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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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55 PS six turns from now, at best, assuming all the rolls go well and we don't get distracted by anything else and no needs to spend it crop up, just isn't worth it compared to getting up to 55 right here and now by pressing one button and never having to think about it again and then supplementing into actually GOOD range with the smaller projects. I also don't trust that it will stay +10 for two more turns, it'll probably go down to +7 next turn or something and then +5 and then +2 or whatever, the scale of the turns is small enough for more gradual adjustments to make sense as we get closer to budgeting rather than having just one big breakpoint at the turn of every year.

E: Beaten by the QM
 
Ithillid said:
Just to let you know, the PS gain goes down in Q3, and goes away after Q4.
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So +5 in Q3 and Q4... argh

Okay for people that voted for my plan would you be okay with me moving 1 dice off of security review (keeping 2) to put 1 dice on resource allocation?


Crazycryodude said:
55 PS six turns from now, at best, assuming all the rolls go well and we don't get distracted by anything else and no needs to spend it crop up, just isn't worth it compared to getting up to 55 right here and now by pressing one button and never having to think about it again and then supplementing into actually GOOD range with the smaller projects. I also don't trust that it will stay +10 for two more turns, it'll probably go down to +7 next turn or something and then +5 and then +2 or whatever, the scale of the turns is small enough for more gradual adjustments to make sense as we get closer to budgeting rather than having just one big breakpoint at the turn of every year.

E: Beaten by the QM
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55 is far from at best, the services are very easy to fit in and with more income we should be seeing additional orbital dice activated so more likely 60. And getting up to 55 right now is shooting ourselves in the foot, we have to do a certain amount of space force projects and orbital before the plan is out and those are expensive.

From Q1 2050 results:
To counter this, Space Force has requested an extreme expansion of orbital assets. This includes the reconstruction of ASAT networks, the establishment of an orbital command station, and further Ion Networks to be established in earth's orbit as well as higher geosynchronous orbits. In addition, they have requested a new orbital marine regiment be established and subordinated to them based on the Zone Trooper pattern. This will be extremely expensive, as effectively much of Space Force is being rebuilt from scratch.

[ ] Limit Expansion: While the full program is far too extensive to be carried out, some of the proposed systems can be built and fielded. While far less than the military services actually want, the limits can be defended on fiscal grounds. (-5 PS) (Half of proposed programs must be attempted by end of Q4 2054) Given that we need to start doing these over the next 6 turns -45 income means we have to ignore fires or we are taking a big hit when we fail to do so, so trading out a bunch of resources now only for us to fail the space force expansion means we are losing some or all of that PS gain at best. Or we concentrate on space and let more fires develop.
 
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[X] Plan Share the Wealth and the Fish (Conservative)
 
Crazycryodude said:
I also don't trust that it will stay +10 for two more turns, it'll probably go down to +7 next turn or something and then +5 and then +2 or whatever, the scale of the turns is small enough for more gradual adjustments to make sense as we get closer to budgeting rather than having just one big breakpoint at the turn of every year.
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At least for now, I am probably going to be doing most of my increments in five point steps. That might change, and probably will at some point in the future, once I am more settled with other parts of the quest.
 
Void Stalker said:
55 is far from at best, the services are very easy to fit in and with more income we should be seeing additional orbital dice activated so more likely 60. And getting up to 55 right now is shooting ourselves in the foot, we have to do a certain amount of space force projects and orbital before the plan is out and those are expensive.
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+30 is the absolute theoretical max we could get from projects if we did every single project that gives PS available right now, bringing us up to 55 at best. Not every space station gives PS, only the Shala and Philadelphia, and once their first stages are tapped out they're only going to get more expensive and less efficient resource to PS ratios. With our PS as low as it is and sources so thin on the ground we really need to be cashing out as much of our ultimately doomed income as possible at this 90:10 exchange rate.

Even if we cash out three dice worth of income this turn when it's still worth it (15 Resources for only 5 PI instead of 10 is way less worth it I wouldn't support cashing out in later turns) AND do the easy projects in Services our absolute theoretical max is 70 PS before spending any of it, which we will definitely have to do somewhere at some point. 70 is just barely into what I would consider "good" instead of mediocre, and we're probably not going to end up at 70, we'll have to skip a project here or there and spend some on an emergency etc.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
+30 is the absolute theoretical max we could get from projects if we did every single project that gives PS available right now, bringing us up to 55 at best. Not every space station gives PS, only the Shala and Philadelphia, and once their first stages are tapped out they're only going to get more expensive and less efficient resource to PS ratios. With our PS as low as it is and sources so thin on the ground we really need to be cashing out as much of our ultimately doomed income as possible at this 90:10 exchange rate. Even if we cash out three dice worth of income this turn when it's still worth it (15 Resources for only 5 PI instead of 10 is way less worth it I wouldn't support cashing out in later turns) AND do the easy projects in Services our absolute theoretical max is 70 PS before spending any of it, which we will definitely have to do somewhere at some point. 70 is just barely into what I would consider "good" instead of mediocre, and we're probably not going to end up at 70, we'll have to skip a project here or there and spend some on an emergency etc.
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No, the orbital projects that give +5 PS give +5 PS per phase we complete so +30 is not the cap. We also need to do the Philadelphia because of promises we made to the space force back in results of the 1st turn- and we need other space projects to and those tend to be expensive resources per dice so trading off 45 resources is not something we can afford to do and keep our promise. So cashing out resources for PS now only to either 1) fail to meet the promise or 2) ignore some of our other fires does not seem a sustainable option.

