A lot of people seem to have that opinion but I think it's a bit better to make this a uniquely Lore thing. Sure, Survival can let you know about some plant or whatever, but as a game mechanic it's neat to give this as a special reward to characters who have actually invested in Lore. And, even if you give this mechanic to other abilities, it's still good to restrict the Charms for it to Lore.
The issue is that most of the other knowledge-based Abilities, like Survival (or Bureaucracy) don't have their own subsystems to play with, or at least, not in the scale or frequency (or simple fun) of Lore. In an ideal world, there would be unique and different Charm Trees for declarations in each of the Abilities, in ways that could make different Splats better at doing different kinds of declarations.
Basic Survival lets you introduce information about native animals or plants. Solar Survival declarations would be centered around making big, sweeping statements about flora or fauna, even after only having a brief interaction with the environment. Lunar Survival (Perception?) declarations would allow them to introduce very specific species of plant or animal with useful characteristics. Abyssal Survival would be about local ghosts and wraiths or micro-shadowlands.
By contrast, basic Lore lets you introduce information about history, geography, politics, or weird local stuff. Sidereal Lore is big on letting you declare secrets. Dragonblooded Lore lets you introduce information about Dragon Lines, noble families, previous Dragonblooded (especially your family) relations with the area.
It's a lot of work, which might be why they didn't do it, but there was space here to make some dynamic and engaging crunch that reinforced the narratives of what splats were supposed to be about.
I guess the reason I used the term as I did, which I'm not wholly happy with, is that if we're going to assume that the realm works anything like the ancient world, then there just isn't the division between civilian and military dragonblooded that you suggest. A dragon blooded might be a pencil pusher in the civil service, but if the realm were to come to a full war, I would expect that they would buckle on armour and fight on the fields of honour were they able too, just like a Roman or a European or a Samurai.
The difference is that the blessed isle itself has known eight centuries of mostly peace, so combat right now is confined to the threshold and the colonies.
The 2nd edition dragon blooded book does seem to imply that dragon blooded believe that they all have warrior qualities, and despise softness and weakness, so I think it's pretty obvious that they're all going to want to fight if the empire itself is threatened, even if currently warfare is given to those of a specific training and character.
Edit: That said, I wonder if given the nature of sworn brotherhoods there's not at least some level of team rewarding going on with them too. The first brotherhood to slay an enemy champion or the like, rather than the first warrior.
Isn't Sesus Nagezzer's backstory that he suffered crippling depression for a while after he was rendered incapable of fighting after some heroics he did crippled him, and that he was looked on as dead weight until he found new purpose as a hidden spymaster-patriot pretending to be a debauched fool? That might be something personal to him rather than his society placing a high value on martial prowess that he could no longer be a part of, though.
The way I read it, it seems like, while a Dynast is not expected to be a warrior-first and shouldn't just be a warrior, all of them are expected to be combat-capable, in the same way all of them are expected to be literate and well-versed in at least a few chosen works, like the Immaculate texts and the Thousand Correct Actions of the Upright Soldier. A Dynast who can't fight is every bit as much a figure of scorn and/or pity as a Dynast who can't read; Lost Eggs might get a bit of a pass due to their circumstances, but they'd likely still be expected to work to bring themselves up to snuff.
In that way, the samurai comparison isn't completely incorrect, though it's far from perfect; even before the Edo Period, the idea that a samurai had to know how to do more than just kill people (or in some cases even primarily kill people) was already gaining significant traction. There was a growing expectation for samurai to be literate and cultured, because a daimyo needed more than just thugs with swords to actually rule the lands they were conquering (and many of them were keenly interested in increasing things like agricultural output and the like to get an edge over the competition, so handing a vassal some land wasn't just a blank check for them to sit around doing nothing with it), and many of them preferred to trust their samurai retainers with important duties and lands, rather than local monks or merchants (though they still employed them in many capacities, of course).
So you had samurai who were in charge of a daimyo's tea ceremonies (which were increasingly used to conduct diplomatic negotiations), or with keeping accounts for this or that bit of land, or whatever non-combat task needed to be done, and yet they were still expected to participate in warfare when called upon. There wasn't some dramatic shift toward the samurai as a largely demilitarized caste of civil servants; it was just a continuation and official endorsement of a trend that had begun at least 50 years before the Edo Shogunate was even established.
I wouldn't be surprised if a certain martial ethos still existed among the Realm's Dynasts, even the ones who spend their whole lives as brush-pushing bureaucrats, akin to the samurai of the Edo Shogunate continuing to glorify their martial heritage even as most of them worked as glorified clerks who wore the swords at their sides as more a symbol of their status than any actual practical use. And just as those samurai-clerks were expected to attain at least a moderate proficiency with the traditional weapons of the samurai, even the most bookish Dynast likely makes it a point to achieve some level of proficiency in combat, simply as a matter of societal expectation.
