You know who else leaves behind 2CD'ish ghosts? Elder Dragonbloods. Which makes me wonder if there weren't some small nation far away from the realm ruled by Dragonblooded gens that makes a habit of binding the yidaks of their ancestors using Laby-

...

Oh wait, DBs don't get Celestial/Labyrinth circle stuffs. Well, they could always use the shackling method talked about earlier in the thread, I guess.
Or worse, a Shogunate remnant ruled by its Deathlord Shogun, who appears in the blackened chamber at the heart of the city-state's central fortress to issue edicts to his Dragonblooded seconds-in-command. Once a decade, the young Princes of the Earth are brought before him in a midnight ceremony, and the soul of the most deviant is consumed to bolster the Shogun's power as his circle of "Ascended Dragons" - trusted Dragonbloods ascended into Greater Dead via the power of the Shogun's Necromancy - venture into the countryside to cull dissenters and traitors from the mortal population.
 
Or worse, a Shogunate remnant ruled by its Deathlord Shogun, who appears in the blackened chamber at the heart of the city-state's central fortress to issue edicts to his Dragonblooded seconds-in-command. Once a decade, the young Princes of the Earth are brought before him in a midnight ceremony, and the soul of the most deviant is consumed to bolster the Shogun's power as his circle of "Ascended Dragons" - trusted Dragonbloods ascended into Greater Dead via the power of the Shogun's Necromancy - venture into the countryside to cull dissenters and traitors from the mortal population.
This gave me an image of Nazgul-ish riders on fell steeds that rode abroad in sunlight-blocking full-body artifact armours, spreading terror regardless of day and night.
 
Or worse, a Shogunate remnant ruled by its Deathlord Shogun, who appears in the blackened chamber at the heart of the city-state's central fortress to issue edicts to his Dragonblooded seconds-in-command. Once a decade, the young Princes of the Earth are brought before him in a midnight ceremony, and the soul of the most deviant is consumed to bolster the Shogun's power as his circle of "Ascended Dragons" - trusted Dragonbloods ascended into Greater Dead via the power of the Shogun's Necromancy - venture into the countryside to cull dissenters and traitors from the mortal population.

Well, you know, since I also tie access to Sorcery (including necrotic sorcery) purely to Enlightenment - yes, an ex-DB ghost can get Sapphire Circle as a Greater Dead, and even Adamant Circle if they manage to become a top-tier Deathlord.

There are very few Deathlords that potent, but if you want to retain any of the canon ones the ex-Solar Deathlords are valid choices to fill out those ranks. Of course, perhaps a lesser Deathlord could raise their power more - by eating another Deathlord, or venturing down to the Tombs again to try to tear off more of the corpse-flesh...

... honestly, it's kind of amusing that for all that the only reason there's 13 deathlords in canon is that it's a meaningless Masquerade reference, actually doing Masquerade and letting ghosts diablerise each other for power via sin-eating produces a much more dynamic Underworld.
 
Out of curiosity, what stops the underworld from being eventually packed with hundreds if not thousands of solar tier entities long term under this paradigm?
 
People killing them.

I mean that Mafleas has a Hard Cap on the number of 3CD, Yu-shan isn't producing any more at the moment due to budget cuts, new management and downsizing, Autochthon is artificially Capped by resource availability.

With infinite neverborn resources, and a limitless supply of souls from creation, the total available power in the underworld is always on the increase relative to all the other realms. The number of 3CD equivalent entities in the underworld should be on the increase, especially as the more powerful ones are harder to kill.
 
Out of curiosity, what stops the underworld from being eventually packed with hundreds if not thousands of solar tier entities long term under this paradigm?

1) Deathlords die when they are (perma) killed. Or eaten.
2) Deathlords ate of the Neverborn. The spiritual filth is part of them, slowly corroding them. Whispers are in their head. They go crazy and lose themselves, becoming hectatonkhires and lurking in the Labyrinth.
3) Yes, the number of Lords of Death and Greater Dead in the Underworld has been increasing in the long run. Entropy is slowly devouring the world.
 
I mean that Mafleas has a Hard Cap on the number of 3CD, Yu-shan isn't producing any more at the moment due to budget cuts, new management and downsizing, Autochthon is artificially Capped by resource availability.

With infinite neverborn resources, and a limitless supply of souls from creation, the total available power in the underworld is always on the increase relative to all the other realms. The number of 3CD equivalent entities in the underworld should be on the increase, especially as the more powerful ones are harder to kill.