@Ithillid if we fail the space force expansion promise what will happen?
 
I'm aware that they have higher stages that will continue granting PS, my point is that there's no way the math will work out so that resources spent for PS on space stations will be a more efficient resource to PS ratio as just cashing out that same amount of income now. We also didn't promise to totally rebuild the Philadelphia, we promised to make progress on 2/4 of:
Philadelphia
ASAT
Orbital troops
High orbit ion cannons

We've got ASAT checked off already, and the orbital RCT's are up soon on the military docket, there's no need to touch the Philadelphia (or any of the space stations) at all unless it's for PS. And it's a bad trade for PS in terms of resource to reward ratio, there's no way we're going to be able to finish two full stages of Philadelphia or Shala for less than 90 Resources which is what we'd have to do to make it a better exchange rate than cashing out the 90R for 10 PS right now.
 
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Void Stalker said:
And how many phases of the multiphase projects need to be done? And for that matter for the options that open up factories how many do we need to consider the promise fulfilled?
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None of the Space Force things are opening up factories. You have completed 1/4 of the projects with ASAT, and otherwise Cryo has the right of it in terms of what you promised.
 
Crazycryodude said:
We've got ASAT checked off already, and the orbital RCT's are up soon on the military docket, there's no need to touch the Philadelphia (or any of the space stations) at all unless it's for PS. And it's a bad trade for PS in terms of resource to reward ratio, there's no way we're going to be able to finish two full stages of Philadelphia or Shala for less than 90 Resources which is what we'd have to do to make it a better exchange rate than cashing out the 90R for 10 PS right now.
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If we only did the stations for PS sure that is a bad ration, there is however a benefit to doing stations outside of PS - Shala opens up more food production (which we seem like we will always need) and Philly gives us an admin center

Edit- swapped out 1 dice from security review to resource allocation, should still be seeing +25 to +50 income so enough for 2-5 more dice each turn depending on income and projects. One thing to keep in mind before allocating away more resources is that we would need to do logistics projects before the next glacier mining. Also would be nice for income to come with mitigation since tiberium is still spreading and killing us slowly.
 
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Don't forget, though, that PS isn't our main goal. Tiberium Mitigation is. PS is just a resource we need to manage along the way.

Updating my vote:

[X] Plan Share the Wealth and the Fish (Conservative)
[X] Plan Share the Wealth and the Fish (Radical)
 
Void Stalker said:
If we only did the stations for PS sure that is a bad ration, there is however a benefit to doing stations outside of PS - Shala opens up more food production (which we seem like we will always need) and Philly gives us an admin center
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Or we could just build more food production and administrative boosters on the ground. One hydroponics bay in orbit as a proof of concept isn't going to feed nearly as many people as spending the same amount of cash on deploying mature technologies at scale on the surface. Growing food in orbit is a political stunt and a proof of concept for feeding other orbital projects, not feeding people on the surface. If we had more orbital infrastructure already in place and one of our dice was locked down due to needing to constantly ship food up the well or something then the Shala would be worth pursuing but as-is it looks like purely a political stunt to me. The Philadelphia is slightly more useful but we can get like 75% of the benefit for like 25% of the cost by repairing the orbital communications network and just giving our capital city down the well a good satellite dish. I don't see the space stations as worth investing in for the immediate future.
 
Crazycryodude said:
Or we could just build more food production and administrative boosters on the ground. One hydroponics bay in orbit as a proof of concept isn't going to feed nearly as many people as spending the same amount of cash on deploying mature technologies at scale on the surface. Growing food in orbit is a political stunt and a proof of concept for feeding other orbital projects, not feeding people on the surface. If we had more orbital infrastructure already in place and one of our dice was locked down due to needing to constantly ship food up the well or something then the Shala would be worth pursuing but as-is it looks like purely a political stunt to me. The Philadelphia is slightly more useful but we can get like 75% of the benefit for like 25% of the cost by repairing the orbital communications network and just giving our capital city down the well a good satellite dish. I don't see the space stations as worth investing in for the immediate future.
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There is a limit on the number of dice we can allocate to agri on the ground given our current capital goods crisis so using dice in other categories to provide even a single + food is going to be useful. And at worse Shala provides food for any orbital stations and troops. Philly also allows us to coordinate station activity once we get the two non PS up and running plus it is a powerful symbol that will resonate when it comes time to discuss the next plan outside of the straight PS it provides. As is I have moved 1 dice to resource reallocation so we should be sitting at 60+ come next plan

Edit- also the Philly is more attractive to me because that fulfills our space promise and does not take any of our mil dice. With the likelyhood of free dice being tied up in capital goods for the next few turns and other fires after that I do not want to spend our limited mil dice on space forces when we will have artillery factories, more zone suit factories and railgun refits to do. As IC we can draw conclusions that we will need to fight NOD again at some point as we are already skirmishing so building up seems like a good idea more so as it lets us combat tiberium more effectively and increase GDI resources overall. Once Kane attacks this will become even more obvious that the fight is not done yet.

