Increasing technological complexity in systems tends to lead to increasing fragility in said systems. And when those systems finally collapse or break you can go backwards technologically faster than you expect.

USN already has to forbid asymmetric warfare tactics in wargames to keep from losing carriers.

And having to forbid tactics in wargames because it offends sensibilities of admirals and lobbies never ends poorly, does it? :rolleyes:
 
What would matter here is the Abyssals' ASW capabilities versus the US submarines' evasion. US submarines are, by global standards, quite sneaky, especially since they don't need to surface.

And by "quite sneaky", he means that you can't actually find an Ohio by looking for it- you have to go active (which lights you up as a target) or look for the hole in the ocean noise around it. Seawolf is just slightly louder. Leveling out as the WW2 subthief equivalent, they basically become Harder.
 
North Carolina might be a marginal case for reactivation, as the most decorated BB of WW2.... except she was really stripped for parts when the Iowas were reactivated back in the 80's. Her number 1 turret is an empty shell, and her engineering spaces are missing a lot of blowers and high-powered air compressors.

Also, her hull below the waterline would basically have to be completely rebuilt, because it's gotten pretty thin.
 
I honestly wasn't aware of the submerged submarines sinking surfaced ones, though now that I think about it it's hardly a surprise.

Can't say if they were submerged or surfaced when sunk, but the Brit T-boats are rather famous for sinking U-Boats.

...30-some-odd U-boats were sunk by T-boats during the war, IIRC.

Aha. That's where I heard that.

38 submarines. Didn't clarify if German, Japanese or Italian. And that sunk or damaged means they may not have all been sunk.

Still, T-boats are curvy sub killers, I imagine.
 
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Can't say if they were submerged or surfaced when sunk, but the Brit T-boats are rather famous for sinking U-Boats.

...30-some-odd U-boats were sunk by T-boats during the war, IIRC.

Aha. That's where I heard that.

38 submarines. Didn't clarify if German, Japanese or Italian. And that sunk or damaged means they may not have all been sunk.

Still, T-boats are curvy sub killers, I imagine.
considering they were nicknamed "the destroyers designed to sink" I'm not that surprised.
 
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The levelling effect doesn't turn WWII IJN sub-girls into something better than WWII IJN submarines were during World War Two.
It's not the leveling effect that makes the lewdmarines useful, it's doctrine that doesn't suck. Goto's using them as free-ranging scouts and harassers, not attaching them to surface fleets like back in WWII. Since they're being placed in a niche that they're actually good at, they're pulling down good results.
That said, US nuclear submarines would basically never surface, so it's kind of moot. They would have incredibly difficult times trying to kill any Abyssal submarines, but the reverse is probably just as true.
They have to come to periscope depth to get good firing solutions, but that's sullying the waters.

Also, no more museum battleships are coming back. The Iowas were held in reasonably-combat-ready condition for years, and their hulls were legally required to be protected from corrosion up into the 2000's. Even then it took gutting every ship the navy could find for parts, round-the-clock shifts from thousands of engineers and welders, and every last drop of magic the ships' spirits had in them to get Wisky and Mo back in the fight. Neither NorCar nor the SoDak sisters are showing up in steel form.

It's a reasonable question to ask, but every time it's been brought up it people eventually get angry. I would appreciate it if the conversation moved in another direction.
 
North Carolina might be a marginal case for reactivation,

This just begs the question, why not Iowa herself? I mean, Mo and Whiskey have been re-activated and put into service, why not Big Sis herself?. Hell, I've had an idea for an omake where this is a major plot point, I'm just too lazy to flush out something complete and that doesn't make a grammatician's (is that even a word?) eyes bleed.
 
Increasing technological complexity in systems tends to lead to increasing fragility in said systems. And when those systems finally collapse or break you can go backwards technologically faster than you expect.
This is predicated on people actually knowing the old school shit.

It's easier for the infantry. A rifle's a rifle, a machine gun's a machine gun; the major improvements have basically been the shift to intermediate cartridges (5.56mm NATO and 5.45mm Russian) and optics. I'm just an FPS gamer who's dabbled with very limited airsofting, but going from irons to red dots is just so amaze.

Less so for ship systems that haven't been used in decades. Part of why the Iowas can never be reactivated IRL is because there are precious few people who know how this all works.

And having to forbid tactics in wargames because it offends sensibilities of admirals and lobbies never ends poorly, does it? :rolleyes:
See below.
On the other hand, we're nearly at the end of the age of capital ships, so ships named for presidents are going to probably be less and less likely going forward.

