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General Exalted Thread

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Talkkno said:
I liked conceptually what 3e did with the Lunars, but they went far too modest with their actual accomplishments.
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The incredible walkback on everything which had been spoken about Lunars needs to be reiterated, honestly. Because throughout the pre-kickstarter push, there was this incredible swell of goodwill for "the Lunars you really wanted!" and people were totally excited for a fresh start on that, after so many false-starts across both editions. But it became increasingly clear that Lunars simply were never part of the equation again, and what little had been was simply working to recapture 1e.

So we heard nothing but how Lunars were going to be a Fresh Take, have their position in the setting Redefined along with everyone else, so they meshed better with the overall setting. Then, we heard that Lunars were going back to being standalone iconoclasts, which is... okay fine, 1e did some work with that, nothing really objectionable yet. Then they were getting an island to the West for themselves instead of the entire wyld as a playground... sure, that's also workable, a hub and a "home base" to work from isn't a bad thing necessarily. "With its own Loom to hide from the Sidereals," aaaand now people are getting worried, because this is sounding way too Special for an example of Lunar power, and its stealing heat from the Sids to do it, making the Loom less-meaningful while also making "hiding in the wyld" a redundant feature.

The leaks happen, and we hear that their example of "iconoclastic Lunars" is actually more restrictive than the 1e Smash And Grab Bad Civilization archetype, Solar Bond is gone, that they Did Nothing Meaningful during the First Age because the Solars forcibly prevented it, and now people are not enthused... but still willing to give things a chance because yadda yadda early drafts. Next leak happens, no fluff changes. Silence abounds on the status of where Lunars technically stand, because its unclear if those parts were going to be embellished with more nuance or what. Cut to the book drafts, no fluff change to do-nothing Lunars, and their much-vaunted Island Paradise (singular), does not even belong to them, but is now a Dragonblooded holy-site which they have been conducting a war over.

So the net adjustment for Lunar fans from 2e to 3e, after what could have been an Entire reworking from the ground-up to fully integrate the type into the setting properly, is the Loss of an archetypal role in being "Stewards of Creation," a "???" in the removal of Bond depending on how ill-at-ease the premise makes you personally, having good points and bad points on both ends, and a Gain of "just one set-piece, placed far away and cut off from anything else in the setting which matters. And it doesn't even belong to them." Lunars still have no history, no plot-agency, and very little hooks to draw them into the world, not even as partners to the Solar Exalted, poisoned mechanics surrounding Bond or no. Its almost comical how little care was paid once the literal and metaphorical money was on the table.

Lunars just get to Show Up, just like 1e intended.
 
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Dif said:
The incredible walkback on everything which had been spoken about Lunars needs to be reiterated, honestly. Because throughout the pre-kickstarter push, there was this incredible swell of goodwill for "the Lunars you really wanted!" and people were totally excited for a fresh start on that, after so many false-starts across both editions. But it became increasingly clear that Lunars simply were never part of the equation again, and what little had been was simply working to recapture 1e.
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Honestly, yeah. That general attitude extended to most of the changes they were making, this feeling that they were buying too much into their own hype, but it's particularly notable with Lunars because it's always been their issue that they never feel like they've done something important. They've always been too decentralized, too gimmicky in some ways. They never had an identity to call their own. They could have been put alongside the Solars in the Jade Prison and it wouldn't have changed the setting much.

Even now in the fic I'm working on (the one I said is going to be sorta-set in the Caul), I'm really tempted to lower the importance of Lunars overall because I don't have a feel for it. I mean, part of it is that it's a fusion crossover and that I want the place to look a bit more like some other setting, rather than whatever the Caul ends up being described as, but a sizable chunk of it is still 'I have no idea how this place is actually important for the Lunars'.
 
Huntertalon said:
I would say you're being obtuse, but in fairness I did not explicate why I felt that way.
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I was more talking at you than with you; it's something I've been thinking about for a while now, so I'll just spill my thoughts on the matter in no particular direction:

Holden and Morke said that one of their goals with 3e is to put the "magic" back into the setting. Now, some people groaned at this, like "Just because something can be explained doesn't make it less magical!" you know.

