Is that really it?

This seems a lot deeper than "he favours Solars too much and doesn't take criticism well".

I'm pretty sure you guys were already committed personal enemies by the time 2.5 was coming out. Is that really just because you dislike him inventing demiurges (etc) and he doesn't like you complaining?

If that's really all it is...maybe give it a rest. World's full of assholes. Making one of them your personal white whale isn't gonna do you any good.
 
Of course Autochthon's sickness can't be cured by Alchemicals, for the same reason Yozis can't be freed. His sickness looms over the entire setting of Autochthonia, being the Ultimate Problem, and if he can be cured within the context of an Autochthonia game then this plot will devour all plots by its stakes and scope. Preventing Alchemicals from fixing it opens up greater narrative space.

The issue here is allowing anyone to cure it at all, but if there was truly no hope then it would make Autochthonia even bleaker than it is. Restricing that possibility to Solars is a clumsy compromise, but better than either alternative.
 
Of course Autochthon's sickness can't be cured by Alchemicals, for the same reason Yozis can't be freed. His sickness looms over the entire setting of Autochthonia, being the Ultimate Problem, and if he can be cured within the context of an Autochthonia game then this plot will devour all plots by its stakes and scope. Preventing Alchemicals from fixing it opens up greater narrative space.

The issue here is allowing anyone to cure it at all, but if there was truly no hope then it would make Autochthonia even bleaker than it is. Restricing that possibility to Solars is a clumsy compromise, but better than either alternative.
That doesn't make sense. The comparable task isn't freeing the Yozis, its saving Creation from threat X. Curing Autocthon should be potentially doable in the same way that slaying the Neverborn or rebuilding some grand ward against the Wyld is doable: it's going to be the ambition behind a campaign, but actually doing it will undoubtably require a ton of other more minute-to-minute engaging stuff. Especially since Autocthon doesn't have much else in the way of things to really strive for, beyond maintaining the status quo in one respect or another, I'm not sure what your objection is.
 
Is that really it?

This seems a lot deeper than "he favours Solars too much and doesn't take criticism well".

I'm pretty sure you guys were already committed personal enemies by the time 2.5 was coming out. Is that really just because you dislike him inventing demiurges (etc) and he doesn't like you complaining?

If that's really all it is...maybe give it a rest. World's full of assholes. Making one of them your personal white whale isn't gonna do you any good.

As Dif pointed out with his analysis of Charms, Holden consistently included bad mechanical ideas and/or allowed bad mechanical ideas to go forward under his authority, without holding to professional standards of conduct or quality assurance. He is not a man I would want to give money.
 
His sickness looms over the entire setting of Autochthonia, being the Ultimate Problem, and if he can be cured within the context of an Autochthonia game then this plot will devour all plots by its stakes and scope. Preventing Alchemicals from fixing it opens up greater narrative space.
Only if by "greater narrative space" you mean "PC Alchemicals are forced to contract-out in order to solve the problem literally in their own backyard."

If that is your argument, then there is really no reason for Alchemicals to be playable, as their "narrative space" in that context relies primarily as being an accessory to the Real Heroes coming in and finishing up what they couldn't.
 
This would be fair if MoEP: Alchemicals was a bad book, and those characters were bad characters. But it isn't and they're not.

Can I add to the criticisms as someone who liked Alchemicals overall? Because I think that a lot of Shyft's points wrt Bad Design Space are reasonable-especially the Demiurge one and the one about the setting.

The biggest problem I have with Alchemicals is that oftentimes its premises conflict with the conclusions. You have this setting-a hardscrabble industrial socialist setting, an explicitly technological one where everyone has constant political and often martial disagreements. Wars are fought in tight quarters for access to resources, because resources are absolutely precious things. Cities are often incredibly hostile territory, controlled by actual death robots. And yet you have things like masses of untrained militia levies being a thing.

