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General Exalted Thread

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Enjou said:
IIRC the rules for Infernal Excellencies are that your stunt has to use three of the italicized keywords in a valid fashion OR apply to the "any action" case, but is completely negated if you do the case where it's not allowed to apply.

So, a stunt where murderhobo Infernal "sadistically inflicts an infernal blight upon his hated foe" would allow you to use the excellency, but if you also had to hold back so that you don't catch a bunch of citizens in it as collateral the excellency could not apply.
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That's not true - there's no hard and fast rule on the number of terms required.

Article:
Like their lesser creations, the Yozis can channel Essence to make themselves more competent at tasks. Befitting their nature, however, the Yozis do not think in terms of innate talent or learned skill (i.e., Attributes or Abilities), but rather according to the concepts they embody. Thus, Malfeas is mightiest when he takes a direct approach, while the Ebon Dragon must act indirectly and subtly to exert his full glory. So long as the action in question meets the criteria established for the Yozi in question, this Charm can enhance actions using any combination of Attribute and/or Ability. Only one iteration of First (Yozi) Excellency may improve a given action.

The Storyteller should adjudicate the applicability of this Charm as he would judge applicability of specialties and stunts, rewarding players who work to stay in theme and denying those who would push these Excellencies into universally applicable bonuses. As always, clear and consistent rulings will go a long way to keeping players happy. Infernals must learn each Yozi's Excellency separately. Furthermore, a character can and must purchase each version of the Charm a number of times equal to her Essence rating as a Training effect when she first learns the Excellency or upon raising her Essence later. Consequently, each Excellency taken at character creation needs two Charm slots (assuming Essence 2), so players should plan Charm selections accordingly.

First (Yozi) Excellency adds dice to enhance valid actions using the same costs and rules as the First Excellency of the Lawgivers (see Exalted, pp. 183). If the action uses only an Attribute or Ability and not a combination of the two, the dice limit is the (used trait + Essence) instead. The italicized words and phrases in the descriptions below provide the core themes of each Yozi purview. The more of these relate to a given action, the more likely that a Storyteller should consider the action eligible for enhancement with the Excellency.
 
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Hmm...

If you're still taking suggestions, @EarthScorpion - a long-lost and hidden demense aspected to a Primordial that no longer exists. A river on the edge of the Wyld that was once touched by Adrian, say, or a stone that still faintly glows a pale white from the touch of Ruvelia's light.
 
So I was talking to @100thlurker earlier about the realm, and he came up with a very different spin on the whole Scarlet Empire with me.

Basically, the Scarlet Empire is an Empire not of troops, nor even of dragon blooded, but rather of food. The blessed isle generates 5 harvests of rice a year, and has perfect weather. The Realm also controls the Lap, which is like, the next most fertile place in creation (probably as fertile as the blessed isle actually, given everything it has). So, rather than raising great legions of blessed isle folks, what the Scarlet Empire probably did, or does, was just pay off tributaries with access to this gigantic glut of food, and only occasionally launch military strikes (using mostly local armies they've paid off and officered with their own people) to suppress those who won't roll over and accept prosperity.

Combine this with the Immaculate faith, and divine collective bargaining, and you've got a system that's more than anything successful because those who join up become more prosperous than those who attempt to make their way outside of it. If you're a Northern or Southern city, you may even be supporting your whole population off the rice and grain produced in the Lap and the Blessed Isle and shipped too you.

All this is also going to lead to massive wealth disparity, because the best way to exploit all this is just massive elite estates (not that those don't exist in exalted as written), with basically slave labour or next thing too it working in the fields constantly to pull more and more food in. Divine soil doesn't get depleted, so you don't need to exploit marginal land, just keep pouring out the rice. All of the rice, forever.

On the blessed isle itself, it also means you've got a serious bandit problem. Nobody is going to want to bother collecting 5 harvests a year, not even in the long years of creation, and given how fertile the blessed isle is it's absurdly easy to survive without any reference to the empire. The Empire under the Empress would probably have been mounting almost constant swept operations to get rid of those who decided that the life of constant rice harvesting wasn't for them. These 'bandits' would also make excellent troops for the great houses now the empire has fallen, and maybe even for the empress when the empire was going as a way to suck them back into the system.

