The even easier solution, of course, its just to say than non-sentient zombies actually aren't a thing. You either get some kind of intelligent hun ghost (with or without corpse) or a po one (which is a ravening beast).

Honestly, i don't see the need for zombie automata. If you want an automata, make an automata.

Really, when it comes down to it, grabbing a bunch of pos (human or animal, it doesn't matter) and stuffing them into corpses to get a mockery of life gets you most of the zombie niche already. They're going to lean more to being fast zombies, but you know what? I'm pretty down with the idea that a po-necromancer has an army which resembles Left 4 Dead [1], while a hun-summoner has an army that resembles Aragon's ghost army or... like, Tomb Kings.

Except these Tomb Kings don't have perfect morale, but they do have better-than-human morale as a baseline when facing foes that they know can't kill them by destroying their body. Which means that a skeleton army is pretty scary and hard to break when facing mortals, but has morale kick back in when going up against supernatural opponents - especially Solars with all that scary sunlight)

[1] Special Infected are those po souls more powerful than average whose power reshapes their host bodies to their theme.
 
@EarthScorpion
Since we're discussing the topic of using the Dead as minions, what happened to Po Souls of all the Solars the Wyld Hunt killed over the millenia since the Usurpation? There may only have been six Exaltations available that whole time, but they must have made a very large number of them, all of whom died in likely violent ways within a decade at most each. Did the Hunt have some sort of standard procedure that stopped the souls from lingering where they could eventually cause problems, or did they end up making tombs that are far less extravagant than the stereotypical one, but which still holds the Po soul?
 
@EarthScorpion
Since we're discussing the topic of using the Dead as minions, what happened to Po Souls of all the Solars the Wyld Hunt killed over the millenia since the Usurpation? There may only have been six Exaltations available that whole time, but they must have made a very large number of them, all of whom died in likely violent ways within a decade at most each. Did the Hunt have some sort of standard procedure that stopped the souls from lingering where they could eventually cause problems, or did they end up making tombs that are far less extravagant than the stereotypical one, but which still holds the Po soul?

Most of the time? The Wyld Hunt killed the Solar, and then gave them an honourable cremation using the approved rituals for placating the Anathema's vengence, while praying for the dead Solar's soul to move onto the circle of reincarnation and that their moral weakness in letting an Anathema take them over not overly harm their next life. It generally works. Most Solars get a simple stone marker where their personal possessions and ashes are placed, which is then filled in and plants planted on top.

(Yes, this does mean that if a Solar looted a Solar tomb, there might be a grave somewhere in Creation with gorgeous orichalcum blades and armour in it. Also, a few "god-blooded" trees that have captured some of the Solar power of the corpse.)

The First Age Solars were notably decadent and had exceptionally high standards - and were bloated with power. The thing that has to be remembered, too, is that while an Enlightenment 6 newly Dead Solar po is a scary monster comparable to a 2CD, an Enlightenment 10 Solar's ghost is a fucking fetich-tier abomination. To be honest, a Wyld Hunt can deal with a newly Exalted Solar's po if it rises. It'll be tough, but they can do it.

A high Enlightenment po can TPK an unprepared Wyld Hunt and requires Sidereal intervention.
 
In case anyone was wondering, the physical book is very nice. Solid binding, nice paper, good print quality, shiny golden page-edges, an elegant cover, all in all very nice. Almost makes me regret houseruling so heavily that I can barely use it.

Cloth map is good too, although I wish they hadn't folded it for transport.

Demons exist as a terrible addition to normal armies, small groups of freakish monsters whose spiritual power and unique capabilities vastly expand the toolkit of an otherwise mortal army. When you go to war with demons you go to war with a human army and you bring a few dozens blood apes and you use them as a single wedge to break enemy ranks with their superior prowess and mortal-slaying powers, and you hope you lose no more than one per day on average for your whole campaign.

Or you summon up someone like Madelrada. She's got an army for a body...and conveniently, each of her soldiers appears mundane enough to keep the visual effect from being silly.

I'm once again reminded that Exalted really needs mechanics for strategic-level actions.

Ex3 has some. They're not deep, but they seem pretty solid to me.

Yeah, it's probably worth to note here that the average mortality of a battle for roman legions was 4.2% in victories and 16% in defeat.

An army that fights until death (Or until the commander decides to retire) is basically invencible at the tech level of most of Creation.

