There's also the fact that Shadowlands are, well, a lot easier to get into then Hell. If you want Demons, you need to summon them, each and every one, or at least have other people summon them for you (and hope that your less skilled minions don't mess up and let a Blood Ape or something akin loose).

If you want some ghosts, you can literally walk into a Shadowlands and bribe/bind/threaten/otherwise muster up a swarm of nasty ghosts to serve in your forces. Or murder lots of people and then mass raise them as zombies and so on. Blood Apes might be stronger then any single zombie, but it should be a lot easier to mass up a horde of basic zombies then it is to mass up a horde of Blood Apes. You know, as long as you don't mind murdering a few villages worth of presumably innocent people.

Also related to the fact that Shadowlands are often just lying around somewhere is the fact that it's a lot easier to use the underworld for stealthy travel, either individually or for armies, then it is to go to Hell and back.

On another note, personally, I've never been to hot on Helltech and Necrotech actually being different things then normal magitech. In my opinion it should all just be Tech, and the difference is that when you are a demonologist you do tech stuff with bound demons and hellish materials, and when you are a necromancer you do tech stuff with the bodies of the fallen and the souls of the lost. Like how in that sorcery homebrew the difference between most necromancy and normal sorcery is just what you use to power/anchor it.
 
Touching on a previous thought, not sure who had it first though- but most arts/armies of the dead are loyal like automatons, and have perfect morale. Demons obey the spirit of their binding and have usualy Good to Perfect Morale, which doesn't come up that much.

Actually, the thing I was leaning towards initially was to change that. Dabblers and people who aren't going hard-core into "armies of the Dead" don't use perfect automata. The mainstay of the Dead should be ghosts fighting for you, whether as spirits or inhabiting bodies (or terracotta clay golems). Whether they're hun ghosts wearing bodies (who act like soldiers), or po ghosts wearing bodies (who act like beasts of war), neither of them have perfect morale.

Basically, if it's easy to get perfect morale troops, you can't build a mass battle system where morale is a critical factor because cheap perfect morale troops are declaring "I don't play this part of the system".

And at a thematic level, I think it's probably better to incentivise Aragon the Solar Necromancer forming an alliance with a ghost army of soldiers who once served his past incarnation, or a valiant deathknight culture-hero who calls on ancient heroes of his people to inhabit statues made of grave earth and bone ash and slaughter their foes, or even the scary antihero who keeps a pack of po souls bound in a soulsteel jar and unleashes them for desperate battles. It's got more background and more history and more ties to the setting than making the easiest path "yeah, I reanimate all these bodies". Plus, it's easier as an option to make heroic and thus the sort of thing that players want to do without being antiheroes-at-best, because there are plenty of character concepts where calling on the ancestor spirits to fight along their children is acceptable.

Not that there's anything wrong with animating a large ball of DA DA DA DA DA SKELETON WARRIORS, but it should probably require big rituals at the new moon and blood sacrifices or calling on the dark energy of cursed places (Abyssal Demesnes) - not be something that can be pulled off in combat time unless you prepare something big beforehand.
 
I'll probably have some more thoughts about this over the next few days [2], but I open the floor here to the discussion of the armies of the Dead, how to make them more alluring to players, and generally work on how to make necromancy more attractive to players at the strategic scale.
Well, firstly, I'll say that I liked Necrotech. Not the sample creations; those were... yeah those were pretty bad, but the opening comic really sold me on the idea of the Science of Death. A dispassionate, creepy-calm field of building and maintaining war machines of dead flesh and unearthed bones. Necrotech works rather well as the industrial opposite number to the elementals that can form elite special units among living armies. When the mortal world negotiates the aid of a Court of fire elementals to ride to their aid and sear the battlefield clean, the Dead respond with zombie rhino's with grafted-on river dragon jaws.
 
Actually, the thing I was leaning towards initially was to change that. Dabblers and people who aren't going hard-core into "armies of the Dead" don't use perfect automata. The mainstay of the Dead should be ghosts fighting for you, whether as spirits or inhabiting bodies (or terracotta clay golems). Whether they're hun ghosts wearing bodies (who act like soldiers), or po ghosts wearing bodies (who act like beasts of war), neither of them have perfect morale.

