But which one is less wordy and more beginner friendly
The 2e core book is the most logically organized one and gives the easiest introduction to the setting.

The 3e core is much more poorly organized and harder to get a feel for, as well as having many more subtle gameplay problems, but the combat system in 3e works overall much better than the one in 2e, once you understand it and make a few house rules to fix the stuff that's confusing or missing in it.
 
For Theion to Malfeas specifically, they knew exactly what Malfeas was going to be, and the only way to make him into a suitable prison was to do that. For the others they mutilated after the Surrender, i have no idea.

Are you sure that there was no other way to make him into a prison?

I don't remember reading that.

Anyway, the Exalted may well have been unnecessarily brutal with their defeated enemies. That tends to happen, after a long-fought and bitter war. And I think they might've just killed them all, if not for Gaia calling for mercy.

But if I understand correctly the soul-executions were a part of the Surrender Oaths that made the Primordials into prisoners who wouldn't be able to come back, kill the Exalted and the gods, and reclaim their dominion over everything.
 
Come to think of it, why did they do that?

I know I know, imprisoning them and all, but why the good things?
Well, there's two options.

First one is that the Exalted were still figuring out what their powers actually were during the Incarnate Rebellion, because the things had just been assembled and the whole "fighting the Creators of All" thing tended to chew through even Solars like a North Dakotan woodchipper processing Steve Buscemi's remains. They were just sort of blindly flailing at the Primordials, didn't really know how the loss of souls affected their enemies, and then all of a sudden that easy-to-kill 3CD's demise just turned its greater self into Hatefuckules the Smasher of Skulls, oh bother.

That's the charitable option.

Alternatively, the Exalted Host and their divine masters allowed their baser natures to rule them once the war started turning in their favor, and so their rebellion devolved into a disgusting re-enactment of every hideous revenge fantasy they'd ever had about the former rulers of Creation. Adorjan was probably an honest mistake, but the slaughter of Ruvelia, the execution of the White Ram, the rejection of SWLIHN's offer of unquestioning servitude, the mutilation of Malfeas? It was all just a group of managerial AIs and sloppily-uplifted cavemen indulging their hateboner to the fullest possible extent, with no regard for consequence. They could have carefully pruned the Yozis' souls into something more-or-less benevolent, but they didn't want to, because the Exalted Host wanted to see the hate in their fallen foes' eyes while forcing them to take out their laundry.

The truth, as in many things, probably lies somewhere between these two extremes.
 
Alternatively, the Exalted Host and their divine masters allowed their baser natures to rule them once the war started turning in their favor, and so their rebellion devolved into a disgusting re-enactment of every hideous revenge fantasy they'd ever had about the former rulers of Creation. Adorjan was probably an honest mistake, but the slaughter of Ruvelia, the execution of the White Ram, the rejection of SWLIHN's offer of unquestioning servitude, the mutilation of Malfeas? It was all just a group of managerial AIs and sloppily-uplifted cavemen indulging their hateboner to the fullest possible extent, with no regard for consequence. They could have carefully pruned the Yozis' souls into something more-or-less benevolent, but they didn't want to, because the Exalted Host wanted to see the hate in their fallen foes' eyes while forcing them to take out their laundry.
Eh.

It's kind of weird to cast "an alpha strike on one of the scariest and most combat-capable of our enemies, taking it out of the war for the foreseeable future" as "an honest mistake". Yes, slaying Adrian's fetich drove her mad and created Adorjan. So fucking what? Adrian was a giant monster made out of fire and knives who rampaged at the edge of the world and moved inwards whenever she got bored with killing faeries. Killing her fetich removed her from the board in a war that was pretty hard-fought even without her.

Yes, the Exalted Host killed the White Ram – because, again, we're talking about the literal lynchpin of one of their enemies. You're casting the assassination of enemy general (one who, it should be noted, apparently gave the Primordials the ability to see anything they liked, anywhere) as an "execution" instead of an act of war. That this drove the All-Seeing Eye into a coma is, frankly, a bonus from a military perspective.