I dunno about that. The fact that soldiers feel fear, and know when to fold, was part of what kept the casualties so low.

Wiping out a unit of zombies is a lot easier than wiping out a unit of humans, because it won't break or even tactically retreat when it finds itself doomed.

I actually like the way Ex3 handles perfect morale, for the record.
 
I dunno about that. The fact that soldiers feel fear, and know when to fold, was part of what kept the casualties so low.

Wiping out a unit of zombies is a lot easier than wiping out a unit of humans, because it won't break or even tactically retreat when it finds itself doomed.

I actually like the way Ex3 handles perfect morale, for the record.
I thought that breaking and running was generally what allowed massive casualties. Wiping out zombies is easier in the sense that if ordered they won't decline battle, but as a result you're actually going to be in combat longer, which greatly increases the chance of death and the like.

Well, in the zombie case it's also because they're terrible, but more effective mindless undead/others with perfect moral would avoid that issue.
 
I've been thinking about Warstriders, Gunzosha and similar things. This quest has 'mecha' that are smaller-scale and lower-tech than warstriders and I thought to myself, which area of Creation might have something like these? I mean, they're very much Exalted-style in small numbers. Maybe Halta or some nation of the East has some mighty wooden puppet-mecha that, while possessing no magitech weapons, wield weapons larger than men and can hunt Tyrant Lizards and the like? I feel that such things would be passed down the lines of noble families, the suits powered by the 'least' gods in charge of them, bloated with the prayer of the villages that swear fealty to them, or fueled by terrible Ancestor-Heroes who have existed for centuries.
 
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So, just out of curiosity, does anything special happen if a hun possesses the po that belonged to the same person?
 
So, just out of curiosity, does anything special happen if a hun possesses the po that belonged to the same person?

IIRC, there's mention of a heretical cult that does something like that in CoCD: Autochthonia. They commit ritual suicide in a way that leaves their Hun possessing their body, and their Po is held in place in their soulgem. They think this makes them immortal. Instead, it makes them ghosts sharing a corpse with a trapped but furious Po (hint - dying in a blasphemous ritual and then having your corpse possessed does not result in a happy hungry ghost.) They still suffer from their intimacies becoming fetters, and meanwhile the Po may gain enough power to brah out and take over, at least temporarily.

Of course, your mileage may vary on whether or not this is weird-cool or stupid and unthematic, just like most of the other stuff in that book.
 
The First Age Solars were notably decadent and had exceptionally high standards - and were bloated with power. The thing that has to be remembered, too, is that while an Enlightenment 6 newly Dead Solar po is a scary monster comparable to a 2CD, an Enlightenment 10 Solar's ghost is a fucking fetich-tier abomination. To be honest, a Wyld Hunt can deal with a newly Exalted Solar's po if it rises. It'll be tough, but they can do it.

A high Enlightenment po can TPK an unprepared Wyld Hunt and requires Sidereal intervention.
This raises a question: Are there any Deathlords that gained their power through means other than the standard 'gorge on the corruption of the Neverborn', like say, devouring the po of a high-enlightenment Exalt?
 
So, just out of curiosity, does anything special happen if a hun possesses the po that belonged to the same person?
Spirits generally can't possess spirits, only 'physical' creatures. You could homebrew a variety of creatures born of a hun consuming a pow or fusing with it, however.
 
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This raises a question: Are there any Deathlords that gained their power through means other than the standard 'gorge on the corruption of the Neverborn', like say, devouring the po of a high-enlightenment Exalt?

No. The only way to become a Lord of Death is to directly or indirectly feed off the Neverborn.

Gaining power by eating other ghosts and/or their passions and fetters is one of the described routes for ascending to Greater Dead status - the "Sin-Eater" path.
 
No. The only way to become a Lord of Death is to directly or indirectly feed off the Neverborn.

Gaining power by eating other ghosts and/or their passions and fetters is one of the described routes for ascending to Greater Dead status - the "Sin-Eater" path.
Mind you, I'd rule that a sufficiently grotesque intake of powerful souls would eventually let a Sin-Eater reach the point where they could give a non-veteran deathlord pause for thought.
 
Mind you, I'd rule that a sufficiently grotesque intake of powerful souls would eventually let a Sin-Eater reach the point where they could give a non-veteran deathlord pause for thought.