Fair enough- then the ease of getting those things should offset the 'risk' of imperfect morale. Besides, Exalts have Charms that confer it or near enough anyway.
 
So. Let's talk the armies of the Dead.

(yes, I know, very melodramatic way of starting things)

I was thinking about what the armies of the Dead consist of and the sort of forces an Abyssal might lead after writing the ghoul thing, and I kept on running into the same problem. I don't think Exalted has ever really managed to make them... evocative. Oh, certainly, you get some quirky things in the 2e comics and some lol-shock things in the necrotech section [1], but there's nothing all that coherent. Despite the fact that they're largely made up of the same stuff as the Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings of Warhammer, there's never the same sense of a unified aesthetic, or indeed feel.

There's an additional problem, too, because once again demons are looking smug at another thing they do better - namely, how a PC-level sorcerer can use them to supplement an existing force. It's easy for a player to realise that they can have an agata squadron to work as fast aerial scouts, and realise how that's an amazing advantage on an Iron Age battlefield. It's just as easy for a player to realise that a single demon pack can be used as expendable line-breaking troops to save your mortal troops - a pack of blood apes can be thrown into an enemy formation to demoralise them (and Blood Apes and their Bane Weapon are good at killing mortals) and soften them up for the human soldiers. But the more potent necrotech stuff requires a lot more player specialisation and focus to do.

I'll probably have some more thoughts about this over the next few days [2], but I open the floor here to the discussion of the armies of the Dead, how to make them more alluring to players, and generally work on how to make necromancy more attractive to players at the strategic scale.

[1] "It shoots babies at you that then explode!"

[2] Certainly, "I animate several graveyards using a ritual at the new moon to bind ghosts into corpses produce an army from nowhere" is what I'd want necrotic sorcery to do as a seasonal-scale project, allowing a necromancer to create an army from "nowhere" without taking their farmers and the like off the field. Players should be tempted to dabble in animating the dead to allow them to campaign during harvest season and during the winter months.
This is, frankly, bizarre to me on both an aesthetic and mechanical levels.

Demons are at their best when they operate in small groups which take only a few days of preparation to raise. A pack of a half-dozen blood apes swinging from trees or jumping down rooftops as they bear down on their targets? Scary. A handful of agatae carrying an Exalted circle? Really drives home the terrible majesty of the Princes of the Earth. A squad of tomescu suddenly jumping from the mists to butcher some surprised mortals? Effective. Three luminatas hunting down one man through the forests on a moonless night? Terrifying.

But blow it up to strategic scales and it all starts looking kinda dumb. Actual armies of demons are just goofy. A few hundred crimson baboon-gorillas trying to march in rank are hard to take seriously. A swarm of hundreds of Agatae, each one a philosopher whose carapace is so beautiful mortals weep at their sight, carrying banal soldiers and crates of supplies? It's going to convey the message "whoever put this together is a really big deal" once, and then no one who's seen that scene will ever see Agatae as more than a horse++. Luminata as light cavalry harassing your opponent's army makes sense in terms of what powers they have, but it's just kind of... Silly.

Now I know, the above is mostly a matter of taste. But mechanically it doesn't make sense either. You can't have demon armies. Any given sorcerer can have about 400 demons at any time provided they are suffering no attrition whatsoever, can spend several hours summoning every day, and can afford the constantly-renewed sorcerous supplies. Try to bring several sorcerers together, and these costs stack up while you find yourself with clusters of 200-400 demons each magically loyal to a different person. Oh, and some of them are perpetually hungry for blood and with unmanageable tempers that prevent good formation work, some of them scream in unison at the same time each day, and the ones you're using for engineering are stealing babies everywhere you go (and that's a lot of babies, because armies are hugely reliant on human settlements - "foraging" mostly means "steal shit from the local peasants.")

Creation doesn't have Hellmouths. It has gates to Cecelyne, but it doesn't have festering holes in the world that blood life-killing pus and disgorge monsters that hunger for prayers and blood.

That's what Shadowlands are, though.

