preemptively that this position didn't seem especially popular, it's simply something that was very memorable) I was told that a character with more than 9 dice in their dice pool is a sign the player is abusing the system.
Most of the people who would be discussing Exalted on SB are here (the latest thread was started 2 months before this one, has about a tenth of the posts, and has been dormant for the last 3 weeks).

[1] This is intentionally worded to avoid saying the thread is not toxic. Taken away from the culture of SV and/or the internet as a generalized whole, it certainly is toxic and not a place I recommend people come unless they're already on SV or well-blooded on the Internet, but that's more a condemnation of SV's culture than the thread on its own.

I see things here, though, that I don't see anywhere in SV except some of the News and Politics stuff. I mean, if I'm being honest here.
 
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Here we go again, Sunlit Sands Session #23! Big props as usual to @Aleph for running, the rough session we had last week thankfully stayed in the past as today was much better all around. Solid session with some experimental plot moving forward.

Session 23 log

Prior to the session actually starting, we had a quick discussion regarding pacing and tone, which I'll elaborate on here:

Aleph expressed a concern that the game was too compressed into large downtime chunks with immediate, dense bursts of 'character interaction' between them. This was causing her problems, because she couldn't rightly portray the growing cast of NPCs or effectively convey new plot information.

Now, the reason for my go-go-go-ness lies primarily with my formative Exalted career. Most of the games I was in were very light-weight, beer/pretzels injoke fests. They had no real respect for time, both player and storyteller, and most of them were thinly plotted tracks between fight scenes that rarely meant anything. I as a player was denied agency to do things I wanted to do, which sounds more... negative than I intend, but it influences me greatly.

So with that in mind, I as a player desperately want to play a game that lets me make progressively larger marks on the world, to create enduring structures or perform feats of legend, instead of merely parading through an increasingly elaborate procession of one-off combat encounters that are tennuously focused on a climatic conclusion with the big-bad-de-jour; usually a deathlord or Yozi.

(Note that almost none of those games got to the 'Fight the big bad' step before dying).

In Sunlit Sands, Aleph was unprepared for how committed I was to constant growth and large-scale actions, and expressed the desire to reign that in, focusing on more in-person scenes and character interaction for the immediate future. My concern as I expressed to her was akin to 'in practical terms, I have to wait a real-life week to advance my plot, and I am always under the impression that I will either not get to play, or be forced to confront the reality that the game has died before anything could be accomplished.

That fear motivates me, to a level that is possibly unhealthy for game enjoyment.

It is a credit to Aleph and my... maturity, I suppose, that I'm able to set that fear aside for this session.

Now for the actual session postmortem!

This is Vahti. She is a Flame Duck. There are many Flame Ducks, but only one Vahti. Naturally, Inks's response to hearing 'breakfast in bed' is 'Flirt, and flirt hard.

Sourced from a prior conversation, Vahti's characterization is as follows- "If Maji is the demon on her shoulder going "rule, dominate the peons, be a tiger-princess, crush your foes!", Vahti is basically filling a similar niche of "imp of the perverse urging her on" for Inks' more brazen, flirtacious side. She's also unusually academic for a flame duck; the result of trying to emulate Inks' more cerebral traits (with less success, since Int 5 is harder to mimic than Flirt 7)"

A bit of harmless, character-building fluff in the opening scenes of the session is just what I as a player need to get into the groove, character on and moving.

Now, for context, Inks promised Hinna she would help with her research eight ingame months ago give or take. I completley forgot as a player as did Inks the character, suffice to say Hinna was less than sanguine about it. We invoked Vahti and Pipera both as plot-hook compilers, mostly just to not make the same mistake again.

The anhule silk-harvesting wing is still on the to-do list, but as mentioned, Aleph wanted a character session. Along the way we hashed out a few logistical details, like Inks's expanding staff to include Ajjim as cartographer and permanent resident in the townhouse. Tigerdad and daughter, best roommates.

More seriously, Ajjim can in his own way be the 'hero of another story' with Inks as a patron who breezes in at times. That's part of the beauty of Exalted as a setting and the kind of thing wildly diseparate powers are meant to do.

The best written example, in my opinion, is in fact the introduction of Excessively Righteous Blossom in the 1st edition Autochthonians book- I've linked the relevant passage.