I'm thinking of creating a PbtA Exalted hack. The one time I've played a PbtA game, I enjoyed it. My only problem; I'm not sure where to go to learn the system, as unlike, say, GURPS or Fate there's no setting/game agnostic book with the rules and a guide to how to modify them. So is there a guide to making a PbtA ruleset somewhere, and which two-three games should I look at to figure out the rules from?
I'm thinking of creating a PbtA Exalted hack. The one time I've played a PbtA game, I enjoyed it. My only problem; I'm not sure where to go to learn the system, as unlike, say, GURPS or Fate there's no setting/game agnostic book with the rules and a guide to how to modify them. So is there a guide to making a PbtA ruleset somewhere, and which two-three games should I look at to figure out the rules from?
This gives it a distinct mechanical identity - Lore otherwise has very little to be rolled for (the "roll to know existing fact" use just always seems to produce degenerate outcomes IMO). And it differentiates between characters who have a scholarly view of knowledge over a practical or applied view.
I do think Survival and Bureaucracy should get better systems though (although Bureaucracy at least currently can be used as a social influence ability).
This gives it a distinct mechanical identity - Lore otherwise has very little to be rolled for (the "roll to know existing fact" use just always seems to produce degenerate outcomes IMO). And it differentiates between characters who have a scholarly view of knowledge over a practical or applied view.
I do think Survival and Bureaucracy should get better systems though (although Bureaucracy at least currently can be used as a social influence ability).
What gives Melee, Martial Arts, Thrown, and Archery "distinct mechanical [identities]"? The only differences I'm aware of are charms and how much movement is required. However, I don't see this as a bad thing in any way, because they're all abilities with a parallel goal. Forcing distinct mechanics just so they feel different in play would be jarring and is unnecessary.
Furthermore, trying to differentiate characters who are heavy on theory rather than heavy on practical skill based solely on Ability contradicts what they're supposed to cover; dots in an Ability cover both practical and theoretical knowledge, and there is no skill that involves only one half of that (artificial) divide.
What gives Melee, Martial Arts, Thrown, and Archery "distinct mechanical [identities]"? The only differences I'm aware of are charms and how much movement is required. However, I don't see this as a bad thing in any way, because they're all abilities with a parallel goal. Forcing distinct mechanics just so they feel different in play would be jarring and is unnecessary.
#actually Melee/MA vs Thrown/Archery are pretty distinct in the base combat system (melee vs ranged) and their Charmsets give them each distinct playstyles.
Furthermore, trying to differentiate characters who are heavy on theory rather than heavy on practical skill based solely on Ability contradicts what they're supposed to cover; dots in an Ability cover both practical and theoretical knowledge, and there is no skill that involves only one half of that (artificial) divide.
I deliberately didn't use the word theory - I said scholarly. "Scholarly" doesn't exclude practice or application, but it does imply something broader - the acquisition of knowledge for knowledge's sake, etc.
It is perfectly fine to me that the Lore Guy gets to have a cool trick he can do that the other guys don't quite get.
#actually Melee/MA vs Thrown/Archery are pretty distinct in the base combat system (melee vs ranged) and their Charmsets give them each distinct playstyles.
I suspect you're confusing "how people play melee vs. ranged" with how the system actually treats them. Mechanically, the difference is movement and charms (and the charms don't do much).
I deliberately didn't use the word theory - I said scholarly. "Scholarly" doesn't exclude practice or application, but it does imply something broader - the acquisition of knowledge for knowledge's sake, etc.
That's even more ridiculous. Do you think that people don't learn about nature for the sake of learning about nature? Do you think that people don't learn about law just because they like to learn about law?
Just to be clear, if your answer to either of those questions was "yes", you thought wrong. People do that. People learn martial arts just for the sake of learning them.
I suspect you're confusing "how people play melee vs. ranged" with how the system actually treats them. Mechanically, the difference is movement and charms (and the charms don't do much).
In Ex3 the charms produce substantially different playstyles.
That's even more ridiculous. Do you think that people don't learn about nature for the sake of learning about nature? Do you think that people don't learn about law just because they like to learn about law?
Just to be clear, if your answer to either of those questions was "yes", you thought wrong. People do that. People learn martial arts just for the sake of learning them.
You seem deeply offended (for some reason) by the idea that a Lore rating with a background in some subject implies a different approach to that subject than just a rating in the related Ability. I don't think continuing this conversation is going to be productive.
