I question the wisdom of critiquing other forums for lacking reasonable or thoughtful dialogue, when this is the thread that had a multi-page argument about whether a Solar could or could not break a specific kind of code which was so asinine that the staff had to come in and kill it...

Pretty sure I've seen that exact argument on other forums. Basically, this fandom is just Like That.

We drove Grabowski out.

Really? How?

Dif, I'm not arguing that the places I've mentioned are some sort of enlightened hubs, I'm arguing that it's simply easier to have a constructive conversation there without quite as much hysteria. At the very least Something Awful doesn't yet assume some inexplicable sort of guilt by association because the current devs were previously under the former devs.

...

Again, I'm not arguing that this or rpg.net are somehow good, only that they are, relatively speaking, far more welcoming and less vitriolic overall. It, like the other places I mentioned, have an easier time discussing good and bad things about current or prior editions without resorting to a flame-war.

I'm not really interested in going into detail, but I find it easier to discuss openly and honestly here than on the official forum. Different places suit different people, obviously.

Well this is at least a possible discussion: what things did Holden and Hatewheel leave broken? Was it their overuse of natural language? The craft system?

Yes and yes.

Also, since you asked, off the top of my head...

They included the BP/xp issue again.

I strongly suspect the combat balance will fall apart if anyone gets serious about testing it at high Essence.

They wrote a bunch of Charms and Merits that are useless, ill-conceived, vaguely explained, or seemingly designed to start flame wars.

I'm told the sailing system plays poorly, although I've never really used it.

I don't think much of the leadership and medicine rules.

The base difficulties make everyone in Creation incredibly capable.

Hatewheel made a complete hash of the backer Charms.

The Solar Ability Charm trees seem to have been structured according to what they felt like writing, rather than what they needed. This applies to both what the Charms do and the way they're spread among the prereqs.

There are bits that refer to non-existent mechanics; I'm still not sure how tests of speed are supposed to work.

Their plans for Lunars, Abyssals, and Infernals range from tedious to terrible.
 
So I've considering dipping my toe back into the table top,and I'm wondering where I should look to find people looking for Exalted? For 2e preferably?
 
So I've considering dipping my toe back into the table top,and I'm wondering where I should look to find people looking for Exalted? For 2e preferably?
I'm going to stop you right there. If you're truly interested in finding people to play Exalted with, I suggest you find a local tabletop group of your own and try to convince them to play it with you.
Pbp just isn't the same, and trying to coordinate VoIP scheduling is a goddamn nightmare.

On the next subject, I would advise not attempting to play 2e for your first game, as it's notoriously lethal as well as...a bunch of other things. Now, as vitriolic and backbiting as this thread gets about 3e and it's devs and what could have been, it is still a fairly solid foundation for an entry-level Solar game, which is pretty much the default for players new to Exalted.

If instead what you wish is a game enabled by he long-released splatbooks and wealth of homebrew that 2e has...well, I guess you've come to the right place for GM training, because you appear to have default appointed yourself it for whatever group you end up with.
 
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There are bits that refer to non-existent mechanics; I'm still not sure how tests of speed are supposed to work.

They're described in the Extended Action rules on page 189. The first reference to tests of speed that appears in the Athletics charm tree does give a page citation when it refers to tests of speed of this page. Tests of speed are only referenced in the Athletics charmset and the Antagonists chapter, I assume they didn't feel that the Charms after Lightning Speed also needed to point to page 189.

It doesn't like, actually specifically lay out "This is how tests of speed work" so much as "This is how extended actions work, an example of which are tests of speed." I can see why they might make that decision, but I don't think it reads well, I would not have minded if they just said what they were in a section for athletics actions in the Systems & Conflicts chapter. Ah well.

I share your frustration with this.

***

Separate from that, this place is utterly unexceptional as far as Exalted fandom goes. My favorite posts are the ones where actual content gets posted or games get discussed. I'm disappointed when 3e bashing occurs, but that's just out of fatigue. I don't really care if people don't like 3e, but it feels weird to just say the same things about it over and over again. That happens with 2e stuff too though.

But I do like it when people write more content here, that's always fun. I like writing up places and cultures, but I don't know if it would be good to share them here since I use 3e and that means some setting conceits differ.
 
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I am at least grateful that nobody pushed a teenage girl to attempt suicide over some rpg fanart or something equally trivial ala the insane tumblr fandoms.
i meant in the smug, self-congratulatory regard the superhwolock fandom would hold itself at it's worst. that's us, that's the exalted fandom. in the end, we all need to be aware that perfect mechanics is like the holy grail, it's not possible to achieve but it's absolutely something to strive for, and end the end we're all just regular folks who are sitting around a table or chat room or pbp forum who are trying to tell a shared story about sexy heroic badasses with giant swords and bigger passions. clear communication and a willingness to compromise are in fact far more valuable to a gaming group than system mastery and creativity, because those are the things that will allow you to recognize and resolve any snags you encounter in play because of inadequate mechanics.
 
