If damaging a persons' hun is literally what brain damage means in the setting, then hun-ghosts are hilariously frail and easy to twist to your own ends. The Underworld would be run by a mixture of First Age yidak & living Necromancers, since at least they don't lose basic neurological function whenever they get a paper cut.
...

Okay, this is a blatantly false equivalence. I would submit that brain damage is not "giving a person's hun a papercut", it is giving a person's hun brain damage. If you could put on your spirit glasses and look at a person's living hun after they'd had their skull fractured and a section of their cerebellum lightly crushed, it would look like a ghostly version of them with a shattered skull and crushed brain tissue.

Not only is it dishonest to see the word "damage" and translate it as "even so much as the tiniest papercut", it's also ignoring the fact that there is a difference between a living hun bound to flesh (which is therefore acting only as the seat of thought and reason, and is harmed as the flesh is), and a ghostly hun whose essence has solidified into a corpus - which, I note, will often tend to bear ghostly representations of whatever killed it; a dripping cut throat or a torn-open ribcage or the black skin-blotches of disease or whatever.

If you smash a hun ghost's head in and they somehow survive (or, uh, continue I guess), I would, yes, still expect them to lose something in the way of, at the very least, sanity. Yidak don't suffer the same fate from neurological damage because yidak don't have reason or thought to lose - they're bestial monsters (outside very unusual circumstances that generally come about via eating lots and lots of huns; making for a twisted and dubiously sane Sin-Eater).
 
The thing to remember about the soul, as Exalted conceptualizes it, is as a spiritual organ of power, not the actual source of memory or thought. Its a well-established metaphysical piece of human anatomy as a single united element that only really bifurcates into hun and po at the moment of death, and before magical wonkiness gets involved, we know how traditional human anatomy generally reacts to things and follow the rules in the ways we'd generally assume they would. This means like anyother piece of anatomy, there are definitely interdependencies at work within the soul as a formal seat of power, ways the physical body reflects upon the soul and vice-versa. You see this in how rigorous exercise, diet and such can actually have an Enlightening effect upon the soul, how the four virtues align with the crown of the head, heart, stomach and groin, and so on. If you yank someone's soul from their body, you aren't holding who they are, but simply another piece vital to sustaining a human life.

Thus, since we know for a fact if you hit your head hard enough, you forget certain things and become unable to parse information or perform motor functions properly, that the brain does the job of storing memory and learned experiences the same way in Creation. We know that old age weakens the mind, makes people senile and forgetful, and that change becomes reflected in whatever ghost they leave behind, not a fresh and hale figment of death who is sane and mentally-spry as a youngster. The aging process leaves defects in the root of a person's essential being no different than an Alchemical shanking you in the brain with a mind-probe and whipping the contents into a smoothie.

So if anything, the brain is nothing more than a temporary holding vessel of meat for 'who this person is,' translated from their primary senses, experiences and personality, much the same way the body of bone and muscle determines health, hardiness and life-support. If it simply holds that information, then like the stomach pushing food into the gut to be made useful to the body, all this mental "personhood" becomes shunted into the soul at the moment of death, divvying it between higher intelligence and animalistic passion as a preservation mechanism to give the hun and po souls traces of purpose and drive now that the seat of power is broken.
 
Oh, please. All this talk of causing functional damage to the soul through physical trauma sounds seriously ridiculous, and, honestly, i don't see it supported in any kind of myth.

We might as well say that ghosts can't walk if you cut their legs before killing them. Ok, sure; Maybe this happens sometimes. Maybe people without tongues or arms leave ghosts without tongues or arms. But i don't think you can create a crippled ghost by cripping the body, because if your reasoning reaches this point you have basically destroyed the difference between body and soul, and honestly that looks as a racionalist modernism.


As i see it? Ghosts are memories of a person. Shadows, shadows of it. If a person is decapitated and it's brain dies from blood loss, it's ghost won't be a brain dead idiot, obviously. It will be a based on how the ghost was during most of their life (With, maybe, a detachable head as a reminder of their violent death).

In the same way, the ghost of a cripple will be a cripple, but that doesn't mean you can cripple the ghosts of your enemies by cutting their legs before killing them. (Except, maybe, if you do it using some kind of thaumaturgical ritual).
 