A quick digression: Jenna Moran wrote a lot of the most beloved parts of Exalted -- the chapter in Games of Divinty on Hell. She named the Primordials, she drafted out several iconic demons, and worked on some other parts of the line, like the Fair Folk. She also made a game called Nobilis. Nobilis takes place in a world where the fabric of reality is defined by concepts. The Imperator of Fire defines fire. Fire is not a chemical reaction between oxygen and a fuel source that produces light and heat, fire is the thing that is hot at a distance and burns when you touch it. It's the thing that's produced from sparks and tinder, and this definition is fundamentally more real than the scientific definition. In Nobilis, essentially, the world actually is how we see it. There's no hidden mathematical model, no clockwork machine beating at the heart of the world as such. Fire burns because it's hot, and it's hot because hot is a property of Fire. In particular, Fire is no more real or less emergent than Love, or Truth, or Sunglasses. In addition to this, the world we see, of mathematical models and conservation laws and empirical evidence? It's all a self-propagating lie.

This is the kind of magic H&H meant when they said they wanted to put the magic back into Exalted. When something is magical in this sense, it means that meanings, associations and immediate impressions are more real as the things themselves. Things like physical laws in the sense that we'd call physics today don't have a place in such a world. When you hear folks talk about how over-explanation ruins a fantasy setting, this kind of epistemological error is exactly what they're talking about. You're introducing a rational epistemology into a world that doesn't need one. It's why people railed against midichlorians in Star Wars -- you're introducing a rational, biological explanation for a divide between the Good and the Evil, for the magical, when such things only need themselves as justification. You know, Star Wars is a fantasy setting at its heart.

Motonic Physics and Least Gods are the same sort of shit -- you're over-explaining the magical and unreal, making it more like the world we live in. And I mean, we all know we live in a world of mathematical models and the random, insane motions of quantum particles. We all know that love is a lie and a chemical reaction in our brain, that things don't move according to our inclinations, and that we're slaves to thermodynamics. I have fantasy so I can live in Aristotle's world. If that alone makes Exalted generic, well, I've seen more other generic fantasy settings, and I haven't seen one that's as good at putting you in the shoes of a returned god-king, and I haven't seen one with a Hell as good or as, wait for it -- magical as the one in Exalted. Nor have I seen a generic fantasy with the same combination of Wuxia action, down-to-earth problems, Greek tragedy, anime bullshit, and the vivid and weird.

The cycle of explanation and over-explanation, of trying to fit a rational, scientific epistemology in a world where it doesn't fit takes over the setting. It makes all those things I value -- the Greek tragedy and Wuxia action and so on -- less important. It leads to a world without magic, in this very particular sense. The fact that the First Age, the height of wonders, a world of dreams and marvels, just looked kind of like our world but nicer was the slippery slope that Exalted fell down. The Jadeborn looking at test tubes wearing a labcoat, Warstriders having an "Animating Intelligence", and the world running on a cheeky analogue to quantum physics are the perils of this kind of thinking: that it would just be more logical if Exalted looked more like our world. (I need to note that this doesn't mean that Exalted can't deal in things that look modern or with distinctly modern concepts -- the Forest Witches are a take on transhumanism that don't fall into this trap)

Anyway, I like that Exalted 3e is fantasy and unashamed of it. I don't agree with everything Holden and Morke did with 3e (I'd have to be insane to defend some of the choices they made on 3e (sail (craft!!!))), but I don't mind them walking back the magicitech for the sake of actual magic, and a lot of their changes were in a defense of this kind of magic.

(I need to qualify this by saying that Hatewheel is an extremely stupid person and Holden is an asshole. I still like 3e.)
 
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Accelerator said:
On that note, what would be the fantasy equivalent of someone doing sciencey things?
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Wizards doing stuff like crossbreeding Manticores and Fire Crabs to get Blast ended Skrewts, making new spells like fireworks spells, building mechanical automata that shoot fireballs at people, etc.
 
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Accelerator said:
On that note, what would be the fantasy equivalent of someone doing sciencey things?
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If you mean the equivalent to actual science, you've always had your natural philosophers. A lot of that involves observing and cataloging natural phenomena. They'd also study philosophy in general. Knowledge didn't get super compartmentalized until recently, so a lot of historical figures had writings on a really broad array of subjects.
 