I assume this does not automatically increase people's Essence levels, and they still have to work their way up the Essence scale to be able to be any good.
It's f*cked and Creation goes to sh*t. And even if the Loom manages to hold up somehow, Creation still goes to sh*t anyway because every dumbass off the street can create a football field-sized killing zone at will now.
1) The Loom presumably managed somehow when the Lintha were about in vastly greater numbers than they are now, and with their own native charms.
And when the Dragon Kings were around in plentiful numbers, before the Primordials killed off the vast majority of their soul cycle.
And it functions with Jadeborn even now.
2) Enlightened E1 presumably still has to work his/her way all the way up to E3 before they can even access Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, at the significantly inflated XP costs that apply to mortals. Using 2E RAW, that's a 100XP from E1 to E3.
And that's before sorcerous initiation or actual spells.
Yes, there will be more sorcerers about, including home-taught mages who did it on grit and luck, but the only nations who will be able to take real advantage of this either have the infrastructure to sustain apprentice sorcerers until they finally hit E3, the patronage of gods with blessing/training charms, or Exalts.
Makes things a little more multipolar, because it lowers the bar for exceptional mortals to accumulate significant power, but no major change in the balance of power there. The Realm/Lookshy just add mortal sorcerer corps to their existing power structure.
What really changes is the number of TMA users about.
Because an E1 empowered mortal can use the first charm of most canon TMAs, and E2 will usually give you access to most of the style including the form. So you will see more monasteries/dojos about, or peasants/tribals who spend the non-farming months practicing, much like Englishmen were supposed to do with longbows.
Nation-states will be able to put more active Essence users in the field even in the absence of Dragonbloods. Exalts might generally invest more in social charms, but it's not like they aren't already doing so today.
I actually think the idea could work.
Might tweak spell costs for empowered mortals, but that's about it, I think.
Might be interesting to contemplate how that would affect Immaculate dogma, for example.
Or how the Lunars who supposedly were trying to foster mortal independence would take advantage of this. I can see anti-fae TMAs being propagated near Creation's borders with the Wyld.
So after a long snarl of scheduling issues as well as getting a new laptop, I am back to logging Sunlit Sands! Today I'm posting on Session #4, and we just finished session #7 today.
This was a much more intimate session,focused on a handful of characters and not as many city-shaking events as previous. Mostly because it only covers roughly three days.
[09:58] On the 'first day', Inks is tired. Sooo tired, and Maji is suitable Rajah-esque for convenient inclusion. It hasn't come up much, but Maji actually has the Metal Body mutation, which partially justifies his use as spell anchor for Skin of Bronze.
[10:05] Through here, I invoke the 'remembering details' rules such as they are- not that I really need them, Sulieman is easy to remember, but habits are hard to break. (And a botch would've been hilarious if kinda sad).
[10:08] Since Sulieman won't arrive for another day and a half, I figure it'd be a good idea to get moving on things. StW is terrifying. Entire schedules and timetables shuffle at the Solar's whim!
[10:14] For all my desires to play a brassy, loud Solar, I am actually surprisingly mechanically conservative. Some of this is due to my past experience with STs who don't 'reason things out' the way Aleph does here. I'm used to having to break things down for people who have a different level of system mastery.
Here, Aleph made it clear that Inks is in a position of strength and gave a comprehensible, actionable reason why- she litereally did something, designed something that requires her skills and input. This is much more useful to me as a player than 'You win because you're Exalted/Solar' etc.
So having understood that, it was almost a formality to arrange for fair stakes on all sides. Inks isn't out to gouge people and as she said in-character, if someone isn't on her level, she's going to uplift them until they are.
[10:49] I was considering sending Maji to bring Sulieman back to the townhouse, buuut I decided against it.
[11:06] Aleph is very good at identifying when someone is digging their own hole. Probably from experience playing Keris.
[11:41] And here's the payoff- yes Inks, you are unfortunately now even more Waifu in the eyes of dear Husbando.
More seriously, there's all kinds of possible relationships and I'm not so squeamish a roleplayer as to not see how one goes. Right now though, Inks's pride would not let her settle down as anything less than an equal partner- and Sulieman's interest in her is primarily visual/attraction; they've barely known each other two days at this point, and Elsa's still right here.
By the same token, Inks is a Solar and what most people would consider 'crippling expenses', she considers 'Fair' and offers to repair the ships good as new. Because she can. (And it means she has more time to build up a proper amount of money to pay Sulieman back with, with interest.)
