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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Image said:
I mean there are scrin 'mothership' class vessel around. Those probably had something.
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Oh yeah, but reverse-engineering Scrin space drives is going to be a decades-long task, I suspect.

Something like an ion drive or a nuclear thermal rocket is much more near-term feasible.

And our existing fusion rockets CLEARLY operate on principles broadly compatible with continuous acceleration, or at least very high delta-V budgets that would free us from the tyranny of transfer windows and let us fly cargoes to the planets in timescales measured in weeks rather than months or months rather than years.

But the existing fusion heavy-lift vehicles are apparently not suitable for deep space operation, probably because of maintenance requirements.
 
Image said:
I mean there are scrin 'mothership' class vessel around. Those probably had something.
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The Scrin Motherships don't just have something. They have something that can actually reach significant c-fractional velocities and then slow down from them very rapidly. Sadly, I don't think we're getting those any time soon. And even if we did, the costs of prototype development and later on widespread deployment is likely to be... extreme.
 
When it comes to something like that, any development will be iterative, rather than all at once. To put in general terms
-Primitive Prototype M1
-Prototype M1
-Standard M1
and then repeat for every gravity of acceleration you want to get. (M being Traveller code for a particular type of engine)
 
sunrise said:
The first of those I think should be the asteroid belt and the second Europa the moon of Jupiter as there might be liquid water there making it a good spot for a base.
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For the next mission target, I am thinking Venus, since it's pretty close, and also is the planet other than Earth which is most conducive to Tiberium growth if the Scrin did seed another planet. And while we won't meet the launch window for unpowered transfers, even with basic drive modules it will be a 2-turn transfer, which is pretty good.

That said, we also got the development plans for comsat constellations for Earth and Luna, so there will be a bunch of assembly going on for that, as well as any needed for the Leopard modification. And also plans for a research base...
 
Speaking from the Treasury side of the equation I think the next time we drop a decade's budget in your lap it'll probably be for the main asteroid belt, Venus/Mercury/the inner system asteroids are on the list after that because of how infeasible the outer planets are to mine on a reasonable timeframe right now but the Belt is more accessible than the Venereal/Mercurial surface if we're looking for industrial metals. Dunno if that means CarterQuest wants to throw some science missions at Venus before the next overriding industrial imperative comes through or if you want to get a head start on the Belt but that's my thinking.

(Also lol I recently learned that the proper adjective for describing Venus is Venereal so be careful not to get anything nasty on your probes, I think the military has some standard issue pamphlets about that)
 
Ummmm... why are we mucking around with ion engines?

This is GDI and Earth is already a radioactive wasteland.

Ground launch some Orions.

Or at least re-task an orbital ion cannon for spacecraft propulsion.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
(Also lol I recently learned that the proper adjective for describing Venus is Venereal so be careful not to get anything nasty on your probes, I think the military has some standard issue pamphlets about that)
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Venus was a goddess of beauty and love. Why do you think venereal diseases are called venereal diseases?

CyberEnby said:
Ummmm... why are we mucking around with ion engines?

This is GDI and Earth is already a radioactive wasteland.

Ground launch some Orions.

Or at least re-task an orbital ion cannon for spacecraft propulsion.
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Because Orions won't fly, politically, and ion cannons are not known for being efficient propulsion methods. Blowing spacecraft up? Sure. Propulsion? No.
 
CyberEnby said:
Ummmm... why are we mucking around with ion engines?

This is GDI and Earth is already a radioactive wasteland.

Ground launch some Orions.

Or at least re-task an orbital ion cannon for spacecraft propulsion.
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For solar system-scale propulsion, you want consistent thrust, with the priority on sustained propusion, not on burst output. Ion engines are very good at that.

And no, Earth is not a radioactive wasteland. Much of it is a a Tiberium-covered wasteland, but the reasons to not want to use Orion-drive start with "we have better options", and continue on to "we don't want to irradiate Blue Zones.
 