Nihnoz said:
The cycle of explanation and over-explanation, of trying to fit a rational, scientific epistemology in a world where it doesn't fit takes over the setting. It makes all those things I value -- the Greek tragedy and Wuxia action and so on -- less important. It leads to a world without magic, in this very particular sense. The fact that the First Age, the height of wonders, a world of dreams and marvels, just looked kind of like our world but nicer was the slippery slope that Exalted fell down. The Jadeborn looking at test tubes wearing a labcoat, Warstriders having an "Animating Intelligence", and the world running on a cheeky analogue to quantum physics are the perils of this kind of thinking: that it would just be more logical if Exalted looked more like our world. (I need to note that this doesn't mean that Exalted can't deal in things that look modern or with distinctly modern concepts -- the Forest Witches are a take on transhumanism that don't fall into this trap)
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I would argue that most of the (legitimate) issues you're pointing out are more issues with the way that the gameline focuses stupidly heavily on the First Age rather than anything about the actual underlying physics of the world.

The First Age had a number of extremely smart folks incentivized to figure out what kind of underlying rules reality worked by, codify them, and build technology using those tools. Maybe that technology takes the form of breeding specialized servitor races, maybe it takes the form of creating advanced tools. Probably both. Some of those should still be around, just like some of that advanced understanding of the underlying principles should be around.

The issue, and this is a larger issue with every edition, is that the First Age is always presented as this super recent thing that's still having impacts and shaped most of the things you're interacting with. The random ruin you find? First Age ruin. The cause of some political schism in a group that's been around a while? First Age thing. Sidereals? Still hung up over First Age business.

The end result is that the magic is lessened, but it's as much due to the world feeling smaller as a whole as having some comprehensive framework to explain everything. It doesn't help that setpieces in the setting are almost always centered on discrete cities that have no descriptions of what's going on outside of them, and appear to relate only to each other.

I remember reading through the 3E book, and I saw the awesome drawing of the four gigantic statutes holding up a city. I had twenty ideas for how I would use this, thoughts on where this even was (I imagined the West, but it could easily fit in somewhere on the Blessed Isle, or maybe an island off the coast, an old watchtower, etc.)

Then I read the section in the book, and my interest died, because it was kind of lame.

The problem (or at least a big part of it) is that the gameline vacillates between overexplaination and underexplaination. There's offhand mentions to things that get no followup, leaving them useless to me because if I'm going to create something from scratch I may as well just do that on my own. And then there's too-detailed references to some specific element that I would rather leave more vague, or have a more holistic presentation of, so I can draw the blanks myself.

tl;dr: the problem isn't that at one point in the setting you had Jadeborn with lab coats. The problem is that the Jadeborn with lab coats is presented as both a recent phenomenon, something that characters are likely to know and care about, and something that it's valuable to bring back–rather than clearly explaining that the age of lab coats has come and gone, and now scientists are scholar-monks with sweetass sterilized fur coats who use the wisdom of the ancients to cobble together an improvised alchemical set that lets them create new breeds of plants... but the all but the most abstracted reasons why said alchemical set work are not only unknown, but irrelevant.
 
Huntertalon said:
I would say you're being obtuse, but in fairness I did not explicate why I felt that way.

Let's see. They removed most magitech, retconned the First Age into being pre-industrial with much lower tech and little improvement in standard of living from beforehand, Motonic Physics and Least Gods no longer exist, scientific rationalism no longer exists at all in Creation and instead it's entirely mystical, rewrote Twilights into being (just) teachers instead of scientists and inventors, changed the Alchemicals from a key part of the history of Exalted to an optional splat that's not part of the main canon, turned Autochthon into an unsympathetic dick, removed magic as a thing normal people can do, Perfects are no longer canon, and they removed Devil-Tigers and replaced the Infernals with something completely different with the same name (I admit this last one might not count towards it being generic, but I don't like it). I'm sure I missed some things.

When I say these changes make it more like generic fantasy, I mean it quite literally. And the meaning should be clear. I'll stand by this, but I admit my problem is not so much it being to a greater or lesser degree generic but rather with each individual change by itself. I like science fantasy significantly more than "pure" fantasy, that's mainly why.

As for the rest of your post, I made no claims about the quality of writing, although I admit it wasn't clear.

As an aside, since you irrelevantly brought up mechanics towards the end, I'll just note Crafting really did not need to be made more complicated, and I dislike the resulting nerf. Solars being more powerful is cool I guess, but did they really need it?

