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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Ithillid said:
Energy and Logistics are some of the main bottlenecking tools I have. When you started to go deep on the Glacier mines which would pay themselves off in under a year (which I really don't mind at all) I started giving them a logistics cost, because otherwise the only optimal strategy was Turn 1: Shock RZ mining, Turn 2: Shock Glaciers. Because every other choice was suboptimal from a pure income perspective. So I needed to give you a reason to invest elsewhere. Same with energy. Energy is used everywhere, and so you need to keep building it, which is part of the balancing act to keep you from running away in some area. Without energy costs, you could have done all three of the Rapier Yards and finished zone suits, and deployed the Wolverines in one turn.
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Oh it's perfectly logical. I have absolutely no complaints, and a player of Westwood games, I fully agree and accept that constantly slamming up against power management considerations is the most GDI problem to have possible.

It's just that as a matter of common sense, your bottleneck has worked and we are motivated to do whatever we can to keep it opened back up by expanding our Energy supply.
 
BoSPaladin said:
^

This. Us wanting to build more energy and needing to balance and *shock horror* Plan things out is the system working as intended. :V
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I was more using it as a means to talk some about the behind the scenes reasons some of the quest decisions are made the way that they are. I like talking about the quest not only in universe, but also out of universe, especially because it serves as a means to check my logic. If something is stupid or the reasons I am doing it that way are actively wrong, that is useful information.
 
Oshha said:
If other voters disagree with the planmaker over that change, they can vote for a different plan or make their own rather than trying to force the planmaker to obey their will.
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Voting closes in two hours, there's a whole lot of people who either don't or can't check the thread often enough to keep up with the minute-to-minute discussion, and it's a very common practice to vote for something and then not check the thread until you see an update in your notifications/new threadmarks. I happen to be really active in this specific quest and can keep up with the discussion but there's plenty I follow that I'm less invested in, and my job involves a lot of outdoorsy stuff so there's times when I'm in the middle of the woods for days on end and incapable of checking internet forums even if I wanted to.

If I voted for Plan X on the basis of it having Thing A, and returned after a weekend in the woods to find that Plan X was edited the day after I left to entirely get rid of Thing A and replace it with Thing B I have no interest in, that would be a dick move that abused my previous vote and inability to keep up with the thread or change it. Unless it's early on and a plan hasn't racked up dozens of votes I think it's unfair to people who don't obsessively keep up with the discussion to just change their votes by fiat instead of making a new variant with the things you want changed.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
Voting closes in two hours, there's a whole lot of people who either don't or can't check the thread often enough to keep up with the minute-to-minute discussion, and it's a very common practice to vote for something and then not check the thread until you see an update in your notifications/new threadmarks. I happen to be really active in this specific quest and can keep up with the discussion but there's plenty I follow that I'm less invested in, and my job involves a lot of outdoorsy stuff so there's times when I'm in the middle of the woods for days on end and incapable of checking internet forums even if I wanted to.
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Not being able to compulsively check the thread no doubt has its upsides. Such as not feeling the ever building tension caused by the looming mutation roll.
 
So were getting choked by power issues? Sounds like C&C to me.

I just finished reading the threadmarks last night so I don't have a good grasp on the current course of action. The only thing i understand is that marvs are the best.
 
Ramble said:
So were getting choked by power issues? Sounds like C&C to me.

I just finished reading the threadmarks last night so I don't have a good grasp on the current course of action. The only thing i understand is that marvs are the best.
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Welcome! And NOD doesn't think MARVs are the best, but that's probably because they're busy trying not to become roadkill. :D

Regarding power, it's more that we're trying to keep ahead of power issues so as not to have to spend a turn doing power-neutral actions while we rebuild the surplus. (Which I don't see as too much of a problem, but I understand the people who do.)
 
Lightwhispers said:
Regarding power, it's more that we're trying to keep ahead of power issues so as not to have to spend a turn doing power-neutral actions while we rebuild the surplus. (Which I don't see as too much of a problem, but I understand the people who do.)
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IMO the problem with power isn't that we risk running out. We can build more power plants in the same turn we use them. The problem is that the more Energy-costing projects we take, the more our Heavy Industry section has to spend all its dice on power instead of all the other things in Heavy Industry. (Like several Capital Goods factories, for example.) We need to balance things out so we can do things in HI besides just building more power constantly.

