You'll find countless fans of Lunars- but I guarantee you that finding any two that agree on what Lunars are/do is difficult!

My favorite thing about Lunars was the ability to git huge and other absurd shit.

I built a Roc-totem Lunar in 2E who before the 100 XP mark was able to turn into a bird with a literal 50 meter wingspan, covered in Moonsilver Superheavy Plate who had a howdah on the back with beastmen hurling bombs out of the sides. Who could breathe fire in strafing runs thanks to consuming that aspect of a Fire Elemental's power, and was constantly shrouded in a cloud of mist to make her difficult to target in the air.
 
My favorite thing about Lunars was the ability to git huge and other absurd shit.

I built a Roc-totem Lunar in 2E who before the 100 XP mark was able to turn into a bird with a literal 50 meter wingspan, covered in Moonsilver Superheavy Plate who had a howdah on the back with beastmen hurling bombs out of the sides. Who could breathe fire in strafing runs thanks to consuming that aspect of a Fire Elemental's power, and was constantly shrouded in a cloud of mist to make her difficult to target in the air.
Yeah, same. My default preference for Lunar builds was to laugh at DBT and take Towering Beast Form instead, so that you can have a massive pile of fuck you as your spirit form.

The first Lunar build I ever made had an elephant as his spirit shape, and had a Solar mate who was basically Dawn Caste Hannibal.
 
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@FBH If you want to keep the cannon Lunars, as opposed to replacing them with TAWs or making them kings of the Wyld, have you considered shoving like 200-250 of them into the Jade Prison (or equivalent)? I think it would be much easier to give the Lunars strong showings and victories without putting them into a position to overthrow the DBs and conquer Creation, when you don't have to extend that to a full 300 Celestial Exalts.

I think also shows them more respect in a sense, in that they were considered a threat during the Usurpation almost as much as the Solars, instead of just quietly slinking away into the Wyld to mope and be useless.
 
I've been working on Ex3 Dragon-Bloods for a while, finally done with the first draft of a fancy pdf.

It should have everything you need to play Dragon-Bloods in Ex3.
I am stunned. This is simply excellent, speaking as someone not very sold on Third Edition at all; as a Dragon-Blooded fan and longtime Exalted player, your Dragon-Blooded homebrew is not only excellent mechanically, but also simply visually stunning in beauty and layout.

It has been added to threadmarks, and is certainly in my bookmarks.

Please do keep up the simply wonderful work.
 
They shouldn't be the kings of the wyld, they should be kings of the edge

Heh.

That Admiral Sand isn't more prominent is a fucking tragedy. He is the real model of all an Eclipse Caste can and should be, and an example of all the things they could accomplish if they put their minds to it; distinctly unlike Swan, the actual signature Eclipse whose greatest accomplishment of narrative relevance is to be part of a love triangle, or Mirror Flag, who is a shining example of the ways that the Bronze Faction and Immaculate Order are right.

Where is the other information on Mirror Flag written? The Ex3 jumpstart uses her as the Eclipse, but the backstory given there is pretty thin.

I've been working on Ex3 Dragon-Bloods for a while, finally done with the first draft of a fancy pdf.

It should have everything you need to play Dragon-Bloods in Ex3.

You'd mentioned going back and giving the charmsets another once-over to balance the aspects with each other in terms of charm counts. Is that part of this doc, or is it a compilation of the first-round stuff?
 
Where is the other information on Mirror Flag written? The Ex3 jumpstart uses her as the Eclipse, but the backstory given there is pretty thin.
Scroll of Exalts. I couldn't say if there's more there than the jumpstart, though, I haven't read it. Given her character, it wouldn't surprise me if info on her being thin wasn't the point.

A good summary of her might be "A rakasha who Exalted as a Solar" because that's pretty much what she acts like.

Notably, she is very likely responsible for causing the iconic Moonshadow Caste to accept the offer of the Black Exaltation.
 
A headcanon I have, because I find the theodicy issues with the Sun and the "cosmic Xbox" (ugh) boring: the Sun gave up everything to make his Exalted; in a very real sense they are him. When he turned his face from Creation that meant new Solars stopped Exalting. When the Solars realized this their own conflicts grew more intense - an opponent you killed would never be replaced. The Sidereals foresaw this escalating until the Solars tore the world apart trying to be the last man standing, so they conspired to kill all of the Solars at once.

The Sun's grief at this was so great that golden tears fell from the sky, burning holes through Creation and falling into the Underworld. When after thousands of years the Sun finally stopped sobbing and looked up to face Creation once again, these shards of his own power had been corrupted by death.

