Remove ads

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Reader mode
Pertuarbo101 said:
I mean in skirmish the Steel Talons where actually really good stat and unit wise. The Titan MK2 could beat any standard enemy tank one on one with room to spare, the Wolverine meant that a veichle force without any infantry was a perfectly viable strat, the hammerhead is awesome and the troop compartment made the Juggernaut way more versatile and useful. Engineer with pistol was useful as well in a race against enemy engineers. Outside of the campaign (where you're the protagonist so of course you've got to win) the Steel Talons in the expansion kicked ass and where tied with marked of Kane for favourite subfraction and where one of the stronger ones competitively. This is ignoring how many of the fun toys for this quest are locked behind them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I was 'only' playing the Hard AI and let me tell you. Trying to defeat Steel Talons as ZOCOM was hell. The only strategy that I got to work was rushing income, throwing small disposable defences and unit task forces at strategic points whilst beelining the MARV. And even then I expected to lose a MARV or two before I'd killed enough behemoths and seized their wreckage with engineers to actually be able to win.

Other factions at least had some competitive paths to fighting them, but if you didn't have the MARV by the time behemoths and/or railguns were on the field as zocom, you were screwed. There was just nothing able to trade evenly in your Arsenal by then. Except maybe the Hammerhead with rockets. But that was just asking for slingshots and needed an airfield, diverting from the MARV.
 
Last edited:
Image said:
The Steel Talons could stop warlords but feel short when it absolutely counted. That cannot be gainsaid. Their entire division was made to fight the battles that they lost. Its a little hard not too see them as failures.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


As I've said before, in Australia they had the entirety (or at least the vast majority) of the Black Hand bottled up. Nods elite wing responsible for all intelligence, counter-intelligence, secret police, spec ops, commando, political officer and frontline anchor duties for the Brotherhood. The branch of Nod from whom are drawn the highly trained Confessors who lead the militia around them into the fight and get given the best weapons Nod can provide. The same branch that likely trains and organises the Shadow Teams and Nods own Commando forces while also being the sole operators of powered armour that can provide an equivalent to GDI Zone Armour. The group who were from the start Kanes feared right hand both inside the Brotherhood and without who spawned the likes of Anton Slavik, chosen successor to Kane. Well, right up until Marcion was manipulated into killing him.

So in addition to fighting the most powerful single group in Nod, who in the lore can very quickly bring powerful warlords to heel and are entrusted to protect Kane himself, they guarded GDIs main liquid Tiberium research facility and the stealth technology research complex. Actually spreading them out a fair bit. So whilst performing admirably in a Yellow Zone where they are in a state of constant low-medium intensity conflict they get blindsided by the most advanced AI ever created on Earth in what is first a surprise attack to steal back Nods stealth tech followed by their encirclement of the Black Hand being broken from behind and later a massive assault with significant stealth assets to kidnap a GDI scientist.

I'm sorry, but at what point does a division that by that point had been getting kicked about by the higher ups for years deserve the blame for failing to continue holding the line so well? At the stealth facility the garrison was outthought, overwhelmed and forced to call for help against LEGION. At the Black Hand compound they were caught on both sides and the line was crushed. I'm pretty sure at the liquid Tib complex the rather sizeable garrison present actually fought to the bitter end against LEGION to keep the facility away from Nod until it was destroyed around them turning Australia into a Red Zone in the process.

As you've admitted when presented the statistics of Cheyenne they did an absolutely stellar job holding the line until they physically couldn't. That is exactly what they've been doing since their founding. The only times they've gotten their asses handed to them that we know of has been fighting LEGION which also wrecked one of the first MARV fleets and helped create a counter to the MARV.

Now the problem is that they need new gear to keep performing at that level. They're an elite unit fighting basically trying to fight the Iraq War with gear from the 60s. Entirely possible, but you aren't going to be winning any friends by making them do it. We did have excellent reasons not to fund them and the rest of the armed forces need funding but we can't keep putting off their projects forever.

I'm actually almost certain that the next time the QM prods us about the armed forces he's not going to be mentioning MARVS or ZOCOM or anything else but how a Talons unit was caught out and went down swinging in a battle they could of won with new gear.
 