Derpmind said:
Don't forget, though, that PS isn't our main goal. Tiberium Mitigation is. PS is just a resource we need to manage along the way.

Updating my vote:

[X] Plan Share the Wealth and the Fish (Conservative)
[X] Plan Share the Wealth and the Fish (Radical)
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True, and more resources help with taking tiberium projects for that mitigation while also dealing with all our other fires.
 
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The next 4 year plan will probably have a rebuild the Philly up to a certain point provision in it. We are supposed to be restoring the Pre-War balance, pretty soon the politicians are going to want the old capital back.
 
SoHowAreYou said:
The next 4 year plan will probably have a rebuild the Philly up to a certain point provision in it. We are supposed to be restoring the Pre-War balance, pretty soon the politicians are going to want the old capital back.
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Philadelphia was just the command and control center for the military. I think the actual political center of GDI is in the UK (Blue Zone 3).
But it was a big symbol of GDI for more than 20 years. Rebuilding it would certainly raise morale.
 
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trooperist said:
Philadelphia was just the command and control center for the military. I think the actual political center of GDI is in the UK (Blue Zone 3).
But it was a big symbol of GDI for more than 20 years. Rebuilding it would certainly raise morale.
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Huh ok I thought civilian leadership was there and that's why they got wiped out.

Though a bigger unrelated question to the thread, what's the long term plan with the yellow zone population? Once we have them all in basic housing and out of camps are we going to move them into blue zones, or are we going to keep them in Yellow zones?
 
Void Stalker said:
True, and more resources help with taking tiberium projects for that mitigation while also dealing with all our other fires.
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I don't think trying to do a bunch of orbital projects right now is a good idea. Two dice in Orbital is 50 R per turn, and we'd be lucky to gain +10 PS in exchange from doing that. 30 R a turn for 20 PS is a much better exchange, as it gives us more R and more PS to spend on other things
 
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I'm more inclined to building things for PS rather than buying it with resources per turn. Even if it is more expensive in terms of resources spent to acquire PS we also get whatever we build, which we will have to try and build anyway just with less resources.
 
SoHowAreYou said:
Huh ok I thought civilian leadership was there and that's why they got wiped out.
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The reason the destruction of the Philadelphia was so devastating was that GDI leaders were on board for the annual energy summit since it was the most secure place, so the attack wiped out most of the upper levels of GDI leadership in multiple fields.

Incidentally, the reason they had the ASAT control center of the ground instead of securely in orbit with a station of its own was because it would have been too expensive.
So perhaps there's a lesson there.
 
Derpmind said:
I don't think trying to do a bunch of orbital projects right now is a good idea. Two dice in Orbital is 50 R per turn, and we'd be lucky to gain +10 PS in exchange from doing that. 30 R a turn for 20 PS is a much better exchange, as it gives us more R and more PS to spend on other things.
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1 dice though is 20 R per turn which lets us get the Philly done (and if we want to do comm sats on the side that is 15 R normal). Getting philly done gets us +5 PS for phase 1 and fulfills our space promise without using mil dice which we need on other projects for this plan. And given that our income is going to drop quite a bit once the next plan rolls around unless we ask for a higher share than we did this time (25%) getting some orbital work done before we have to leave that idle for the 1st year or 2 of the next plan seems like a good idea. Also can move to Shala phase 1 or philly phase 2 with that 1 dice as it should not take 6 turns to finish phase 1 (unless we get ASAT dice)

I also swapped a dice over to resource allocation so there is +10 PS from there I just dont think giving up another 30 a turn is worth it given the big income drop coming in 6 turns and how much stuff we still need to get done to prevent more fires from popping up. Also means we can focus on the mitigation tiberium options as opposed to the big income ones.

Edit-Also per QM we are around 700 likely to close in on 800 this turn.
At 25% resource distribution (-5 PS last time) we will have 200 R starting next plan, we can go to 30% for -20 PS 240 R and 40% for -30 PS 320 R. The last is going to be below our current income and not feasible to in terms of PS and also departmental spending. Most likely we will want to stick at 25% and than take some tiberium projects to boost that. It does mean however that we are going to have a major drop in the number of dice we activate for the first few turns of the next plan assuming we go heavy on income. Which does mean we need a good amount of income to get to the point that we have fewer fires to deal with in 7 turns.
 
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I wonder if it is possible to build the first two stages of the Enterprise station and have that station build the other ones.
 
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