In this, the Sun was not trying to seize the Games of Divinity for himself; instead he saw them as a bribe he could offer the other gods to go along with his rebellion, and as a way of organizing Yu-Shan after the war.
 
I guess I should put my money where my mouth is and post some lunar dominions, some of which I hope to put into my quest (which I'll never stop talking about).

Lunar Dominions
At the edge of the world lies a ring of fangs and claws. A ring that neither the ten thousand dragons of the world's heart, nor the fair lords beyond its edge has ever had the power to sunder. Not even the Great Contagion, not the One Eyed Crusade, not even the Empress and her blasphemous claim on creation's sword have ever truly broken the ring. Each weakened the lunars, killed many and shattered their children, but none was able to wipe them out, though it was her, this accidental dragon who claimed the world and saved it who bought the lunars closes to ruin.

For the eight centuries of her reign, they have prepared, mounted limited options and within creation made subtle weapons of men. Now she is gone, consumed, so the omens say, by her own hubris. The Sun Kings have returned, but they are weak, the realm is divided against itself. The dead walk but serve only to fight against the living.

Now is time to act.

The three types of Dominions
While the Silver Pact is not tied together as tightly as the Scarlet Empire or the Hundred Siblings, most Dominions have a specific purpose in mind when they are created, and a particular service they provide for the Silver Pact's constant wars in both the wyld and the world.

Like all things Lunars do, each Dominion has several aspects. So for instance, while the Haslanti league are primary a Coyote, who exists to bridge the gap between the lunars and the realm's trading network, they are also a crow, who's advanced military technology puts them on course to conquer across the North. While the Haltans are primarily a Cat, it also exists as a Coyote, attracting trade from both humans and the fair and funneling it on further to other dominions. Ma Ha Suchi's territory, perhaps the purist of all vengeance seeking Crows, is also a Cat, testing newer and better forms of life.

Coyote States
The Coyote States are not false, but they are truths that decieve, built over centuries by patient lunars who wish to gain some of the power of the centre of the world, or of the deeper wyld. A Coyote state is a state of normal humans or normal changlings and the fair, which has been nurtured and supported by Lunars, who appear as helpers, heroes, advisors to great women, or as great and mysterious men themselves, and shape a state which is friendly to the lunar's interests.

These states then act as go betweens between the Kingdom's of the edge of the world and those rich areas deeper on either side, allowing the lunars, seen as hostile by the leaders on both sides as hostile, to gain the benefits of these civilizations.

The best known examples of Coyote states in creation is the Haslanti league, which both have extensive trading relationships with both

Crow States
Crows are vengeful creatures, and clever. Their grudges go on beyond generations. The crow states are the front line of lunar's war, and are generally heavily fortified, and home to those of the lunar's servants best adapted to war. The people of crow states regularly deploy armies against the Silver Pact's enemies, claiming new territory and resources, and forcing those on both sides of the world's edge to accept the silver monarch's suzerinity, and to pay tribute.

The best known of the crow states in creation is the domain of Ma Ha Suchi.

Cat States
Cats are adaptive beings, and have great skill in making life pleasent. Living in human cities, cats manage their territories by agreeing times and diplomacy between themselves, and create cries which better persade humans to their will, all the while maintaining their dignity. The cat states are the lunar's experiments into better living, the end product of the Thousand Stream Rivers. When a cat state succeeds, its system is often copied by other lunar states.

Halta is also an example of a cat state, and humans and beastmen live together there, and where diplomacy with the fair is normalized.

Example Dominion
(only one right now cause I need to write a quest post)

The Amari Empire
Primary Aspect:
Crow
Secondary Aspect: Coyote

History
Above the plains of Prasad, a chain of mountains reaches to the top of the world. When the season of the rain gods come, their final dance pours water down upon the mountains, forming lakes and feeding lush plateaus in the heights. Here lie ancient temples and museums, monuments and vistas of great beauty. From some peaks, it is said you can see the dreaming sea itself. Four times in the last two centuries have the Princes of Prasad, with their chariots, their elephants, their artillery and warstriders, and their infantry all their spears, climbed the high passes. Each time they went not to pray at the temples or see the beauty, but to wrest these meadows for those who own them. Four times then have the Amari, the Free, sent them back down to the plains, carrying their dead and without their banners.