(we are speaking the consensus of "those are more powerful ghosts, not the crappy uber-bosses of canon).

It's like saying that Hell can produce infinite number of high level behemoths, because theoretically it can be done. The resources of Neverborn are not infinite - the obvious bottleneck* is number of sufficiently mad and powerful (as in will-power) ghosts that can bear the Neverborn gifts without being lost in Labyrinth and/or falling into Well of Oblivion. Even if power is theoretically in limitless supply it's far from free - see the madness, Whispers and Oblivion. So we can plot long-term number of "quality" ghosts that made it versus "lost" and "destroyed" Deathlords and the number probably won't be that big at all, handful every generation at most. There will be <100 half-mad veteran Deathlords like the post-Usurpation Solar ghosts with influence comparable to 3CD, but "usual" Deathlord is not going to last even a fraction of 3CD life and will have lot less developed domain and smaller influence over-all. Unquestionables are infinitely more secure than Deathlords.

*there are less obvious ones, but I am speaking of my Underworld and we are discussing the ES version.. which can be confusing.

(...)
3) Yes, the number of Lords of Death and Greater Dead in the Underworld has been increasing in the long run. Entropy is slowly devouring the world.

Yes, that it's probably best answer: the story of Exalted is that of decline and fall. And Underworld getting stronger and stronger relative to Creation is large part of that. The Abyssal are the winning team in the End.
 
Yes, that it's probably best answer: the story of Exalted is that of decline and fall. And Underworld getting stronger and stronger relative to Creation is large part of that. The Abyssal are the winning team in the End.
Eh, there's probably ways of stopping that. Most of them create entirely new problems, but the universe is basically just a succession of problems, so that's working as intended.
 
One problem with the otherwise excellent withering as psyching up, decisive as sortie take on 3E mass combat is the ability of various splats to produce professionals in large enough numbers that they should just be able to skip the psyching up phase. Tiger Warriors and the like aren't actually fearless, but compared to unenhanced mortals they're close enough and have enough of a skill edge to go straight to shock action, or to actually rack up a substantial kill count with light-ish thrown weapons.
 
Eh, there's probably ways of stopping that. Most of them create entirely new problems, but the universe is basically just a succession of problems, so that's working as intended.

Sure, in the end it's Storyteller sandbox and he gets to decide themes. My Creation is influenced around post apocalyptic Jack Vance-like pulp fantasy.. and the players know that they are in the ruins of much greater and sophisticated world, raging against the dying of the light.
 
One problem with the otherwise excellent withering as psyching up, decisive as sortie take on 3E mass combat is the ability of various splats to produce professionals in large enough numbers that they should just be able to skip the psyching up phase. Tiger Warriors and the like aren't actually fearless, but compared to unenhanced mortals they're close enough and have enough of a skill edge to go straight to shock action, or to actually rack up a substantial kill count with light-ish thrown weapons.
That almost seems appropriate, on multiple levels. On the one hand, you have the fact that Tiger Warriors were meant to stand against things far greater than a mortal man, even if only the least castoffs of those things; erymanthoi have no need to 'psych up' before tearing a man's head from his shoulders. Is it any wonder that a regimen meant to prepare soldiers for a Primordial war turns out men who seem inhumanly skilled when set up against mere mortals?

On the other hand, it provides perfect ammunition for the Immaculate Order to smear Solars - clearly, these people have lost their souls, to fight with such inhuman ferocity! Surely, they must be possessed by the lesser horrors which serve Anathema...
 
So, on a completely unrelated note from my previous post...

I remember there was a Kimberian FCD that could create more of its kind by jamming a human tongue and teeth into a human corpse, and often did so while in Creation. Is there any other precedent for "self-replicating" demons? What happens to the newborn FCD if it's made in Creation? I assume that if a bound demon makes offspring while in Creation, those offspring are not under any obligation to obey whoever summoned their "parent", but is it even allowable to have that as a thing in the first place?
 
On the other hand, it provides perfect ammunition for the Immaculate Order to smear Solars - clearly, these people have lost their souls, to fight with such inhuman ferocity! Surely, they must be possessed by the lesser horrors which serve Anathema...
"Look, oh look! Women and men of the Realm everlasting! Look, how the vile Anathema snare away young women and men with promises of gold and glory on the battlefield! Look how they become hardened killers, with no place for honour or valour in their minds; subjected to the whims of the devils who stole them from their homes as they are! How they fight with the ferocity of ten men each, cursed by the Anathema who ensnared them! But stand fast, soldiers of the Realm, and know that in your righteousness you shall triumph! With the Dragon-Blooded at the forefront of the speartip of our mighty legions, you shall triumph!"

