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General Exalted Thread

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The Laurent said:
I mean, as I kinda said when I suggested we might want to move to the WoD we're talking about nWoD here and you're trying to bring your Styles into it? ...Man, that'd be a huge overhaul, and I honestly don't think it'd really help the system that much?

Also, frankly, I think what having just one Social Attribute does is mostly just devalue it? It becomes the D&D thing where you can trivially make it a dump stat or ignore it because you can "get good" at social trivially easily compared to "getting good" at literally any and all other aspects of the game, so you just invest a few XP and then ignore it for what the game has all but told you is the real important thing: the combat.
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Move more social stuff to Perception and Composure/Willpower as rolled stats. Social encounters become a mixture of figuring out what people want, what people are trying to get out of you, maintaining a poker face, and actually convincing people of stuff. It runs into some of the same issues but that's basically inevitable.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Pfft. "The D&D thing". That has never not also been an White Wolf thing too. Look at system complexity. You might act sneeringly to D&D, but when you compare the relative system complexity and time invested into basic elements of the game you find that the Storytelling/Storyteller system thinks the really important thing is combat.

And that's even more true in Exalted. Just compare the amount of Charmtech development between the aspects of the game. By the end of 2e, the number of Solar Hero Style charms was comparable to a MoEP.

The social system is already pre-devalued. All it is right now is an XP trap punishing people who don't have the system mastery to realise that a Manipulation 5, Charisma 5 character is not meaningfully much better at social things than the Manipulation 5, Charisma 2 character. And that's bad design.

If you want social things to be put on an equal footing with combat, then go write a better system where there is a meaningfully different mechanical role for two social Attributes - or simplify the combat system down as well and use the chance to resolve the Dex issue that's existed since, again, 1991. Don't stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that the system as it is puts equal effort into combat and social things.
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Is this really any different then how many systems let you use dexterity or strength of attack depending on your character? It gives two different general approaches to social combat, which work the same way mechanically but define the character as doing it a different way
 
rogthnor said:
Is this really any different then how many systems let you use dexterity or strength of attack depending on your character? It gives two different general approaches to social combat, which work the same way mechanically but define the character as doing it a different way
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What's the difference between using Charisma and Manipulation?
The core says Charisma is how "innately likable" you are, and that it "reflects an air of confidence and social grace". It also says Manipulation covers intentionally coercing, manipulating, tricking, bullying, and leading others, as well as being sly or domineering.
That's a really long-winded way for me to tell you that the core books (1e and 2e) say that Manipulation is what you roll any time you actively attempt to persuade someone.

Strength and Dexterity at least have the artificial division between power and precision for attacks a lot of systems include.
 
azoicennead said:
What's the difference between using Charisma and Manipulation?
The core says Charisma is how "innately likable" you are, and that it "reflects an air of confidence and social grace". It also says Manipulation covers intentionally coercing, manipulating, tricking, bullying, and leading others, as well as being sly or domineering.
That's a really long-winded way for me to tell you that the core books (1e and 2e) say that Manipulation is what you roll any time you actively attempt to persuade someone.

Strength and Dexterity at least have the artificial division between power and precision for attacks a lot of systems include.
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I use whether or not the speaker actually believes what they are saying, though there are other ways to play it. A demagogue is charismatic, their belief in the cause winning you over. manipulators on the other hand, tailor the argument to who they are trying to convince. They don't speak from the heart, so they tend to be less invested in the argument and more about saying what you want to hear
 
rogthnor said:
I use whether or not the speaker actually believes what they are saying, though there are other ways to play it. A demagogue is charismatic, their belief in the cause winning you over. manipulators on the other hand, tailor the argument to who they are trying to convince.
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So you're saying that a manipulator actually knows how to persuade people, then?

What you're describing here isn't a difference between Attributes. What you're describing is that the person who's not tailoring their argument has a low Ability rating than the person who actually knows how to frame their argument. Demagogues sure as hell tailor their message for their audience and their charisma is often based entirely around telling their audience exactly what they want to hear.
 
rogthnor said:
I use whether or not the speaker actually believes what they are saying, though there are other ways to play it. A demagogue is charismatic, their belief in the cause winning you over. manipulators on the other hand, tailor the argument to who they are trying to convince. They don't speak from the heart, so they tend to be less invested in the argument and more about saying what you want to hear
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In an attempt to use a cheap ethos argument, I will point out that as someone who has actually studied rhetoric; I am incredibly unsympathetic to this argument given that it's fucking stupid. A demagogue tailors the fuck out of their argument to ensure that enough will be sympathetic to it, whether they actually speak from the heart or not, while a 'manipulator' as you say (see: any lawyer or politician people don't like), is just a negatively loaded term for 'person good at convincing other people'.
 
rogthnor said:
Is this really any different then how many systems let you use dexterity or strength of attack depending on your character? It gives two different general approaches to social combat, which work the same way mechanically but define the character as doing it a different way
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Dex and Strength in other systems have different out of combat and in combat applications, generally speaking, and allow you to do different things. The builds complement often vastly different styles of play and specializations. Even in Exalted you see some of that, with Strength being tied to damage and Dexterity being God.