CyberEnby said:
Ummmm... why are we mucking around with ion engines?

This is GDI and Earth is already a radioactive wasteland.

Ground launch some Orions.

Or at least re-task an orbital ion cannon for spacecraft propulsion.
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Shard of Victory said:
Actually, why wouldn't they? There is no nuclear taboo.
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First of all, one of the big things behind why GDI is so known for using Ion Cannons is that in a... Well, a PR move back around the 1st Tiberium War, GDI vowed not to use nuclear weapons. Now, Orion drives aren't nuclear weapons... But they're basically a nuclear warhead that isn't being used as a weapon. So that's likely a major stumbling block right there.

The existence of the Scrin and the fact that we're developing fusion technology might very well lead to us developing pure fusion nuclear warheads which could be a way to work around that ban admittedly. But that just makes things more expensive, both in the propulsion warhead construction and also developing the technology from whereever it is currently. That's not the actual problem right now though.

The biggest problem with Orion drives right now is that the current warheads needed to propel them consume weapons grade fissionable materials. And right now, we're suffering a severe lack in the ability to produce enough reactor grade fissionables, being barely able to fully stock our new powerplants. With future power expansion developments seeing large increases in the cost and amount of progress needed due to the need to expand our abilities to acquire and then enrich to the appropriate grades the fissionables to fuel those new powerplants.

And we're suffering such an energy crunch to power everything needed to fulfil our plan goals that, well... I wouldn't be surprised if the bureaucrats responsible for the consumer goods planning, let alone the military, capital goods or other industries, would stab anyone suggesting to divert existing or new fissionable enrichment production towards Orion drives. Before the whole 'GDI swore off nukes' political hot potato is brought up.
 
The times when Orion would be useful are things like the Evacuation route, where you are trying to build an orbital civilization yesterday. If you end up with a mandate to do that, Orion will become an option. Short of that, it is unlikely, because you don't need to pay the environmental and human costs of the system.
 
CyberEnby said:
Ummmm... why are we mucking around with ion engines?
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Because they are reasonably compact if you're trying to fit them inside a space probe that weighs approximately as much as a car, or less.

This is GDI and Earth is already a radioactive wasteland.

Ground launch some Orions.
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If you want your Orion to actually work and not, say, go ass over teakettle and scatter nuclear bombs all over the landscape for Nod to pick up, then Orion involves a very long teething phase in which you do development. By the time you have Orion drive suitable for ground launch, you could have built a lot of more conventional space launch infrastructure (e.g. fusion rocket heavy lift).

Or at least re-task an orbital ion cannon for spacecraft propulsion.
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This is a much more reasonable suggestion. A heavily modified ion cannon should, plausibly, be able to be used to help propel a magnetic sail. Though you're basically turning it from an ion cannon into more of an ion garden hose.
 
Lightwhispers said:
For the next mission target, I am thinking Venus, since it's pretty close, and also is the planet other than Earth which is most conducive to Tiberium growth if the Scrin did seed another planet. And while we won't meet the launch window for unpowered transfers, even with basic drive modules it will be a 2-turn transfer, which is pretty good.

That said, we also got the development plans for comsat constellations for Earth and Luna, so there will be a bunch of assembly going on for that, as well as any needed for the Leopard modification. And also plans for a research base...
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I would be very interested if any space agency tracked the initial Tiberium rock land fall on earth. Just to see if they noticed any other planets that mess may have intersected. I can't think of few worst things then Tiberium growing on another planet in this system. The Scrin are aware of us and I'd hate for them to have a bigger reason to come knocking.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
This is a much more reasonable suggestion. A heavily modified ion cannon should, plausibly, be able to be used to help propel a magnetic sail. Though you're basically turning it from an ion cannon into more of an ion garden hose.
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Beamed propulsion also lets you get around the rocket equation, and allows you to secure one of, if not the most dangerous part of a high performance spacecraft.
I've honestly begun to think that self propelled spacecraft are kind of a dead end in terms of transport around an industrialized star system because beamed options tend to be a lot more effective performance wise. (Not accounting for setting specific options like... whatever the Scrin use.)