And then about thirty minutes later, the session concluded. While it was short, we got a fair amount moving and opportunities are presenting themselves. Three Jewels Bank and House Bhalasus are going to be great ways of getting into bigger business- and I forgot to mention that the equitable arrangement achieved earlier was a Resources 3 salary as top consultant, and Backing 3 in [Something]. Aleph didn't exactly explain what just yet. (Backing is a hard background to arbitrate without discussion).
So now Inks has TWO Resources 3 streams. It's also worth noting that we're prototyping a 10-dot Resources system, as Aleph says "Inks needs an economic system as granular as standard combat." Now, I personally dislike 10-dot background systems, but mostly for aesthetic reasons; I much prefer stuff like Resources to Salary or whatnot, but I am aware that model doesn't work Here.
Armed with two sets of Resources 3, Inks can start really scaling up!
I find this claim suspect, but don't care enough to learn Ex3 to debate whether or not charms serve to patch the lack of difference in the actual combat system. Given that we're talking about a system that doesn't have access restricted by charms, I think the distinction of charms isn't really relevant.
You seem deeply offended (for some reason) by the idea that a Lore rating with a background in some subject implies a different approach to that subject than just a rating in the related Ability. I don't think continuing this conversation is going to be productive.
I find the idea that a character's Lore rating is in any way related to their attitude towards knowledge as preposterous as the idea that a person's skill at sports is in any way related to their intelligence.
I also find the idea of creating useful mechanics that have broad logical applications and then restricting them solely for the purpose of mechanical uniqueness counterproductive to producing an enjoyable game, on account of perfectly valid actions being arbitrarily restricted because people are trying to force every part of the character to be "unique" just so each aspect is unique and not because it adds anything of actual value.
[11:06] Aleph is very good at identifying when someone is digging their own hole. Probably from experience playing Keris.
[11:41] And here's the payoff- yes Inks, you are unfortunately now even more Waifu in the eyes of dear Husbando.
More seriously, there's all kinds of possible relationships and I'm not so squeamish a roleplayer as to not see how one goes. Right now though, Inks's pride would not let her settle down as anything less than an equal partner- and Sulieman's interest in her is primarily visual/attraction; they've barely known each other two days at this point, and Elsa's still right here.
Hey! I resemble that remark! But yes, I was very amused at Inks' accidental implications here - and had sort of suspected she was going to fall into that pattern before it came up. Cultural signals! They are important! (And a very good reason to invest in Socialise and Lore).
And yeah, you're not the only one looking forward to seeing how Inks' relationships develop. : 3
1) The Loom presumably managed somehow when the Lintha were about in vastly greater numbers than they are now, and with their own native charms.
And when the Dragon Kings were around in plentiful numbers, before the Primordials killed off the vast majority of their soul cycle.
And it functions with Jadeborn even now.
And? All of them either are or were tremendously outbred by humans. Even when the Dragon Kings were "plentiful" they numbered, what, a few tens of millions, tops? Their souls are all finite, after all; there is never a new Dragon King soul, which means their population was always capped at whatever number they started at, at most. The Jadeborn, too, are far less numerous than humans and pretty much always have been; there's what, 10-20 million of them, being generous?
Meanwhile, even in the Second Age, when 90% of their population was lost to the Great Contagion/Balorian Crusade combo, 800 years later there have to be at least a hundred million humans on the Blessed Isle alone, and that's low-balling it tremendously.
A lot of people seem to have that opinion but I think it's a bit better to make this a uniquely Lore thing. Sure, Survival can let you know about some plant or whatever, but as a game mechanic it's neat to give this as a special reward to characters who have actually invested in Lore. And, even if you give this mechanic to other abilities, it's still good to restrict the Charms for it to Lore.
There's no reason to do that unless Lore is desperately lacking in anything else to do, such that you need to come up with some mechanical incentive for any player to actually buy it. There are better ways to solve this, such as collapsing the Abilities list.
And? All of them either are or were tremendously outbred by humans. Even when the Dragon Kings were "plentiful" they numbered, what, a few tens of millions, tops? Their souls are all finite, after all; there is never a new Dragon King soul, which means their population was always capped at whatever number they started at, at most. The Jadeborn, too, are far less numerous than humans and pretty much always have been; there's what, 10-20 million of them, being generous?
Meanwhile, even in the Second Age, when 90% of their population was lost to the Great Contagion/Balorian Crusade combo, 800 years later there have to be at least a hundred million humans on the Blessed Isle alone, and that's low-balling it tremendously.
Question: why have the Loom choke up over a guy who can do Gymkata when rogue elementals and demons and shit can roll around no problem? Why not just cut the mortals a break?