The Amari are an ancient people, a proud culture descended from the many city states of exiles who came seeking shelter in the mountains. They draw their antecedence from dispirit groups, fromArisen Empire of the far South, from refugees from the inhuman backbenders, from those caprice of dragon kings and of demons. They formed many small cities, and built temple complexes of rock without mortar, some of which last to this day. In the first age, they were not a unified kingdom, but rather a multitude of small states. Kis, and Ampac and Vanti and all the rest. From the ranks of these, several of the exalted rose, including Nazanin, a fierce of lunar who's aspect was the llama, and who taught the the Mountain and the people of the dreaming sea to ride, and became the heroine of all.

At the Usurpation, Zaratania, who held the shard of Nazanin returned to mountains with her circle, and there made her stand against the forces of the shogunate and their sidereal allies. The dragon's wrath knew no bounds. Wishing not the expense of an occupation, a long hunt for quick Zaratania and her companions, they attacked with vast brutality, reducing the kis, which was the regions largest city to a shadowlands with an artifact of dread power, then burning many of the ancient temple complexes as they hunted everywhere for the lunar.

In turn, Zaratania lead the people in a series of guerilla raids against the realm, and journeyed into the wyld to bring back strange war machines tricked from the fae. The people retreated into the hills, and fought back from hiding, or in quick rushes on horse, or llama. At last, the Dragons admitted defeat. They could not defeat the Free, and they could not find Zaratania. They retreated back down to the plains. Several more times they would come, leaving chaos and poison in their wake, but every time, the Free would rebuild. Finally, as the shogunate decayed, they came no more. Zarantania, who was by now vastly old, even for a lunar, came to her people at the end of the last people. After all the hardship they had been through together, and all the losses, she begged them to come together as one. They would be Amari, the empire of the Free, the survivors joined by the decedents of Zaratania and her companions, who were the people of Llama, and the Condor, and the Bear, and the Cat, and by those fleeing into exile from the shogunate below.

It was not the dragons that bought Amari low, but the fair. Always jealous, they nursed long grudges for the aid that Zaratania had tricked from them. After the contagion came, lapping even the high mountains, the One Eyed Crusade tore through the mountains, and sought to slay the Free and their protectors. The battles fought in those days were of a ferocity not seen since the days after the Usurpation, as the survivors of the plague unleashed all the carefully husbanded weapons from their long cold war against the shogunate against the intruders from beyond. The war raged from peak to peak, and the armies of the free were sore pressed, for they had lost too many even before the war started. The lunar Azure Sky, who held the shard of Zarantania and Nazanin bad the free hold, for a companion of hers, Cava of the changing moon sought a solution beyond the world.

Then, the sky fell. Warriors of flame shattered the Fair and those of the Free who were near them. They tore great chunks out of the mountains and flung them at the fair folk armies, creating new valleys and low places. Whole cities burned away in the aftermath, many who survived would die of the drought when the rain gods, terrified by the onslaught, did not come.

But the Free endured.

Even after sword of creation was used, the edge of the world was close, and the fair continued to fight, some crossing the border, others retreating back from deeper in creation. An army of the fair gathered for one last victory, and the free knew sorrow as more arrived. Then, treachery among the enemy! The Cataphracts of the new Fair folk fell upon the crusaders, and smote them down into the new valleys, crushed them and changed them into those shapes that they found most pleasing.

Cava had succeeded in their mission, and had beguiled another faction of the Fair from the deeper chaos, and bought them against the one eyed host. The leaders of these Rakshasi presented themselves to Azure Sky, and to the Empress and made their submission.

Amari today

Amari is an ancient empire dating back to the time of the shogunate, which has been under the protection of multiple incarnations of a powerful lunar circle. It extends down the mountain range near Parsad, where the remains of the monsoons and various high water sources make conditions livable. High pastures support horses and llama, and various other creatures. In the northern parts of the mountains, there are even high forests, where elephants and tigers roam freely. It is a beautiful country, though sometimes a strange one, as the wyld incursion and the heavy strike of the sword of creation changed things mightily. In some places, the pastures grow with rainbow bright flowers, while in others, the giant bodies of the cyclopian war machines of Balor's Crusade lie in their death throws, large as small mountains.

Most Amari settlements are at the top of hills, a series of fortified compounds of rock and mud brick, each with its own water cistern to collect rain and supplement the communal supply. Each village is governed by a Rasnan, or noble, a position subject to election on the death or retirement of the previous occupant. These elections are done on a household by household level, and usually go to the area's richest family, though they can sometimes become bosterous affairs when two or more families compete. The Rasnan's job is to distribute communal water and supplies, to collect taxes, and perform public works in the area.

