Magnus was an adjective in Latin and is a name in English. I don't think it's ever been used as a generic noun like that.

Which is very true, though I still doubt that they would name the Charms directly after Hatewheel's player character.


Though, I would absolutely not be surprised to find out that it actually is named after his player character.
 
Though, I would absolutely not be surprised to find out that it actually is named after his player character.
This is not anything new for any of them honestly.

Might I remind everyone that Holden explicitly replaced enormous chunks of Alchemicals 2e with Charms his own campaign had brewed up in the interim, regardless of their balance compared to the other splats, and excluded more notable NPCs out of the book simply so that he could toss in writeups for the main characters of his Locust Crusade fanfiction, Voice of Authority and Eternally Vigilant Bell, both of whom only tenuously match the established naming schemes for Champions because he started writing that thing almost the same week the 1e book came out, and this is all part of why he considers himself such an expert on them above all others.

There's a pretty good argument to be made that some of the more outlandish and egregious mechanics stuff that came out of Ink Monkeys in relatively short time-frames came directly off their tables with no editing or wide-playtesting as well, because "it worked for them" and therefore obviously had no possible flaws when distributed to the general public.
 
This is not anything new for any of them honestly.

Might I remind everyone that Holden explicitly replaced enormous chunks of Alchemicals 2e with Charms his own campaign had brewed up in the interim, regardless of their balance compared to the other splats, and excluded more notable NPCs out of the book simply so that he could toss in writeups for the main characters of his Locust Crusade fanfiction, Voice of Authority and Eternally Vigilant Bell, both of whom only tenuously match the established naming schemes for Champions because he started writing that thing almost the same week the 1e book came out, and this is all part of why he considers himself such an expert on them above all others.

There's a pretty good argument to be made that some of the more outlandish and egregious mechanics stuff that came out of Ink Monkeys in relatively short time-frames came directly off their tables with no editing or wide-playtesting as well, because "it worked for them" and therefore obviously had no possible flaws when distributed to the general public.
If that's even remotely true, then...

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

How do you even?

Sure, it's being funded by Kickstarter, but it's still a professional product, not some informal kludge of homebrew and house rules recorded on old note paper in your highschool Trapper-Keeper. If your shit is broken, then the customers won't be able to phone you up and get a quick breakdown of how it works. You cannot use the same standards that you would use for introducing a newbie member of your gaming group to the campaign rules!

Oh dear fucking Autobot what is even.
 
Oh dear fucking Autobot what is even.
Holden self-justified it out by having also tangentially name-dropped Elegant Nova of Progression from Keychain of Creation into the text, so really, these were all just sly appeals to the fandom, like those index-gags, right?

It got a pass merely because not many people actually read both Alchies books and knew enough on Holden's background to notice something was up, and didn't happen to play any 2e Alchie long enough to notice the rules included explicit combat-shattering builds at Ess4, like taking Speed 3 ~10 autosux pool flurries as a 3m innate action and scenelong unbreakable 50L/B Hardness.
 
I'm fine with Holden including his fanfic characters, actually. Making up NPCs is part of his job, and that's one way to do it.

And while bad mechanics are a problem, bad mechanics that come from your table are no worse than bad mechanics that come from anywhere else.
 
so the discussion of PCs from Mørke and Holden's tables got me wondering, did the Ink Monkeys ever put out any fanfiction or actual plays or anything? Any of them that are good reads?

Relatedly, do you guys know any APs or Quests or Fanfictions or whatever that you personally think are very entertaining/do a good job of portraying the setting?

I'm trying to collect more stuff to read that involves the practice of Exalted by players. Hoping to up my storytelling game with that stuff.
 
I'm fine with Holden including his fanfic characters, actually. Making up NPCs is part of his job, and that's one way to do it.

And while bad mechanics are a problem, bad mechanics that come from your table are no worse than bad mechanics that come from anywhere else.
Look I know Objective Judgement is bandied around here as some kind of virtue, but you can't separate these things away from their context by saying "this stuff is just what happens."