Last edited:
Simon_Jester said:
The big question/mystery/problem there is, how did the Scrin and their tiberium paradigm get into the Reapers' walled garden of random periodic extermination in the first place?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Scrin occupy that sweet spot people thought that the Yahg might have occupied if the canon cycle had gone tits up? That is, the Scrin were low tech enough that they scraped under the Reaper's attention while the mecha-cuddlefish were erasing the Prothean empire, while being just advanced enough to be able to explode onto the galactic scene after all the Reapers left for inter-galactic space. Given that there's been ~500,000 years since that culling, I'd think the Scrin have had plenty of time to discover Tiberium and figure out how to control it.
 
Simon_Jester said:
(@Ithillid , is there any particular reason ASAT upgrades aren't classified as a Space Force project? I was surprised to notice that...)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Because back in Q1 2050, it was already there, and it has not been moved since. It is something that was so obvious that you had it from turn one, without asking the Space Force if they wanted it.
 
Chimeraguard said:
They weren't even forced to retreat at the stealth facility. Kane outright told LEGION to pull back once it had the stealth tech because they couldn't win a fight with the Steel Talons if they stuck around for a slugging match.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, fair enough. I remember Kane mentioning the word "retreat". That would somewhat reinforce my point in a different way, they didn't hold out heroically until beaten. They actually chased off LEGION, then it learned and came back smarter and better equipped.
 
One, not all of the high priority stuff got marked. It is coming, but it was not marked in the first turn afterwards. There is a bit of a roll in. Generally, for the military, something marked High Priority is something that a particular branch is interested in, while Very High Priority is reserved for things like Ablat, which is vital for everyone.
As for civilian stuff, generally fewer things get priority period, because large sections just don't qualify. How you get consumer/capital goods does not much matter to the rest of the government. Same with food. You are the treasury secretary, figuring that out is your problem.
 
Ithillid said:
One, not all of the high priority stuff got marked. It is coming, but it was not marked in the first turn afterwards. There is a bit of a roll in. Generally, for the military, something marked High Priority is something that a particular branch is interested in, while Very High Priority is reserved for things like Ablat, which is vital for everyone.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah. So Very High is usually the result of multiple branches wanting the same project, or the top echelons (the equivalent of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) weighing in on behalf of the branch that specifically wants the project?
 
Simon_Jester said:
Ah. So Very High is usually the result of multiple branches wanting the same project, or the top echelons (the equivalent of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) weighing in on behalf of the branch that specifically wants the project?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes.
Take the Governors for example. Literally everyone knows that the convoys must get through, and they see that Governors are one of the key tools for making that happen. And the naval gunfire support and missiles are a nice bonus.
Ablat is something where everyone wants some. It is a nice counter to a fair chunk of the nastiest stuff NOD has on hand. So they want to use it a bit like corn in the american diet, and everyone but the Air Force wants some. And the only reason the Air Force is not interested is because it would screw with their aerodynamics.
 
Ithillid said:
Yes.
Take the Governors for example. Literally everyone knows that the convoys must get through, and they see that Governors are one of the key tools for making that happen. And the naval gunfire support and missiles are a nice bonus.
Ablat is something where everyone wants some. It is a nice counter to a fair chunk of the nastiest stuff NOD has on hand. So they want to use it a bit like corn in the american diet, and everyone but the Air Force wants some. And the only reason the Air Force is not interested is because it would screw with their aerodynamics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Honestly you could probably get some use out of ablatives on an Orca. Given the design those things almost have to be subsonic; it'd slow them down but not necessarily critically.

Though they might want special thinner tiles because enemy laser fire usually doesn't manage to dwell on any one point on an Orca's hull for as long, or with as much intensity, and because weight is a factor.

I wonder if anyone's trying to glue anti-laser ablatives to an infantryman's body armor...
 
we get infantry doing Bored Infantry things with ablat if we dump all mil dice and free dice into it next turn. prolly bored engineer things too.

here have a new house. The walls are ablat. Floors? Ablat. Kitchen counters? Ablat. Toilet? U guessed it
 
VonVonson said:
we get infantry doing Bored Infantry things with ablat if we dump all mil dice and free dice into it next turn. prolly bored engineer things too.

here have a new house. The walls are ablat. Floors? Ablat. Kitchen counters? Ablat. Toilet? U guessed it
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, the laser shooting mutant is grateful and all, but something's gone badly, badly wrong if the laser beams come out that end.
 