USN already has to forbid asymmetric warfare tactics in wargames to keep from losing carriers.
Carriers and LHDs are never going away because they remain relevant and you can always find a use for them.

If y'all are thinking of the Millenium Challenge, I should note that Van Ripper was cheating like a motherfucker, as among the shens he got up to included lightspeed bicycle couriers, and sticking AShMs on dhows that would 1) capsize under the weight and 2) lack the radar and FCS to cue those AShMs in the first place.

The media also overestimates CVBG vulnerability to SSKs. A carrier can easily evade an SSK by traveling at flank speed, faster than most SSKs can travel at, and a little known factoid is that while carriers lost organic midrange ASW with the retirement of the S-3 Viking, the USN has been able to consistently deploy P-3 Orions to provide long range ASW coverage for its carriers, and this is before we get into the short range ASW hotness that are Romeo Seahawks on a carrier and DDGs.

The irony is that people whine that carrier groups can't handle asymmetric threats in the littorals, then whine about how LCS (which is supposed to handle asymmetric threats in the littorals) can't handle symmetric threats on the open seas. :V :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the Abyssals are cheating motherfuckers, so they get to cheat their way past most of what I've said. :/
 
Well, from a philosophical perspective, I tend to believe in the old Greek aphorism that after Hubris comes Nemesis. It's just that pinpointing the time when Nemesis decides to come for that visit happens to be the hard part. :)

In the story, we do have the benefit of already having seen the arrival of Nemesis in the Abyssals. Now whether humanity in the story learns the right lessons is still TBD.
 
Well, from a philosophical perspective, I tend to believe in the old Greek aphorism that after Hubris comes Nemesis. It's just that pinpointing the time when Nemesis decides to come for that visit happens to be the hard part. :)

In the story, we do have the benefit of already having seen the arrival of Nemesis in the Abyssals. Now whether humanity in the story learns the right lessons is still TBD.
Perhaps, but you need to ask yourself if the right lessons are being learned. Because it seems to me you're advocating an ability to technologically regress backwards, but in every aspect modern technology and doctrine is superior to WW2 tech and doctrine, it's just that the abyssals have been able to cheat and force a paradigm where that isn't the case.
 
Yeah.

It's kind of hard to say that someone has 'learned a lesson' from a defeat, when that defeat happens in a situation like this. One where by all logic they should be successful, but they are defeated by some kind of magic that doesn't run on logic.

I mean, what's the lesson? "Whatever your plan is, an evil wizard can screw it up?"
 
A wizard did it.

Jintsuu: *rolls a d20 and smiles kindly* That's a nineteen. I successfully sneak past your defense line.
Abyssal BB: St̸͖̱̭͖̞̭ṵ̥̟̬͖̘p̘̹̘̦i̲̤̺̱̦d̬̥͇̯̲̜͘ ̟͉̖̺͓S̖p̴̼ͅo̶t ̤̱̗̲c̶̘̝̟͚̬͚̟h̵̗̼̠͔͔̙ͅe͍͎͉̼̱̘͉c̻̭͠ͅkͅs̺.̘͔̻̯͔.͇.̪͔
 
Spotting mechanics in BelaBatt are directly borrowed from World of Warships. Which means that ships on both sides can magically activate a Romulan Cloaking Device (TM) to disappear from visual spotters and radar.

Unless you're in a VMF/USN/RN cruiser/Missouri and you have Radar up.

Or you got your Hydro up.

But you need to get real close to spot them.
 
A wizard did it.

Jintsuu: *rolls a d20 and smiles kindly* That's a nineteen. I successfully sneak past your defense line.
Abyssal BB: St̸͖̱̭͖̞̭ṵ̥̟̬͖̘p̘̹̘̦i̲̤̺̱̦d̬̥͇̯̲̜͘ ̟͉̖̺͓S̖p̴̼ͅo̶t ̤̱̗̲c̶̘̝̟͚̬͚̟h̵̗̼̠͔͔̙ͅe͍͎͉̼̱̘͉c̻̭͠ͅkͅs̺.̘͔̻̯͔.͇.̪͔
Atomic Battlecruiser Princess: "I KNOW, RIGHT? I USED TO HAVE A BODY! IT WAS A PRETTY OKAY ONE! THEN SOMEONE MANAGED TO HIDE BEHIND A PENINSULA THAT WAS SHORTER THAN THEY WERE! HOOOOOWWW!?"