Oh, indeed. Greater Dead live in the 2CD ballpark, Deathlords in the 3CD ballpark - and very powerful 2CDs can reach E7-8, so they're basically peers of a weak E8 3CD.

In Hell, the 3CD has the law of Cecelyne on its side and the solid knowledge that if a 2CD tries to kill it, all the other 3CDs will come down like a tonne of very very spiky bricks on whoever did it because the 3CDs don't want 2CDs getting ideas, even if they didn't like the 3CD in question.

There isn't the same thing in the Underworld. Greater Dead murdering and eating Deathlords and stealing their power is... well, not routine, but it's one of the most accepted ways to achieve the status of Deathlord.

(This is one of the reasons that your average Deathlord is notably more badass than your average 3CD. 3CDs can spend centuries trying to develop a new colour between blue and green or sitting on a cloud shooting arrows at blood apes and getting drunk and the worst they'll probably have to face is losing influence because of 3CD politicking. Third Circles can be soft, decadent and self-indulgent. Deathlords have to always be cautious of the risk that some uppity Greater Dead is gunning for them.)
 
I dunno about that. The fact that soldiers feel fear, and know when to fold, was part of what kept the casualties so low.

Wiping out a unit of zombies is a lot easier than wiping out a unit of humans, because it won't break or even tactically retreat when it finds itself doomed.
I thought that breaking and running was generally what allowed massive casualties. Wiping out zombies is easier in the sense that if ordered they won't decline battle, but as a result you're actually going to be in combat longer, which greatly increases the chance of death and the like.
You're kind of both right.

Most of the casualties of a battle would generally happen after one side had already routed, as their victorious enemies ran down whoever they could catch... But simple fear also meant that remarkably little of the battle was made up of what we would think of as actual fighting.

Fundamentally, we don't want to kill each other. Even more fundamentally, we really don't want to die. All those depictions of ancient battles as two armies charging towards each to meet with a great clash and smash of swinging weapons and screams? That's mostly fiction.

What actually tended to happen is closer to mob riots vs police actions, or posturing between large gangs. This is basically how the Republican armies of Rome dealt with shield walls.

Historically, professional soldiers have tended to be only a small part of a countries army compared to a majority of some form of levy or militia, essentially civilians with basic equipment. These people were the product of a violent age, but they were still people much like you or me, mostly unwilling to really kill one another.

So, you'd have two big mobs of soldiers swaggering up to within spitting distance of each other with their swords and their armour and their spiky bitz. And then they stop. They start shouting at each other, banging on shields, hurling insults, throwing bits of mud and broken gear and stones - which the other side then throws back. A well-flung rock can be surprisingly deadly, so that will cause some injuries and deaths, but it's mostly about making themselves look big and scary. Like puffer fish.

Every now and then a small group on one side will psyche themselves up sufficiently to actually go and attack, so there'll be a sortie from somewhere along the line, a brief scuffle of shoving with shields and stabbing with spears, and that'll kill a few more among the screams and clatter that rattles everybody around... and then they fall back, and they all go back to yelling and banging on shields and chucking stuff.

This state of affairs will go on for hours, until finally one side just says, I've had enough! I've been standing on my feet all day holding this heavy godsdamned shield, I'm cold, I'm wet, I'm hungry, I'm pretty sure I'm standing in the piss of the guy behind me, I think I've gone deaf from all this yelling... I'm going home.

If they're really resolved, it might take a mass charge to tip them over that last inch, and a lot of the yelling and banging is to psyche yourself up for that. But in the main, that's it. That's your grand battle. An awful lot of yelling and mucking about, and then one side just leaves.

This is why professionally trained soldiers have historically been so important, because actual fighting on a mass scale is incredibly deadly. @Pale Wolf can cover this in more detail, but the short of it is that there's far, far too much going on from far too many angles to really defend yourself for any length of time. It's messy and uncertain, and that's a very dangerous state of affairs when there's so many weapons about. Injury and death happens quickly, usually in a matter of heartbeats. Most battles had very low casualty percentages - but the great proportion of those casualties would be from the brief spates of what we would think of as proper combat.

So, professional troops with the training and mindset necessary to seek out the enemy and truly engage them, often had a profound effect on the battle. Their confidence and comfort with the hack and slash of 'real' fighting doesn't just make them less likely to rout, it also makes them an order of magnitude more deadly than militia troops, which in turn makes them more shocking and frightening, compounding their effects.