The issue I am taking with Holden's NPCs is not that that they are from a fanfic, but that they are so bluntly and unmistakably His, presented as though ripped directly from the story with no plot-hooks, setting-goals or even reasons to interact with the player characters except to Exist on the page. They are so blatantly There and shoved in your face alongside standbys like Excessively Righteous Blossom to grant them unspoken precedence by association, that it only comes across as a nerdy form of marking territory. "I wrote this book, therefore it is mine and I will include whatever I like in it, fuck you." This, combined with his absolute inability to couch a pop culture reference for shit, instead including the Exact Thing regardless of blending with the setting or system, make me take a dim view on the idea that his writing is no different than anyone else's work, simply because he's also getting paid for it.

Second note of context, Alchemicals 2e came out after Dreams of the First Age, when Holden and others like him had started to build what would become a cottage industry of shitting on other authors producing less mechanically-sound work. The fact he then delivered a ridiculous, self-indulgent book of dumb and broken shit mined primarily from his own group with no mind paid to how it literally included an Attrition Death-Flurry build and an unstoppable Mote Reactor, despite those things having been established as explicit Here Be Dragons rules-quagmires even in the heady days of 2009, is so far beyond "just more bad charms" that it takes effort to see anything besides willful ignorance or straight-up not giving a shit and including it because "I did this, this is my book now."

And as someone with a vested interest in Alchemicals, their mechanics, campaign potential and setting, I'm not inclined to look favorably on someone going well out of their way like this to plant a flag and declare themselves the man who runs Barter Town.
 
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And as someone with a vested interest in Alchemicals, their mechanics, campaign potential and setting, I'm not inclined to look favorably on someone going well out of their way like this to plant a flag and declare themselves the man who runs Barter Town.
That's kind of what it boils down to, isn't it. It's management by informal consensus and force of personality, with no means of resolving conflicts of vision beyond "I can out-social you, so shut up."

The more I hear about this little posse, the more they sound like a gaggle of fans - some good, some bad, but ultimately ordinary fuckers like the rest of us - who have been allowed to degenerate into this bizarro nerd junta through years of echo-chambering and a fundamental failure to change how they handle things and how they produce content to account for the fact that they're no longer kitbashing together homebrew that appeals to their personal circle of players.

Like - if I was going to try and make one of my D&D campaigns into actual, grownup, sold-for-money content, I would sit down and seriously consider how to handle that, because I recognize that the way I run a game for my friends is not the way that other people would run theirs. I tend to improvise things and go off-the-cuff a lot, because being able to have a storyline come forth from the ether (or spontaneously combust) based on one crazy lone wolf decision or whacko roll of the dice is something that appeals to my players and that I have the personal skills and willingness to give them.

That does not mean it's okay for me to write a module that's basically just a half-built skeleton, include a bunch of NPCs & antagonists with half their stat blocks missing, and then write some overly-elaborate and flowery version of "just make shit up, okay?" to guide the theoretical customer the rest of the way. Because that is an awful garbage-person thing to do when you're selling something for real money, and I at least try to avoid being an awful garbage-person.

When a spastic madman whose greatest claim to fame is "got like 50 likes that one time" has better awareness of how their personal gaming style doesn't mesh with professional game production than a (by all accounts) well-established and experienced circle of content creators, I don't even know what is wrong.
 
so the discussion of PCs from Mørke and Holden's tables got me wondering, did the Ink Monkeys ever put out any fanfiction or actual plays or anything? Any of them that are good reads?

Relatedly, do you guys know any APs or Quests or Fanfictions or whatever that you personally think are very entertaining/do a good job of portraying the setting?

I'm trying to collect more stuff to read that involves the practice of Exalted by players. Hoping to up my storytelling game with that stuff.
It is first edition and old, and not really 100% serious but something that always gave me a laugh was that one [Actual Play] Gem: Edge of Destruction
 
What was the original system out of curiosity?

Dif has a really lovely post on this:

That is because Holden did not, and does not understand Infrastructure or issues of Scale, which are the primary keystone to understanding the Alchemical Exalted. It is his "there is no Bureaucracy system" of 2e, and you would be well-advised to take anything he says about the subject with a grain of salt, because this is the same man who ALSO broke the "you cannot be Exalted Twice" rule within mere pages of being handed the reins to the Autobots book even before that awful short fiction. It is fanwankery of the highest order, even beyond the part were he then went on to spin up his own version of "someone steals the secrets to Exaltation" bullshit plots to create backstory for both the Exigents and the Getimens of Ex3.