Texas: "Dess, y'all."
 
A wizard did it.

Jintsuu: *rolls a d20 and smiles kindly* That's a nineteen. I successfully sneak past your defense line.
Abyssal BB: St̸͖̱̭͖̞̭ṵ̥̟̬͖̘p̘̹̘̦i̲̤̺̱̦d̬̥͇̯̲̜͘ ̟͉̖̺͓S̖p̴̼ͅo̶t ̤̱̗̲c̶̘̝̟͚̬͚̟h̵̗̼̠͔͔̙ͅe͍͎͉̼̱̘͉c̻̭͠ͅkͅs̺.̘͔̻̯͔.͇.̪͔

I wanna see Jane play D&D with Shigure

Arizona: "Why does she keep getting 19s and 20s?"
 
If y'all are thinking of the Millenium Challenge, I should note that Van Ripper was cheating like a motherfucker, as among the shens he got up to included lightspeed bicycle couriers, and sticking AShMs on dhows that would 1) capsize under the weight and 2) lack the radar and FCS to cue those AShMs in the first place.

Actually I'm thinking of the time that opfor got a DIESEL SUB they'd borrowed from France within striking range of a carrier and surfaced during exercises.
 
Actually I'm thinking of the time that opfor got a DIESEL SUB they'd borrowed from France within striking range of a carrier and surfaced during exercises.
There are plenty of diesel subs that have surfaced within striking range of a carrier in peacetime and exercises. This doesn't really mean as much as people think, because for a diesel sub to get within striking range of a carrier requires significant prepositioning and luck, and if the carrier group is being srsface about ASW they will have P-3s scouting ahead and clearing the way for them (via liberal spamming of sonobouys), not to mention the desron's ASW helos and the carrier's own ASW helos.

This is ignoring how a CVBG can easily run around at 30 knots for hours, which leaves diesel subs in a quandry, because 1) that's faster than a diesel sub at flank speed and the CVBG can keep that speed up longer than the SSK, and 2) going to flank speed kills an SSK's stealth.

Diesel subs can get kills on carriers in excercises because ex areas are artificially limitedly small - the carrier is not allowed to exit a predetermined area. If you gave full freedom of navigation to the carrier, the diesel sub would never be able to catch it.
 
There are plenty of diesel subs that have surfaced within striking range of a carrier in peacetime and exercises. This doesn't really mean as much as people think, because for a diesel sub to get within striking range of a carrier requires significant prepositioning and luck, and if the carrier group is being srsface about ASW they will have P-3s scouting ahead and clearing the way for them (via liberal spamming of sonobouys), not to mention the desron's ASW helos and the carrier's own ASW helos.

This is ignoring how a CVBG can easily run around at 30 knots for hours, which leaves diesel subs in a quandry, because 1) that's faster than a diesel sub at flank speed and the CVBG can keep that speed up longer than the SSK, and 2) going to flank speed kills an SSK's stealth.

Diesel subs can get kills on carriers in excercises because ex areas are artificially limitedly small - the carrier is not allowed to exit a predetermined area. If you gave full freedom of navigation to the carrier, the diesel sub would never be able to catch it.

The advantages of a SSN over a SSK are twofold - submerged endurance, and higher silent speed. I believe the Seawolf-class can make 25 knots silent and 35 flank while submerged. They're significantly slower on the surface.
 
The advantages of a SSN over a SSK are twofold - submerged endurance, and higher silent speed. I believe the Seawolf-class can make 25 knots silent and 35 flank while submerged. They're significantly slower on the surface.
Pretty much, yes. That's why the US basically abandoned diesel-electric submarines, since the US has interests worldwide and thus needs the endurance of nuclear power. Note that the nations with diesel-electric submarines are generally not making the long range around the world deployments American subs do.

Below 5 knots, an SSK is effectively silent. Unfortunately that limits what you can do... All post WW2 subs are definitely faster submerged than surfaced, due to the design of their hulls. They're true submarines, as opposed to WW2 subs which were basically surface ships that occasionally went underwater.
 
It's a lot higher than that as far as I'm aware.

I used the public domain numbers.

Also? 35 knots is fucking fast. That said, the Virginia-class may be capable of 40 at flank (supposedly, they've been observed going that fast), but all the Navy will say is that they're capable of over 30 knots.
 
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