Oftentimes they have this place which is cool and alien-and then they don't really want to own the setting, and so they take a step back from the premises. You have a setting which can have all the trappings of cyberpunk-augmented, Enlightened mortals as Shadowrunners, working either as mercenaries outside of their caste as one of the few ways of gaining social mobility pre-mortem, would fit the setting they've created, but they back out of it for buff coats and crossbows. It's basically the trireme thing writ large-it seems that they want a gritty realistic setting over which the heroic powers of the Exalted are contrasted, but don't have the political science and economic backing to really write that.

Oh and it'd have fixed the War Charms issue because then Alchemical War would probably look entirely different and weird-it'd be entirely about augmenting tiny units on commando raids rather than leading armies as a champion.
 
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Of course Autochthon's sickness can't be cured by Alchemicals, for the same reason Yozis can't be freed. His sickness looms over the entire setting of Autochthonia, being the Ultimate Problem, and if he can be cured within the context of an Autochthonia game then this plot will devour all plots by its stakes and scope. Preventing Alchemicals from fixing it opens up greater narrative space.

The issue here is allowing anyone to cure it at all, but if there was truly no hope then it would make Autochthonia even bleaker than it is. Restricing that possibility to Solars is a clumsy compromise, but better than either alternative.
Except in the normal Game the Yozi aren't always there; you can run a game in creation with very little infernal presence. And even if you do use them, the Yozi being imprisoned doesn't really matter: you're not interacting with them, or if you are the fact that they're not free is good for you, not a negative. But as you say, in Autochthonia his sickness seems to loom over the setting. It's, well, it's the issue with Infernals and the Reclamation. Having your supposed win condition be impossible sucks, and at least with Infernals there are a couple other options. Autochthonia seems to be selling that if things don't change then everyone's in for a really bad time.
 
Of course Autochthon's sickness can't be cured by Alchemicals, for the same reason Yozis can't be freed. His sickness looms over the entire setting of Autochthonia, being the Ultimate Problem, and if he can be cured within the context of an Autochthonia game then this plot will devour all plots by its stakes and scope. Preventing Alchemicals from fixing it opens up greater narrative space.

The issue here is allowing anyone to cure it at all, but if there was truly no hope then it would make Autochthonia even bleaker than it is. Restricing that possibility to Solars is a clumsy compromise, but better than either alternative.
Here is a better compromise. "The sickness that torments Autochthon is fundamental to his nature and is present in every aspect of his world body even if it is dormant in most of it. If a cure is to be found it will require resources from beyond the seal of eight divinities and require a change in his nature every bit as great as that of his former peers when they became the Yozi. Autochthon will always be sick as long as he remains Autochthon. The questions you must answer are how can he be changed, what will he become, and is it worth the cost?"
 
That doesn't make sense. The comparable task isn't freeing the Yozis, its saving Creation from threat X. Curing Autocthon should be potentially doable in the same way that slaying the Neverborn or rebuilding some grand ward against the Wyld is doable: it's going to be the ambition behind a campaign, but actually doing it will undoubtably require a ton of other more minute-to-minute engaging stuff. Especially since Autocthon doesn't have much else in the way of things to really strive for, beyond maintaining the status quo in one respect or another, I'm not sure what your objection is.
Autochthon's sickness defines Autochthonia by dooming it. The whole setting is shaped by the resources scarcity brought about by his disease. If Autochthon can be cured without basically playing another game, all other concerns are dwared by this, and your players ask you why they're bothering engaging in magitech espionnage against a rival nation when they could be fixing the world.

But if they can't, then there are a thousand things to be doing in the long, long timeframe before the apocalypse really kicks in.

Creation has a thousand dooms, so yes, you can have many "Save the world from Threat X" plots. Autochthon's sickness isn't that. It defines its setting in a way the Neverborn don't.

Only if by "greater narrative space" you mean "PC Alchemicals are forced to contract-out in order to solve the problem literally in their own backyard."