Ruvelia was a defeated enemy general. She was executed to ensure she couldn't act against the victors, and moreover to reshape Theion into a prison which could hold his siblings. The alternative would have been executing them all – which might well have been kinder, but they owed Gaia the favour. Note that "hold demons to servitude" wasn't even something the Exalted Host could do, initially – it took Mara's offer of sorcery to give them that power.

And seriously, I can't parse rejecting She Who Lives in Her Name as anything but an act of pure "I don't want to be a robot" pragmatism, with a dash of "defectors gonna defect".

There's this trend in the fandom to cast the Primordial casualties of the war as perfect little snowflakes who were mutilated for no raisin by the mean ol' Exalted Host, and while Malfeas' existence and subsequent exploitation was absolutely a warcrime by our standards, trying to turn the Primordial War into some kind of inverse black and white scenario whereby Cecelyne was genuinely interested in fairness and the rule of law before the scheming Incarnae beat her up and stole her gavel is just... flat. I'm wondering where the idea that Ruvelia represented "all that was good in Malfeas" comes from, for example.
 
There's this trend in the fandom to cast the Primordial casualties of the war as perfect little snowflakes who were mutilated for no raisin by the mean ol' Exalted Host, and while Malfeas' existence and subsequent exploitation was absolutely a warcrime by our standards, trying to turn the Primordial War into some kind of inverse black and white scenario whereby Cecelyne was genuinely interested in fairness and the rule of law before the scheming Incarnae beat her up and stole her gavel is just... flat. I'm wondering where the idea that Ruvelia represented "all that was good in Malfeas" comes from, for example.

Oh, no doubt she was interested in fairness and the rule of law and her idealised concept of a perfect system of law.

And that's why it was equally illegal for kings and tramps to sleep under bridges and attempt to beg on the streets, and those laws were enforced without fear or favour. Because she had decided that vagrancy and public begging was unfitting and so made them illegal, and enforced those laws without prejudice. The fact that very few kings have ever engaged in those activities [1] was none of her concern compared to her perfect law.


The Ruvelia thing doesn't come from me, though! I depict her as the bit of Theion who was the visionary and idealist, the bit that allowed him to go "We Will Invent Linear Time And Render The Wyld Cosmically Meaningless. This Is My Vision And I Will See It Through". Ligier had the noblesse oblige and the princely behaviour to underlings as long as they respected him - Ruvelia broke you if you got in the way of her vision with the burning white certainty of the fanatic. Ligier was the prince who made things - Ruvelia was the empress who dreamed up ideas [2].

So of course the Exalted got rid of her over Ligier. Because if they hadn't, the alt-Malfeas that would have formed would have been unchained by Ligier's weightier matters, and would be a pure visionary, someone who would have been far, far more of a threat to Creation - even chained as she was. Ligier has his pride. Ligier responds favourably if treated as a prince. Ligier can be coaxed and played and bribed. Ruvelia would not have compromised, would not have been dissuaded, and until the end of days would have burned ice cold with monofocussed revenge on all of existence for lost Ligier.

[1] Well, okay, apart from my Oramus, who is a crazy old jaded hobo who wanders around realms of existence. But Oramus didn't pay any attention to her laws, so she tended to just attach "unless fucking Oramus or the bloody Ebon Dragon does it" to any law because one just ignored them and the other deliberately rebelled against her laws.

[2] And this is pertinent because Lilunu is to quite a considerable extent Ligier's attempt to make a replacement Ruvelia - but she's crippled and flawed, both by her nature but also by the chains that prevent her from fully expressing the visionary nature that Ligier did imbue her with.
 
There's really no way to know what was possible. Maybe by executing Ligier instead, they could've made Theion into a different sort of prison.

But I would argue that, no matter how the imprisonment of the Primordials was handled, it would always have made the Primordials nastier. Because thematically, it'd be really weird for being cast down and locked away to make someone nicer. Having your heart and soul cut out in battle shouldn't be an ennobling experience either.