They're described in the Extended Action rules on page 189. The first reference to tests of speed that appears in the Athletics charm tree does give a page citation when it refers to tests of speed of this page. Tests of speed are only referenced in the Athletics charmset and the Antagonists chapter, I assume they didn't feel that the Charms after Lightning Speed also needed to point to page 189.

It doesn't like, actually specifically lay out "This is how tests of speed work" so much as "This is how extended actions work, an example of which are tests of speed." I can see why they might make that decision, but I don't think it reads well, I would not have minded if they just said what they were in a section for athletics actions in the Systems & Conflicts chapter. Ah well.

I share your frustration with this.

Thing is, the Charms as written imply something else is going on. Winning Stride Discipline can give Initiative, which does nothing outside of combat. You could combine the extended action rules with the combat rules, but given the existing rules for combat movement it's not at all clear how you're meant to do that. Is the Withdraw action a test of speed? I would assume so, but I would also assume that contesting a disengage action is not one, and honestly this is all pure supposition.

It really feels like legacy code from an extended-roll-based racing subsystem that was removed at some point during the design process.

But I do like it when people write more content here, that's always fun. I like writing up places and cultures, but I don't know if it would be good to share them here since I use 3e and that means some setting conceits differ.

I'm a 3e guy too, despite my complaints; I'd be happy to see what you've got.
 
Pretty sure I've seen that exact argument on other forums. Basically, this fandom is just Like That.
Yes, I am aware. The Exalted fandom has always been exceptionally unpleasant and toxic. :V

We were quite literally too toxic; all the way back in first edition before the old White Wolf forum. He was so tired of the sheer toxicity of the Exalted fanbase that he quit until 3e brought him back on the project, and now we're here.
 
Yes, I am aware. The Exalted fandom has always been exceptionally unpleasant and toxic. :V



We were quite literally too toxic; all the way back in first edition before the old White Wolf forum. He was so tired of the sheer toxicity of the Exalted fanbase that he quit until 3e brought him back on the project, and now we're here.
I am rarely more angry and miserable than I am when arguing about Exalted. Which is odd, given how much I love it. Which is why I've tried to cease arguing entirely.

I suspect this is a flaw due to an early botch on the project that inspires rage in anyone who falls in love with it.
 
I am rarely more angry and miserable than I am when arguing about Exalted. Which is odd, given how much I love it. Which is why I've tried to cease arguing entirely.

I suspect this is a flaw due to an early botch on the project that inspires rage in anyone who falls in love with it.
Sometimes, I wonder why we do so love Exalted; @EarthScorpion has spent more words than War and Peace to fix it, @Shyft has turned his mind to divining the alien will of his prophet Jenna Moran, I act like a misanthropical cynic and the regular pastime of literally every edition's fanbase has been to complain about developers and new iterations of terrible rules.

Yet we still love it. We invest time, effort and dedication into it to a degree that we simply don't do many other RPGs, hell I've been holding on to a dream-version of this wreck of a game for over a decade. It's kind of amazing, I wonder why.
 
Sometimes, I wonder why we do so love Exalted; @EarthScorpion has spent more words than War and Peace to fix it, @Shyft has turned his mind to divining the alien will of his prophet Jenna Moran, I act like a misanthropical cynic and the regular pastime of literally every edition's fanbase has been to complain about developers and new iterations of terrible rules.

Yet we still love it. We invest time, effort and dedication into it to a degree that we simply don't do many other RPGs, hell I've been holding on to a dream-version of this wreck of a game for over a decade. It's kind of amazing, I wonder why.

There is a theory on SA that for a game to be truly popular, it needs to have broken, vague rules that hold up at first glance, like 3.x D&D and Exalted and oWoD.

If a game's rules are too good, and it's too easy to understand, balance, and play, it won't get the same discussion which cements it into people's consciousness. You see, a game with tight, well-designed rules like *World doesn't get as much discussion because it's very easy to homebrew, intuitive to get, and easy to play.

If a game's rules are too bad, like Synnibarr or RIFTS, a player basically loses track of them and abandons them near the start.

But for D&D and Exalted and oWoD, you have rules that are just good enough to start you off and give you a framework for initial play, but bad enough that you realize that they are blatantly broken. The trick is, you generally only do so after you've invested months or years into playing the game, and the sunk cost fallacy has fully kicked in, and now instead of deciding that your prior investment was all wasted, you're going to patch it with endless houserules instead, which you will discuss and share and argue about. The bonus is that because everyone uses different houserules because everyone cares about different things, it makes it so much easier to cause those truly epic flamewars which get your game some level of publicity and maybe someone going 'hmm, there must be something good about this game if people are so passionate about it.'