If that is your argument, then there is really no reason for Alchemicals to be playable, as their "narrative space" in that context relies primarily as being an accessory to the Real Heroes coming in and finishing up what they couldn't.
No, their narrative space relies on 'you can't cure Autochthon,so let's instead play out the drama and conflict arising from the backdrop of his grandiose decay and slow death.' If you want to cure him, you have to rely on ST fiat to open the seal and basically start playing a different game, which most STs who set out to run Autochthonia will be unwilling to do.
 
Because I think that a lot of Shyft's points wrt Bad Design Space are reasonable-especially the Demiurge one and the one about the setting.

Personally, I didn't like Demiurges, but this is primarily because I always thought the Alchemicals should be classified as Terrestrial Exalted, and if they can't, heh, reproduce without direct Primordial interference this does not work.
 
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Autochthon's sickness defines Autochthonia by dooming it. The whole setting is shaped by the resources scarcity brought about by his disease. If Autochthon can be cured without basically playing another game, all other concerns are dwared by this, and your players ask you why they're bothering engaging in magitech espionnage against a rival nation when they could be fixing the world.

But if they can't, then there are a thousand things to be doing in the long, long timeframe before the apocalypse really kicks in.

Creation has a thousand dooms, so yes, you can have many "Save the world from Threat X" plots. Autochthon's sickness isn't that. It defines its setting in a way the Neverborn don't.
Once again, the comparable example would be "why are you bothering with your petty squabbles with the Realm when you could be fixing the world?"

The reason you're doing so is because cooperation is hard, the incentives are set up such that it's discouraged, and you think you'll be able to do stuff on your own. The smart way to construct an "autocthon needs to be saved" plot hook would revolve around that stuff: it requires resources that other people want to survive the next few months, cooperation from factions not inclined to help you, and all of this is going to mean you aren't focusing as much on the millions of little problems that pile up.

The resource scarcity of Autocthon has nothing to do with his sickness, any everything to do with the fact that his body is finite and mostly incredibly hostile to squishy humans because it's made of smashing pillars and scalding heat and lightning blasts and spirits that don't like intrusion.

At the end of the day, things that make it impossible to save Autocthon are flaws of the setting because saving Autocthon axiomatically should be available. The games supposed to be about big damn heroes.
 
I'm afraid I must bow out of this conversation at this point, as typing anything beyond a couple sentences on this phone is literally hell, complete with fire and laughing demons.
 
No, their narrative space relies on 'you can't cure Autochthon,so let's instead play out the drama and conflict arising from the backdrop of his grandiose decay and slow death.' If you want to cure him, you have to rely on ST fiat to open the seal and basically start playing a different game, which most STs who set out to run Autochthonia will be unwilling to do.
"Everything you do is pointless because you're condemned to die from the very beginning. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually, so just deal with that if you want to try running a game here" was a shitty premise when it got used for Dreams of the First Age, and while that was by no means its only flaw as a setting, it remains a flaw because the Exalted were built up, as a game-concept, to achieve impossibly grandiose goals without it being termed "too out-there." When you demark out a single Exalt type to say, "actually no, you're not able to do the impossible, but you can use your Very Very Good skills to contact those who can!" you are setting up a Shitty Campaign regardless of how much drama you feel it generates by comparison.

What you are suggesting is equal to a Balorian Crusade game where no one gets to be the ones breaking down the doors to the Imperial Manse, because The EMPRESS is the one who get to take care of the world-spanning problem, while your job is to put out literally-endless fey incursions and footslog your way through meaningless ground-battles until the Contagion gets you.

Fuck that.
 
I don't think the books should say whether Autochthon's sickness can be cured, or who it can be cured by if it can.

Obviously, his sickness hasn't been cured. Nobody in-setting has any way of knowing whether it can be, or could have been. And I don't see any benefit, game-play-wise, to giving everyone who reads the book an answer to that question.