Necromancers don't build armies by dedicating hours every night summoning soldiers one at a time. Indeed, they mostly don't even spend months and resources on necropunk horrors. Those are setpieces and distractions.

Necromancers show up and just hire entire regiments of lost souls who have forgotten the face of their father but remember the smell of the blood of the first man they killed. Or, "hire." They play on their ghostly nature to bind them, whether it's placating them into service with promises of blood and worship, cursing their opponent's city so that they will get up and spill out of their shadowlands to attack it on their own, use large-scale workings to bind them all into service, whatever. The ghosts are there. Lords of the dead exist who will lend you these armies, already trained and organized, for some terrible fee. Battlefields and charnel houses abound where a bunch of useless corpses only await you to turn them into cheap, plentiful soldiers.

And visually it's much more coherent. You have a thousand shambling undead in the front, behind which march a few hundred translucent shades, visages caught in masks of pain and anger, still wearing their lamellar and helm sporting the damage of the wounds that killed them. Next to those you have some number of pale riders on skeletal steeds, taut skin over raw bone and fire for eyes, and some hundred-strong guard made up of suits of gothic plate empty but for two points of cold light in their helm.

And next to this army, aesthetically coherent, supernatural enough to be fearsome but subdued enough to not look ridiculous, you put in a handful of more unique touches of freakier things: three giant snakes made out of the bones of hundreds of mortal, a small group of bloated plague-dead ready to burst and spill contagion in enemy ranks, a few carriages transporting black iron cages where squirm wolf-like hungry ghosts to be released at the last moment before battle, five Abyssals cosplaying the Horsemen of the Apocalypse (they couldn't decide whether to have Conquest or Pestilence so they took both).

Demons exist as a terrible addition to normal armies, small groups of freakish monsters whose spiritual power and unique capabilities vastly expand the toolkit of an otherwise mortal army. When you go to war with demons you go to war with a human army and you bring a few dozens blood apes and you use them as a single wedge to break enemy ranks with their superior prowess and mortal-slaying powers, and you hope you lose no more than one per day on average for your whole campaign. When you go to war with undead you bring a thousand war-ghosts and they are the army, no mortal necessary, and they slowly grind through all opposition because they literally cannot die, mortal blows simply disrupting their link to their armor until they possess a new one, and every soldier that dies is a new recruit.

You can't have demon armies. You can have undead armies. And your undead armies don't look like Bogleech tried to draw the Battle at Helm's Deep.
 
Last edited:
[1] "It shoots babies at you that then explode!"
.

That was soo much derp.


So. Let's talk the armies of the Dead.

(yes, I know, very melodramatic way of starting things)

I was thinking about what the armies of the Dead consist of and the sort of forces an Abyssal might lead after writing the ghoul thing, and I kept on running into the same problem. I don't think Exalted has ever really managed to make them... evocative.

I'll probably have some more thoughts about this over the next few days [2], but I open the floor here to the discussion of the armies of the Dead, how to make them more alluring to players, and generally work on how to make necromancy more attractive to players at the strategic scale. .

I don't use any "strategic" level, other than war rolls and play battles as extended cinematic scene where players can offer imput or get bits of over-the-top action (something like Iliad - crushing dozens of enemy mooks, killing enemy champion or fighting a god that decide to descend on the battle-field to help his city-state army..)

I think making the aesthetics right is very important.. and as always you can have fun with mythology. I did run a campaign for group of Abyssal vassals of home-brew Deathlord named Father Hung upon a Tree (Odin expy with Valhalla style domain in Northern Underworld - I wanted to make at least one Deathlord who wasn't a total dick. Also, I use more loose definition of "deathlord" where they are very powerful ghost, there are dozens of them, and none of them are uber-powerful or stupid-immortal) and one of the players played up the theme and went with social-charisma Midnight, who after every battle bargained with slaughtered enemies to convince them to join the winning side all the fun in their feast-halls. The army was evocative, especially as the Midnight who used get 2 and 3 dice stunts like crazy coming with pre-written speeches for before and after battles.. fun times.
 