What I'm trying to say here, is that Ajjim's viewpoint can be invoked by the storyteller to underscore the kind of presence an Exalt has on the setting, as well as the kind of impact Inks as a player character has. Like last week, Aleph made it pretty explicit that there are less than ten naturally Appearance 5 characters in Gem. To say nothing of the rarefied heights of Per 5, Int 5, Craft 5 and so on.

So hypothetically, a side-scene with Ajjim describing how Inks impacts his life, how he steps out of his bedroom to see this godking woman working miracles or making breakfast or bathing. That kind of thing is in my opinion critical to really selling Exalted, especially to new players. If you aren't starting as mortal, you need to use the mortals around the players to pin down why being an Exalt means something beyond game mechanics and abstracted powers.

Note that all this Ajjim stuff is just me noodling on about the topic, Aleph hasn't needed to touch on this yet and may never need to, but It's fun to discuss. I also really want the readers of these posts to learn things, tools and tricks to make their games better.

Anyway, having refreshed myself on today's agenda, Inks stopped in to visit Soft Ash, the overseer of her orphanage, and get a status update. Again, Consequences matter, and I think Aleph made the right choice here in choosing to elaborate on a previous event or action, instead of making up a brand new one.

Of the choices offered, I'm leaning mostly towards training the children to have Temperance 4, which is both fantastic and... I admit the main reason I want to do it is because I just want to see what would happen.

Part of the storyteller's job is to offer hints, or direction in the case of players floundering. I couldn't think fo what WAS viable, so I asked for assistance and got it.

Having resolved that, we finally approached Hinna, and got temporarily rebuffed. Remember- I accidentally snubbed this woman for eight months, and she was fairly Passionate about her secret sorcerous experimentation.

But having negotiated her schedule, Inks and Vahti finally have a proper sitdown with Hinna. Now, I admit I was suspicious of Hinna, her passion was frankly unnerving when she was first introduced, but I did not want to assume that she was inherently a Bad Guy, as Aleph generally aims for nuance or complexity in her characters. Exalted as a fandom has a tough time making characters come off as anything but what their magic glows as.

The running theme of the last half of the session is 'Tutorialization'. It's an underutilized concept and something that takes time to learn and master. It's the idea of presenting a situation or scenario with the intent of learning or instructing, as opposed to a 'Live fire' test.

The thing I want to stress here, is that in a bad table/game environment, this kind of thing invites a paranoia response- never go anywhere without a guard, never bring soft dependants like Vahti along, etc. Paranoia is a common thing.

So in this sequence, Aleph tutorialized the idea of 'lingering plotthread consequences' as well as 'Mortal Sorcerers' and implicitly, poison/similar mechanics. Hinna, whom Inks had unfortunately neglected due to previously mentioned reasons, has managed to both drug Inks and her newest squeeze. This is bad. Inks has an awful track record with poisons.
Now, a lot of people are going to call out the whole thing of Inks getting caught out by a poison effect- I could have been more paranoid, trying to assess the wine, but I chose not to. As much as I was supsicious of Hinna both before and during the scene, (infernalists are generally not seen as good people, but Inks is a Demonologist, so why throw stones?)

The funny thing- as the logs indicate, is that when Hinna revealed her sorcerous enlightenment, Inks was actually already going 'yeah I'd be happy to work with you, I just made a mistake."

Allowing people to be entertainingly wrong is fun.

From here we had a bit of experimentation- I could have opted to succumb immediately, but I wanted to see if Inks's pools were up to snuff. Against Toxicity 4 with only 17m left, I had very little chance...

now, I could have cranked to full totemic, generated 6m per action and burned an autosux every poison roll at the chance of keeping out of my incap level. I'd have had to pass at least 4 of the 10 poison intervals to stay ahead of the curve, but I would've been locked at -4 and no Minimum Essence rule to save me.

Also note that this is the first actual Combat roll of the game- we didn't join battle, as there were only two characcters who likely had identical speed traits, and bluntly, Hinna and Inks both are Nerds, with anemic physical stats accordingly.

After hashing out the mechanics and making a few experimental rolls, we both agreed that the more interesting path would be to have Inks succumb and see what Hinna has in store.

With that, the session and this post-mortem concludes!
I've been waiting for shit to pop off in this game.

I did expect the problems to come from the Infernal token though, not the cultist sorceress/Ascended behemoth-godspirit thing.
Either way, killing the lady is not going to win you friends with the local despot; I doubt he's entirely unaware of her proclivities or her nature, regardless of how secret she thinks she's been.