The Emperor or Empress is elected for life by a congress of the Rasnan, with each having one vote for every one hundred families, or part there of, who live in the settlement they represent. This system often becomes rancorous, but it has so far prevented the kind of violence between large land holding families jockeying for power seen in many other places around creation.

Beastmen and humans live together in Amari cities, and most larger cities have a quarter for fae blooded and even full blooded fair. This relationship is not without its tension however, and most inhabitants wear several iron charms to secure themselves against possible attack. This has not kept Fae courtesans from becoming very popular among the rich or ambitious of the empire, with the chance that one's children will have the blood of the fair, and the sorcery that implies.

The balance between human and fair is maintained more than anything by the presence of a powerful circle of lunars, lead by a llama talisman shard which has reincarnated in the area many times since the first age. These lunars and the strongest of their beastmen children act as the empire's chief agents and advisors, defeating criminals and rogue spirits, and providing advise and training for the army. The lunars do not rule, but they are the kingdoms protectors. The balance has been maintained for two centuries, and so far seems to be working. Some in the Empire do still worry that the Fair have some long term plot of their own, one that will not go well for Amari's mortal citizens.

The flower of Amari's armies fight mounted, either from horse, boar, Simhata or llama back, and employ bow, fire wand, saber and lance as their weapons of choice. Some units capture giant eagles or elephants as war animals.

Most cavalry are light, employing missiles and light, face lance attacks when they have the advantage, however the Empire also employs large numbers of heavy cavalry and superheavy cataphracts. Despite favoring mounted combat, most Amari cavalry are unafraid to dismount and fight on foot if the terrain requires it, and their lances can do double duty as long spear. Gossamer and fae glass weapons are available to the richer of Amari's troops, but almost universally, the mortal warriors of Amari prefer iron or iron plated steel armour, usually lamellar or chain, with superheavy cavalry employing chain swathing on both rider and mounts.

Mortals of Amari believe that cavalry riding, and thus warfare are women's work, especially as women may be brides of Ahlat, though the Lunars have again and again tried to stamp out this belief. Infantry, when it is raised, are support troops and guerrillas, providing little more than lines of protected respite for friendly cavalry in a major clash.

Against heavy infantry forces, such as blessed isle legions or the disciplined phalanxes employed by several powers on the dreaming sea, the Amari employ charges by lancers armed with double length lances to overcome long spears, and sometimes attack enemy formations with their wyld derived war machines, behemoths and animated objects domesticated from the wyld. The Free have also been known to pay mercenaries from other people to provide heavy infantry.
 
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That sounds cool, but I don't know if I see the need for the types of Dominions.

Well, you could make it less formal, but it does make it easier for a GM who wants to think up a kind of dominion. "Okay, this is a Coyote Dominion that's based around a cuthroat pirate operation who trade with the manta ray people who live in a city in the nearby coral reef." etc.
 
I don't get the impression that first age MHS was particularly useless, though second age MHS may regard his previous self with a level of self hatred, he's been through a lot. He was obviously a hedonist, but if you read, say, DoTFA's comics, you can also see the start of what he would later become there. "No mercy to apostates" etc.
I'm not saying he was useless in the First Age. I'm saying he's useless, period. Again: He is squatting in the grim ruin of his ancient manse, raping and pillaging the surrounding area without point or purpose, at the head of a barbarian horde. Along with canon Raksi, I bluntly regard him as one of the worst-written NPC's of the game line, because there's nothing interesting about them. They're just evil shitbags waiting for your players to kill them should they have the power to do so.

Fucking hell, Lillun at least managed to pose a "are you on the right side?" question to players, even if her writeup did so by clumsily grabbing the most childishly puerile shock value it could find, but canon Ma-Ha-Suchi has never offered the game anything but a straightforward fight scene as a dungeon end-boss.

Yeah, you can rewrite him to try and cast him as somebody doing something worthwhile. You can make him the 'wolf that wishes to build an empire, and is building the tools to do that.' rather than the Wolf At Civilisation's Door that TAW went with. I don't know why you'd specifically want to do that with Ma-Ha-Suchi, but whatever, you could try to do it. The problem is that rewriting this kind of thing essentially means rewriting the entire history of the setting, because if you want to assert that 300 Celestials can change the world, you need to show that they've, you know, changed the world, and you can't do that, because the world's history is fixed. Maybe 3e could've done that because they had official carte blanche to write the setting history from the ground up, but that ship has frikkin' sailed, y'know? In order to give Lunars their proper due, if you demand that this is their proper due, you pretty much have to homebrew the whole game.