For the space force, would the laser systems be only for defense? Probably since I think the current model can only shoot out to a single kilometer. Which is barely anything in space terms. So probably no orbital strike lasers for now.

What exactly is an ion cannon that makes it different from a laser? Some kind of particle beam?
 
Last edited:
trooperist said:
For the space force, would the laser systems be only for defense? Probably since I think the current model can only shoot out to a single kilometer. Which is barely anything in space terms. So probably no orbital strike lasers for now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The crystal beam laser is almost certainly longer-ranged in vacuum, especially if you don't mind making the optics big and delicate (more acceptable for a space bombardment OR defense platform than for something that has to bounce around on top of a tank). There's probably still a maximum effective range imposed by dispersion limits, but it may well be that the lasers would still be viable as weapons fired from low planetary orbit, albeit probably not against the most hardened targets.

This is basically the same tech Nod used in their old-school Obelisks of Light, and those were quite powerful and had maximum ranges competitive with, say, the gun on a main battle tank.

What exactly is an ion cannon that makes it different from a laser? Some kind of particle beam?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That part is definitely handwaved, but "particle beam of some kind" does seem the most likely answer.
 
Simon_Jester said:
This is a meme plan that commits us to seven or eight dice on the Talons, nearly ignoring the rest of the military and leaving us with about 1-2 dice left for all the rest of the armed forces' high priorities.

It is not a good idea unless we've stopped caring about everything but the Talons.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I was being funny memey when I wrote my opinion. Forgot to add emoticons.
 
Gen.Raven said:
The Scrin occupy that sweet spot people thought that the Yahg might have occupied if the canon cycle had gone tits up? That is, the Scrin were low tech enough that they scraped under the Reaper's attention while the mecha-cuddlefish were erasing the Prothean empire, while being just advanced enough to be able to explode onto the galactic scene after all the Reapers left for inter-galactic space. Given that there's been ~500,000 years since that culling, I'd think the Scrin have had plenty of time to discover Tiberium and figure out how to control it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

50.000 years, not 500.000 years, otherwise a viable possibility.
 
Last edited:
trooperist said:
For the space force, would the laser systems be only for defense? Probably since I think the current model can only shoot out to a single kilometer. Which is barely anything in space terms. So probably no orbital strike lasers for now.

What exactly is an ion cannon that makes it different from a laser? Some kind of particle beam?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Keep in mind depending on how space combat is being handled- you want really good range on your point defense if you can manage. There's a lot of ways to turn nukes into stand off weapons like Casaba howitzers or bomb pumped lasers to say nothing of a larger envelope to intercept ordinance or small craft.

On a slightly different tangent I wonder if our laser tech has eventual applications in bomb pumped lasers considering the principles behind using lensing rods to focus the nuclear blast into a laser isn't much different than pumping these synthetic crystals with flash tubes.
 
I do want to get to orbital lasers by Q4 of this year, I imagine they will need a followup project to add to stations but doing so would give us a backup defense beyond the ASAT in case NOD hits it. At the very least we want it before we put a phase 4 station or the housing station up.
 
Void Stalker said:
I do want to get to orbital lasers by Q4 of this year, I imagine they will need a followup project to add to stations but doing so would give us a backup defense beyond the ASAT in case NOD hits it. At the very least we want it before we put a phase 4 station or the housing station up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Personally, I'll settle for "by the end of the Plan," because:

1) I don't think a NOD attack against our big stations is very likely in the near future. Kane is likely still digesting his Tacitus find for at least a few more years and putting his next master plan into place. In canon he makes his move in 2062, but importantly his move didn't include actually having to organize a war against GDI, because he'd taken some pains to avoid needing to do that. Getting his shit sorted for a full-scale Tib War Four would probably take as long or longer.

2) ASAT is a lot more than just a speedbump against such attacks in the first place and we've taken considerable pains to make it so. It won't just fall over at the touch of a few well placed Shadow teams the way it did '47.

3) GDI has probably taken continuity of government measures to ensure that the Philadelphia II isn't a single point of failure for GDI's whole government in an emergency to the same degree that historically left Boyle in charge during Tib War Three. The Philadelphia II is also almost certainly by far the most heavily covered point in the ASAT defenses as a whole after what happened last time.