Dabblers and people who aren't going hard-core into "armies of the Dead" don't use perfect automata. The mainstay of the Dead should be ghosts fighting for you, whether as spirits or inhabiting bodies (or terracotta clay golems).
Not Exalted, but I once had a character idea for a "good guy" necromancer who was basically an elite soldier whose support network (emotional as well as physical) had been completely wiped out and had turned to summoning and bargaining with their ghosts for the skills, knowledge, and companionship to keep going.

Perfect automata would have worked very poorly for that.
 
Honestly, only the lowest tier of undead should be mindless, with a few exceptions of course. Sure, a zombie has perfect morale, making a battlegroup of them rather hard to kill quickly. But...they're lacking any kind of intelligence, not even the bestial instincts of a Po. The result is fairly evident in a zombie's stat block. They have horrible attributes and abilities, giving them tiny dicepools and thus extremely crappy accuracy. I mean, a zombie in E3 has 5 dice to attack at most. That's worse than a conscript or levy.

In other words, zombies are only a threat when they are a) fighting children, unarmed civilians and so on, b) show up in huge numbers so that the magnitude bonus to accuracy lets them actually hit stuff, or c) are commanded by a competent commander that spends his turn on command actions.

That's working as intended, if you ask me. Sure, your zombies can massacre civilians and are a great terror weapon but if you want to actually beat other armies, you need competent and intelligent lieutenants who can flee, desert or be taken out by a well-placed arrow or you need to gather a massive horde and at that point, you're running into logistical issues where you need to massacre entire cities or find fresh battlefields and you're constantly losing zombies as they rot away or get destroyed and so on.

So sure, go ahead and make your army of perfect morale guys...and then watch as a competent army cuts its way through it slowly but surely as you wish you had some warghosts to back you up or tell your zombies to bite harder.
 
In other words, zombies are only a threat when they are a) fighting children, unarmed civilians and so on, b) show up in huge numbers so that the magnitude bonus to accuracy lets them actually hit stuff, or c) are commanded by a competent commander that spends his turn on command actions.
Or if they are purposefully contaminated and used as bio-weapons.
 
So sure, go ahead and make your army of perfect morale guys...and then watch as a competent army cuts its way through it slowly but surely as you wish you had some warghosts to back you up or tell your zombies to bite harder.

Sure, but that should be because perfect morale in and of itself is a ridiculously powerful trait which costs a shit-ton and therefore if you want soldiers with perfect morale you're going to be paying for it, and probably through the nose. Because once you have soldiers with perfect morale, your military force is basically invincible to anything but supernatural effects (and I guess being hacked to death over the course of hours). The kinds of weapons which could render armies with perfect morale ineffective-massed artillery, automatic weapons, and the like-don't exist in Exalted except as supernatural effects, and are often limited to powerful and experienced Exalts and sorcerers.

Bonus points for perfect morale + indefinite endurance.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, it's probably worth to note here that the average mortality of a battle for roman legions was 4.2% in victories and 16% in defeat.

An army that fights until death (Or until the commander decides to retire) is basically invencible at the tech level of most of Creation.
 
Last edited:
The easy solution to that is to make zombies hard to make, in that while you can convince a bunch of sapient ghosts to fight for you, you need to spend hours of your own time to animate a zombie (borrowing mechanics from demon summoning). Hordes of zombies, rather than shock troops, are the domain of Void circle necromancy. If you want a few thousand animated corpses slaughtering your enemies for you, you need to use the Necromantic equivalent of Incantation of the Invincible Army, and once you stop animating them, they die again.
 
The even easier solution, of course, its just to say than non-sentient zombies actually aren't a thing. You either get some kind of intelligent hun ghost (with or without corpse) or a po one (which is a ravening beast).

Honestly, i don't see the need for zombie automata. If you want an automata, make an automata.
 