E: Several small fixes made to the Probability Array, thanks to @Lightwhispers. In particular, Military last had a security review 8 quarters ago, not 6.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
Voting closes in two hours, there's a whole lot of people who either don't or can't check the thread often enough to keep up with the minute-to-minute discussion, and it's a very common practice to vote for something and then not check the thread until you see an update in your notifications/new threadmarks. I happen to be really active in this specific quest and can keep up with the discussion but there's plenty I follow that I'm less invested in, and my job involves a lot of outdoorsy stuff so there's times when I'm in the middle of the woods for days on end and incapable of checking internet forums even if I wanted to.

If I voted for Plan X on the basis of it having Thing A, and returned after a weekend in the woods to find that Plan X was edited the day after I left to entirely get rid of Thing A and replace it with Thing B I have no interest in, that would be a dick move that abused my previous vote and inability to keep up with the thread or change it. Unless it's early on and a plan hasn't racked up dozens of votes I think it's unfair to people who don't obsessively keep up with the discussion to just change their votes by fiat instead of making a new variant with the things you want changed.
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Yeah, changing the winning plan shortly before the vote changes is a dick move, but the discussion took place a few hours ago, several hours before the vote was to close so that isn't relevant.

And again, a plan shouldn't be a fixed in stone suicide pack. A plan should be updated to reflect changes in information and if discussion between uncovers new information or the QM reveals new stuff, then a planmaker should update their plan to reflect the change in situation. It hasn't really been an issue in this specific situation, but as an example, I've had one quest where I and the rest of the thread was planning to delay an action for a turn only for the QM to tell us mid-vote that if we didn't take that action this turn, we would be risking a probably game over. So the winning plan was updated to reflect that information to avoid the potential game over and due to limited dice, a highly desired action got delayed a turn. In that situation, if the plan hadn't been updated because because it would mean dropping an action that some voters wanted, we would have a more likely than not chance of game over due to getting a bad ending.

So yes, the planmaker should be able to change their plan as new information comes to light and frankly, the idea that people make fire and forget votes means it is more important for a planmaker to update their plan as needed. This is because if those voters aren't going to checking the thread again, whether it is because they are unable or they don't care enough to be bother, they can't be counted upon to vote for a new plan that reflects the changed situation. And if the poster really cared enough to be bothered by changes to the plan, they would keep up with the thread and any changes to the plan. As for those who are literally unable to keep up, that sucks, but that inability to keep up shouldn't translate into a collar around the necks of any planmakers.
 
Long story short, changing a plan mid-vote is ultimately up to the planmaker. The planmaker needs to keep in mind the trust that the voters have put in them, and whether the voters believe that any proposed changes are fulfilling or betraying that trust.

If the changes or lack of changes fulfill that trust, voters will be more willing to vote for that planmaker's plans in the future. If the changes or lack of changes betray that trust, voters will be less willing to vote for that planmaker's plans in the future.
 
Rakuhn said:
Long story short, changing a plan mid-vote is ultimately up to the planmaker. The planmaker needs to keep in mind the trust that the voters have put in them, and whether the voters believe that any proposed changes are fulfilling or betraying that trust.

If the changes or lack of changes fulfill that trust, voters will be more willing to vote for that planmaker's plans in the future. If the changes or lack of changes betray that trust, voters will be less willing to vote for that planmaker's plans in the future.
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Pretty much. A plan shouldn't be changed lightly, but the planmaker should have that option open to them, especially if new information comes to light that makes previous choices outdated and the reasoning behind the previous plan outdated.
 