There are, essentially, two ways to take Lunars as they are. The first is Jon Chung's vision, which is to drag them back to the role of mad princes of Chaos. As he's said, this gives them some big, dramatic accomplishments to puff them up while preserving the state of the setting, and gives the Wyld some usable setting actors that don't break the game. Yes, it turns the Wyld as a realm into something subordinate to the Exalted. That's both good, because the game is called Exalted and all the major realms are exemplified by 'their' Exalted, and also entirely of a piece with the story of the Wyld, because fundamentally, the story of the Wyld can be summed up as saying that The Wyld Doesn't Matter.

I love the Fair Folk. I really do, they're what got me into Exalted, and the whole mythos of European Fae is an unfailing lure to me in fiction. But the Wyld was introduced as a place the Titans bummed around in until they said, "this place sucks, nothing we do can matter here, let's build a world of permanence." Simply by dint of its existence, Creation defines all of the Wyld in relation to it. It is subordinate to Creation, because the game is about Creation.

The second option is to accept that Lunars cannot have any vast, setting-shaking accomplishment of their own, that the history of the setting is fixed, and they can't change it. This is not, in point of fact, a terrible thing. For all that the game hypes them up as epic heroes of myth, most Exalted don't change the world. Millions of Dragonblooded fought the Balorian Crusade, and most of them simply died. At best you could say they were bit characters who bought the time for a few other people to actually change the world. Most of the Exalted squander their potential, and the ones who don't, most of them change their worlds, their city, their kingdom, their country. Small worlds, but no less meaningful for it.

Having accepted this, you can then give Lunars a great heap of middleweight achievements -their heroes, their cities, their kingdoms, their countries- to give the impression of Lunars Out There, Doing Stuff, but nevertheless not overturning the shape of the setting. This seems to be what you want to do, @FBH, with your talk of Lunar Dominions - although I'd urge you to ditch the talk of the Thousand Streams River, because it is, bluntly, a piece of head-in-the-clouds crap that doesn't work with Exalted as a world, and is thoroughly tainted in the minds of the community by past associations.

This is also, uh... Exactly what TAW did with Lunars, by giving them NPC writeup after NPC writeup as examples of Lunars Out There, Doing Stuff, filling in the setting with their kingdoms. Raksi runs the bizarre bazaar of Rathess, Koworai Suhal reigns as the Aquamarine Emperor, Nekay Pai has built an island nation of the living and dead in harmony. Others still; Greensleeves Yu, arms merchant of the impossible, Snowy Victory, crime lord of Prazen, Shinami, the Black Baroness of the South. More. It's a very slick piece of game design, because it both provides a sense of what Lunars have been doing in the setting while also giving players a wealth of examples to inspire their Lunars.
I've been working on Ex3 Dragon-Bloods for a while, finally done with the first draft of a fancy pdf.

It should have everything you need to play Dragon-Bloods in Ex3.
Bookmarking this for after my exams.
 
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The second option is to accept that Lunars cannot have any vast, setting-shaking accomplishment of their own, that the history of the setting is fixed, and they can't change it. This is not, in point of fact, a terrible thing. For all that the game hypes them up as epic heroes of myth, most Exalted don't change the world. Millions of Dragonblooded fought the Balorian Crusade, and most of them simply died. At best you could say they were bit characters who bought the time for a few other people to actually change the world. Most of the Exalted squander their potential, and the ones who don't, most of them change their worlds, their city, their kingdom, their country. Small worlds, but no less meaningful for it.

Having accepted this, you can then give Lunars a great heap of middleweight achievements -their heroes, their cities, their kingdoms, their countries- to give the impression of Lunars Out There, Doing Stuff, but nevertheless not overturning the shape of the setting. This seems to be what you want to do, @FBH, with your talk of Lunar Dominions - although I'd urge you to ditch the talk of the Thousand Streams River, because it is, bluntly, a piece of head-in-the-clouds crap that doesn't work with Exalted as a world, and is thoroughly tainted in the minds of the community by past associations.

I don't really agree.

Like, the text of the setting is just text. You can rewrite it anyway you want. Hell, third edition already supports the idea that there's big nasty lunar kingdoms at the edge of the world doing their own thing and running their own societies.

Also TSR is great and I will fight you if you say otherwise. It's a great excuse to have all manner of really odd societies around, and make some truely strange places for the PCs to visit or to serve as pro or antagonists.
 
There is also the option of having there be more Magnificent Jaguars out there, who we asleep until recently and thus have the sanity and power to make a difference, but have not had the same amount of time as the not-sane Lunars to get things done.