Last edited:
Well, since people are talking about magically enhanced armies, I have a question. What would a hypothetical Infernal army look like?
Say we have a certain Slayer - let's call him Joe - and he marches on a certain fortified settlement A, blighting the land behind him, poisoning rivers with vitriol and turning the skies black and green with the fires of his war-host. What would people in the settlement A see when they look at the advancing army?
I think that it would actually be really cool - and appropriate - for Joe's army to be made out of mortals. But not simple, vanilla mortal soldiers. To me, it makes perfect sense for an Infernal army to be made out of horrificaly disfigured, poisoned prisoners who have been tortured by hellish Sorcery, exposed to vitriol and fused with pieces of burning brass. It even makes sense in the context - the Yozi almost certainly used endless armies of their First Circle servants during the Incarnae Rebellion, but now that they are chained and maimed, they have no choise but to turn to humans, even though they hate them. Someone could probably even make a few Malfean charms that reward Slayers for abusing their troops to make them fight better (by maybe giving them mutations - then we can have Infernal armies look like the armies of Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy). What do you think?
 
The even easier solution, of course, its just to say than non-sentient zombies actually aren't a thing, and that you either get some kind of intelligent hun ghost (with or without corpse) or a po one (which is a ravening beast).

Honestly, i don't see the need for zombie automata. If you want an automata, make an automata.

I don't mind the idea that the average 'zombie' you can make is going to be 'controlled' insofar as you can basically tell it not to eat your friends (if you don't have that many friends) and that's about it and that if you want to make an undead automata it's going to be more of a flesh golem than a zombie.
 
I largely agree with Omicron on the topic of Demon "Army" vs Undead Army.

With the limitations of Emerald magic, you're probably going to end up more with squads of elites or specialized units more than anything. I would, however, speculate that there exists Sapphire and Adamant level summons that, as an alternative to summoning a Second or Third Circle, allow you to summon a fuckton of First Circles. That would probably require similar set ups to the higher Circles(Sapphire equivalent needs to be done on the New Moon, etc), and require you to "group bind" them rather than do so individually.

As for a full scale Undead Army.....hm.

Okay, so on a basic level you don't have to worry about a lot of the supply issues that other armies do. Your guys don't eat or drink after all. Depending on the Dead you're using, you probably don't require as much in terms of weapons and armor. However, you've got a rather critical weakness that other people don't.

Your army is fucked over by Sunlight.

This limits you to moving around and fighting during the night with your full army. Unless you're packing some serious mojo that lets you blacken the skies with unnatural night to let your Undead army rampage freely, of course.

Lacking that, a Dead Army probably has a few similarities to a Demon Army, in that it relies on squads of elites rather than a full scale army. You and any necromancer servants you have probably have a few methods of carrying around Dead(likely one variety of ghost or another) with you during the daylight hours, but that probably gets impractical for large scale use.

If you are going for a fullscale undead army(and probably sans portable everlasting night), then you're probably going to want to use Shadowlands as your staging grounds. In order to advance, you need to have more Shadowlands waiting for you otherwise you're going to get roasted when the sun comes up. Now, you've got some mobility that others lack, as you can use the Shadowlands to access the Underworld and travel around that way. From there, you probably want to send elites and/or heroes either to settlements surrounding your target or else your target itself. Their job is pave the way for the main army by creating a Shadowland. Now, they can do this via mass slaughter but killing that many people that quickly to make a large enough Shadowland is somewhat difficult. They probably want to use some sort of blasphemous ritual to do it instead, giving you neat objectives to pull off or stop, depending on which end of the Dead Army you're on.

Now, let's assume you've sorted out the various logistical issues involved in getting an undead army together and in place to ruin someone's whole day. Let's talk about what you're working with.

The most basic unit you're working with is the humble zombie and/or skeleton warrior. These fuckers are mindless automatons, good for cannon fodder and overwhelming an enemy location. They can be fairly easily refueled by a quick stop at either a graveyard or just picking over the left overs after a battle. It's probably fairly easy to stay zombie neutral in most situations. Provided you don't have some magical assholes leaving bodies in too small chunks to be useful, anyway.

Unfortunately, they're dumb as bricks and if you want them to use weapons, you're probably best off just chopping off their hands and sticking a sword in place. But again, they're dumb. You can somewhat mitigate this by sticking a minder for them to obey, but if that guy gets taken out the most your zombies are going to do is charge at anything living and try and tear them apart.

All that said, they do have perfect moral and are effectively tireless. That's a pretty brutal combination to lob at people, so your enemy is going to be fucked unless they can field A)overwhelming numbers, B) supernaturally powerful warriors like Exalted(who are probably more needed elsewhere), or C) anti-Dead magic, which is both unfortunately common among the great powers of the world and a serious kick to the balls for the Dead.