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Have you never read a Ghost story? The idea that actions taken on the body pre death are reflected on the ghost/soul post death are pretty common.

Plus, aren't quite a few burial rites based off of that idea?
 
Have you never read a Ghost story? The idea that actions taken on the body pre death are reflected on the ghost/soul post death are pretty common.

Plus, aren't quite a few burial rites based off of that idea?

Nope, clearly they never have.

As i see it? Ghosts are memories of a person. Shadows, shadows of it. If a person is decapitated and it's brain dies from blood loss, it's ghost won't be a brain dead idiot, obviously. It will be a based on how the ghost was during most of their life (With, maybe, a detachable head as a reminder of their violent death).

******

Honestly, the whole idea comes off as way too easy. Among other things.
 
Have you never read a Ghost story? The idea that actions taken on the body pre death are reflected on the ghost/soul post death are pretty common.

Yes. I even mentioned that. But note than i said functional damage. A ghost that appears with a crushed skull after death by blunt object is fine, that's just aesthetics. A ghost that can't think after being killed by brain damage (IE, everybody, since that is always the final step of death) is not.

Plus, aren't quite a few burial rites based off of that idea?

Mentioned too. Cutting your enemies feet and burying them separately so their ghost can't follow you is cool, true. But that kind of things should be thaumaturgical rituals that have to be learned and performed correctly, not common knowledge.
 
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Yes. I even mentioned that; But note than i said functional damage. A ghost that appears with a crushed skull after death by blunt object is fine, that's just aesthetics. A ghost that can't think after being killed by brain damage (IE, everybody since that is always the final step of death) is not.
So you think I'm not talking about functional things because...?
 
I'm actually confused about what you're saying here. They DO think you're talking about functional things and they object.
My point was that ghost stories do have functional things carry over. The counter statement was that they were only talking about functional damage, not cosmetics. Which doesn't really address the point.
 
Yes. I even mentioned that. But note than i said functional damage. A ghost that appears with a crushed skull after death by blunt object is fine, that's just aesthetics. A ghost that can't think after being killed by brain damage (IE, everybody, since that is always the final step of death) is not.



Mentioned too. Cutting your enemies feet and burying them separately so their ghost can't follow you is cool, true. But that kind of things should be thaumaturgical rituals that have to be learned and performed correctly, not common knowledge.

I think that a good middle ground would be having the ghost's form be based on the sum of the memories imprinted upon the soul.

A warrior who lost their limbs in battle and spent a painful year wasting away before they died might have their ghostly limbs appear emaciated, but they would be fully functional.

If the same warrior was crippled in their twenties and lived until they were sixty, then their ghost would also be crippled.

This would allow for some groups of people to proform mass lobotomizations on their criminals or enemies, then pay to keep the bodies alive in horrific jails/asylums until enough time has passed that the 'living corpse' can be executed without worrying about an intelligent, vengeful ghost.
 
My point was that ghost stories do have functional things carry over. The counter statement was that they were only talking about functional damage, not cosmetics. Which doesn't really address the point.

Again, and it makes bad gameplay if it's childishly simple (and requires no real thaumaturgic knowledge) to cripple the ghosts of your enemies. Ghosts should be scary and a problem, not, "Oh, any child knows if you cut off someone's feet, bam, no useful ghost." Plus, as they pointed out, if braindeath made brain-dead ghosts, then congratulations, all ghosts are braindead.
 
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My point was that ghost stories do have functional things carry over.

They do? I have yet to see a story about a brain-dead ghost.

Nearly Headless Nick can think just fine despite their sectioned carotids.

I think that a good middle ground would be having the ghost's form be based on the sum of the memories imprinted upon the soul.

A warrior who lost their limbs in battle and spent a painful year wasting away before they died might have their ghostly limbs appear emaciated, but they would be fully functional.

If the same warrior was crippled in their twenties and lived until they were sixty, then their ghost would also be crippled.

This.
 
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Yes. I even mentioned that. But note than i said functional damage. A ghost that appears with a crushed skull after death by blunt object is fine, that's just aesthetics. A ghost that can't think after being killed by brain damage (IE, everybody, since that is always the final step of death) is not.