Like, lets take a deep, critical look behind why Demiurge exists: It is an attempt to justify out why a single Solar cannot simply stealth inside Autochthonia, steal the secret of Alchemical Exaltation from all five of the Sodalities under the heaviest guard and secrecy they are capable of as a society, and duplicate it themselves elsewhere. Okay fine, fair enough, assuming good faith here Holden was trying to treat Exaltation as a setting-meaningful subject, and one which should remain meaningful. But in the event you even have the full thaumaturgical recipe at your disposal, what are the 1e requirements to make an Alchemical in the first place?

- One, a suitably Exaltation-worthy soul and a soulgem to contain it. Someone with a long and thorough history of generations-spanning heroic deeds which will resonate with the Caste it is being used to energize. It must explicitly be that of a mortal human being, because Celestial Exalted gain their power through one-off feats of world-shaking importance, inherently incompatible with the process.
- Second, rare and valuable clays, waxes and various other materials culled from the Far Reaches of Autochthon's own body, which even the Eight nations themselves with all their sprawling economies have difficulty keeping in ready supply to meet the demand. That is before you factor in the Magical Materials costs numbering in the multiple 5 Resource dot purchase ranges.
- Third, you need a Vats complex for the assembly of these materials, which requires not only a Manse-equivalent structure rated as 4+ dots, yet another 5 dots of Resources to build it, but also a staff of highly skilled thaumaturge-technicians trained for maintaining and operating it, using regular infusions of 4-5 dot Resource purchases with every use of the complex, not just those intended to install Charms and upgrade Essence scores.
- Fourth, actual Charms this time, which are system-wise treated as interchangeable with Artifacts of a rating equal to the Essence minimum listed. So those require exotic materials and assembly as well, starting with a minimum 8 dots worth even for a single Alchemical with what could be seen as "chargen" competency.
- Fifth and finally, you need access to Autochthon himself, and the thought-lightning cables from his Godhead to weld the soulgem and body together as one. Its explicitly noted that Alchemicals flatly cannot be constructed within Creation without the Great Maker's presence there, which means that either "Exaltation" as a concept is deeply connected to Autochthon's domain of power similarly to that of Malfeas and vitriol acids, or it requires directly tapping into his power as a component of the process beyond the "spark of life."

That is by no means an easy list of things to accomplish, and this whole production delivers you only One Exalt, not even an entire batch of them. This is the refined process of almost five thousand years of advanced industrial processes, literally twice as long as modern civilization, using extremely high-end material costs and a setting-locked access requirement. We're looking at well beyond "I have CNNT, Words-As-Workshop and Wyld-Shaping Technique, I think I can make this happen."

But lets even set all that aside, and assume our hypothetical Craftmaster Ultrathief Solar somehow has all of these things by hook or by crook, by developing some kind of means to not only subvert one of the existing Vats inside Autobot to her will and convey a sizable enough amount of Wyld-shaped materials in there with her, to kickstart assembling her own independant Alchemical army literally within the guts of the primordial himself. With the sheer SCALE of the planning, logistics and infrastructure being put to work here, that Solar could be making literally any other thing she conceivably wants and it would be similarly setting-redefining for the costs and time she has been investing into it, not to mention the ST permission for it to actually come to pass to begin with.

There isn't anything particularly special about setting "rules" when you hit that point of sweeping permissiveness and readily-available means to accomplish goals. It could have been a fully-functional Directional Titan, or a new Five-Metal Shrike, or even carving out a Realm Defense Grid of her own. It could BE another, entirely brand new Exalt-type for that matter, one unconnected to Auotchthon at all, given how this all is naturally dependent on the Seal being broken from the outset to permit the knowledge of it being Possible.

At the point where "making an Alchemical Exalt" is a valid approach to a problem, you are well beyond the average scope of the common campaign and the structures of the setting to maintain its internal consistency anyway. So looking at that considerable list and saying "that doesn't sound like enough shitwork to dissuade anyone, lets add another complication to the mixture, which takes the most unique and defining aspect of this Exalt-type and actively undermines its value into an aesthetics footnote mincing over whose hands hold the tools," shows a Shocking lack of awareness or insight towards the material.

