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General Exalted Thread

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FBH said:
Given that Lunar Dominions are third edition cannon, this seems kind of a weak argument to make.
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It's an argument that adding more Lunar nations doesn't require rewriting the setting, because it's not giving Lunars any Big Special World-Changing Thing. Which is fine. I'm a big proponent of TAW, so I'm obviously in favour of the heap of middleweights approach.
ichypa said:
You had me following along up until here. Then you sorta lost me.

Unless Halta, Chiaroscuro, and Mount Metagalapa were actually built by Sidereals, Solars, or Dragon-Blooded instead of Lunars in 1e, and/or were steadily rotting nations on the verge of collapse (which your assertion that Halta was not meaningfully different and Chiarascuro was still awesome indicates that they were not), then would their existence be evidence that Exalted as a game and a setting totally can work that way? :???:
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FBH said:
The point I take from TSR is not that lunars are trying to make societies, but lunars are trying to make societies that survive and prosper and are powerful even if they don't directly rule them.
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Mortals can totally build nations, and those nations can work. But the Thousand Streams River of 2e is run with the goal of building mortal nations that can run under their own power without Exalted influence, and that's just... not workable, because any nation without Exalted that opposes one with Exalted, is going to lose.
 
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FBH said:
I'm not really sure I see the difference. Like, the method differs, but the goal, of setting up a cool society that can endure in the world is the same.
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Well, obviously, the difference is than in 1e you had all these cool civilizations that existed without Exalt influence, and in 2e you have all these cool civilizations directed by Lunars with the objective to make them, in some undefined future, free from exalt influence.

Basically, 2e lunars role is take control of civilizations that worked perfectly fine in their own, with the objective ok making them work without being controlled by Exalts.

(Clearly, the most efficient path to fullfil their goal is killing themselves).
 
Broken25 said:
Well, obviously, the difference is than in 1e you had all these cool civilizations that existed without Exalt influence, and in 2e you have all these cool civilizations directed by Lunars with the objective to make them, in some undefined future, free from exalt influence.
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There's not, IMHO, a lot of reason you can't have both.

TSR is just one of those things that I find kind of inexplicable in how it's disliked.
 
Imrix said:
Mortals can totally build nations, and those nations can work. But the Thousand Streams River of 2e is run with the goal of building mortal nations that can run under their own power without Exalted influence, and that's just... not workable, because any nation without Exalted that opposes one with Exalted, is going to lose.
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Ahhhh. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense than "lol no it can't happen at all," which was what I thought you were saying. Even the examples of TSR nations all still have outcastes and various powerful God-Bloods working for them.
 
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3e seems to have run with the idea that the airship capabilities and other knowledge that the Haslanti possess is derived from the ruins of Bagrash Kol's Empire, though I don't know if it supposes that to be the original source of them or anything like that.

I liked that, as it's fun to have more than just the First Age to inform year zero.
 
Xyzarach said:
By following ancient tribal songs to find the First Age ruin of the flying city that was the original source of these people, which even 2e says that the Lunars had no idea about.
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I guess.

I think it's much more interesting if the lunars lead them on. Or, better yet, if the lunars gave them some techniques and basic understanding of chemistry, and then the Haslanti figured out the rest for themselves.

Edit: I'm not super happy with the idea that the Haslanti got their designs out of some ancient ruin. Let some 2nd age civilization figure this shit out on their own.

I really wish we could stop arguing about this , I'm worried I'm pissing everyone off and stopping them voting on my quest :(
 
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FBH said:
TSR is just one of those things that I find kind of inexplicable in how it's disliked.
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In my experience, it has more to do with the history of the community than anything particularly awful about the material. When MoEP: Lunars was released in 2e, the Thousand Streams River was billed as this Big Special World-Changing Thing of the Lunars, it was Why They Mattered in the setting. Only it's an unnecessary sop that's built on retcons and trying to make out that what the Exalted in general do is a Special Lunar Thing when Lunars do it, because, um, Lunars are doing it. The ultimate goal of the Thousand Streams River is impossible, but the journey is worthwhile, it's just... not nearly as big a deal as it wants you to think it is.
 