Cha/Manip is social only and doesn't vary in mechanical application.
 
Has anybody had any thoughts on how to fix that sort of thing?

I've observed in Exalted 3rd Edition that some dicepools explicitly utilize Charisma, and that Manipulation factors into Guile, an important static value for social influence, and these strike me as a few of the ways to differentiate the two.

I like the notion of having at least 2 attributes which can potentially play into how you socially interact with things that lend itself to multiple ways to accomplish that, but how to do that? Is it actually undesirable for that to be the case?

While the Charisma/Manipulation split is perfectly comfortable for my group, it is interesting to see how others dislike it.
 
Leetsepeak said:
Has anybody had any thoughts on how to fix that sort of thing?

I've observed in Exalted 3rd Edition that some dicepools explicitly utilize Charisma, and that Manipulation factors into Guile, an important static value for social influence, and these strike me as a few of the ways to differentiate the two.

I like the notion of having at least 2 attributes which can potentially play into how you socially interact with things that lend itself to multiple ways to accomplish that, but how to do that? Is it actually undesirable for that to be the case?

While the Charisma/Manipulation split is perfectly comfortable for my group, it is interesting to see how others dislike it.
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Havocfett said:
Move more social stuff to Perception and Composure/Willpower as rolled stats. Social encounters become a mixture of figuring out what people want, what people are trying to get out of you, maintaining a poker face, and actually convincing people of stuff. It runs into some of the same issues but that's basically inevitable.
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Way ahead of you. :V

You can pretty solidly do social with, like, Willpower/2 as one state, Perception as one, and Charisma as one. Charisma is your damage stat/attack stat and can parry, Perception lets you identify weak points (Use a hack like Principles so you either have to identify one of these or have to hope you know one already) see how you're doing and survey a crowd (if applicable), and Willpower/2 or Composure is a combination of defense and health and helps with stuff like maintaining a poker face.
 
rogthnor said:
I use whether or not the speaker actually believes what they are saying, though there are other ways to play it. A demagogue is charismatic, their belief in the cause winning you over. manipulators on the other hand, tailor the argument to who they are trying to convince. They don't speak from the heart, so they tend to be less invested in the argument and more about saying what you want to hear
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Demagogues very regularly garner support by telling people what they want to hear. The modern definition is a political leader who gains support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than using rational arguments.

Furthermore, pretty much every person who seriously wants to convince someone of a point will tailor their argument to the listener. That's 75% of being convincing. If you aren't making a point in a way that's designed to convince your target audience, it's probably not going to be very convincing. This can involve dishonest methods (such as leaving out or downplaying important information that detracts from your stance) or honest ones (such as not bringing up fringe cases or statistical anomalies). Yes, deciding what points to make or not make is tailoring your argument to your audience.

Now, if you want to get really cynical with this, we can talk about how the very act of trying to convince someone of a point is a form of manipulation, but that would inevitably lead into discussions of morality in persuasion tactics.
 
I always figured the simplest way to do it was to have one offensive stat, one defensive stat, and then keep Appearance as a general modifier (though personally I'd make it clear that it's not just about attractiveness or intimidation, but can also include anything that makes someone automatically be perceived as special. Johnny Depp isn't particularly handsome but his celebrity makes people swoon, a barbarian in a suit might be perceived as refined, and speaking with particular accent might make people think highly of you due to mental associations).
 
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So I'm rereading one piece, and it'd make a really great exalted game. The marines work really well as the Realm, Luffy is clearly a young Solar, and Blackbeard is Isidoros infernal, etc. Honestly, describing exalted as Conan meets One Piece is a pretty good summary.

The three admirals are even elemental themed!
 
rogthnor said:
So I'm rereading one piece, and it'd make a really great exalted game. The marines work really well as the Realm, Luffy is clearly a young Solar, and Blackbeard is Isidoros infernal, etc. Honestly, describing exalted as Conan meets One Piece is a pretty good summary.

The three admirals are even elemental themed!
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Nah, Luffy isn't a Solar.

Zoro is a Solar. Melee charms, Exalted healing, driven to chase some impossible ideal out of loyalty to a fallen friend from his backstory... hell, he even gets a totemic anima that scares the shit out of people at times. Textbook Dawn caste.
 
Prent said:
What would you say Luffy is then?
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Luffy... doesn't really map very well to an Exalted archetype, honestly? Which isn't all that surprising, considering how different the two settings and genres are.

If I had to peg him into a specific analogue... Luffy is a Wyld Mutant. He gained strange body-warping powers through eating something he really shouldn't have, and is now utterly committed to following his overall dream of travelling the world and becoming Pirate King. That is his ongoing narrative, his role, and he is at this point utterly incapable of abandoning it... or even accepting a shortcut to the final 'goal', as was offered to him by Rayleigh.