And then he goes and makes Independent/Exalt-created Exalts a thing anyway. Guess it just sucks to be mortals with literally any amount of time or resources, doesn't it?
 
This is similar to what I've been working on, yeah. Let me actually put that down...

A (Tentative) System For Quests


Sometimes, the outcome of an action may be in doubt. In such a case, the roll is assigned a Difficulty (being a number), and the Traits of the character are factored into a pool of d6s; every result of 4 or above is a "success." If the number of success equals or surpasses the difficulty, the action is successful.

(I totally stole stuff from @MJ12 Commando's Cowls and @EarthScorpion's From This Damned City)

Traits

The two basic traits forming a pool are Skills and Aspects. There are five Skills, which represent a character's competency at a broad array of interconnected abilities; there are an arbitrary number of possible Aspects, which represent a character's personal background and specialties.

Skills are rated from 1 to 5, where 1 represents lack of training or talent and 5 represents the superhuman capabilities of powerful beings. Skills have overlap by design, as they represent related competency. Physical resilience is the domain of both the Warrior and the Prophet, so that a fearless berserker need not "invest in" both Dawn and Zenith.

Dawn is the Warrior's skill. It is used in all forms of personal combat both armed and unarmed, as well as to lead armies, devise tactics, resist injury, and be aware of one's surroundings and impending danger.
Zenith is the Prophet's skill. It is used to persuade, inspire, seduce or intimidate, to hold fast to one's convictions, as well as to demonstrate general fitness, to survive in the wilderness and resist wounds and deprivation. It also covers astrology, theology, and prophetic knowledge.
Twilight is the Sage's skill. It is used to represent knowledge both mundane and occult, from human anatomy to the courtship of spirits, as well as to investigate and uncover new knowledge, teach and manage students or organizations.
Night is the Scoundrel's skill. It is used to evade notice, infilitrate places, steal and assassinate. It also aids in perception and investigation, in pretending to be someone one is not, and in demonstrating speed, strength and agility, avoiding harm and evading combat.
Eclipse is the Emissary's skill. It is used in navigating etiquette and social expectations at all ranks of society, in travelling by sea or steed, in knowing the ways of spirits, in trading, negotiating and persuading by writ or word - and, at times, in disguise, subterfuge and espionage.

Aspects are short descriptors of a character's background or special skills. Having an applicable Aspect adds +2 to a roll, and each further Aspect which could contribute to this action adds a further +1. Sample Aspects might be "Realm Legionnaire," "Veteran of the Battle of Futile Blood," and "Fur Trader," all of which may be found in a mortal soldier who defected from the Legions after one of their most crushing defeat and now finds a living in the North.

When a roll is made, it is defined as either "High" or "Low." A low roll grants unambiguous success if its difficulty is met, whereas a High roll will leave a character suffering from some kind of stress or damaging consequences even in the event of success. For instance, most fights would be High rolls for a mortal; even if she succeeds in defeating an opponent of similar skill, she may be wounded, exhausted, or have broken her spear in the fighting. Such damage does not inflict penalties on the character's rolls; rather it impacts their options in later votes, and may turn a Low roll into a High one, until valued things are lost - whether one's arm or one's lover.

An Exalted character has Excellency. When failing a roll in a domain covered by her Aspects, or when succeeding at a High roll, she automatically spends one Excellency and downgrades any negative consequences. Rather than being slain in battle, she escapes alive but wounded. Rather than owing a favor to a courtier in exchange for a service rendered, she convinces him to help without strings attached. A character starts with 5 Excellencies, and regains spent Excellency with a full night's sleep.

Charms are unique powers of the Exalted. As a rule, they do not modify a dice pool; rather they allow new actions that would otherwise not be possible or applicable, generally offering new (usually better) voting options to deal with any given situation.

***

Any thoughts? I feel it's workable but I'm not quite satisfied by it; it has essentially no place for the "incrementally become better at X" abilities that allow Exalts to have a spectrum between "defeat ten men" and "defeat a thousand."
First some questions.

1. What dice do you use when rolling for a challenge? and how do you decide the target value. This matters as a +1 in one system may be a big boost in others it might be worth nothing.
2. What do the Skills do? You don't actually clarify the mechanical effect in your writeup.