Pretty sure any Essence-uses make the Loom choke up (even if it's just veeeeeery little choking up), so human (being by default not Essence manipulator) would choke up much less than others.
Pretty sure any Essence-uses make the Loom choke up (even if it's just veeeeeery little choking up), so human (being by default not Essence manipulator) would choke up much less than others.
On the other hand, Human's are not naturally Essance users. This is why they have Anima's because they don't perfectly control their essence. Gods, Demon's and Elemental's on the other hand are naturally born with the capacity and ability to shape essence. Human's could be worse for the loom because of that...spillover effect, even if the amount of essence they are channelling is much less than the gods/ higher level demons, Elemental's etc.
On the other hand, Human's are not naturally Essance users. This is why they have Anima's because they don't perfectly control their essence. Gods, Demon's and Elemental's on the other hand are naturally born with the capacity and ability to shape essence. Human's could be worse for the loom because of that...spillover effect, even if the amount of essence they are channelling is much less than the gods/ higher level demons, Elemental's etc.
Possible. After all, humans were quite literally made to be weak and defenseless so that they'd function as helpless prayer batteries to supply Yu-Shan with Ambrosia. Every human who gains Enlightened Essence, whether they be Exalt, God-Blooded or just really dedicated to their studies/training, is inherently acting against his race's original reason for existing.
Which is awesome, but it doesn't exactly make the Pattern Spiders' jobs any easier.
And? All of them either are or were tremendously outbred by humans. Even when the Dragon Kings were "plentiful" they numbered, what, a few tens of millions, tops? Their souls are all finite, after all; there is never a new Dragon King soul, which means their population was always capped at whatever number they started at, at most. The Jadeborn, too, are far less numerous than humans and pretty much always have been; there's what, 10-20 million of them, being generous?
Meanwhile, even in the Second Age, when 90% of their population was lost to the Great Contagion/Balorian Crusade combo, 800 years later there have to be at least a hundred million humans on the Blessed Isle alone, and that's low-balling it tremendously.
Let us work this through.
Scroll of Fallen Races(Dragon Kings, pg 9) established that pre-Primordial War DKs were fixed at 150 million Dragon Kings, which were blasted back to 30 million by the Primordials during the War.That's around two orders of magnitude larger than the number of DBs that supposedly started the Primordial War alongside the Celestials.
The Jadeborn are ~10 million as of the Age of Sorrows(Scroll of Fallen Races, Jadeborn, pg 14) with implications that there were many more before the triple whammy of the Great Contagion, Balor's Crusade and multiple caveins; they supposedly lost 99/100 Jadeborn, and only somewhat rebuilt their numbers in a century and half of no conflict with darkbrood.
Just counting the DKs alone, that suggests that the Loom was able to handle at least 150 million native Essence users just fine.
Not counting the Lintha, or the other chtonic Primordial races who chose the wrong side, and who the victorious Exalted spent several hundred years post-War genociding. Or the elementals, or terrestrial gods.
We only know of the Lintha because enough of them survived to talk about it.
The rest are just lumped together in a nebulous pile.
On the other hand, Human's are not naturally Essance users. This is why they have Anima's because they don't perfectly control their essence. Gods, Demon's and Elemental's on the other hand are naturally born with the capacity and ability to shape essence. Human's could be worse for the loom because of that...spillover effect, even if the amount of essence they are channelling is much less than the gods/ higher level demons, Elemental's etc.
This is plausible.
But Creation supported vastly greater numbers of active human Essence wielders during the First Age, from Dragonbloods to empowered mortals to half-castes with nary a hiccup. So there is room for either interpretation, as I see it.
But Creation supported vastly greater numbers of active human Essence wielders during the First Age, from Dragonbloods to empowered mortals to half-castes with nary a hiccup. So there is room for either interpretation, as I see it.
That was also during a time when Creation as a whole cooperated with the Sidereals and where for the most part, Solars and Lunars WOULD backdown on something they were doing if a Sidereal told them 'You're going to destabilize fate'. It's a sign of the moral degradation of the Late First Age that Solars stopped holding themselves back.
There's no reason to do that unless Lore is desperately lacking in anything else to do, such that you need to come up with some mechanical incentive for any player to actually buy it. There are better ways to solve this, such as collapsing the Abilities list.
Dude, the entire conversation started with ES posting:
When it comes down to it, Lore (especially the most useful definition of Lore, "Lore is the Humanities") needs active things to do. The inability to give it active things is why the 2e corebook charms are mostly esoteric Essence things that aren't really very much in scope for Lore and are much more occult-y [1].