Think of Mist, the Eternal Revolutionary from 3e if you need an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about.
 
Prent said:
What would you say Luffy is then?
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From what I know of One Piece, he's not an Exalt (except, maybe, an Exigent); he has 1 power (he's rubber) and everything he does relies on it.
The closest fit would be a spirit/spirit-blooded or a martial artist.

edit: Or a Wyld mutant, yeah. That's a better fit.
 
azoicennead said:
From what I know of One Piece, he's not an Exalt (except, maybe, an Exigent); he has 1 power (he's rubber) and everything he does relies on it.
The closest fit would be a spirit/spirit-blooded or a martial artist.

edit: Or a Wyld mutant, yeah. That's a better fit.
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He's also got Haki stuff.
AKA able to sense threats or 'hear' things about certain objects, or make himself stronger and tougher, together with being able to interact with intangible stuff.
And an ability to basically nosell extras.
 
azoicennead said:
From what I know of One Piece, he's not an Exalt (except, maybe, an Exigent); he has 1 power (he's rubber) and everything he does relies on it.
The closest fit would be a spirit/spirit-blooded or a martial artist.

edit: Or a Wyld mutant, yeah. That's a better fit.
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The absurd range of effects he gets out of that power make that kind of questionable. It's "One power" in the same sense that lightsabers, sword lasers, swording mountains apart, and blocking the death star with a spork are one power (Solar Melee).

Edit: Plus Haki. And general One Piece human+ badassery.
 
azoicennead said:
From what I know of One Piece, he's not an Exalt (except, maybe, an Exigent); he has 1 power (he's rubber) and everything he does relies on it.
The closest fit would be a spirit/spirit-blooded or a martial artist.
edit: Or a Wyld mutant, yeah. That's a better fit.
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Krain said:
He's also got Haki stuff.
AKA able to sense threats or 'hear' things about certain objects, or make himself stronger and tougher, together with being able to interact with intangible stuff.
And an ability to basically nosell extras.
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He has one power, that he based a Martial Art Style on, and then learned another Style to complement it.
The "hearing the voice of the world" thing is a plot macggufin more than a power.
 
I'd argue that even if his powers don't quite match up with a Solar exalt, he still fulfills the same narrative role. After all, the Realm having to deal with a golden age of piracy caused by the return of the solar Exalts is a really good Exalted game, you just have to cuddle with some of the details.


Make creation a mostly water world dotted with islands so that piracy becomes the default state of anyone who wants to change the world. Upgrade the Realm's infrastructure, so that the admirals can be decked out in awesome gear, and be a credible threat to even established solars, though they still fall behind at higher levels. Lower the realms ability to project force, so that while the realm is stronger, they still can't catch all the solars before they start causing trouble.

As an aside, Luffy in this would be a brawl specced solar with a Wyld mutation which turned his body to rubber, he then started adapting/inventing charms to take advantage of this fact.

Off the cuff, the Yonko would be a one armed solar, a sidereal sorceror who went rogue, a powerful lunar, and an essence 10 dragonblood with an Artifact from when the solars ruled
 
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rogthnor said:
I'd argue that even if his powers don't quite match up with a Solar exalt, he still fulfills the same narrative role. After all, the Realm having to deal with a golden age of piracy caused by the return of the solar Exalts is a really good Exalted game, you just have to cuddle with some of the details.


Make creation a mostly water world dotted with islands so that piracy becomes the default state of anyone who wants to change the world. Upgrade the Realm's infrastructure, so that the admirals can be decked out in awesome gear, and be a credible threat to even established solars, though they still fall behind at higher levels. Lower the realms ability to project force, so that while the realm is stronger, they still can't catch all the solars before they start causing trouble.

As an aside, Luffy in this would be a brawl specced solar with a Wyld mutation which turned his body to rubber, he then started adapting/inventing charms to take advantage of this fact.

Off the cuff, the Yonko would be a one armed solar, a sidereal sorceror who went rogue, a powerful lunar, and an essence 10 dragonblood with an Artifact from when the solars ruled
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I'd argue if you want to portray the Realm like the World Government/Marines in One Piece, all you really have to do is consider the 'averge marine' with the ranked people. The ranked individuals like the Commanders/Vice Admirals/Admirals are all obviously Dragonblooded or people with awakened Essence (the Admirals are individuals with freakishly strong Breeding hence why they are considered to be the most powerful force for the realm/World Government. Compare named individual with all these skills in comparison to the normal marine with a rifle whose bullets bounce off the skin of empowered people (who obviously took some charms to improve their suitability).

You would probably need to up the number of Admirals to 5 though, one for each of the Dragonblooded caste. Though that could kind of fit, one Admiral overseeing East Blue / West Blue / North Blue / South Blue / The Grandline/Blessed Isle.
 
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