Now for some comments on the different mechanics listed.

I really don't like the excellency mechanic. It basically replaces solar excellence with a Fate Point mechanic from other systems. All it does is let you recover from Failure or succeed at something you already succeeded at with less consequences. That doesn't seem exalted to me. Exalts are awesome and have great accomplishments they don't just lose more gracefully. Instead maybe allow players to spend excellency on some very impressive buff to the dice roll as an additional option. It should have a fuck you I win feel to it.

Skills seems to be a nice way of simplifying the system but I can't be sure without knowing what they do mechanically for rolls. That said you should probably make the skills listed Solar only with each splat having their own set that limits them in different ways as well as possibly having a reduced mechanical effect proportional to their power compared to Solars. Mortals must be happy with their aspects.

Charms. It is hard to say without seeing what your charmsets would look like but focusing on ones that let you do new actions is a good move. Each one should feel like a superpower. However by doing that you remove the way for players to get beyond human competence so I think that should be folded into either excellency or the skills system.
 
All it does is let you recover from Failure or succeed at something you already succeeded at with less consequences. That doesn't seem exalted to me. Exalts are awesome and have great accomplishments they don't just lose more gracefully. Instead maybe allow players to spend excellency on some very impressive buff to the dice roll as an additional option. It should have a fuck you I win feel to it.

Actually i find the whole thing quite elegant; It allows you to do such things like leading fifty men against a thousand and winning without losing a single soldier, or operate someone in the middle of nowhere with just a knife without causing serious secondary effects.

And that's only the Excellency anyway, true supernatural power comes from charms.
1. What dice do you use when rolling for a challenge? and how do you decide the target value. This matters as a +1 in one system may be a big boost in others it might be worth nothing.

The Traits of the character are factored into a pool of d6s; every result of 4 or above is a "success." If the number of success equals or surpasses the difficulty, the action is successful.

2. What do the Skills do? You don't actually clarify the mechanical effect in your writeup.

You have a dice pool equal to your skill rating+applicable aspects.
 
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Look I know Objective Judgement is bandied around here as some kind of virtue, but you can't separate these things away from their context by saying "this stuff is just what happens."

The issue I am taking with Holden's NPCs is not that that they are from a fanfic, but that they are so bluntly and unmistakably His, presented as though ripped directly from the story with no plot-hooks, setting-goals or even reasons to interact with the player characters except to Exist on the page. They are so blatantly There and shoved in your face alongside standbys like Excessively Righteous Blossom to grant them unspoken precedence by association, that it only comes across as a nerdy form of marking territory. "I wrote this book, therefore it is mine and I will include whatever I like in it, fuck you." This, combined with his absolute inability to couch a pop culture reference for shit, instead including the Exact Thing regardless of blending with the setting or system, make me take a dim view on the idea that his writing is no different than anyone else's work, simply because he's also getting paid for it.

Second note of context, Alchemicals 2e came out after Dreams of the First Age, when Holden and others like him had started to build what would become a cottage industry of shitting on other authors producing less mechanically-sound work. The fact he then delivered a ridiculous, self-indulgent book of dumb and broken shit mined primarily from his own group with no mind paid to how it literally included an Attrition Death-Flurry build and an unstoppable Mote Reactor, despite those things having been established as explicit Here Be Dragons rules-quagmires even in the heady days of 2009, is so far beyond "just more bad charms" that it takes effort to see anything besides willful ignorance or straight-up not giving a shit and including it because "I did this, this is my book now."

And as someone with a vested interest in Alchemicals, their mechanics, campaign potential and setting, I'm not inclined to look favorably on someone going well out of their way like this to plant a flag and declare themselves the man who runs Barter Town.

This would be fair if MoEP: Alchemicals was a bad book, and those characters were bad characters. But it isn't and they're not.

Holden's habit of shitting on people whose writing he dislikes is pretty unpleasant, but it doesn't somehow make the books he worked on bad.

The more I hear about this little posse, the more they sound like a gaggle of fans - some good, some bad, but ultimately ordinary fuckers like the rest of us - who have been allowed to degenerate into this bizarro nerd junta through years of echo-chambering and a fundamental failure to change how they handle things and how they produce content to account for the fact that they're no longer kitbashing together homebrew that appeals to their personal circle of players.