I don't know whether I believe it or not but it's amusing to theorize that to make a good game (in the sense of a financial success) it helps if your rules are sufficiently bad.
 
There is a theory on SA that for a game to be truly popular, it needs to have broken, vague rules that hold up at first glance, like 3.x D&D and Exalted and oWoD.

If a game's rules are too good, and it's too easy to understand, balance, and play, it won't get the same discussion which cements it into people's consciousness. You see, a game with tight, well-designed rules like *World doesn't get as much discussion because it's very easy to homebrew, intuitive to get, and easy to play.
I dunno; 4e rules were pretty good and airtight for doing it what set out to do; and yet it inspired such dissension to the fact that Pathfinder threatened to topple WOTC as the top dogs in the industry.
 
I like writing up places and cultures, but I don't know if it would be good to share them here since I use 3e and that means some setting conceits differ.
Post them anyway; differing setting conceits have never stopped @EarthScorpion, and it's not like 2e fans aren't used to pruning write-ups when they don't quite jive with their campaign. As long as you don't include anything particularly offensive to the thread's sensibilities (such as triremes), I doubt people will care over-much about which edition you wrote it for.
I know that if I like something, I'll use it regardless of the intended edition.

Yet we still love it. We invest time, effort and dedication into it to a degree that we simply don't do many other RPGs, hell I've been holding on to a dream-version of this wreck of a game for over a decade. It's kind of amazing, I wonder why.
Pithy answer: masochism.

Serious answer: it's an inspiring concept, and works well enough that it's clear that it can work, it's just a matter of sorting the bits that don't work from the bits that do work. Exalted is hardly unique in the level of dedication it inspires; 3.5e D&D is still getting homebrew content almost a decade and a half after its release, and with 2 following editions released and at least two successor systems that I know of (one being Pathfinder, which is still getting official content, and the other being Legend, which is a sadly dead project).
... I'm amused to note that my answer is basically a less cynical version of what @MJ12 Commando said while I was typing this.
 
Sometimes, I wonder why we do so love Exalted; @EarthScorpion has spent more words than War and Peace to fix it, @Shyft has turned his mind to divining the alien will of his prophet Jenna Moran, I act like a misanthropical cynic and the regular pastime of literally every edition's fanbase has been to complain about developers and new iterations of terrible rules.

Yet we still love it. We invest time, effort and dedication into it to a degree that we simply don't do many other RPGs, hell I've been holding on to a dream-version of this wreck of a game for over a decade. It's kind of amazing, I wonder why.
The themes of heroism in the face of a broken world, and the power to attempt to fix but most likely fail are also deeply compelling to me.
 
I dunno; 4e rules were pretty good and airtight for doing it what set out to do; and yet it inspired such dissension to the fact that Pathfinder threatened to topple WOTC as the top dogs in the industry.
That probably has more to due with being part of a series (DnD), and yet being different enough from it's still popular predecessor to ignite a backlash. The issue people have with 4ed isn't about the product itself but about comparing 4ed to other editions of dnd.
 
That probably has more to due with being part of a series (DnD), and yet being different enough from it's still popular predecessor to ignite a backlash. The issue people have with 4ed isn't about the product itself but about comparing 4ed to other editions of dnd.
Yeah but its still a counterpoint to MJ12 point he brought up.
 
Ahhh, a fun question @ManusDomine

The TL;DR answer is that I enjoy the potential of Exalted.

But, a history lesson. We call back to the distant years 2008 and 9. I had just graduated college, hadn't yet found a job and was looking for a new hobby that costed less than Wh40k. I had been peripherally aware of Exalted for some time before that, exposed primarily through the popular demotivators of the time and the incidental mentions on 4chan's /tg thread. Yes- I was both Shyft even back then, and an Anon.

From there I encountered the sup/tg IRC channel, and gradually joined a greater community in the firm 'mid point' of 2e. This was in the leadup to Infernals, before we really knew the dread trend of Freelancers (nevermind that everyone on the line was still a Freelancer, but we didn't care to name names or keep track of who did what). My first game was called Sunshine and Decay, run by a first-time ST and full of awful people save one. The party twilight hated the idea of Active techniques, so he focused on Medicine simply because everything was permanent/passive. We had a stoner-zenith and my pretty-zenith, and the best player of the group was the dawn with bark skin. He was the best part of the game, goddamn.

Anyway, that first game, my first character died. This was during the point at which the community was really starting to super-saturate with the idea of Paranoia Combat as the Ideal Way to Play, as opposed to 'Thought Experiment Balance-Breaker'.