Edit: IDK what the status of Kilimanjaro is, but a mass driver located there would be pretty good for bulk space launch.
 
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CyberEnby said:
Edit: IDK what the status of Kilimanjaro is, but a mass driver located there would be pretty good for bulk space launch.
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Looks like it's Yellow Zone, possibly Red because of RZ growth. So, unlikely to be particularly worthwhile.
What will be useful is building the Union factory, because Ithillid has said that a few years after that is built, we will probably have enough built that the Fusion Die mechanic will be phased out in favor of a flat discount.

Beamed propulsion may be quite useful, whether ion beams or lasers, but we're also likely to just set up loops of cargo-carriers in elliptical orbits, to handle inter-orbit transport.

Of course, once(if) we get M-drives, which are effectively reactionless (they work by interacting with the local star's gravity well), everything changes.
 
Speaking on the subject of nuclear, what do y'all think about fission fragment reactors?

We might not use them for space travel because we already have the promise of fusion drives, but down here it might be nice as an intermediate upgrade from our current reactor design to baseline fusion plants.
 
TripleTango said:
Speaking on the subject of nuclear, what do y'all think about fission fragment reactors?

We might not use them for space travel because we already have the promise of fusion drives, but down here it might be nice as an intermediate upgrade from our current reactor design to baseline fusion plants.
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We literally just started a fusion prototype. With enough dice and a bit of luck we could have practical fusion in a year. If I remember correctly it went Fusion Prototype -> Peaker Plant -> Practical Fusion or something like that.
 
Scarecrow said:
We literally just started a fusion prototype. With enough dice and a bit of luck we could have practical fusion in a year. If I remember correctly it went Fusion Prototype -> Peaker Plant -> Practical Fusion or something like that.
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Umm...
Ithillid said:
Prototype will lead into peaker plants, synchronized cycle fusion, fusion power plants, and then adds fusion directly to the power production campaigns, drastically cutting the costs.
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Ithillid said:
Separate projects.
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So 3-4 projects to practical fusion plants, anywhere from 90 to 500 progress each, and no dice spillover.

I don't buy fusion in a year. Unless we do nothing but rushing fusion and hold off on Boston 4--and we need those cap goods, too.

@Ithillid, would there be synergies with fusion projects and Superconducter Foundries?
 
So, possible plan for next turn based on getting the Union Construction Yard built for our third Fusion die, starting work on Chicago, finishing Philly Phase 1, and getting near completion for research projects. It does have a 7% chance of going into negatives on Energy, but should be okay.

Plan Unionizing
Infrastructure 5 dice +12 4/5
-[] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 304/450 2 dice 30R 45%
-[] Fiber-Optic Expansion 82/240 2 dice 30R 34%
Heavy Industry 5 dice +15 8/5
-[] Fusion Power Prototype 45/200 2 dice 40R 42%
-[] Union Class Construction Yard 0/180 3 dice 60R 73%
-[] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 2) 101/275 3 dice 15R 77%
Light and Chemical Industry 3 dice +12 3/3
-[] Bulk Plastics Facilities 91/200 2 dice 20R 77%
-[] Security Review 1 die
Agriculture 3 dice +12 2/3
-[] State Operated Breweries 0/125 1 die 10R 3%
-[] Vertical Farming projects 227/250 1 die 15R 100%
Tiberium 5 dice +30 4/5
-[] Chicago Planned City (Phase 1) 0/80 2 Tib dice 40R 98%
-[] Blue Zone Perimeter Fencing (Phase 3) 273/400 2 dice 30R 87.25%
Orbital Industry 3 dice +12 3/3
-[] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1) 59/90 1 die 20R 97%
-[] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2) 108/135 1 die 10R 100%
-[] Orbital Cleanup (Phase 3) 1/90 1 die 15R 39%
Services 4 dice +27 4/4
-[] Scrin Research Institutions 65/350 3 dice 90R 24%
-[] Childcare and Preschool programs 155/200 1 die 5R 98%
Military 5 dice +12 7/5
-[] Super MARVs RZ 6 South 0/210 3 dice 60R 45%
-[] Apollo Fighter Factories Toronto 18/70 1 die 15R 76%
-[] Shell Plants (Phase 3) 120/150 1 die 10R 98%
-[] Advanced Myomer Works 0/125 2 dice 20R 55%
Bureaucracy 3 dice +12
-[] Security Reviews:LCI DC60 3 dice