There's also a lot of stuff Lurker talks about about cyclic migration which I don't quite understand and would need to reference him about :V
 
FBH said:
There's also a lot of stuff Lurker talks about about cyclic migration which I don't quite understand and would need to reference him about :V
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Basically I was suggesting that in the long term five harvests a year is simply unsustainable workload that pressures most of the labor to flee, whether to marginal zones or to other regions where conditions are more rewarding. As these regions bleed off people and cease to produce four-five harvests, others will be working up to them as the opportunity offered by the labor influx creates opportunities for landlords to fully exploit the potential maximum yield. It's possible for them to maintain an equilibrium for some time, particularly through martial means - quite coincidentally the Realm has Wyld Hunts - that return labor to the fields from marginal zones or through commercial human trafficking, but not indefinitely. You would have enormous currents of cyclical internal migration within the Realm and sometimes even the radical, possibly violent, destabilizing of regions from the consequences of overexploitation. In such situations you might even find marginal communities legitimizing themselves as the new order in such provinces, and being recognized as such, resulting in even more population churn.
 
100thlurker said:
Basically I was suggesting that in the long term five harvests a year is simply unsustainable workload that pressures most of the labor to flee, whether to marginal zones or to other regions where conditions are more rewarding. As these regions bleed off people and cease to produce four-five harvests, others will be working up to them as the opportunity offered by the labor influx creates opportunities for landlords to fully exploit the potential maximum yield. It's possible for them to maintain an equilibrium for some time, particularly through martial means - quite coincidentally the Realm has Wyld Hunts - that return labor to the fields from marginal zones or through commercial human trafficking, but not indefinitely. You would have enormous currents of cyclical internal migration within the Realm and sometimes even the radical, possibly violent, destabilizing of regions from the consequences of overexploitation. In such situations you might even find marginal communities legitimizing themselves as the new order in such provinces, and being recognized as such, resulting in even more population churn.
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So how much extra harvesting could be done by a region without that sort of thing occurring?

On a related note, I don't suppose you could spitball on how much of a disadvantage a polity would be at if they'd alienated the local consortium of weather/harvest gods the area's peoples relied on to get that kind of supernatural crop yield, and thus were limited to "normal" harvest quantities?
 
GardenerBriareus said:
So how much extra harvesting could be done by a region without that sort of thing occurring?
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With regards to rice two-to-three is probably sustainable. The thing about rice, and FBH tells me the quote in question is very specifically about rice, is that it requires considerable teamwork and year-round attention which was why I don't feel "Five Harvests" to be genuinely sustainable.

That however raises the question of more seasonal crops, like wheat. If it's possible to get five harvests of Rice, the numbers with wheat must be absolutely gangbusters. Winter wheat? More like, every month wheat.
 
It actually becomes more interesting when you think about it, that the only area holding out against the realm in the near threshold is the East, which just so happens to face the elemental poll of wood, and so probably enjoys its own areas of super high crop yield, and also includes the great trading city and wealth centre of nexus.

Perhaps the Scavenger lands survive not due to the military resources of Lookshy but rather because of their ability to create their own prosperity independent of the massive food bank that is the blessed isle.
 
I suspect that under this paradigm the rice plantations would be by far the largest purchasers of dream-eaten slaves from the Guild.
 
Bugs said:
Say, what would happen when an Infernal creates a Kimberian lake on an island too small to hold it?
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The thing about Infernal Geomancy charms is that they're fairly adaptable for whatever location you want to use them on.

Cece's Holy Land Infliction normally creates a desert of silver sand, but you can also use it to make salt lakes and dead seas if you use it in an aquatic environment. Matagoes is the same way in that he can make tangled beds of sargasso in water rather than the normal jungle/swamp mix.


As to Kimbery on a small island? her charm works better at converting beachfront areas than it does making land locked lakes anyway, so unless the Infernal is specifically trying to sink the island, it would probably convert the surrounding water while tainting the ground and local weather, but wouldn't actually make a lake if it wouldn't fit.
 