That the Tiger Warriors are ferocious warriors equivalent to the skilled swordmasters of other cultures is totally a feature - it means that the Order gets to:
  1. Engage in smear campaigns about how "the vile demon of the Mahali Falls" snared away eightfold scores of men and women and made them it's honour guard, each of them fighting with the murderous hate of the Forsaken that bound their souls to it's cursed service.
  2. Compare them to the righteous might of the Dragon-Blooded who will inevitably triumph when they slay ten men with each strike and crush them with the might of their Animas.
  3. Try to convince former Tiger Warriors who no longer have an Anathema master to take up the banner of the Realm (and stab them to death if they refuse).
All of these are totally features.
 
So, on a completely unrelated note from my previous post...

I remember there was a Kimberian FCD that could create more of its kind by jamming a human tongue and teeth into a human corpse, and often did so while in Creation. Is there any other precedent for "self-replicating" demons? What happens to the newborn FCD if it's made in Creation? I assume that if a bound demon makes offspring while in Creation, those offspring are not under any obligation to obey whoever summoned their "parent", but is it even allowable to have that as a thing in the first place?
If not specifically ordered not to, a Demon can certainly create more of it's own kind in whatever way it does so- and their offspring are unbound and free to wander Creation, yes.
 
Tangenting slightly, it's worth noting that Exalted zombies have never been shambling infectious types- they are either automatons who happen to use meat (which I think ES is depreciating?) or corpses that are being rode by bound ghosts. So the conclusion of 'Fast Zombies' being the default is fine.

So, hmm, under that what "categories" of option does a necrotic sorcerer have access to?
  • The Spectral - the simplest form of Dead to make use of. Spectral Dead are raw ghosts, with only their natural Charms. This includes things like war-ghosts, ghostly spies, and summoning Alma and unleashing her on an enemy army. The Spectral are super vulnerable to sunlight, and so either need to be carried to the battlefield in vessels of grave earth, or to be used defensively. Also, note that animal pos are also a valid choice, so you can totally have a pack of ghost wolves.
    • Logical conclusion - raw war ghosts are either used to defend shadowlands, or by someone who's put the effort into transporting ghosts to a night battle. When used militarily, you're probably either a) grabbing lots of ghosts at once and throwing them out as a spectral mass, probably using pos or b) using a pre-existing ghost military formation, often via alliance with the Dead. Hun formations of war ghosts are more like demon formation; po formations are disorganised fast-moving monsters.
  • The Reanimated - by binding the Dead into a suitable vessel, it's made material and is protected from the influence of the sun somewhat. This can cover anything from casting a Sapphire Circle spell to grab a bunch of ghosts from the underworld and just cram them into the nearest corpses to laboriously manufacturing a carefully constructed ritual body as a vessel for a Deathlord that resembles them in life. Reanimated are still subject to morale - your pack of po-animated fast zombies will scatter and run if charged by heavy cavalry. You can animate both animals and human corpses with this - and use both animal and human ghosts. Indeed, trash-grade "battlefield reanimation" probably involves cramming animal pos into human bodies.
    • Logical conclusion - Reanimated are going to be the mainstay of armies of the Dead, because it allows you to a) make them material, b) protect them from sunlight somewhat, and c) you can animate all kinds of weird necrotech things. Hun Reanimated are your skeletons that march in ranks and undead champions; Po Reanimated are fast zombies and Special Infected.
  • The Made - the most complex, because they're creatures made entirely of sorcerous spells. Mechanically we can use the same rules for this as for a general ruleset for golems and sorcerous constructs - they're just happening to be giant scorpions made of human bone, or fragments of the Labyrinth's walls carved into statues and brought to unholy life.
    • Logical conclusion - they're probably too expensive to make your entire army out of them unless you have lots of resources, but you might have an elite formation. These are the only kind of Dead that are unbreakable because you can build their minds to know no fear.
Hmm. I think that's sufficient to cover Sabriel, Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings, which is what I consider the litmus test. Under this, something like the Mordicant is a Reanimated with a powerful Lesser Dead or even Greater Dead in it.
 