Still, getting jumped like this should attract Consequences.
Probably might want to consider that if you don't specifically take steps, Tatters is going to murder her even if you manage to keep Maji from doing so.
Which will make problems given that you just negotiated something with the despot.

Might wanna consider if she had a hand in the goings-on at El-Galabi.
Given her interests, I would not be surprised if she was, assuming she was here at the time.
Imagine what she could have done with the blood of a genuine Solar.

All this assumes she's not akuma, of course.
Either way, thanks to both you and @Aleph for sharing.
 
I've been waiting for shit to pop off in this game.

I did expect the problems to come from the Infernal token though, not the cultist sorceress/Ascended behemoth-godspirit thing.
Either way, killing the lady is not going to win you friends with the local despot; I doubt he's entirely unaware of her proclivities or her nature, regardless of how secret she thinks she's been.

Still, getting jumped like this should attract Consequences.
Probably might want to consider that if you don't specifically take steps, Tatters is going to murder her even if you manage to keep Maji from doing so.
Which will make problems given that you just negotiated something with the despot.

Might wanna consider if she had a hand in the goings-on at El-Galabi.
Given her interests, I would not be surprised if she was, assuming she was here at the time.
Imagine what she could have done with the blood of a genuine Solar.

All this assumes she's not akuma, of course.
Either way, thanks to both you and @Aleph for sharing.

I think the important thing to understanda bout Exalted as I think both Aleph and I view it, is that Objects are not Agents. The infernal essence token is Dangerous, but it's a tool, a material. Sure it can lead to a plot hook of 'where it came from', but in and of itself does nothing until interacted with. Exalted is a game of people, movers and shakers.

It should be noted that Inks is, by any reasonable metric, still an Inexperienced Solar. (There's some timeline issues I think I'd want to resolve with Aleph), but she hasn't really been challenged on an Exalted level until now.
 
I see things here, though, that I don't see anywhere in SV except some of the News and Politics stuff. I mean, if I'm being honest here.
Without you actually saying what things you're referring to, this could mean just about anything.
That said, there's a reason why that statement has the caveat "for something on SV".
 
The Scarlet Empress returning to reclaim her throne and announcing her impeding nuptials is always fun, but the look on everyone's faces when they find out she's marrying His Divine Lunar Presence Sha'a Oka is utterly priceless.
I thought she was engaged to the Ebon dragon.
Thatsthejoke.jpg
(I.e. take general ideas you like from the metaplot, throw out most of it.)

So the Scarlet Empress is going to marry multiple people at once?
 
man they still blame me personally for paranoia combat.

They don't! Mostly they just call people who do blame you for it complete idiots.

Oh yes, known sources of reasonable and thoughtful dialogue, SomethingAwful, rpg.net, /tg/, and the Onyx Path Forums. Places which, respectively:

- Largely have post cycles loudly asking if anyone has actually read any of the books yet, before breathlessly repeating half the fluff wrong since they tangentially heard the memes from some other guy somewhere, because Exalted to them was historically "the bad anime kung-fu sex game White Wolf made," even before kicking out Holden on his ass when he showed up in the attempt to debate the limits of explicit sexual assault with them,

Dif, I'm not arguing that the places I've mentioned are some sort of enlightened hubs, I'm arguing that it's simply easier to have a constructive conversation there without quite as much hysteria. At the very least Something Awful doesn't yet assume some inexplicable sort of guilt by association because the current devs were previously under the former devs.

- Have ongoing general threads more worried about the state of the game's more porny qualities when they are not screeching and circling the wagons because they have convinced themselves that somehow @Shyft (of all people) is the ultimate anti-Ex3 boogeyman haunting their every word ever since someone referenced him in a negative tone once and, having neither met him, read anything he's done or even had any proof he's been present on the boards, readily assumed to a nigh-memetic level he's been the only possible person making posts critical of the game for Years now,

I haven't really seen any commentary on Shyft besides a one-off joke when discussing this thread. "Ok Holden/Ok Shyft/Ok Strength of Many/Ok Morke/Ok etc. is basically just a lazy catchphrase and the equivalent of shitposting when you have nothing constructive to say or want to rile someone up. Frankly, Strength of Many or Holden have been the butt of way more jokes, whereas Shyft, at least as far as I could see, was barely mentioned outside of a post that linked to this thread.

I mean, they shat on me for arguing with Jon Chung for a dozen pages here, and I can live with that.