FBH said:
Basically, the Scarlet Empire is an Empire not of troops, nor even of dragon blooded, but rather of food. The blessed isle generates 5 harvests of rice a year, and has perfect weather. The Realm also controls the Lap, which is like, the next most fertile place in creation (probably as fertile as the blessed isle actually, given everything it has). So, rather than raising great legions of blessed isle folks, what the Scarlet Empire probably did, or does, was just pay off tributaries with access to this gigantic glut of food, and only occasionally launch military strikes (using mostly local armies they've paid off and officered with their own people) to suppress those who won't roll over and accept prosperity.

Combine this with the Immaculate faith, and divine collective bargaining, and you've got a system that's more than anything successful because those who join up become more prosperous than those who attempt to make their way outside of it. If you're a Northern or Southern city, you may even be supporting your whole population off the rice and grain produced in the Lap and the Blessed Isle and shipped too you.
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"The rice must flow," eh?

There's an interesting comparison with the modern issue of industrial food overproduction squeezing out farmers in non-industrialized societies. That being said, I doubt that cities would become entirely dependent on Realm rice, in part due to the necessity of animal products (raising sheep for their wool still leaves you with plenty of meat available in a pinch) and also due to cities attempting to address an obvious weakness. What with the Realm being willing and capable of using its food surplus as a political weapon under this paradigm, I imagine that cities trading with it would likely make some effort to maintain some degree of independence from Realm-imported grains. Still, all in all it's a very interesting point to make about the source of its power.

...come to think of it, a paranoid leader like the Scarlet Empress would've likely done her best to keep that kind of power in her own hands, rather than allowing any rando with a title to their name to block the rice exports to [insert satrapy here] for a year. Formalizing her control over rice exports and locking anyone else out of it would've also served as a guarantee to the satrapies themselves and a measure of safety for them. Rather than being at the whim of any Realm noble with a friend in high places, a satrapy would only face starvation if they'd manage to piss off the Empress Herself. But with her gone and that tool out of the equation, "when the cat's away the mice will play," yeah? :tongue:
 
Nuts! said:
"The rice must flow," eh?

There's an interesting comparison with the modern issue of industrial food overproduction squeezing out farmers in non-industrialized societies. That being said, I doubt that cities would become entirely dependent on Realm rice, in part due to the necessity of animal products (raising sheep for their wool still leaves you with plenty of meat available in a pinch) and also due to cities attempting to address an obvious weakness. What with the Realm being willing and capable of using its food surplus as a political weapon under this paradigm, I imagine that cities trading with it would likely make some effort to maintain some degree of independence from Realm-imported grains. Still, all in all it's a very interesting point to make about the source of its power.
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The great thing about this kind of economic sanction is that it works even if the other side can survive without it, because the realm can just spike up prices by reducing supply. They can also deliver the double whammy, by conscripting or recruiting a lot of the labour they would have used in rice cultivation into armies. So, if say, Paragon decides to get uppity, then the Empress could deliver a double message. She orders the realm to drop down to say 2 harvests a year, and that the lap cover the gap with its wheat. This spikes food prices in Paragon and puts a shot across their bows.

Then, with that done, she's also got a massive ready supply of soldiers, those labourers who are no longer serving on the land, who if the Perfect is insane enough to push the issue further and try to survive on his own grain, she can send to burn the city down.

This also makes the realm a lot stronger because any solar trying to carve out their own empire in the threshold better have the ability to replace all that Realm rice and lap grain if they don't want their revolution to blow up in their faces in a wave of high bread prices.
 
This is interesting, though I get the odd feeling that the people originally talking about five harvests a year weren't thinking much more than, "Five is more than four, right, and that makes it better."

...or maybe I'm just cynical?
 
Initially, I would say that the distances involved are too great. It could maybe work with Tiny!Creation - the initial concept where the Inland Sea is about the width of the Med and thus things like "Paragon and Gem having a trade war" make perfect sense - but with Creation scaled as it is, the level of food distribution that this would require is greater-than-real-life in a world where almost all ships are powered by the wind, where there are no motorised vehicles to move food around once they get off the docks, and where there's a lot more land and a lot less coastline.
 