Your pretend divide between "functional" damage and other kinds is false. No, it's not just aesthetics despite what you claim.

Cut a person's eyes out, and their ghost will usually be blind, stumbling blind through the world and reaching out with clammy hands to search for their killer. Cut their arms off and the ghost will have no arms. Cut a man in half and his ghost will drag itself along the ground by its arms, or possibly fly and strangle people with its trailing guts. Cut their head off and the ghost will have to carry it under their arm (or will have to search for it forever, if you hide it).

Therefore, why should "caving their head in with an axe" not result in a ghost with a damaged sense of self who oozes memories from their rent-open skull and who has impulse-control problems? [1]

Despite the best attempts to pretend "mutilate" means "destroy" - no, it doesn't. Likewise, the attempt to engage in "but muh biology" sophistry and claim that everyone dies from brain damage is likewise at best diversionary.

[1] And despite the pretence that this makes them less threatening, you know, I'd prefer a ghost that remembers more of who they were than one who's lost everything except for how they died and tries to kill anyone they see who has an axe because all they can remember is how they died.

Again, and it makes bad gameplay if it's childishly simple (and requires no real thaumaturgic knowledge) to cripple the ghosts of your enemies. Ghosts should be scary and a problem, not, "Oh, any child knows if you cut off someone's feet, bam, no useful ghost." Plus, as they pointed out, if braindeath made brain-dead ghosts, then congratulations, all ghosts are braindead.

The only people who've been pretending it's childishly simple are the people who've been trying to misrepresent it.

And just FYI? "So, yeah, we systematically mutilate the souls of criminals using thaumaturgical rites where we damage the seat of their soul and quite possibly harm how they interact with the cycle of reincarnation" - which is what a lobotomy would be - means that you're the bad guys. And you're probably turning your jail into a shadowland because you're getting up to some seriously warped shit there.
 
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"You won't have eyes tonight. You won't have ears or a tongue. You will wander the underworld, blind, deaf and dumb, and all the dead will know: this is Hector, fool who thought he killed Achilles."

Note however that this is explicitely transgressive by the standards of his culture. You are not supposed to treat the dead this way, and him doing so is a sign of his terrible anger.
 
And just FYI? "So, yeah, we systematically mutilate the souls of criminals using thaumaturgical rites where we damage the seat of their soul and quite possibly harm how they interact with the cycle of reincarnation" - which is what a lobotomy would be - means that you're the bad guys. And you're probably turning your jail into a shadowland because you're getting up to some seriously warped shit there.

also, the bolded bit means that if you do it in enough numbers, you're going to get divine attention of some sort and not even remotely the happy kind.
 
Your pretend divide between "functional" damage and other kinds is false. No, it's not just aesthetics despite what you claim.

Cut a person's eyes out, and their ghost will usually be blind, stumbling blind through the world and reaching out with clammy hands to search for their killer. Cut their arms off and the ghost will have no arms. Cut a man in half and his ghost will drag itself along the ground by its arms, or possibly fly and strangle people with its trailing guts. Cut their head off and the ghost will have to carry it under their arm (or will have to search for it forever, if you hide it).

Therefore, why should "caving their head in with an axe" not result in a ghost with a damaged sense of self who oozes memories from their rent-open skull and who has impulse-control problems? [1]

Despite the best attempts to pretend "mutilate" means "destroy" - no, it doesn't. Likewise, the attempt to engage in "but muh biology" sophistry and claim that everyone dies from brain damage is likewise at best diversionary.

[1] And despite the pretence that this makes them less threatening, you know, I'd prefer a ghost that remembers more of who they were than one who's lost everything except for how they died and tries to kill anyone they see who has an axe because all they can remember is how they died.



The only people who've been pretending it's childishly simple are the people who've been trying to misrepresent it.

And just FYI? "So, yeah, we systematically mutilate the souls of criminals using thaumaturgical rites where we damage the seat of their soul and quite possibly harm how they interact with the cycle of reincarnation" - which is what a lobotomy would be - means that you're the bad guys. And you're probably turning your jail into a shadowland because you're getting up to some seriously warped shit there.