So, an army of zombies, combatants who are fundamentally incompetent but have perfect morale, is likely to take heavy casualties due to its willingness to give battle even on unfavourable terms. But the flipside of that is that its willingness to give battle, period, is going to inflict heavy casualties which an enemy without perfect morale will struggle to endure, even without the extra fear factor of fighting the walking dead.

This is also why I said that the Ex3 system is rather good at simulating ancient world warfare, because it's trivial to cast all that shouting and banging on shields and throwing stuff as withering attacks to demoralise the enemy and psyche up your troops (reducing your opponents Initiative and building your own) to prepare for an actual attack that will cause appreciable damage - or, in other words, a decisive attack.
 
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You're kind of both right.

Most of the casualties of a battle would generally happen after one side had already routed, as their victorious enemies ran down whoever they could catch... But simple fear also meant that remarkably little of the battle was made up of what we would think of as actual fighting.
Ah, I misspoke: I meant what allowed massive one sided casualties. Your point is what I was trying to get at, though you stated it much better.
 
So more musing about the Dead for @EarthScorpion 's benefit:

Until a more suitable warfare/strategic system is drafted, a lot of this is mostly idle noodling, but here goes. Each 'path' to power should either have a very unique and central theme/advantage, and mechanics to support it, or they should all overlap to a degree and have equal-costed investment. Maybe a mix of both.

The interesting part here is pinning down aesthetics...

like, flat out, the Dead do not do well in the sun or fight at their best during the day. That is already a huge aesthetic boon. I could even say that this only applies outside of Shadowlands, as the wan light of the Sun inside those borderlands does not impede the Dead at all. In the Underworld, I could assume it always 'counts' as night at all times.

So you have this very clear strategic bias of 'fight at night', which mortals are already bad at anyway. You could double down on it further and give necromancers and such various powers that work better at night to further buff their forces. This means that shadowlands are a nightmare for non-supernaturals to dig into, because mortals have a harder time bringing in light and purifying fires.

Tangenting slightly, it's worth noting that Exalted zombies have never been shambling infectious types- they are either automatons who happen to use meat (which I think ES is depreciating?) or corpses that are being rode by bound ghosts. So the conclusion of 'Fast Zombies' being the default is fine.

Hmm. I have to leave for work, but I hope that's interesting to start with.
 
Tangenting slightly, it's worth noting that Exalted zombies have never been shambling infectious types- they are either automatons who happen to use meat (which I think ES is depreciating?) or corpses that are being rode by bound ghosts. So the conclusion of 'Fast Zombies' being the default is fine.

Hmm. I have to leave for work, but I hope that's interesting to start with.
There was one infection type zombie in 2nd edition (deathlord made it, then lost it somewhere), and are in the core of 3rd edition.
 
So, an army of zombies, combatants who are fundamentally incompetent but have perfect morale, is likely to take heavy casualties due to its willingness to give battle even on unfavourable terms. But the flipside of that is that its willingness to give battle, period, is going to inflict heavy casualties which an enemy without perfect morale will struggle to endure, even without the extra fear factor of fighting the walking dead.

Another thing to consider is that ultimately, a zombie is much better at brushing off damage than a human.

They don't feel pain and well, they're already dead. What's stabbing them in the guts(which they may not even have!) going to do?

Depending on how well they're made, a zombie may not even stop unless decapitated or rendered physically incapable of continuing a fight.


At least against mortals with ordinary weapons, anyway. I would speculate that there's more than a few thaumaturgical rituals that exist to make weapons and armor more effective against the Dead.

Tangenting slightly, it's worth noting that Exalted zombies have never been shambling infectious types- they are either automatons who happen to use meat (which I think ES is depreciating?) or corpses that are being rode by bound ghosts. So the conclusion of 'Fast Zombies' being the default is fine.

ES has mentioned a few times that in his Creation, the Moon also fucks over the Dead, reducing their mental capabilities with the Full Moon turning them into shamblers, while during the New Moon they're runners.
 
More random musing, hoping that ES' find some good points:

We shouldn't underestimate the less obvious advantages. In normal warfare well provisioned, bravely defended fortress could be taken only by surprise, treachery or long siege leading to starvation. The last option become way more practical if your own troops don't need to eat, have resistance to diarrhea and don't freeze during winters.