Alchemicals have tried to cure their patron. Hasn't worked. Maybe they can pull it off if they keep trying, maybe they can't. Outlook is grim, at the moment.

Can your Solar do better? Try it and see.

Actually, I'll go a step further. The books should almost never say whether something is possible in-setting. And even when it does say "the dead aren't coming back" the limitation shouldn't be something the characters know about in-setting. A Solar doctor might have excellent reason to believe they can bring the dead back. Their magic science indicates that there might be a chance, and they don't know about the themes of the game. They don't even know they're fictional.

As Dif pointed out with his analysis of Charms, Holden consistently included bad mechanical ideas and/or allowed bad mechanical ideas to go forward under his authority, without holding to professional standards of conduct or quality assurance. He is not a man I would want to give money.

I'm not saying you should give him money.

Just spend less time talking about how much you hate him and everything he's done.

The biggest problem I have with Alchemicals is that oftentimes its premises conflict with the conclusions. You have this setting-a hardscrabble industrial socialist setting, an explicitly technological one where everyone has constant political and often martial disagreements. Wars are fought in tight quarters for access to resources, because resources are absolutely precious things. Cities are often incredibly hostile territory, controlled by actual death robots. And yet you have things like masses of untrained militia levies being a thing.

Oftentimes they have this place which is cool and alien-and then they don't really want to own the setting, and so they take a step back from the premises. You have a setting which can have all the trappings of cyberpunk-augmented, Enlightened mortals as Shadowrunners, working either as mercenaries outside of their caste as one of the few ways of gaining social mobility pre-mortem, would fit the setting they've created, but they back out of it for buff coats and crossbows. It's basically the trireme thing writ large-it seems that they want a gritty realistic setting over which the heroic powers of the Exalted are contrasted, but don't have the political science and economic backing to really write that.

Fair enough.

I'm not sure how much I would like Shadowrun-Autochthonia if I was actually reading it, but the idea at least sounds appealing.
 
I don't think the books should say whether Autochthon's sickness can be cured, or who it can be cured by if it can.

Manual of Exalted Power: The Alchemicals - pg.113 said:
In general, Autochthonian magic (including Alchemical Charms) cannot cure Gremlin Syndrome. The Great Maker does not possess the means to undo his own intrinsic illness. Only the arts of the Solar Exalted, such as Order-Affirming Blow (see Exalted, p. 218) or Solar Circle Sorcery, have the capacity to cleanse a subject of Gremlin Syndrome.

That seems pretty clear-cut to me.
 
Autochthon's sickness defines Autochthonia by dooming it. The whole setting is shaped by the resources scarcity brought about by his disease. If Autochthon can be cured without basically playing another game, all other concerns are dwared by this, and your players ask you why they're bothering engaging in magitech espionnage against a rival nation when they could be fixing the world.

But if they can't, then there are a thousand things to be doing in the long, long timeframe before the apocalypse really kicks in.

Creation has a thousand dooms, so yes, you can have many "Save the world from Threat X" plots. Autochthon's sickness isn't that. It defines its setting in a way the Neverborn don't.
You are fighting over resources because your city needs it to survive. If you are off questing to "cure Autocthon" they won't be getting those resources and they might all die because of it even if they don't they won't be happy with you next time they see you. Autocthon has always been sick and living with that is all Autocthonian humans know. Any time you spend trying to solve the big problem is time spent not helping your people for a goal that many believe impossible and history says you aren't likely to succeed any more than the last 100 alchemicals who tried. You need to keep your city happy with your work if you want to continue on your personal project of saving everything.