Imrix said:
In my experience, it has more to do with the history of the community than anything particularly awful about the material. When MoEP: Lunars was released in 2e, the Thousand Streams River was billed as this Big Special World-Changing Thing of the Lunars, it was Why They Mattered in the setting. Only it's an unnecessary sop that's built on retcons and trying to make out that what the Exalted in general do is a Special Lunar Thing when Lunars do it, because, um, Lunars are doing it. The ultimate goal of the Thousand Streams River is impossible, but the journey is worthwhile, it's just... not nearly as big a deal as it wants you to think it is.
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I don't think it's a big deal. I think it's like, a cool thing that lunars can have to do.

Like, maybe the way it was sold was done but I don't see anything wrong with it as a concept, or as a concept of something that lunars do in a way that's peculiar to them. Yet over and over again I hear about how lunars can't do it, and it made no changes to the setting, and it just showed how useless they are, and just streams of dislike. None of which is true, even under 2nd edition mechanics, lunars have some amazing social charms that work on large groups, and a lot of ability to effect societies.

I guess I don't understand the impulse to turn upon some setting element with great vengeance and anger because white wolf screwed up the implementation.
 
FBH said:
I don't think it's a big deal. I think it's like, a cool thing that lunars can have to do.
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Yeah, but my point is that you're coming at the idea late, after all the fuss has died down. Keep in mind that 1e Lunars was utterly awful, so there was a lot of pressure and expectation on 2e Lunars. People weren't angry in a vacuum.

The TSR honestly isn't a terrible idea, on its own merits it's just kind of "meh, so what?" but in the wider context the idea has been poisoned, so my advice about not using the term was mostly intended of a "you will be taken more seriously/be received better if you do not use this term." variety.
 
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ManusDomine said:
"Dragon-Blooded only exist to serve the Solar Exalted."

I fully, and entirely understand that impulse.
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That doesn't seem like it's much of a setting element given the dragon blooded killed all the solars and stuck their souls into a giant box.

Imrix said:
Yeah, but my point is that you're coming at the idea late, after all the fuss has died down. Keep in mind that 1e Lunars was utterly awful, so there was a lot of pressure and expectations on 2e Lunars. People weren't angry in a vacuum.

The TSR honestly isn't a terrible idea, on its own merits it's just kind of "meh, so what?" but in the wider context the idea has been poisoned, so my advice about not using the term was mostly intended of a "you will be taken more seriously/be received better if you do not use this term." variety.
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How long have you been playing exalted? Cause I think I started playing something like 2003.

Point is, I know how bad first edition lunars was, and honestly, I think 2nd edition lunars is legitimately cool, even if it has some goofy stuff in it, like the Chauspuro thing.
 
FBH said:
Uh, I wouldn't exactly call stopping the Balorian Crusade or building the realm or all the other stuff around that nothing.
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The Dragon-Blooded didn't do that. The Scarlet Empress did that, with heavy Sidereal assistance, and the whole point of her existence is that everything she built is imploding now that she's gone. I don't consider that truly contributing anything to the world anymore than I consider an Etch-A-Sketch that hasn't been shaken yet to be truly art.

Edit: Also, I won't ever find "well they beat the Solars and imprisoned them one time" a convincing argument, because that was back when there were millions of them and the Elemental Dragon's blood ran much thicker, with knowledge of powerful Purity Charms that let them leverage the power of their bloodlines. Modern Dragon-Blooded have none of that.
 
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Imrix said:
... Seriously? Cripes, I misread you.
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I feel like 2nd edition lunars honestly died for 1st editions sins. Like, if second edition had been first edition, nobody would have complained about it.

The problem was that it was trying to fight the inertia of 1st edition lunars, who were mechanically awful and had bad fluff and no part in the setting.

ichypa said:
The Dragon-Blooded didn't do that. The Scarlet Empress did that, with heavy Sidereal assistance, and the whole point of her existence is that everything she built is imploding now that she's gone. I don't consider that truly contributing anything to the world anymore than I consider an Etch-A-Sketch that hasn't been shaken yet to be truly art.
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Last time I checked, the Scarlet Empress was a dragon blooded, and she absolutely did do that, with her sworn brotherhood, with no assistance from any terrestrials.

She set everything up to explode when she was gone because she's Stalin.
 
Broken25 said:
That's why she wants people to believe, certainly.