4) Any target other than the Philadelphia II would only moderately inconvenience GDI if it were destroyed, especially in the short run as part of an overarching master plan, making other targets kind of pointless.

The scale of investment in a Phase 4 station would make its loss more of a problem, mind you- but I don't really think we're going to have any Phase 4 stations operational by the end of the current Plan and I don't really think we should try. I think we'll need to concentrate on getting lunar mining facilities established, putting Shala together for cheap Political Support and to increase the overall space infrastructure's independence of ground support, and using Orbital Cleanup to enhance Resource income and enable further commsat phases for the +Logistics and Political Support. Neglecting all of that to beeline a Phase 4 station would be kind of self-defeating... So I'd rather concentrate on getting good mileage out of the existing and soon-to-exist Phase 3 space infrastructure and our efforts to open up lunar mining for sweet sweet RpT.
 
Simon_Jester said:
3) GDI has probably taken continuity of government measures to ensure that the Philadelphia II isn't a single point of failure for GDI's whole government in an emergency to the same degree that historically left Boyle in charge during Tib War Three. The Philadelphia II is also almost certainly by far the most heavily covered point in the ASAT defenses as a whole after what happened last time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Note, Global Energy Summit. Kane struck at a singular moment of weakness even setting aside everything else. And the station is not nearly as vital for you as it was for prewar GDI. Right now it houses a bunch of bureaucrats and military high command people, but effectively everything is mirrored in groundside bases as well.
 
I think people really overstate the current risk to our orbital efforts. NOD could theoretically compromise the ground based installation and then, at great cost, overwhelm our diminished ASAT, and destroy a lot of our space presence... and then? They can't capitalize on it. Not when their best nuclear launch sites just revealed themselves and are going to be molten glass a few minutes after the initial launch. Not when their espionage assets or major military assets just got burnt taking down Greenland. Not when the Brotherhood is still fatigued by their own losses in the Third War and their elite assets being spent to take on Cheyenne. Not when any assault NOD tried to launch on the Blue Zones would bog down into a nightmare for them. Not when they probably can't even hold the Green Zones in the long term once GDI manages to go on the offensive.

Taking out our space industry isn't, nor will it ever be the direct goal of NOD. It'll be at best an important step that needs a major follow up.
 
Last edited:
Ithillid said:
Note, Global Energy Summit. Kane struck at a singular moment of weakness even setting aside everything else. And the station is not nearly as vital for you as it was for prewar GDI. Right now it houses a bunch of bureaucrats and military high command people, but effectively everything is mirrored in groundside bases as well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah. I'm pretty sure postwar GDI would never seriously consider having all the top-ranking officials on the Philadelphia II at once, summit or no summit. Like I said- continuity of government measures, something to make sure that in the event of a worst case scenario power doesn't abruptly fall into the hands of someone unprepared and unsuited to wield it.

HousePet said:
Praise Shala.
May she bring us bountiful harvests and ion storms.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I like one of those better than the other...?

Karugus said:
I think people really overstate the current risk to our orbital efforts. NOD could theoretically compromise the ground based installation and then, at great cost, overwhelm our diminished ASAT, and destroy a lot of our space presence... and then? They can't capitalize on it. Not when their best nuclear launch sites just revealed themselves and are going to be molten glass a few minutes after the initial launch. Not when their espionage assets or major military assets just got burnt taking down Greenland. Not when the Brotherhood is still fatigued by their own losses in the Third War and their elite assets being spent to take on Cheyenne. Not when any assault NOD tried to launch on the Blue Zones would bog down into a nightmare for them. Not when they probably can't even hold the Green Zones in the long term once GDI manages to go on the offensive.

Taking out our space industry isn't, nor will it ever be the direct goal of NOD. It'll be at best an important step that needs a major follow up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, ideologically and for Kane's personal agenda, it would be desirable to Nod to make sure GDI feels 'trapped' on Earth and forced to eventually accede to Kane's plans due to Kane's superior knowledge of tiberium being the only way to save humanity.

The problem (for them) is that this isn't a goal that can be accomplished with a single masterstroke against a single target anymore. Nod would have to either independently develop a force capable of contesting space for the first time, summon alien support to wipe out the GDI space presence for them, or just find a way to win without doing that.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top