I think it would be pretty cool to have a couple of Lunars who, say, hid out in the cities of the Dragon Kings and hibernated until the Sidereals were less watchful, and then wake up a few thousand years later alongside a small number of Dragon King Sleepers, who then work together to restore what was lost to the Contagion and Crusade.
 
The second option is to accept that Lunars cannot have any vast, setting-shaking accomplishment of their own, that the history of the setting is fixed, and they can't change it. This is not, in point of fact, a terrible thing. For all that the game hypes them up as epic heroes of myth, most Exalted don't change the world. Millions of Dragonblooded fought the Balorian Crusade, and most of them simply died. At best you could say they were bit characters who bought the time for a few other people to actually change the world. Most of the Exalted squander their potential, and the ones who don't, they change their worlds, their city, their kingdom, their country. Small worlds, but no less meaningful for it. Having accepted this, you can then give Lunars a great heap of middleweight achievements -their heroes, their cities, their kingdoms, their countries- to give the impression of Lunars Out There, Doing Stuff, but nevertheless not overturning the shape of the setting. This seems to be what you want to do, @FBH, with your talk of Lunar Dominions - although I'd urge you to ditch the talk of the Thousand Streams River, because it is, bluntly, a piece of head-in-the-clouds crap that doesn't work with Exalted as a world, and is thoroughly tainted in the minds of the community by past associations.

Yep. TAW was fundamentally "write Lunars a new Charmset that can replace canon Lunars", so what it did was a bunch of sleight of hand to make Lunars bad at organisational-scale stuff but Solar-equal at a personal scale which meant that they could slot into the canon setting without too many changes [1].
  • The thing I'm proudest of, the Warden keyword, makes Lunars super effective against Outsiders, a term roughly equivalent to "creatures of darkness" to Solars... except Lunars are Outsiders. So every Lunar has native Charmtech for fucking up Lunars, which means they're good at turning on each other and can easily say "that other Lunar? He's not a person". It's a wonderful move that makes Lunars individually stronger, but is a constant thing fucking up their attempts to organise on a large scale because it's much harder for them to shut down internal dissent and much easier for them to turn on each other.
  • Their Attributes don't particularly have any strong themes enabling Solar-scale organisational control. Charisma makes you a lord in touch with the land, less than the people. Manipulation is focussed on trading, deals, and weird blood magic. Intelligence lets you build bonds of "our people/not our people", but that just makes your people clannish, not well organised. It means that Lunars are forced to rely on personal skill and large dice pools - and they're up against DBs who do have specific Bureaucracy magic.
  • The history gave them responsibility for nearly taking down the Shogunate - and then their iconoclastic, individualist, "like herding cats" nature kicked in and the young Lunars got sick of being used as cannon fodder by bitter old men and women and the Silver Pact fell as an organised group. That reduced the Silver Pact down to maybe 60 Lunars, and meant instead the Lunar groups are regional networks who are basically organised like Discworld witches.
  • Their Charmtech had easy access to "no, don't fucking tell me what to do" so older Lunars were in a bad position for shanghaing young Lunars into their organisation.
[1] And the fact it was so easy to do that despite completely rewriting their Charmset was very telling. Excising canon Ma Ha to replace with TAW Ma Ha changes very little, beyond considerably reducing the amount of beastman-on-woman rape in the setting.

Also TSR is great and I will fight you if you say otherwise. It's a great excuse to have all manner of really odd societies around, and make some truely strange places for the PCs to visit or to serve as pro or antagonists.

Then why are most of the TSR societies retconned?

They're not Lunar achievements. Not originally. Credit got handed to Lunars in 2e. The societies could arise without Lunars because they did, and then the gameline later went "Oh, yeah, Lunars did that".
 
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I don't really agree.

Like, the text of the setting is just text. You can rewrite it anyway you want. Hell, third edition already supports the idea that there's big nasty lunar kingdoms at the edge of the world doing their own thing and running their own societies.
What exactly are you disagreeing with? Because, yeah, there's plenty of room to have some big nasty Lunar kingdoms at the edge of the world, just like there's plenty of room to have some big nasty Shadowland kingdoms, or Elemental-run republics, or whatever. As a game, Exalted is built for you to slot down homebrew nations on an as-needed basis. But if you want some of those places to change the world, well, then you're into 'rewriting the entire game' territory, which isn't very viable, y'know?
Also TSR is great and I will fight you if you say otherwise. It's a great excuse to have all manner of really odd societies around, and make some truely strange places for the PCs to visit or to serve as pro or antagonists.
Because white wolf is really really bad at actually making use of the concepts it comes up with and at least as of 2nd edition, apparently all but allergic to adding new elements to the setting?
Sorry, but you're not getting it.