Actually, incidentally, how big *is* the Realm? Like, is it Roman Empire sized? Qing Empire during the height of their power and size in the 1700s sized? Holy Roman Empire under Charlemagne sized?
 
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The other issue with this "Realm-imperialism-through-largesse" scheme is it means the Realm's imperialism doesn't really look like Chinese or Roman or British but rather American, which is somewhat out-of-theme.
 
The Laurent said:
Actually, incidentally, how big *is* the Realm? Like, is it Roman Empire sized? Qing Empire during the height of their power and size in the 1700s sized? Holy Roman Empire under Charlemagne sized?
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Big.

The blessed isle. (IE, it's metropolis) is more or less Russia sized, and then you add hundreds of satrapies. (That add to a total a bit bigger than the british empire).

(IIrc i much prefer the smaller scale Creation, and i think it makes a lot more sense, but that's just myself).
 
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Broken25 said:
Big.

The blessed isle. (IE, it's metropolis) is more or less Russia sized, and then you add hundreds of satrapies. (That add to a total a bit bigger than the british empire).

(IIrc i much prefer the smaller scale Creation, and i think it makes a lot more sense, but that's just myself).
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I was going to say, that makes absolutely no sense.

The British Empire at its height had 20th century technology...also, it self-destructed within a remarkably short time. Like, the British Empire at its 'height' in size was in 1920. It was dismembered within decades of that point.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Initially, I would say that the distances involved are too great. It could maybe work with Tiny!Creation - the initial concept where the Inland Sea is about the width of the Med and thus things like "Paragon and Gem having a trade war" make perfect sense - but with Creation scaled as it is, the level of food distribution that this would require is greater-than-real-life in a world where almost all ships are powered by the wind, where there are no motorised vehicles to move food around once they get off the docks, and where there's a lot more land and a lot less coastline.
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Well, given the Realm can move armies around, it seems like they'd be able to move regular caravans of food, especially if it's like, dry rice or whatever.

It might actually be interesting to consider the actual logistics of the scarlet empire.
 
The Laurent said:
I was going to say, that makes absolutely no sense.

The British Empire at its height had 20th century technology...also, it self-destructed within a remarkably short time. Like, the British Empire at its 'height' in size was in 1920. It was dismembered within decades of that point.
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Yes, but essentially it was slain by WW1, which bankrupted every single European empire. It killed the Russian empire, the Ottoman empire, the German empire, mortally wounded the British and French empires...

American hegenomy was built on being the last first class power remaining who hadn't thrown away their wealth and a generation of men on the battlefields of Europe. We can't really say what would have happened in a world without WW1's massive warping effects on world history.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Yes, but essentially it was slain by WW1, which bankrupted every single European empire. It killed the Russian empire, the Ottoman empire, the German empire, mortally wounded the British and French empires...

American hegenomy was built on being the last first class power remaining who hadn't thrown away their wealth and a generation of men on the battlefields of Europe. We can't really say what would have happened in a world without WW1's massive warping effects on world history.
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I dunno here. There were very strong trends towards Indian independence in the 1900s and 1910s.[1] Saying we can't know is all well and true in one sense, but there were already trends going on, trends that might even be said to have caused WW1 when they manifested in Europe, that would have made it difficult to hold onto any such empire.

Which isn't even addressing the technological disparity or the fact that the Realm's supposed EVEN LARGER than that.

There's no need for the realm to be that large. Like five-harvests-a-year it seems like largeness for its own sake so you can say, "The Realm is the biggest Empire in all of human history, including real life ones!"

[1] I'm speaking of India specifically here because it's such a large part of the British Empire's size, and also a perfect test-case for how limited their power was and how quickly it was vanquished. Looking at other parts of the British Empire similarly gives you a picture of how limited their authority was. Had to be, in fact. And yet you're then trying to set up a Scarlet Empress (or a succession of them) that totally have tons of authority.
 
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A lot depends of the developement level you asign to the realm. Like, the roman-like realm that some of the books paint doesn't make sense for an empire that tightly controls overseas colonies over atlantic distances, and not just because of trirremes. It's just impossible at a logistic level.

ES Eealm has kinda XVIII-XIX tech while the rest of the world is mostly iron age, which removes most of the absurdity, but still.
 
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