So overall I'm disappointed.
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Yeah just...play Exalted 2nd Edition. It's designed with you in mind, more or less, and there are plenty of houserules to fix the mechanical frustrations. Third Edition moved away from all of that with good reason. Exalted being fantasy. Not sci-fi with a thin fantasy veneer.
 
Nihnoz said:
A quick digression: Jenna Moran wrote a lot of the most beloved parts of Exalted -- the chapter in Games of Divinty on Hell. She named the Primordials, she drafted out several iconic demons, and worked on some other parts of the line, like the Fair Folk.
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Yup, that's Jenna alright, the whimsical meeting with the serious, in a way that few others can. It's not her fault, but without Jenna, we'd also never have had the latter half of 2e's metaplot, and how Infernals proceeded to completely steal the spotlight.
 
Nihnoz said:
If you mean the equivalent to actual science, you've always had your natural philosophers. A lot of that involves observing and cataloging natural phenomena. They'd also study philosophy in general. Knowledge didn't get super compartmentalized until recently, so a lot of historical figures had writings on a really broad array of subjects.
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No, i meant fantasy versions of people doing experiments and tinkering
 
The thing is, you absolutely can have high conceptual magitech. Look at @Aleph's Of The Stars or the entire Atlas Institute in the Nasuverse. Concepts still reduce even if objects don't - you can define "fire" in terms of component concepts if you like, though Godel says it has to bottom out somewhere it doesn't have to be anywhere soon - and psychology and sociology of least gods is just as much a science as physics and chemistry of atoms are.

Mostly 3e just makes First Age Solars look dumb. Just because the universe works on Nobilis rules doesn't mean you can't automate things, and once you have automation you start tending towards modern civilization.
 
Nihnoz said:
This is the kind of magic H&H meant when they said they wanted to put the magic back into Exalted. When something is magical in this sense, it means that meanings, associations and immediate impressions are more real as the things themselves.
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Here's the problem though. They wrote it badly in the attempt, because all that was on their minds was the kneejerk Removal of what they didn't want, and not the Addition of what you're saying they did. Instead of what you're claiming we gained, in meanings, associations, impressions, the evocative presence of magic utilizing those things don't actually Appear anywhere, not even as suggestions of an idea. That's not articulating Magic, its asking you to Madlib something back into the setting to fill the gap because they couldn't be bothered.

And this is the problem underlying a lot of what Ex3 claims to have as its big incredible feature, its "openess." But its not really open at all, just Unspecified and Underwritten. It presents Things in front of the reader, ungrounded, not as a means to say anything about the setting at large, but to say "here is a weird thing, and its pretty mysterious, run with that." Its unfulfilling to read about, unsatisfying to come across ingame, and not especially weird because you're left without any context for why it is weird and how that matters. All because its not even half a story, its a broken-off segment of one with no connective tissue to attach to anything else.

You know what had the same issue as this? The Emissary of Nexus, who was "shrouded in mystery" throughout all of First edition, and people hated it and hated Nexus as a result. Beyond the problems around Nexus itself, the Emissary made Nexus Impossible to include without addressing the fact you personally had to suss out the Emissary to figure out where it stopped and Nexus-proper began, so that players could Play without tripping over the feet of a vaguely-defined god-being who was somehow responsible for Everything.

You know what else had the same issue as this? The Kukla, from the same book as the equally-unstatted 3rd Circle Demons which everyone loves today, but couched in the terms of an explicitly antagonistic threat to level against PCs with no reason to Be there, no means to combat and no reason to be used because it lacked any setting relevance or plot-circumstances besides "Exalted now includes Godzilla for ushering in the apocalypse." No one built plots involving the Kukla as a result, because it was a soulbreaker orb with scales and one meager plot-thread so bare that it finally had to be rolled into one of the three campaigns in the 1e Alchemicals book as a reminder "the Kukla exists to tear shit up," no differently than they included The Clay Man for the sake of everyone who had downloaded their early web-supplement to Creatures of the Wyld.

You know what even beyond that had the same issue as this? The very same Forest Witches you mention, written by Jenna herself, as an example of not always batting 1000 with her own ideas. In the original Outcastes book, they came out of absolute nowhere after a fairly rigorous exploration of Lookshyan history and culture, leaving everyone confused as to what she was going for, why they existed, and even what their mechanics Meant, all because she didn't want to elaborate and ruin the Mystery of puzzling it out for yourself, both in and out of character.