You know, instead of trying to misrepresent things, could it be possible that the definition of "sophist" is not "disagrees with EarthScorpion"?

And sure it means you're the bad guys, I don't get what your point is there? I say, "It should take a thaumaturgic ritual so that, yes, you're doing it on purpose and yes you should feel bad" you say, "Doing it with a thaumaturgic ritual is bad."

As far as it goes, the question is, what affect do the things you listed with blind ghosts and etc, etc have, mechanically? Like, in each example, you seemed to reject that a person could actually do something without thaumaturgy to meaningfully impair a ghost's ability to fuck you up. You could make their not-life worse, you could change HOW they kill you (flying entrail ghost versus crawling flesh-eater ghost or whatever), but it doesn't seem to really change the fact that there's no real way to assure, via ordinary means, that the guy you killed, no matter how you killed him, will come back to haunt you.

Edit: It just feels, for one, if you make it simply and easily effective (which you seem not to be doing so we aren't disagreeing as much as it seems), that you'd create differences in culture that I'm not sure are supported? As opposed to it being a thing that fucked up magic-users can do (that actually does cripple ghosts), or that is accidentally done in a way that doesn't actually make the ghost less dangerous in any way, shape, or form.

If all you're doing is saying, "Because this ghost was hit in the head (or liver, or whatever) before he died, I decide to move one attribute around to represent poor impulse control" then, again, the vast differences seem to be mostly degrees? Because I'm reasonably sure that Broken25 is not arguing that all ghosts should be exactly the same, mechanically, down to every single stat.
 
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Despite the best attempts to pretend "mutilate" means "destroy" - no, it doesn't. Likewise, the attempt to engage in "but muh biology" sophistry and claim that everyone dies from brain damage is likewise at best diversionary.

Oh, please. I actually agree with you here; bringing biology to this discussion is wrong. Problem is, you were the one that introduced it:

Well, I mean, I'd naturally go to the hard opposite extreme and say that if you stab someone in the brain, you stab them in the seat of the soul and mutilate their soul as well. After all, you can stab ghosts, so that means you can stab a ghost inhabiting a body.

Why does a stab in the brain mutilate the soul, and a stab in the liver not?
 
Query: Are consistent rules needed? Can't you just vary ghosts based on whatever you feel like and go "yeah sure whatever it gets some spirit charms based on whatever i feel like"?

Oh wow, I'm arguing for a lack of rules, that one is new.
 
Query: Are consistent rules needed? Can't you just vary ghosts based on whatever you feel like and go "yeah sure whatever it gets some spirit charms based on whatever i feel like"?

Oh wow, I'm arguing for a lack of rules, that one is new.

I mean, I don't personally object to, "Oh, I want this ghost to have been blinded and then thrown in prison to starve to death, so it's going to be a blind ghost" or whatever. The difficult place, in theory at least, is when it is systemizable [is that a word?]. Like, you can make it a ritual (but not Ritual) part of every execution to stab people in the eyes and you'll always get blind ghosts. Or at least, systemizable by someone who's not a Necromancer/Sorcerer/Doing something special.

Because making it not automatic gives Necromancers space to break/make the rules by elaborate evil tortures designed to make ghosts with specific attributes.
 
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this seems kinda like the sort of thing that could and should go both ways. Sometimes you mistreat a corpse and the resultant ghost is deaf and dumb and that's horrifying. Other times a ghost might hold its head underneath its arm (a hypothetical example) and still be able to use it just fine. Ghosts are weird and there's a million little tiny reasons why these things might manifest differently or not at all depending upon the circumstances of a specific ghost's death and their existence afterward.

It seems kind of constraining if stabbing somebody in the brain always produces some kind of soul mutilation though. I guess if it's a thaumaturgy ritual that requires more specific effort though that seems totally fine to me, since it sounds like there's more to it than just stabbing someone in the brain when you kill them.
 
The big thing to me is that it shouldn't be reliable unless you are using actual learned magic to effect a certain outcome.

Sometimes you blind a man, then kill him, and the resulting ghost is a blind, weeping shade that wanders aimlessly, a pathetic creature drawn by human voices but incapable of doing more than drinking the sounds that are all it has left.