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Vote closed
  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by Ithillid on Jul 6, 2021 at 3:06 PM, finished with 170 posts and 65 votes.
    • [X] Plan Yellow Skies
      -[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1), 3 dice (30 Resources)
      -[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1), 1 dice (15 Resources)
      -[X] Fiber-Optic Expansion, 1 die (20 Resources)
      -[X] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns, 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Fusion Power Prototype, 1 die (20 Resources)
      -[X] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 2), 3 dice (15 Resources)
      -[X] Union Class Construction Yard, 2 die (40 Resources)
      -[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors, 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Bulk Plastics Facilities, 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Security Review, 1 die
      -[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays, 2 dice (20 Resources)
      -[X] Vertical Farming projects, 1 die (15 Resources)
      -[X] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 2), 2 dice (30 Resources)
      -[X] Chicago Planned City (Phase 1), 1 die (20 Resources)
      -[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1), 2 dice (2 Fusion) (40 Resources)
      -[X] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2), 1 die (15 Resources)
      -[X] Scrin Research Institutions, 3 dice (90 Resources)
      -[X] Childcare and Preschool programs, 1 die (5 Resources)
      -[X] Super MARV Reclaimator Fleet (RZ-6 South), 3 dice (60 Resources)
      -[X] Toronto Apollo Fighter Factory, 1 die (15 Resources)
      -[X] Shell Plants (Phase 3), 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Ablat Plating Development, 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Advanced Myomer Works, 2 dice (20 Resources)
      -[X] Security Reviews (LCI), 3 dice
      [X] Plan Power, Military and Consumer Goods
      -[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1) 0/200 1 dice 10 R 0%
      -[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 304/450 2 dice 30 R 45%
      -[X] Fiber-Optic Expansion 82/240 2 dice 40 R 34%
      -[X] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns (Phase 2) 247/550 2 dice 20 R 0%
      -[X] Fusion Power Prototype 45/200 2 dice 40 R 42%
      -[X] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 2) 101/275 4 dice 20 R 96%
      -[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors 116/400 2 dice 20 R 0%
      -[X] Bulk Plastics Facilities 91/200 1 dice 10 R 19%
      -[X] Security Review 1 dice
      -[X] Vertical Farming projects 227/250 1 dice 15 R 99%
      -[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays 0/300 2 dice 20 R 0%
      -[X] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 3) 273/400 3 dice 45 R 99%
      -[X] Chicago Planned City (Phase 1) 0/80 2 dice 40 R 99%
      -[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1) 59/90 1 fusion dice 20 R 97%
      -[X] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2) 108/135 1 fusion dice 10 R 100%
      -[X] Orbital Cleanup (Phase 3) 1/90 1 dice 15 R 39%
      -[X] Scrin Research Institutions 65/350 2 dice 60 R 0%
      -[X] Childcare and Preschool programs 155/200 1 dice 5 R 98%
      -[X] Game Development Studios 0/300 1 dice 5 R 0%
      -[X] Reclamator Fleet RZ 6 South (Super MARVs) 0/210 3 dice 60 R 45%
      -[X] Apollo Fighter Factories (Toronto) 18/70 1 dice 15 R 76%
      -[X] Shell Plants (Phase 3) 120/150 1 dice 10 R 98%
      -[X] Ablat Plating Development 0/70 1 dice 10 R 58%
      -[X] Security Review (LC) 3 dice +1 LC 100%
      [X] Plan Green is Not Tiberium
      -[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1) 0/200 1 die 10R 0%
      -[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1), 2 dice (30 Resources), 0%
      -[X] Fiber-Optic Expansion, 2 dice (40 Resources), 34%
      -[X] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns (Phase 2), 1 die (10 Resources), 0%
      -[X] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 2), 3 dice (15 Resources), 77%
      -[X] Fusion Power Prototype, 1 die (20 Resources), 0%
      -[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors 116/400 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Bulk Plastics Facilities, 1 die (10 Resources), 19%
      -[X] 1 die locked for security
      -[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays, 3 dice (30 Resources), 0%
      -[X] Vertical Farming projects, 1 die (15 Resources), 100%
      -[X] Entari Deployment 0/200 3 dice (60 Resources) 52%
      -[X] Spider Cotton Development 0/40 1 die 20 Resources 88%
      -[X] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 2), 2 dice (30 Resources), 87%