Also remember how in my post I suggested that fixing the illness requires fetich deathing Autobot and making him become a new non-sick primoridal. What do you think is going to happen to anyone living inside him when that happens. A quick death is one if the best possibilities. You would be literally breaking the world with people still living in it with a process that certainly isn't going to be non-destructive leading up to that point. Odds are you will be a rouge asset by that point hunted by your own nation and the entire adament caste trying to put an end to your hubris filled quest to 'fix' autobot at the cost of everything that lives inside. Where are you getting the resources to pull that off with so many enemies? Did you recruit many of your peers before making your move? Did you create a ninth nation supported a rogue matropolis? Did you breach the seal of eight divinities and recruit allies from creation? Did you take over your home nation? Is one autobots third circles backing you?

Is the cure worse than the disease? Will your plan to control the destruction into a healthy primordial even work or will all this death just create Megathon the Plagueridden Engine. That seems to be great drama to me and plenty of reasons not to do it if that plot line isn't your thing.

Alternatively you are part of the team sent to put an end to the cult of insane rogue alchemicals trying to fix autobot in order to save the eight nations.
 
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Autochthon's sickness defines Autochthonia by dooming it. The whole setting is shaped by the resources scarcity brought about by his disease. If Autochthon can be cured without basically playing another game, all other concerns are dwared by this, and your players ask you why they're bothering engaging in magitech espionnage against a rival nation when they could be fixing the world.

But if they can't, then there are a thousand things to be doing in the long, long timeframe before the apocalypse really kicks in.

Creation has a thousand dooms, so yes, you can have many "Save the world from Threat X" plots. Autochthon's sickness isn't that. It defines its setting in a way the Neverborn don't.


No, their narrative space relies on 'you can't cure Autochthon,so let's instead play out the drama and conflict arising from the backdrop of his grandiose decay and slow death.' If you want to cure him, you have to rely on ST fiat to open the seal and basically start playing a different game, which most STs who set out to run Autochthonia will be unwilling to do.

This is all great and stuff but the problem is that by excplicitly pointing out that their is a cure and it exists in a certain direction that means that all this grandiose film noir struggle against entropy stuff is the biggest idiot ball in the entire setting.

Their is a solution to Autocthon's illness. It's Solar. The only right and correct action is breaking the Seal, finding Solars and fixing Autocthon. Everything else is entirely overshadowed by the fact this is possible and you're not doing it. Because you are idiots.

It would be like if, say, in the real world we could solve global warming by just going to Mars and flipping the Climate Fixing Switch. Yeah, getting to Mars is hard. But frankly, if there was a big button on Mars that fixed the environment it is basically the only thing we should be doing as a species.

And you could claim the Autocthonians don't know this. But that's not important. Because we the audience know this. Thus while I'm sitting around playing out Ghost in the Shell; communist aztec robot version, it will constantly be in the back of my head "Nothing Majority of Seven Sections does matters because all this fighting void cults is meaningless next to the fact she could be breaching the seal, finding Solars, fixing the entire world and rendering this plotline pointless."

It's the anti Yozi's can't escape problem. By offering a solution to what is supposed to be an intractable problem you render the problem... tractable. And thus the action of not solving it into wasted effort.

It's like how the existence of the Redemption rules for Abyssals destroyed the conceit of the Great Curse. Oh great, now we explicitly know how to actually fix the Solar Exalted. We can just turn them all into Abyssals, then redeem them, and the Great Curse is gone. Is this risky? Yeah. Will it work? Yeah. Why are we not doing this?

Once again, the comparable example would be "why are you bothering with your petty squabbles with the Realm when you could be fixing the world?"

But the trick here is there is no fixing the world. You can't actually solve the major problems of Exalted in the long term, only hold them off indefinitely. This isn't the equivalent of Dragonblooded being selfish in the face of a world falling apart due to inevitable forces. This is the equivalent of their being a Save The World button and the Dragonblooded not pushing it because... well, the idiot ball.

Yes, you can houserule it out. But that's stupid and you should never have to do that. The book should offer some explicitly non canon options for perhaps maybe dealing with Autocthon's sickness or it being intractable regardless of what you do. In other words it should have been dealt with exactly like the possibility of the Yozi's escape. "By default no, nobody will ever cure Autocthon. But here are some potential plot hooks if you want to run that plotline anyway with some justifications why some other Assembly hasn't done this before now..."
 