Above them, you've got your various War-ghosts. For the most part, these guys are mortal+. They're largely tireless, mostly fearless, and dedicated fighters. There's some variety on the exact type you've got to work with. Some may have some magics to call on to make them more of a threat, which is certainly useful. You could probably expect them to take on an equal or slightly greater mass of mortal soldiers and come out on top.

On the downside, weaker ones probably aren't that much smarter than zombies and stronger and smarter ones probably need more compelling than "I am mighty necromancer, OBEY ME!"

Somewhat to the side, you've got your necromantic war-beasts. These are probably Po ghosts that have had some time to ripen and mutate. For the most part, these serve as line breakers and moral breakers and back breakers and breakers of many things. They are strong, durable, have instinctual magic to call on to up their already considerable danger. Unfortunately, they've got control issues.

As in, you're probably going to need some dedicated magic to keep them from eating your own army. Getting them to work with each other may be difficult or easy depending on what kind of Po you're working with. Some may naturally form "packs" and so be relatively easy to control and direct. Some may be solitary monsters that prefer to stay that way by eating others of their kind. You probably want the former, but sometimes you've got to make due with the latter and some necromantic control.

These guys, zombies, war-ghosts, and po-beasts, are your meat and potatoes. Most every Dead army will have them in some capacity, with variations largely dependent on the cultural magic and influence on the dead.

So with that out of the way, let's talk about your big guns. Your necromantically enhanced forces.

Now, for these mean bastards, you've got a variety of customization.

You might construct corpse bodies with in built and magically enhanced weapons and armor, with enhanced physical attributes and protection against most common anti-Dead magics and weapons and possibly with certain additional magics built in. These you could stick war-ghosts or nemissaries into to create what is basically power armored infantry.

You might take one of your more intelligent war-ghosts and a po-beast and fuse them together with necromancy, creating a particularly powerful Dead lieutenant and/or elite trouble shooter.

For example, one possibility is to fuse them into a sort of centaur like configuration, letting them play the role of magically enhanced cavalry. To say nothing of the enhancements the war-ghost's native magics will get from being plug into a Po soul.

A slightly more economical approach would be to use necromancy to reshape and reconfigure your ghosts. You wont be able to alter their overall power all that much, but you could "respec" your standard issue war-ghosts for use in sea based combat, even if they never been on a boat in life or death before. You might reroute some power of a po-beast to give it wings and let it fly around and harass the enemy, etc.

For siege engines, you've got more than few options. But your basic would be a combination of dead flesh and bone, and necromantically enchanted metals, likely things like iron or soulsteel. These are big, customizable nightmares infused with various dread powers and powered by the souls of the unquiet dead you've got bound up inside. Probably a number of po-beasts subservient to a Hun soul commander.

Now, as a general thing for your necromantically enhanced murderbeasts, you've got three main options for obtaining them.

The first method is through Artifice. This method is time consuming and resource intensive, but falls pretty firmly on the "right" end of the old "do things fast or do things right" style of management.

The second method is through Necromancy/Sorcery. This is considerably faster and generally easier than Artifice, but may require certain rituals for large scale effects. It also carries the risk of Countermagic being used against you.

The final method is to draw power from the Labyrinth and/or Neverborn. This can solve a lot of problems you may be facing as the leader of an undead army, but carries with it the flaw of turning your dudes into Nephwracks, who are both horribly insane by Dead standards and consumed with a deep and unabiding hatred of all life. Sometimes, this may be an advantage. More often, it is not.
 
With the limitations of Emerald magic, you're probably going to end up more with squads of elites or specialized units more than anything. I would, however, speculate that there exists Sapphire and Adamant level summons that, as an alternative to summoning a Second or Third Circle, allow you to summon a fuckton of First Circles. That would probably require similar set ups to the higher Circles(Sapphire equivalent needs to be done on the New Moon, etc), and require you to "group bind" them rather than do so individually.
If I'm remembering correctly, it's not a spell, but a particular Manse feature that lets you turn the normal summoning spell for Second or Third Circles into a method of summoning large numbers of those descended from them.