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All this talk of Undead Armies is making me remember the days when I played Heroes of Might and Magic 3, which could be an example of what Exalted could be in Nation-level strategic comat, e.g. Hero goes out to explore the region, gather resources, builds up infrastructure, learns skills and magic, plans out his conquest, and goes out to kill.

For the Necropolis faction, it didn't stick out much since it was your army made of standard fantasy undead. But having ability to turn any creature into skeletons to buff your forces and the Hero Skill Necromancy to turn a percentage of total casualties into more skeletons to pad your army was a pain in the ass against a competent player. Of course, Turn Undead was always an option.

Then there was this castle building which blotted out a circular section of the mini-map centered on the castle, which was annoying since it was difficult to track enemy hero movements. It really didn't amount to much since the mini-map was the only thing affected.

Hmm... thinking about it, everything I just mentioned was already accomplished by that Deathlord in the West, the Silver Prince, IIRC.
 
So, hmm, under that what "categories" of option does a necrotic sorcerer have access to?
  • The Spectral - the simplest form of Dead to make use of. Spectral Dead are raw ghosts, with only their natural Charms. This includes things like war-ghosts, ghostly spies, and summoning Alma and unleashing her on an enemy army. The Spectral are super vulnerable to sunlight, and so either need to be carried to the battlefield in vessels of grave earth, or to be used defensively. Also, note that animal pos are also a valid choice, so you can totally have a pack of ghost wolves.
    • Logical conclusion - raw war ghosts are either used to defend shadowlands, or by someone who's put the effort into transporting ghosts to a night battle. When used militarily, you're probably either a) grabbing lots of ghosts at once and throwing them out as a spectral mass, probably using pos or b) using a pre-existing ghost military formation, often via alliance with the Dead. Hun formations of war ghosts are more like demon formation; po formations are disorganised fast-moving monsters.
  • The Reanimated - by binding the Dead into a suitable vessel, it's made material and is protected from the influence of the sun somewhat. This can cover anything from casting a Sapphire Circle spell to grab a bunch of ghosts from the underworld and just cram them into the nearest corpses to laboriously manufacturing a carefully constructed ritual body as a vessel for a Deathlord that resembles them in life. Reanimated are still subject to morale - your pack of po-animated fast zombies will scatter and run if charged by heavy cavalry. You can animate both animals and human corpses with this - and use both animal and human ghosts. Indeed, trash-grade "battlefield reanimation" probably involves cramming animal pos into human bodies.
    • Logical conclusion - Reanimated are going to be the mainstay of armies of the Dead, because it allows you to a) make them material, b) protect them from sunlight somewhat, and c) you can animate all kinds of weird necrotech things. Hun Reanimated are your skeletons that march in ranks and undead champions; Po Reanimated are fast zombies and Special Infected.
  • The Made - the most complex, because they're creatures made entirely of sorcerous spells. Mechanically we can use the same rules for this as for a general ruleset for golems and sorcerous constructs - they're just happening to be giant scorpions made of human bone, or fragments of the Labyrinth's walls carved into statues and brought to unholy life.
    • Logical conclusion - they're probably too expensive to make your entire army out of them unless you have lots of resources, but you might have an elite formation. These are the only kind of Dead that are unbreakable because you can build their minds to know no fear.
Hmm. I think that's sufficient to cover Sabriel, Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings, which is what I consider the litmus test. Under this, something like the Mordicant is a Reanimated with a powerful Lesser Dead or even Greater Dead in it,

A thought occurs about Spectral forces- they don't need to be 'manifest' to be useful either. The ghost of a general bound in a bone coronet can whisper in a man's ear, after all.
 
A thought occurs about Spectral forces- they don't need to be 'manifest' to be useful either. The ghost of a general bound in a bone coronet can whisper in a man's ear, after all.
That actually reminds me - war ghosts have a Charm that lets them manifest long enough to perform a single action, even during the day (albeit at a pretty steep mote cost). Intangible, invisible phantoms who can suddenly blink into existence, shove a daiklaive through someone's face, and then vanish before any retaliation is possible allows for obscene levels of organizational disruption in warfare - unless the Necromancer's enemy can find a means of providing all of his command personnel with some means of perceiving immaterial beings 24/7, there's very little they can do to keep a lot of their squad leaders and other significant battleground figures from coming down with a sudden case of dead within an hour or so of initiating hostilities.

That's not a ghost-exclusive sort of thing, but it might help further differentiate armies of Dead by using that kind of thing more strongly.
 
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