But really, it doesn't work that way. The Scarlet success was built upon the hundred of thousand of dead DB that died killing rakshas. And the Realm is much more than its monarch.
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Also the direct corpses and stripped souls of her sworn brotherhood.

I actually think the Scarlet Empress herself is a really interesting character and one of the good things in exalted. Because she's actually a grey area. A woman who did save the world, but then turned into a tyrant obsessed with her own survival.

I just wish they'd give us some similar portrayals of dragon blooded who are actually around. Mnenon is for instance, kind of inexcusable as a character IMHO, because her aesthetic, manner, and backstory are all super interesting and charming, but her actual agenda and character are like... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. "I want power for power sake! I'm my mother but worse!"

How boring. If she was so demotivated, she'd just sit around and study sorcery all day, which she obviously loves and is good at, rather than trying something as hard as getting to the Scarlet Throne.
 
For me, V'Neef was always the most interesting of the Pretenders to the Throne. Yeah yeah, you got the Roseblack and all, but V'Neef is that one element that everyone overlooks that I think is unfair to her, considering she's basically the end product of a Dragonblooded Eugenics program, and all signs pointed to her genuinely being the Empress's favorite child, extraordinarily talented, and probably the one to actually be named the Empress's Heir Apparent if she ever decided to do such a thing. And instead everyone focuses on Mnemon and Ejava. Le sigh.
 
FBH said:
Last time I checked, the Scarlet Empress was a dragon blooded, and she absolutely did do that, with her sworn brotherhood, with no assistance from any terrestrials.

She set everything up to explode when she was gone because she's Stalin.
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Double-checking my sources reveals that Sidereal involvement was just a suspicion, though setting things up to deliberately fail is still pretty much the opposite of "contribution" because it means that any benefit your existence brought was transient.

And if any Dragon-Blooded could accomplish something as great as what she did, why haven't there been more great Dragon-Blooded heroes, which there should be by sheer probability?

Broken25 said:
That's why she wants people to believe, certainly.

But really, it doesn't work that way. The Scarlet success was built upon the hundred of thousand of dead DB that died killing rakshas. And the Realm is much more than its monarch.
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Right, and what impactful things have more than about 5-6 of the Realm's Dragon-Blooded besides its monarch done as of late?

FBH said:
Also the direct corpses and stripped souls of her sworn brotherhood.

I actually think the Scarlet Empress herself is a really interesting character and one of the good things in exalted. Because she's actually a grey area. A woman who did save the world, but then turned into a tyrant obsessed with her own survival.

I just wish they'd give us some similar portrayals of dragon blooded who are actually around. Mnenon is for instance, kind of inexcusable as a character IMHO, because her aesthetic, manner, and backstory are all super interesting and charming, but her actual agenda and character are like... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. "I want power for power sake! I'm my mother but worse!"

How boring. If she was so demotivated, she'd just sit around and study sorcery all day, which she obviously loves and is good at, rather than trying something as hard as getting to the Scarlet Throne.
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This, I completely agree with.

One thing I would have liked there to be in the Dragon-Blooded's fluff was the idea of, essentially, "heroic Dragon-Blooded." Since the Terrestrial Exaltation is determined by lineage, and not merit or destiny, I think it would have been interesting to have DBs who were more than the legions of their brethren, who were as far above regular DBs as heroic mortals are above regular mortals. I'd love it if there were more Scarlet Empresses, more Roseblacks, more Rings of Ledaal Catala.

But there are not.

The_Reptile_ said:
For me, V'Neef was always the most interesting of the Pretenders to the Throne. Yeah yeah, you got the Roseblack and all, but V'Neef is that one element that everyone overlooks that I think is unfair to her, considering she's basically the end product of a Dragonblooded Eugenics program, and all signs pointed to her genuinely being the Empress's favorite child, extraordinarily talented, and probably the one to actually be named the Empress's Heir Apparent if she ever decided to do such a thing. And instead everyone focuses on Mnemon and Ejava. Le sigh.
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She deliberately doesn't throw her hat in the ring because of all that, because those factors make her the #1 person to take down in the event of a power struggle, as the rule of thumb for new monarchs is to murder anyone with a better claim to the throne than you.
 
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