      -[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1), 1 die (1 Fusion) (20 Resources), 97%
      -[X] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2), 1 die (1 Fusion) (10 Resources), 100%
      -[X] Orbital Cleanup (Phase 3), 1 die (15 Resources), 39%
      -[X] Scrin Research Institutions, 3 dice (90 Resources), 24%
      -[X] Childcare and Preschool programs, 1 die (5 Resources), 98%
      -[X] Super MARV Reclaimator Fleet (RZ-6 South), 3 dice (60 Resources), 45%
      -[X] Shell Plants (Phase 3), 1 die (10 Resources), 98%
      -[X] Ablat Plating Development, 1 die (10 Resources), 58%
      -[X] Security Reviews (LCI), 3 dice
      [X]Plan Unionizing
      -[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1) 0/200 3 dice 30R 52.25%
      -[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 304/450 2 dice 30 R 45%
      -[X] Fusion Power Prototype 45/200 2 dice 40 R 42%
      -[X] Union Class Construction Yard 0/180 3 dice 60R 73%
      -[X] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 2) 101/275 1 die 5R
      -[X] Bulk Plastics Facilities 91/200 2 dice 20R 77%
      -[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors 116/400 1 die 10R
      -[X] Security Review, 1 die
      -[X] Entari Deployment 0/200 2 dice 40R 8%
      -[X] Vertical Farming projects 227/250 1 die 15R 100%
      -[X] Chicago Planned City (Phase 1) 0/80 1 Tib die 20R 66%
      -[X] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 3) 273/400 2 dice 30R 87.25%
      -[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1) 59/90 1 die 20R 97%
      -[X] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2) 108/135 1 die 10R 100%
      -[X] Orbital Cleanup (Phase 3) 1/90 1 die 15R 39%
      -[X] Scrin Research Institutions 65/350 2 dice 60R
      -[X] Game Development Studios 0/300 1 die 5R
      -[X] Childcare and Preschool programs 155/200 1 die 5R 98%
      -[X] Super MARVs RZ 6 South 0/210 3 dice 60R 45%
      -[X] Orca Refit Package Development 0/40 1 die 15R 88%
      -[X] Shell Plants (Phase 3) 120/150 1 die 10R 98%
      -[X] Advanced Myomer Works 0/125 2 dice 20R 55%
      -[X] Security Reviews:LCI DC60 2 dice 98%
      -[X] Interdepartmental Communication Initiative DC 90 2 dice 88%
      [X] Plan Yellow Skies, Blue Power
      [X] Plan There Are Developments In Our Future
      -[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1) 3 dice 30R 52%
      -[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 1 die 15R 0%
      -[X] Fiber-Optic Expansion 1 dice 20R 0%
      -[X] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns (Phase 2) 4 dice 40R 25%
      -[X] Fusion Power Prototype 1 die 20R 0%
      -[X] Union Class Construction Yard 1 free die 20R 0%
      -[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors 1 die 10R 0%
      -[X] Bulk Plastics Facilities 1 dice + 1 free die 20R 77%
      -[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays 1 die 10R 0%
      -[X] Vertical Farming projects 1 die 15R 100%
      -[X] Entari Deployment 1 die 20R 0%
      -[X]Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 3) 2 dice 30R 87%
      -[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1) 2 fusion die 40R 97%
      -[X] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2) 1 die 15R 100%
      -[X] Scrin Research Institutions 2 die 60R 0%
      -[X] Childcare and Preschool programs 1 die 5R 98%
      -[X] Fashion development houses 1 die 10R 0%
      -[X] Reclamator Fleet RZ-6 South
      --[X] Super MARVs 3 dice 60R 45%
      -[X] Apollo Fighter Factories
      --[X] Toronto 1 die 15R 76%
      -[X] Orca Refit Package Development 1 free die 15R 88%
      -[X] Remote Weapons System Development Predator 1 free die 10R 88%
      -[X] Shell Plants (Phase 3) 1 free die 10R 98%
      -[X] Ablat Plating Development 1 free die 10R 58%
      -[X] Security Reviews (Light and Chemical Industry) 3 dice + 1 LCI die
      [X] Powerplants for expansion
      [X] Plan Power Up Before You Power Walk
      [X] Rebuilding The Machine part 1
      [X] Rebuilding The Machine part 1
      -[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 304/450 2 dice 30 R 45%
      -[X] Fiber-Optic Expansion 82/240 2 dice 40 R 34%
      -[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1) 0/200 1 die 10R 0%
      -[X] North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 4) 64/1200 10 dice 150R 0.01%
      -[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors 116/400 1 die 10R 0%
      -[X] Superconductor Foundries 0/200 2 dice 60R 8%
      -[X] Vertical Farming projects 227/250 1 dice 15R 100% (10% omake used)
      -[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays 0/300 2 dice 20 R 0%
      -[X] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 3) 273/400 2 dice 30R 87%