Sometimes it creates an eyeless horror that sees through sound better than any mortal eye could, which hunts mortals and gouges out their eyeballs, hanging them from its neck on a long string. They cry endlessly without tearducts, and every so often it eats one of them to consume the memories of things its victim has seen. Those who survive its attacks dream of what their tortured eyes still see, and are often driven mad by the terrible wonders of the Great Below and the gruesome horror of the ghost's crimes.

So, you know. It's a gamble.
 
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Whether damage to the body damages the person's soul seems like it's a product of a certain disagreement of philosophy. How separate do you think a person's soul is from their body?

Though I think the hard version of such an effect is probably bad, because it means like, there wouldn't be any ghosts, because the person's brain still is damaged when it actually dies. Ultimately accepts the idea that the person's "Self" is separate from their body, even their brain, is something exalted accepts, in the same way most classic philosophy did.
 
I think for modelling the action of deliberately inflicting this kind of injury on a ghost that thaumaturgy ritual seems like a sensible way to do it. Maybe include a line or two about how sometimes it has unpredictable results and maybe give an example scenario in a sentence.

Then you can largely arbitrate when that unpredictable result of creating the eyeless horror occurs as a GM fiat thing. Ghost stuff is complicated! Sometimes you find the shaman dead in the ruins because his peculiar fondness for blind ghosts left him with one eyeless horror who wouldn't take it anymore.

... I think this was a dungeon in Skyrim.

Either way, spooky thing, @Omicron!
 
I think the way I'd do it is like, how much does it affect the person's self or self conflict.

If you brutally execute someone by blinding them and leaving them to bleed out, then yeah, the ghost that comes after you is going to be blindly stumbling, somehow always knowing where its killers are. Similiarly, if the person was blind from birth, they may not see after death. . . unless of course that's why they're a ghost. They avoided the next life until they could see this one, even from beyond the grey veil of the underworld. A blind martial artist killed by treachery would still be blind however. A one armed man would probably not be made whole in death.

I wouldn't try to make a hard and fast rule for it. I'd base it on the character of the person or event.

I'm rereading exalted 3rd edition and I can't help feeling it's production values are a real step down from 2nd or 1st edition in terms of look, and just how it's produced. The amount of art seems a lot lower and its badly placed, often seeming a bit random. Like there's a full page about this one particular bride of Ahlat, and then a picture of some random northern chick with a spear. It's really jarring.
 
Again, and it makes bad gameplay if it's childishly simple (and requires no real thaumaturgic knowledge) to cripple the ghosts of your enemies. Ghosts should be scary and a problem, not, "Oh, any child knows if you cut off someone's feet, bam, no useful ghost." Plus, as they pointed out, if braindeath made brain-dead ghosts, then congratulations, all ghosts are braindead.
It seems easy because you're ignoring or misrepresenting what's going on. Even in the strongest case, were someone is able to systemize things, you would get nasty shadowlands that continue to grow, nasty angered hungry ghosts (which are one of the more dangerous types), and likely attracted terrors from the underworld because you keep dumping easy prey in the area. You 'solved' a problem(one that doesn't even exist, as most people don't leave ghosts) by creating 3 new worse ones. Progress?

Nevermind that this assumes you manage to cripple your enemies entirely before they die and that as ghost they don't find some way around that (which is a huge assumption). Especially given that tormented ghost who want revenge tend to become sevants of the Neverborn, which can get bad very quickly. And that the crippling is always an effect.

Plus, the whole thing with ghosts not necessarily being a physical threat. The ghost that drives the husband of a lord mad by invading his dreams so that the husband does a murder suicide doesn't need feet.
They do? I have yet to see a story about a brain-dead ghost.

Nearly Headless Nick can think just fine despite their sectioned carotids.
Are you positive you want to go with the idea that specific examples can disprove a some statement? Because that leads to very stupid outcomes: for example, under that logic no rectangles are squares, as I can point to many individual rectangles that are not squares.

Additionally, you missed the point regarding burial rites. Specifically, the point was that the rites existed because the cultures believed that what happened to the body carried over to the afterlife. You know, the thing you denied having any place in myth.
 
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