So obviously no one used the Sea of Mind, and primarily avoided the hell out of the Northeast for fear of either stumbling onto it or causing their ST to need to figure out what this jumble of What Ifs was intending to Mean in the context of their game. The "What the Hell is this?" sidebar for the 2e DB book exists precisely because of this confusion, and while it Helped in understanding, there was no resulting surge of people chomping at the bit to have Forest Witch games. It was simply an example of Being There, and however "magical" it may have felt to have this conglomeration of inexplicable Somethings present there, it did not actually make the area more gameable than it was previously. Mystery isn't openness, the same way you cannot expect the reader to glean insight from the sections of the book you never wrote.

And Holden and co completely missed the memo on this point, that explicitly leaving glaring gaps in setting material and prodding the reader to "use your imagination!" is not the same as writing something which implies a Magical Setting of the sort they would prefer actually Exists. Instead, there are arbitrary reams of notes devoted to indirectly telling you what Exalted Isn't, and what it Is would be Not About This, and there are None of These, and All of That can go elsewhere, thankyouverymuch.
 
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linkhyrule5 said:
Mostly 3e just makes First Age Solars look dumb. Just because the universe works on Nobilis rules doesn't mean you can't automate things, and once you have automation you start tending towards modern civilization.
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This kind of implicitly assumes that there's a single direction that human progress must go in, and that any deviation from it is foolishness itself. There's no reason that the First Age, the age of dreams, necessitates automation, any more than the Garden of Eden needs automation. I'm not suggesting that the First Age actually be a big garden where people sit naked and innocent and free of sin or whatever, but it's more an illustration of the point that a fantastical, utopian society in no way needs to have the features of modern society. You're making an error here in assuming that social and technological progress has a single direction. Even if it does, assuming you know it is just plain hubris.

Dif said:
And this is the problem underlying a lot of what Ex3 claims to have as its big incredible feature, its "openess." But its not really open at all, just Unspecified and Underwritten. It presents Things in front of the reader, ungrounded, not as a means to say anything about the setting at large, but to say "here is a weird thing, and its pretty mysterious, run with that." Its unfulfilling to read about, unsatisfying to come across ingame, and not especially weird because you're left without any context for why it is weird and how that matters. All because its not even half a story, its a broken-off segment of one with no connective tissue to attach to anything else.
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A lot of this is the result of the fraught release schedule, really. I don't think the devs at any point intended to leave the additions to the setting an unspecified blob, but rather kept them as hooks to elaborate on more fully when they had the pagecount, you know? Like, in 3e core, the Realm is left pretty undefined, with brief blurbs on all the Great Houses. But there's an entire book coming out on the Realm! There's going to be a lot of exposition and explanation of what's going on there, but the Corebook itself has a limited pagecount.

(Another specification: it's entirely the fault of the Devs that the corebook cycle has taken so long. I'd be angry if I wasn't so damn disappointed)
 
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Accelerator said:
No, i meant fantasy versions of people doing experiments and tinkering
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And Nihnoz answered you. People have been experimenting and tinkering and the like for about as long as they've existed. They're going to be thinking about how things must work, applying what they know and attempting to make intuitive leaps to what they don't know. They're going to be using magic in this, both to study things as well as to make conclusions on. What exactly that looks like is going to largely depend on where an ST sets the boundaries.
 
Nihnoz said:
This kind of implicitly assumes that there's a single direction that human progress must go in, and that any deviation from it is foolishness itself. There's no reason that the First Age, the age of dreams, necessitates automation, any more than the Garden of Eden needs automation. I'm not suggesting that the First Age actually be a big garden where people sit naked and innocent and free of sin or whatever, but it's more an illustration of the point that a fantastical, utopian society in no way needs to have the features of modern society. You're making an error here in assuming that social and technological progress has a single direction. Even if it does, assuming you know it is just plain hubris.
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One of the foundational conceits of the Exalted gameline is that it's inhabited by humans, as we would recognize them today.

Humans, throughout pretty much all of recorded history, have been tool users who have been interested in reducing their personal workload if possible.

It's true that the First Age could have any kind of aesthetic or cultural touchstones that a writer desires, constrained by the necessary story beats of the First Age.