      -[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1) 59/90 1 fusion die 20R 97% (15% omake used)
      -[X] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2) 108/135 1 fusion die 10R 100% (14% omake used)
      -[X] Game Development Studios 0/300 3 dice 15R 16%
      -[X] Childcare and Preschool programs 155/200 1 die 5R 98% (15% omake used)
      -[X] Reclamator Hub Yellow Zone 5a Progress 66/105 1 die 20R 89% (15% omake used)
      -[X] Reclamator Fleet RZ 6 South (Super MARVs) 0/210 3 dice 60 R 45%
      -[X] Shell Plants (Phase 3) 120/150 1 die 10R 98% (15% omake used)
      [X] Plan Blue union
      -[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1), 2 dice (20 Resources)
      -[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1), 2 dice (30 Resources)
      -[X] Fiber-Optic Expansion, 1 die (20 Resources)
      -[X] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns (Phase 2) 246/550 3 dice 30R
      -[X] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 2), 2 dice (10 Resources)
      -[X] Union Class Construction Yard, 2 die (40 Resources)
      -[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors, 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Bulk Plastics Facilities, 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Security Review, 1 die
      -[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays, 2 dice (20 Resources)
      -[X] Vertical Farming projects, 1 die (15 Resources)
      -[X] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 2), 2 dice (30 Resources)
      -[X] Chicago Planned City (Phase 1), 1 die (20 Resources)
      -[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1), 2 dice (2 Fusion) (40 Resources)
      -[X] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2), 1 die (15 Resources)
      -[X] Scrin Research Institutions, 3 dice (90 Resources)
      -[X] Childcare and Preschool programs, 1 die (5 Resources)
      -[X] Super MARV Reclaimator Fleet (RZ-6 South), 3 dice (60 Resources)
      -[X] Toronto Apollo Fighter Factory, 1 die (15 Resources)
      -[X] Shell Plants (Phase 3), 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Ablat Plating Development, 1 die (10 Resources)
      -[X] Advanced Myomer Works, 2 dice (20 Resources)
      -[X] Security Reviews (LCI), 3 dice
    Click to expand...
    Ithillid threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Tidal Power Plants Total: 121
    28 28 90 90 3 3
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Blue zone arcologies Total: 80
    80 80
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Fiber Optic Expansion Total: 11
    11 11
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Blue zone power production Total: 84
    84 84
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Fusion power prototype Total: 64
    64 64
    Ithillid threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Union Class Construction Yard Total: 107
    26 26 81 81
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Yellow Zone Light Industrial Total: 45
    45 45
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Bulk Plastics Total: 23
    23 23
    Ithillid threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Perennial Aquaponics Total: 82
    9 9 73 73
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Vertical Farming Total: 76
    76 76
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Chicago Planned City Total: 11
    11 11
    Ithillid threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: GDSS Philadelphia 2 Total: 99
    87 87 12 12
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Expand Orbital Communication Total: 28
    28 28
    Ithillid threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Scrin Research Total: 203
    52 52 93 93 58 58
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Childcare and Preschool Total: 86
    86 86
    Ithillid threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Super MARVs Total: 100
    40 40 48 48 12 12
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Toronto Apollo Fighter Factory Total: 54
    54 54
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Shell Plants Total: 11
    11 11
    Ithillid threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Ablat Plating Development Total: 86
    86 86
    Ithillid threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Advanced Myomer Works Total: 118
    45 45 73 73
    Ithillid threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Security Review LCI Total: 147
    69 69 4 4 74 74
    Ithillid threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Blue Zone Perimeter fencing Total: 91
    65 65 26 26
    Ithillid threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Yellow Zone Power Grid Total: 200
    76 76 32 32 92 92
     
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