520/520 (490+30R)
5/5 Free Dice
 
Ithillid said:
Not at the smaller scales, but at the higher scales there would be.
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With that in mind, here's what a fusion plan might look like:

[]Plan Draft Fusion All In
-[]Infrastructure 5/5 85R
--[] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 304/450 3 dice 45R 87%
--[] Fiber-Optic Expansion 82/240 2 dice 40R 34%
-[]Heavy Industry 5/5 + 3 95R
--[] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns (Phase 2) 246/1000? 2 dice 20R
--[] Fusion Power Prototype 45/200 3 dice 60R 87%
--[] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 2) 101/275 3 dice 15R 77%
-[]Light & Chemical Industry 3/3 + 2 110R
--[] Bulk Plastics Facilities 91/200 2 dice 20R 77%
--[] Superconductor Foundries 0/200 3 dice 90R 52%
-[]Agriculture 1/3 15R
--[] Vertical Farming projects 227/250 1 die 15R 100% (10% omake used)
-[]Tiberium 2/5 50R
--[] Red Zone Containment Lines (Phase 3) 8/180 2 dice 50R 54%
-[]Orbital 3/3 2/2 F 45R
--[] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 2) 108/135 1 die 10R+ 100%
--[] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 1) 59/90 1 die 20R+ 97%
--[] Orbital Cleanup (Phase 2) 58/90 1 die 15R 96%
-[]Services 2/4 35R
--[] Scrin Research Institutions 65/350 1 dice 30R
--[] Childcare and Preschool programs 155/200 1 die 5R 98%
-[]Military 5/5 80R
--[] Shell Plants (Phase 3) 120/150 1 die 10R 98% (15% omake used)
--[] Super MARV Reclaimater Fleet (RZ-6 South) 0/210 2 3 dice 60R 45%
--[] Remote Weapons System Development Predator 0/40 1 die 10R 88%
-[]Bureaucracy
--[]Security Reviews
---[]LCI, 3 dice

5/5 Free dice

490/490 + 25

The main idea is to have the Prototype done this quarter, and Superconductors ready for the later stages.

The main problem is time. We'd be spending 4 or more quarters on Fusion power, and another 4 or 5 power-walking Boston 4, with our other priorities on the backburner. It's great setup but it's 8-10 quarters out of our remaining 11 for this 4 Year Plan.

EDIT: Reaccounted for Fiber Optics being 20R per dice.
 
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sunrise said:
These dice are 20R each I would also spread the Scrin Research Institutions over more turns and do only 2 dice on Union Class Construction Yard in the first turn leaving a dice for the next power production campaign.
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The point of this plan is to get those projects to have a chance of completion this (next) turn. While putting dice into the next BZ power production campaign would be useful, diversifying power and network access sooner also has significant benefits. Such as not appearing like it's a blatant vote grab. Completing all the projects in this plan will leave us at +1 Energy, which does mean we'll have to do a major Energy push Q3, but we do have a bunch of projects that don't require Energy.
Because Union Construction and Scrin Research are all projects which will provide benefits that increase over time, or unlock after a certain time. Better to get them completed sooner.
 
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