What's problematic is when (and I'll note that I don't remember 3E actually doing this, but it kind of just left it blank) the setting suggests that no effort was made, in a centuries-long civilization whose rulers included individuals of specifically superhuman genius, with particular talents applied to figuring out how the world works, to creating a unified theory of reality and using said theory to create advanced "technology" that helps reduce personal workloads.
 
Nihnoz said:
This kind of implicitly assumes that there's a single direction that human progress must go in, and that any deviation from it is foolishness itself. There's no reason that the First Age, the age of dreams, necessitates automation, any more than the Garden of Eden needs automation. I'm not suggesting that the First Age actually be a big garden where people sit naked and innocent and free of sin or whatever, but it's more an illustration of the point that a fantastical, utopian society in no way needs to have the features of modern society. You're making an error here in assuming that social and technological progress has a single direction. Even if it does, assuming you know it is just plain hubris.
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Well, yes, but it should go somewhere that isn't just "fantasy iron age kingdom". Legendary ultra-competent god-kings looking to make the most of the impossible fantasyland they call home might not wind up with a civilization that looks like ours, but they shouldn't be ruling over generic fantasyland peasants, either.
 
DayDreamer said:
What's problematic is when (and I'll note that I don't remember 3E actually doing this, but it kind of just left it blank) the setting suggests that no effort was made, in a centuries-long civilization whose rulers included individuals of specifically superhuman genius, with particular talents applied to figuring out how the world works, to creating a unified theory of reality and using said theory to create advanced "technology" that helps reduce personal workloads.
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I expect that there's a number of labor-saving measures in the first age in places where it's possible to cut corners, and I don't think it would be reasonable for the game to deny that. It's just that those labor saving measures might be a bound spirit serving you (slavery is one of the oldest, most storied, and easiest labor saving devices), it might be that all the trees here just drop fruits at your feet when you get hungry like we're in the garden of eden, it might be a giant workshop where skilled artisans work on individual projects at a massive scale (as opposed to division of labor like you'd find at a factory), and you know, on like that. None of these are really how modern society organizes its labor or automates production, but all of them could have been better solutions for the First Age.

For what it's worth, Arms of the Chosen looks like it might go into some detail wrt 3e's version of the First Age. Both of the sample artifacts had their era of creation in the statblock with a nice fancy title (one was something like "the golden age" and another was, iirc, the "ichneumon aeon"), which at least implies some variability in First Age society and culture.
 
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Nihnoz said:
A lot of this is the result of the fraught release schedule, really. I don't think the devs at any point intended to leave the additions to the setting an unspecified blob, but rather kept them as hooks to elaborate on more fully when they had the pagecount, you know?
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The Pagecount Demon doesn't fly in a world where we have more words dedicated to Melee Charms than we do on basic setting features.

The First Edition core was 300 pages, and spent the majority of it laying out the foundations of the world. The 2e Corebook was 400 pages and had to leverage itself extremely tightly to summarize all the basics of First Edition inside itself compactly. The Ex3 corebook is the size of both combined, and somehow establishes even Less about the setting, while paradoxically demanding more Implicit Understanding of how the setting Should operate and the reasons underlying those things.

They don't get to benefit from both "they didn't have enough space/scheduling!" and "vagueness and lack of codification is a Feature!" in the same breath.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
The thing is, you absolutely can have high conceptual magitech. Look at @Aleph's Of The Stars or the entire Atlas Institute in the Nasuverse. Concepts still reduce even if objects don't - you can define "fire" in terms of component concepts if you like, though Godel says it has to bottom out somewhere it doesn't have to be anywhere soon - and psychology and sociology of least gods is just as much a science as physics and chemistry of atoms are.

Mostly 3e just makes First Age Solars look dumb. Just because the universe works on Nobilis rules doesn't mean you can't automate things, and once you have automation you start tending towards modern civilization.
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Wait. Of the stars? Where?

Also, question. How useful would the death by obsidian butterflies be for the Endless war for jadeborn?
 
The invocations of the "pagecount demon" just make me think "Well, if they hadn't put in all the 'indulge the whales' stuff as part of the crowdfunding model, maybe they'd have been able to fit a greater volume of useful stuff into that enormous cinderblock of a corebook".
 
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