This is all great and stuff but the problem is that by excplicitly pointing out that their is a cure and it exists in a certain direction that means that all this grandiose film noir struggle against entropy stuff is the biggest idiot ball in the entire setting.

Their is a solution to Autocthon's illness. It's Solar. The only right and correct action is breaking the Seal, finding Solars and fixing Autocthon. Everything else is entirely overshadowed by the fact this is possible and you're not doing it. Because you are idiots.

It would be like if, say, in the real world we could solve global warming by just going to Mars and flipping the Climate Fixing Switch. Yeah, getting to Mars is hard. But frankly, if there was a big button on Mars that fixed the environment it is basically the only thing we should be doing as a species.

Honestly I'm really very iffy on this line of argument. I'm not crazy about the Solar cure (I find the agency argument very compelling) but the "there is an obvious solutions" is one that I don't find nearly as compelling. The problem is that while Autochthon is defined by the sickness is defined as much (or really even more on the individual level) by scarce resources, and the resources problem has always had "go to creation" as a solution. Creation as an option for the resource issue has aways been around, so I feel framing the problem as "there is a solution" doesn't compel me nearly as much as agency arguments.
 
I honestly have no problem at all with saying that no one can cure Autochthon. He can't, Alchemicals can't, Solars can't. The Autochthon that can be cured is not Autochthon - definitionally, Autochthon is the sick craft-god. In the hypothetical case where a path was found that would excise the sickness, it would also excise his current self - it would be functionally identical to fetich death and thus destroy the entire Autochthonian setting. And even if that's possible, it's not going to be found by a 10 years-post Exaltation circle of Solars.

Of course, that's the kicker, isn't it? People who look for a cure for Autochthon are people who are looking for a magic wand that will make all their problems vanish. But Autochthon managed his sickness for countless aeons before the Primordial War. He remained sick, but the condition could be managed, its symptoms treated, infected organs excised and replacement ones built. And that is the form of the closest thing to a "cure" for Autochthon - constant, ceaseless vigilance and unending work. Sure, Solars would make it easier - if they were willing to devote their life to organising such things, because the work would never end. The machine must keep on turning, and must be fed fuel and parts.

Though, yes, I strongly suspect that any long term viability for this will mean Autochthon will need Wyld access once again. Project Razor is probably less useful than something which gave Autochthon a feeding nozzle that he can stick into the Wyld and slurp up their milkshake from waypoints, because a Primordial is not meant to dwell within Elsewhere like this, slowly suffocating on his own metaphysical recycled air.

It's amusingly possible that under such a circumstance, the only thing the Creationborn would hear of Autochthon's recovery would be terrified tales of raksha fleeing the "Great Devourer" that consumes entire waypoints, sucking them into some terrible void from where none return.
 
Any thoughts? I feel it's workable but I'm not quite satisfied by it; it has essentially no place for the "incrementally become better at X" abilities that allow Exalts to have a spectrum between "defeat ten men" and "defeat a thousand."
I would crib something from @EarthScorpion 's mote reactor hack and make it possible, in some circumstances, to fuel an Excellency with anima flaring - obviously convincing a Wyld Hunt scout that you're not anathema is not going to fly, but in battle, who knows?
Or else refresh create a second stack of, like, 10 Excellency points (Personal and Peripheral?) that make your anima flare.
Also reward 1 Excellency for the equivalent of 2-3d stunts (good write-ins?)?
 
@Omicron, my thoughts run similarly to several others' here
  1. Use Godbound style Words indicating general areas of supernatural ability; under no circumstances write actual Charms as mechanical bundles.
  2. Let Excellencies fuel especially powerful supernatural effects.
  3. Let the character buy additional Excellencies at the cost of anima flare.
 
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