- Is the PR hub of the gameline which is generally regarded as an echo-chamber, seeing as its purpose is to promote and sell the game to its community, not actively Improve on it or sway the direction of its development and they will outright state as much.

Again, I'm not arguing that this or rpg.net are somehow good, only that they are, relatively speaking, far more welcoming and less vitriolic overall. It, like the other places I mentioned, have an easier time discussing good and bad things about current or prior editions without resorting to a flame-war.

The fact you've straight-up assumed the only reason for my laying into the game as stridently as I do could be the result of some kind of personal slight or vendetta says more about you than it does about me, quite frankly, and twisting what I've said to try characterize me as an unreasonably emotional and hysterical complainer who "can't separate the work from the author like enlightened people do" does you no favors either.

Yet in this post you still seem, at least to me, to be making arguments that the game lacks merit because the people who wrote it lack merit. If you want to debate the actual mechanics or the fluff, I'm more than happy to. I stated in earlier posts what I felt are the merits and the flaws of the game are, giving people an opportunity to either accept or argue against it, thus engendering further discussion. Instead, as before, you seem stuck on Holden and Hateweel:

Fact is, you and your feelings, that's an irrelevant factor here. Holden and Hatewheel very distinctly made the game they wanted to make, and that reflects in the book itself even without their involvement. Going to bat for the game as though every inch of it does not have their hands on it doesn't make your position seem any more sophisticated or open-minded, because we're not debating some kind of Death of the Author here. Your justifications start and stop with "they made the thing and I liked it."

Well, that is how I generally try to start a discussion? I feel that this work has merit for certain reasons, and I don't feel that the qualities of the people writing the work factor into my feelings on the work itself. If people feel otherwise, I'm willing to read their posts and argue against them.

So take this word of advice, from me to you: Onyx Path will never reward you for loyalty.

My sole stake in this is wanting to play games I like with cool friends ;_____;

Any new team will be saddled with the design choices of the old team, their decisions, and the mechanical fallout from making the Corebook into what it is now. That's irrevocable facts, the part where if the new Devs are fixing anything now, it will be fixing the things which Holden and Hatewheel left broken in the first place, regardless of whether you personally feel "better than before" is now "good enough" for what the Exalted Kickstarter was sold on being.

Well this is at least a possible discussion: what things did Holden and Hatewheel leave broken? Was it their overuse of natural language? The craft system? I would rather discuss that then talk about Holden and Morke for the millionth time. I am not arguing on the basis of "better than before," however. For example, I would genuinely would enjoy their combat system even if it were divorced entirely from the setting. I would enjoy a great many of the mechanics of the game, even if they were divorced entirely from the setting. At the very least, the combat engine and the social engine could make settings like Eberron or Dark Sun (more) interesting for me.

The obvious argument here is to say that "hey, its not ALL Holden and Hatewheel's book, because they had an entire writing team!" But that's more of a damning point than one which disproves me. Because if we got this game in this condition, after ALL this fucking ordeal, despite the new Devs active presence as a tempering voice which could have helped take it somewhere better, and they are only now taking it upon themselves to repair what they undoubtedly knew was bad in-practice, it doesn't say Anything positive about the direction they will be going in. Either they didn't know how bad it was and were removed from effecting it, in which case they are ignorant to its flaws, or they passively stood by to watch it all unfold anyway.

That's only way the new Devs are removed from blame here, total non-involvement, because insisting otherwise puts them just as much at fault for allowing Holden and Hatewheel to run hog-wild on the project to begin with. There is no neutral stance here.

Your argument is that the core system is cancerous from the get-go, and the best the new Devs can do is salvage it and at worst continue with it blithely? I feel that's the thrust of your argument, and I disagree if only because I have a relatively positive view of the material that was written thus far. If nothing else, there's never been any smoking gun in the core that people can point to in the core like 2E's Paranoia Combat, or stuff like a Caster/Martial divide, or so on even with over a year after release. You can certainly complain about aspects of the book, but the fact that those design decisions are defended by people who are not Holden or Morke, or that players are more willing to overlook those flaws for the sake of what they do find enjoyable, shows that the game does have merit, and moreover, a fair amount of it.

Sometimes, and i say this with the most tender love possible, I think the exalted fandom is the superwholock of RPG fandoms.

I am at least grateful that nobody pushed a teenage girl to attempt suicide over some rpg fanart or something equally trivial ala the insane tumblr fandoms.
 
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