Here's the point: You don't need the Thousand Streams River for that. You don't need an excuse. That's just Creation, period. Like, Halta wasn't meaningfully different before 2e rewrote it to be a Lunar project. Chiarascuro was still an awesome city of glass spires and horse lords before it was retconned so that Tammuz was its Secret Master All Along. Metagalapa is still a bunch of hawk riders living on a flying mountain, with no Lunar influence in sight. Creation just has this stuff. It's a vast, weird world that's chock full of wonders and terrors.

The Thousand Streams River is an unnecessary sop to Lunars. It's trying to give them cheap praise for a Big Special Thing that isn't big, or special, or even really theirs. Society-shaping is just something the Exalted do, it's in no way uniquely Lunar. You could change some names and republish practically the entire Thousand Streams River chapter in the corebook as an Exalted Nation-Shaping 101 player aide for any splat, and it would fit right in.

And then on top of that it supposedly has a goal of making societies that can stand on their own without Exalted aid? Good bloody luck with that, Exalted as a game and a setting doesn't work that way.

(Meanwhile, TAW gives them a bunch of NPC writeups, because you know what is uniquely Lunar? That they're the biggest group of Celestial Exalted who have been operating in Creation since the Usurpation, with survivors from every era.)
 
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What exactly are you disagreeing with? Because, yeah, there's plenty of room to have some big nasty Lunar kingdoms at the edge of the world, just like there's plenty of room to have some big nasty Shadowland kingdoms, or Elemental-run republics, or whatever. As a game, Exalted is built for you to slot down homebrew nations on an as-needed basis. But if you want some of those places to change the world, well, then you're into 'rewriting the entire game' territory, which isn't very viable, y'know?

It seems like there's about a billion home brew projects that reticon creation's history across this thread.

Hell, 3rd edition makes the idea of an ongoing lunar/dragon blooded war for the world cannon. All I'm doing is making it a more active part of the setting.

Sorry, but you're not getting it.

Here's the point: You don't need the Thousand Streams River for that. You don't need an excuse. That's just Creation, period. Like, Halta wasn't meaningfully different before 2e rewrote it to be a Lunar problem. Chiarascuro was still an awesome city of glass spires and horse lords before it was retconned so that Tammuz was its Secret Master All Along. Metagalapa is still a bunch of hawk riders living on a flying mountain, with no Lunar influence in sight. Creation just has this stuff. It's a vast, weird world that's chock full of wonders and terrors.

The Thousand Streams River is an unnecessary sop to Lunars. It's trying to give them cheap praise for a Big Special Thing that isn't big, or special, or even really theirs. Society-shaping is just something the Exalted do, it's in no way uniquely Lunar. You could republish practically the entire Thousand Streams River chapter in the corebook with the serial numbers filed off as an Exalted Nation-Shaping 101 player aide for any splat, and it would fit right in.

I don't understand what the issue is here. While some TSR is reticon, I'm pretty sure that Lunars have been creating societies since first edition. Like, the Haslanti league is something a lunar did in 1st edition, and I'm pretty sure Halta is too, though I might be misremembering.

Why not have lunars going around building strange societies? It seems like it would be an interesting thing for them to do, and for lunar PCs to do.

The issue is the fact that white wolf didn't add any new content when they came up with it.
 
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I don't understand what the issue is here. While some TSR is reticon, I'm pretty sure that Lunars have been creating societies since first edition. Like, the Haslanti league is something a lunar did in 1st edition, and I'm pretty sure Halta is too, though I might be misremembering.

Why not have lunars going around building strange societies?
The tribes who founded the Haslanti League were led together by Gerd Marrow-Eater but not controlled or manipulated by him; in fact, after the nascent Haslanti League beat back the Guild, they begged him to stay, but he left because he wanted it to be a mortal civilization that didn't need the gods. The source of this is chapter three of Bastions of The North, page 85-88.
 
The tribes who founded the Haslanti League were led together by Gerd Marrow-Eater but not controlled or manipulated by him; in fact, after the nascent Haslanti League beat back the Guild, they begged him to stay, but he left because he wanted it to be a mortal civilization that didn't need the gods. The source of this is chapter three of Bastions of The North, page 85-88.