The old crew back then were various 4chan anons and not-so-anons (I can't use the word 4chan used for them, as it would be a ToS). Many of them I still have at least a distant connection to, or have maintained now as my core crew of artist friends and so on.

That's the history lesson though- from that point, I really hadn't grokked Exalted for several years, often regurgitating the latest meme or stumbling around trying to understand the game and how to be a roleplayer. To underscore this- Exalted was my first proper creative RP experience, of making a consistent character and holding to it. Of course, I had the issue of most of my characters back then being 'Stuff Shyft wants to Draw' and weren't very interesting beyond that.

Anyway, games came and went, some long runners- one of the first if not first IRC Infernals games grew out of that server, to my knowledge. It was a wild, heady time.

Underlying all this, as my understanding grew, was the idea and sudden realization of something I had longed for, enjoyed previously but never had a name to give- Mechanics as Metaphor, or more topically Borgstromancy. The idea of crunch-informing-fluff and vice-versa was a revelation to me, and in a very real sense kickstarted my ideal of game design despite being trained for it previously in college. I had to know more, had to understand. I devoured the books, evaluated the decisions. (To this day though I sadly have not read Sidereals 1e). And I in turn comprehended.

Exalted at its best was a self-teaching game, but it's best were akin to thin golden strands of hay in bales upon bales of both pedestrian straw and fetid, rotted stalks representing ill-conceived mechanics, freak-the-norms White Wolf writing, and so on. When the game was working, you were encouraged, much like Raiden was throughout MGS2, to act in a manner akin to an Exalt or Solid Snake, respectively. Like the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, the 'language' of Charms and underlying mechanics informed and reinforced the themes of their attached Exalts. (This is why I am so enamored with the Metal Gear Solid series, as well as similar line-blurring endeavors).

This blew my goddamned mind.

Now, I learned all this sadly not from the books, but discussion upon discussion with like-minded souls in that first tight knit community. Sadly though, it was not to last.

Alchemicals 2e hit, and with it came the death knell call of Holden and Hatewheel. Nephiphial (Micheal Goodwin) by no means awful, helped in some places and hurt in others. The inclusive developer/moderator community built up in earnest around RPG.net and the old WW forums, and the wagons began to circle. Ink Monkeys appeared, Glories dominated, and then the DotFA and main-errata. The Dawn Solution followed, until we were introduced to 2.5 edition. And then silence, save for the at the time endless release of cut Infernals content.

The sup/tg community collapsed after it's core members and their games ended, (with memorable scenes being a Lunar eating the heart of the Ebon Dragon, and that aforementioned infernals game ending with the cast ascending to Devil Tigers).

So why do I love Exalted?
It is a setting that lets you point at something and say 'Not Sue Enough'.
It lets me draw characters that are absurd and wonderful and unapologetically sexy in the way that only a Frazetta-esque setting can allow.
It lets me be clever with mechanics and homebrew, of writing words that lead to an inescapable, amusing or potent conclusion.
Above all else, the entertaiment value, the community and friends I hope to maintain for years to come-
It makes me think.
 
His point is that there's a theory that games need to be sufficiently mechanically bad to be popular. I'm not sure that bringing up a game that's not bad mechanically on it's own merits really interacts with that.
I don't it would be fair to say 4e wasn't popular though; under that theory then 4e would be unpopular and inspire little discussion.
 
So why do I love Exalted?
It is a setting that lets you point at something and say 'Not Sue Enough'.
It lets me draw characters that are absurd and wonderful and unapologetically sexy in the way that only a Frazetta-esque setting can allow.
It lets me be clever with mechanics and homebrew, of writing words that lead to an inescapable, amusing or potent conclusion.
Above all else, the entertaiment value, the community and friends I hope to maintain for years to come-
It makes me think.

And maybe why I've never gotten into Exalted, and mostly just pick stuff up and pick through it for ideas for other things, is that my first reaction to the bolded part was to do a double-take.
 
I don't know whether I believe it or not but it's amusing to theorize that to make a good game (in the sense of a financial success) it helps if your rules are sufficiently bad.
You say sufficiently bad, but it think it misses a bit the mark.
The rules of a memorable game like Ex2e or D&D3E aren't bad in an abstract sens, but are good enough to work on a first observation, and go on to produce a wildly different scenario to the one purposed by the rules themselves.
 
The old crew back then were various 4chan anons and not-so-anons (I can't use the word 4chan used for them, as it would be a ToS). Many of them I still have at least a distant connection to, or have maintained now as my core crew of artist friends and so on.
I'm pretty sure mentioning potentially offensive langauge isn't against the rules.
Using it to refer to anyone is another thing.
 
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It never hurts to just not use that kind of word!

Have you guys ever written or seen any interesting homebrew for islands in the West? I'm gearing up to run a game there and appreciate any ideas you could throw my way.
 
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