Not to mention the truly absurd uses of ghost-spies or even binding the old Shogunate ghosts to give you other advantages like training and strategic know-how. I mean, the Creation outside of Blessed Isle had lost vast quantities of knowledge about strategic warfare along with all other topics; getting competent generals is a problem. I remember that it took several centuries for medieval kings to graduate from "God is with us, I am leading the charge" to "I'll stay behind and send troops to reinforce in critical places of battle".

Binding the ghost of an architect of unassailable stronghold build to interrogate him about possible secret passages (happened twice in my campaigns) is also good idea.

Other than that, there is more than one way to skin the cat - and zombies that can simply move faster and without wagons with food and stuff could run circles around conventional army, attacking undefended targets, never taking significant losses and growing on corpses and ghosts and spreading terror without fighting in pitch battles.

Speaking of terror tactics, sending the ghost of fallen comrades (or making zombies out of them) to demoralize enemies forces is classic for every necromancer.

The same goes for setting ambush and the Dead have several options unavailable to more traditional armies. We could simply burrow the zombie in the path (or even better with excellency-enchanted roll to predict right place) under the place where the enemy force will make camp next night (did that to my players when they were fighting desert campign against First and Forsaken Lion forces, they were not amused).

But for me, the key to making Underworld armies scary and different on strategic level is Shadowland spread. I played lots of Starcraft and the Zerg's creep is a great model, IMHO, where every acre of land claimed by the Dead is serious problem. Patient Abyssal general could just push and push the Shadowland boarders and those who wish to stop him need to go on his territory and attack - and every battle fought close to Shadowland's boarders will result in more Shadowland spread on top of clear defender advanatages. So it's lose-lose situation for everyone without overwhelming force and supernatural backing to roll back or contain Shadowland.
 
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It just occurred to me that when it comes to summoning and binding 3CD-level entities using necromancy, doing it to high-enlightenment yidaks of ancient Exalts may just be slightly safer than doing it to Deathlords, if only because yidaks usually can't send a crack team of Abyssals after the summoner in retaliation for the slight.

I imagine there exist necromancer archetypes that breaks open tombs of ancient Solars not just for the nifty artifacts, but also to capture the angry po souls that would be roused by the intrusion.
 
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I imagine there exist necromancer archetypes that breaks open tombs of ancient Solars not just for the nifty artifacts, but also to capture the angry po souls that would be roused by the intrusion.
That was actually why I was asking about the po souls of the young Solars killed between the Usurpation and current age. They're Second Circle level instead of Third, but there's thousands of them.

...Or there would be, if every killed Solar left behind a ghost and they weren't disturbed and killed already during the millenia they've been gathering dust.
 
It just occurred to me that when it comes to summoning and binding 3CD-level entities using necromancy, doing it to high-enlightenment yidaks of ancient Exalts may just be slightly safer than doing it to Deathlords, if only because yidaks usually can't send a crack team of Abyssals after the summoner in retaliation for the slight.

I imagine there exist necromancer archetypes that breaks open tombs of ancient Solars not just for the nifty artifacts, but also to capture the angry po souls that would be roused by the intrusion.
It's worth remembering that more than a few Deathlords under @EarthScorpion's model don't have Abyssals, or necessarily even all that much infrastructure; sure, you've got dark overlords of the dead, but there's also lone mad(wo)men, weird horrors more akin to a hekatoncheire than anything human, and even Deathlords that went mad enough that they never left the Labyrinth, waiting to be uncovered and called forth by a sufficiently-foolhardy Necromancer.
 
That was actually why I was asking about the po souls of the young Solars killed between the Usurpation and current age. They're Second Circle level instead of Third, but there's thousands of them.

...Or there would be, if every killed Solar left behind a ghost and they weren't disturbed and killed already during the millenia they've been gathering dust.
You know who else leaves behind 2CD'ish ghosts? Elder Dragonbloods. Which makes me wonder if there weren't some small nation far away from the Realm ruled by Dragonblooded gens that makes a habit of binding the yidaks of their ancestors using Laby-

...

Oh wait, DBs don't get Celestial/Labyrinth circle stuffs. Well, they could always use the shackling method talked about earlier in the thread, I guess.
 
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