For other methods of making a demon army, though, I wouldn't use Sorcery at all. Binding is very convenient for elite units that you really want obeying you directly, but for common soldiers? What you want is a few years of preparing through social methods to make them loyal to you without being bound, and then use Training Charms to teach mortals Beckoning Thaumaturgy, so you can pull them out at the rate of hundreds per day.
 
and then use Training Charms to teach mortals Beckoning Thaumaturgy, so you can pull them out at the rate of hundreds per day.

This doesn't work.

Unless you can somehow produce beckoning reagents at an industrial rate, and if you can do that, you probably don't need a demon army anyway since you already conquered a direction or two.
 
If I'm remembering correctly, it's not a spell, but a particular Manse feature that lets you turn the normal summoning spell for Second or Third Circles into a method of summoning large numbers of those descended from them.

For other methods of making a demon army, though, I wouldn't use Sorcery at all. Binding is very convenient for elite units that you really want obeying you directly, but for common soldiers? What you want is a few years of preparing through social methods to make them loyal to you without being bound, and then use Training Charms to teach mortals Beckoning Thaumaturgy, so you can pull them out at the rate of hundreds per day.

Well, the problem with that scheme is that the demons are quirky; and Thaumaturgy require 1) tones of resources 2) bargaining i.e. giving demons what they want. So you need more than Training charm, you need infrastructure. Your " few years of preparing through social methods " require for you to spend several years in Hell building power base. It's hard for Infernals to do, because they spend most of their time away on the missions. It's insanely hard for any other type of Exalt.
 
As a minor note that amuses me; for all that it's going for cinematic combat, the Ex3 combat system actually works surprisingly well as a simulation of actual ancient world massed warfare.
 
This doesn't work.

Unless you can somehow produce beckoning reagents at an industrial rate, and if you can do that, you probably don't need a demon army anyway since you already conquered a direction or two.
Well, the problem with that scheme is that the demons are quirky; and Thaumaturgy require 1) tones of resources 2) bargaining i.e. giving demons what they want. So you need more than Training charm, you need infrastructure. Your " few years of preparing through social methods " require for you to spend several years in Hell building power base. It's hard for Infernals to do, because they spend most of their time away on the missions. It's insanely hard for any other type of Exalt.
...Riiight, Thaumaturgy actually requires resources when mortals do it. I forgot about that, because even when the ability to spend motes instead is removed the expenditure for the number of rituals a single person can do is negligible to an Exalt, but given that I'm talking about training hundreds of mortals to do so, it actually becomes a problem.

As for the difficulties with setting up power bases in Hell, I was anticipating that actually being the single biggest problem that stops Demon armies being a common thing. It would make it actually take effort to achieve even for a well-established Exalt, which is only fair for something as powerful as entire armies of Demons.
 
...Riiight, Thaumaturgy actually requires resources when mortals do it. I forgot about that, because even when the ability to spend motes instead is removed the expenditure for the number of rituals a single person can do is negligible to an Exalt, but given that I'm talking about training hundreds of mortals to do so, it actually becomes a problem.

As for the difficulties with setting up power bases in Hell, I was anticipating that actually being the single biggest problem that stops Demon armies being a common thing. It would make it actually take effort to achieve even for a well-established Exalt, which is only fair for something as powerful as entire armies of Demons.
The thing about Malfean power-bases is that it's relatively easy to set yourself up as some big 3CD's lieutenant and have him front the army while you build up a bunch of thaumaturges to beckon them.

You will have problems making your boss's army be subtle and obedient, but that's easier to get around.
 
As for the difficulties with setting up power bases in Hell, I was anticipating that actually being the single biggest problem that stops Demon armies being a common thing.

No, the real big problem is that the yozi are a bunch of petty losers and don't want demons to escape if they can't do it.

Any method to bring demons in masse to creation needs a way to make them cross the infinite desert, either by getting her approval* or by somehow leading them through murderous sandstorms.


*(And good luck with that, the demon lords havn't managed to do that in thousands of years)
 
Last edited:
Back
Top