Pretty much.

It worked okay for a while, though, and even today it's not too bad.

And this is why Ascended Fans are so rarely good for the franchise.

Eh. Say what you will about the People's Democratic Republic of Hamster-Wheel, it's better than what Chambers offered.
 
This would be fair if MoEP: Alchemicals was a bad book, and those characters were bad characters. But it isn't and they're not.

Ahahahahaha. Alchemicals 2e is terrible.
  • Demiurge, for reasons explained above
  • Poor articulation of setting goals and conceits: what do Alchemicals DO in Autochthonia? What do mortals do?
  • No storyteller support for non-Autochthonia plots. 90% of everything is 'Go to Creation, Solars can Save us!'
  • Terrible dice-adder charms. (Creator-Fugue Engines)
  • Poorly implemented solar-clones. (Templating is not a bad thing. They just did a bad job of templating).
  • The mechanically best combat and defensive suite in the game short of perfect defenses.
  • Absolutely ruinously powerful War charms. (Exacerbating existing 2e war systemic issues).
  • Voidtech
And that's just what I remember off the top of my head.
 
Ahahahahaha. Alchemicals 2e is terrible.
  • Demiurge, for reasons explained above
  • Poor articulation of setting goals and conceits: what do Alchemicals DO in Autochthonia? What do mortals do?
  • No storyteller support for non-Autochthonia plots. 90% of everything is 'Go to Creation, Solars can Save us!'
  • Terrible dice-adder charms. (Creator-Fugue Engines)
  • Poorly implemented solar-clones. (Templating is not a bad thing. They just did a bad job of templating).
  • The mechanically best combat and defensive suite in the game short of perfect defenses.
  • Absolutely ruinously powerful War charms. (Exacerbating existing 2e war systemic issues).
  • Voidtech
And that's just what I remember off the top of my head.
Didn't they rip beamklaves basically straight from 1e with no alteration to the mechanics?
 
I was about to start arguing the quality of Alchemicals. Then I stopped myself. Life's too short.

Instead, let me ask: Shyft, Dif, what is the deal with you two and Holden?

It's obviously not just that you think he writes badly. You hate him and he hates you. This has apparently been going on for years and years. Why?

I have my own issues with the guy, but I doubt yours are the same. And every time I read one of your posts about him, I feel like I'm glimpsing a small piece of a very long war. It's a bit off-putting.
 
This would be fair if MoEP: Alchemicals was a bad book, and those characters were bad characters. But it isn't and they're not.
You're right, they aren't bad characters, but totally nonexistent ones. Because they have no draw to encourage including them in a story, and no reason to even be there if you found one. There is no hook to a generic-ass pretty boy gremlin-hunter who will never interact with the players except an archetypal cut-out, and an equally bland "just a Jade caste" who is so middle-of-the-road that concepts zoom past her simply by dint of having visually-obvious Charms. They don't expand the range of Alchemical characterization, they don't tell anything new, add nothing to the book save inflating Holden's ego.

Now here is the part where I would recount all the ways that the Alchies 2e book is bad because the fluff got ruined and the Charms are ridiculous, but you'd dismiss that too easily as "he just wrote something you Dislike, which doesn't make it bad." Lemme fix that for you then:

Starting Alchemical with Dex 5 and Wits 5, Moonsilver Caste but doesn't matter because we're Favoring Dex and Wits anyway, one Charm spent on 4th Dex Aug. 6th Dex Aug for maxed Dex+Melee pool of 11, stacking the Specialty submod to a +3 for a total of 14. Dynamic Reaction Enhancement System for Speed -1 to any action. High Rate/Accuracy mundane weapon, lets assume paired Khatars for simplicity through Integrated Arsenal, dropping a Moonsilver submod on there, giving a combined +3 Accuracy which hands us 17d as an attack pool. Fill remaining slots with Magnetic Joint Bearings for -1 off multiple Action penalties each, for a grand total of -4 off the top.