We can set up the magic physics however we want, and I really think we should set it up in ways that make narrative sense. You shouldn't be able to stab someone into friendliness - making the Yozis friendlier, if possible at all, ought to involve talking to them and finding common ground with them.
 
[1] Well, okay, apart from my Oramus, who is a crazy old jaded hobo who wanders around realms of existence. But Oramus didn't pay any attention to her laws, so she tended to just attach "unless fucking Oramus or the bloody Ebon Dragon does it" to any law because one just ignored them and the other deliberately rebelled against her laws.

lol iudivicasse x sima otp :V

lol
 
If it was up to me, any attempt to make a Primordial a better being by "pruning" its soul hierarchy would...

Well, it would work, in the sense that your objective might be achieved and the Primordial would hurt less people.

But it would "work" in the same sense that they "cure" the Anne Frank patient in that episode of American Horror Story: Asylum.
 
Wait.

Replace 'blast into' with 'kill fetich soul to do lobotomy'

Playing fetich roulette is never a good idea. Sometimes it is the least bad idea, but still, the nature of a reformed Primordial is not predictable and there is a good chance that they may be specifically set up to fuck their killer over.

After all, of the known fetich deaths, one of them produced Sacheravell. No one wants another Primordial like that that's an existential threat to the concept of free will.
 
theologist: "yes, and?"
There are plenty of theologians who say that free will is a thing. It's one of the standard responses to the Problem of Evil, after all. (And one that speaks rather better of the Most High than "God decreed at Creation who would be saved and who would be damned" does.)
 
There are plenty of theologians who say that free will is a thing. It's one of the standard responses to the Problem of Evil, after all. (And one that speaks rather better of the Most High than "God decreed at Creation who would be saved and who would be damned" does.)

M8.

My dad is a theologist. :V

okay thats actually a lie, my dad is a University teacher in computer science but he took an almost-complete education in theology when he studied back in the day. then he randomly decided that no! computers was his thing!

several years of studying theology

discarded because of a flight of fancy

i will never understand my dad

But more seriously, I mentioned theologists there for two reasons:
  1. Theologists often deal with questions relating to free will, and would therefore see no problems with something that casts a shadow of doubt over the concept, since everyone is asking that question anyways.
  2. Only having scientists respond would be more boring.
 
The 2e core book is the most logically organized one and gives the easiest introduction to the setting.

The 3e core is much more poorly organized and harder to get a feel for, as well as having many more subtle gameplay problems, but the combat system in 3e works overall much better than the one in 2e, once you understand it and make a few house rules to fix the stuff that's confusing or missing in it.

I can't help but feel the argument that 3E is more subtle gameplay problems (especially when compared to 2E) is all that correct, given that 2E's entire characterization from beginning to end was characterized by gameplay problems that ran the gamut from glaringly obvious to extremely annoying and needlessly confusing. The latter of which included, well, ticks, yard-based-movement, social combat, and so on. It was a very frustrating system, one whose issues were an inevitability unless you already had a set of houserules in place to fix it. Have you played 2E in the past? Because that shit is a trip man.

I mean for all the complaining about Natural Language, I can fully comprehend how Poison works in 3E without ever comprehending it in 2E, even after running Exalted for years.

(And then I wept bitter tears of acid when one of my players made an Infernal with the Kimbery charmset)
 
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The real problem with Sachavarell, as I understand it, is that if he's awake then he makes everybody in Creation unstoppably aware that they have no free will. As in, his being awake extends his precognition to everybody in Creation, so that not only are you Fated to trip down a flight of stairs in ten minutes, break your neck and die, but now you know it's going to happen, and that you can't do anything about it because you aren't Fated to.
I can't help but feel the argument that 3E is more subtle gameplay problems (especially when compared to 2E) is all that correct,
I think Roadie just meant that 3e has many subtle gameplay problems in addition to being "poorly organized and harder to get a feel for."
 
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