I'm not really sure I see the difference. Like, the method differs, but the goal, of setting up a cool society that can endure in the world is the same.
 
As a game, Exalted is built for you to slot down homebrew nations on an as-needed basis.
I got the impression that this was the intent, but then the setting failed massively at implementation. At least, that's what I got out of 2e; this not being the case in 3e is one of the reasons I like its map so much better.

And then on top of that it supposedly has a goal of making societies that can stand on their own without Exalted aid? Good bloody luck with that, Exalted as a game and a setting doesn't work that way.
You had me following along up until here. Then you sorta lost me.

Unless Halta, Chiaroscuro, and Mount Metagalapa were actually built by Sidereals, Solars, or Dragon-Blooded instead of Lunars in 1e, and/or were steadily rotting nations on the verge of collapse (which your assertion that Halta was not meaningfully different and Chiarascuro was still awesome indicates that they were not), then wouldn't their existence be evidence that Exalted as a game and a setting totally can work that way? :???:
 
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It seems like there's about a billion home brew projects that reticon creation's history across this thread.

Hell, 3rd edition makes the idea of an ongoing lunar/dragon blooded war for the world cannon. All I'm doing is making it a more active part of the setting.
Very few of those are retcons. Most are just homebrewing more stuff into Exalted where there's empty space. That's very, very different to "I'm going to rewrite the entire history of the game to give the Lunars their turn in the spotlight." which is a significantly larger undertaking than just writing some Lunar-centric societies.
I don't understand what the issue is here. While some TSR is reticon, I'm pretty sure that Lunars have been creating societies since first edition. Like, the Haslanti league is something a lunar did in 1st edition, and I'm pretty sure Halta is too, though I might be misremembering.

Why not have lunars going around building strange societies?
Back in 1e, Halta just Was. The Lunars had nothing to do with them, and ManusDomine explains the Haslanti above. They were mortal nations, begun by mortals, hence why the TSR is a sop; it's trying to make out that it's some big special thing that the Lunars made them, when a) no they didn't, and b) even if they had, so what? They're just regular nations by Creation's standards.

As for your question... Nothing! But by itself, that's not some Big Special Lunar Thing. That's just what the Exalted do. You can write a bunch of Lunar dominions into the setting, and they can be pretty cool. That's what TAW did. Like I said, this is the 'heap of middleweight achievements' approach.
 
I'm not really sure I see the difference. Like, the method differs, but the goal, of setting up a cool society that can endure in the world is the same.
But he didn't do it? The mortals did; Gerd helped them in war three times, and left before they set up their society. In fact, a Lunar actively hampered their development for hundreds of years before; Arvida, a First Age Lunar kept them from building any cities or uniting before the Immaculates killed her in RY 412 and they started advancing on their own before the Guild came and oppressed them.
 
Very few of those are retcons. Most are just homebrewing more stuff into Exalted where there's empty space. That's very, very different to "I'm going to rewrite the entire history of the game to give the Lunars their turn in the spotlight." which is a significantly larger undertaking than just writing some Lunar-centric societies.

Given that Lunar Dominions are third edition cannon, this seems kind of a weak argument to make.

Back in 1e, Halta just Was. The Lunars had nothing to do with them, and ManusDomine explains the Haslanti above. They were mortal nations, begun by mortals, hence why the TSR is a sop; it's trying to make out that it's some big special thing that the Lunars made them, when a) no they didn't, and b) even if they had, so what? They're just regular nations by Creation's standards.

As for your question... Nothing! But by itself, that's not some Big Special Lunar Thing. That's just what the Exalted do. You can write a bunch of Lunar dominions into the setting, and they can be pretty cool. That's what TAW did. Like I said, this is the 'heap of middleweight achievements' approach.

Halta is mentioned as being protected by lunars all the way back to first edition, if that has any kind of drive for you.

The point I take from TSR is not that lunars are trying to make societies, but lunars are trying to make societies that survive and prosper and are powerful even if they don't directly rule them.

But he didn't do it? The mortals did; Gerd helped them in war three times, and left before they set up their society. In fact, a Lunar actively hampered their development for hundreds of years before; Arvida, a First Age Lunar kept them from building any cities or uniting before the Immaculates killed her in RY 412 and they started advancing on their own before the Guild came and oppressed them.

He helped them three times that they know of. And then SOMEHOW they had a whole heap of good luck which turned this little group of semi-sedentary barbarians into a modern nation with the world's largest air force.

SOMEHOW.

The fact that he's got no interest in directly running the league doesn't mean he didn't help create it.
 
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