Essence 3. Clockwork Perfection Nodes on Dex, attack pool is now optionally 9 autosuccesses. Transpuissant Dex Upgrade on that 3-die Specialty from 6th Aug, attack pool drops to 14d, but we get another +3 autosux from it for 10 autosux total, a good trade. Subsynaptic Accelerator and Cluster Action Hyperprocessor submods for Dynamic Reaction, making the Speed reduction -2 and across all actions in a flurry, not per-action. At this point, this character can kill anyone lacking a Perfect and below DV 6 with a Speed 3 flurry using mundane Rate and offsetting flurry penalties through Joint Bearings and assuring a hit through autosuccesses to make it hurt. But lets go a step beyond, because this still requires an Array even if most of those are 0m activations.

Essence 4. Metaconductive Circuitry submod off Clockwork Perfection, 5m 1w to add +4 Autosux to any attack made using autosux. Now those assured hits are now Killshots if I have literally anyother damage-adder available to me, possibly Piston-Driven Megaton Hammer because it will Triple my post-DV autosux for determining my damage using the Optimized Demolition Vibration submod to make those Khatars "unarmed." Thought As Action Node submod for Dynamic Reaction, now for +1m (total 4m) that Speed 3 flurry is innate-use, no need for an array anymore.

But I'm hemorrhaging a lot of motes this way, aren't I? Simple solution for Essence 4, Toroidal Shockwave Catalyst with the Holocaustic Fury Device submod can turn the entire battlefield into a raging bonfire for a full minute for 4m, and using the Essence Absorption Screen submod for Light-Etched Interceptor Barrier I get back +2m (4m spent to block, 6L from a typical bonfire hazard) every activation, which is per-turn.

This is not nearly as optimized as I could have made this, since I deliberately left-out stuff like exceptional/MM bonus stacking for Integrated Arsenal, but this is only ONE of the ways this book creates totally ridiculous monsters in 2e's framework, especially given how they were never properly errata'd, since by that point everyone had lost interest. How could you say a book which enables this shit is Good, either for itself or the health of the game, simply on the basis it is not terrible?
 
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I was about to start arguing the quality of Alchemicals. Then I stopped myself. Life's too short.

Instead, let me ask: Shyft, Dif, what is the deal with you two and Holden?

It's obviously not just that you think he writes badly. You hate him and he hates you. This has apparently been going on for years and years. Why?

I have my own issues with the guy, but I doubt yours are the same. And every time I read one of your posts about him, I feel like I'm glimpsing a small piece of a very long war. It's a bit off-putting.

Lesse... Basically, Holden has consistently and directly gone out of his way to deny legitimate criticism. I make no claims to being unbiased, but I have attempted in the past, back on the original WW forums and RPG.net, to engage with him in a manner that was supposed to be helpful.

A good example, which I sadly cannot prove because of the forum changeover, was back just before 2.5 errata. Everyone was talking about Lunars and what to do with them.

I posited something of a thought experiment: "Let's say I want to run a game set during the Great Contagion, where my players can do something about the Great Contagion as Lunars."

Holden said to me something like "Your players keel over and die." And refused to engage me further on the topic. (My memory is not at all perfect here).

But at the end of the day, my actual intended argument, was a separate of Charm Design space from Storyteller Design Space. Solars are explicitly intended and expected to Cure the Uncurable. They can treat individual cases of the Great Contagion at Essence 3. I'm cool with that.

However, Holden very clearly was of the mindset that Lunar players could not do anything about the Great Contagion. "You don't have the Charms, therefore you don't do anything, therefore don't run those games."

There was no room for 'Go quest to the well of Udr for a hypothetical counter-contagion' or 'explore the depths of the Labyrinth, tricking the Neverborn into ending their own plot'. No way for a Lunar articifer to fashion a cure, or a sorcerer.

Now, this gets into that muddy territory of setting conceits and 'At your Table' Exalted, but that was the kind of questions that were important at the time.

Similar criticisms were leveled against Demiurge back during Alchie 2e's release, and the questionable thematic statement of 'Solars can fix Void taint, but Alchemicals can't.' I personally don'thave a problem with Solars being able to. That's part of hteir Thing. I had a problem wiht Alchemicals not being given any narrative resource.

By resource I don't mean plot device, per se, or Charm (it makes perfect sense that Autochthon can't fix himself, but his Exalted can't do anything?)

Basically stuff like that.
 
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