Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

[MightbeaMimic]

Personally I'm of the opinion that CRP is always going to taste like crap. True, with a lot of work and the right techs our scientists might develop a way of making it taste of milder crap but it is what it is

I also don't really care about this as long as we only do the E-CRP. Chances are the only people who ever eat it are testers for the aforementioned scientists and new guys at the stockpiles getting hazed (although making them eat CRP is truly inhumane)

Frankly, if we ever have normal citizens eating this then something has gone terribly wrong somewhere, so the taste is the least of our worries. As for doing Agri-CRP to open it up to the general public I honestly don't see the point. We have far better ways of getting food and I doubt that's gonna change any time soon. There's no point rolling out CRP just so it can sit on the shelves because even in an empty store people aren't willing to take it. We have enough food

 

[mmgaballah]

Basically allowing you to fab things up a molecule at a time.

Click to shrink...

would that allow us to bypass some of our STU battle necks through production methods that reduce the need for or a means of producing STU material without needing vast amounts of tiberium though at massive initial costs as we would be effectively producing ingots of STU one monocle at a time

 

[HousePet]

I understood that Parliament's objection to the CRP to be that it looked like we were going to fill the stores with CRP sourced food over more palatable options.
If that is correct, then the main PS cost on them only really exists for this Plan.
Should they ask for a much larger stockpile to be created next Plan, then they should be accepting that there will be some food being stockpiled that is for the absolute worst case scenario, in which case CRP is better than starvation. Although we should still attempt to exhaust all the better stored food options first.

 

[Hazard]

would that allow us to bypass some of our STU battle necks through production methods that reduce the need for or a means of producing STU material without needing vast amounts of tiberium though at massive initial costs as we would be effectively producing ingots of STU one monocle at a time

Click to shrink...

No, because the issue is that we don't have enough STUs, and tiberium refinement is the best way we've got to produce STUs. If we want to produce STUs without tiberium, our best bet is large numbers particle accelerators smashing the right atoms together, and frankly, it won't be worth the cost in comparison to just chowing down on more tib and processing it.

I understood that Parliament's objection to the CRP to be that it looked like we were going to fill the stores with CRP sourced food over more palatable options.
If that is correct, then the main PS cost on them only really exists for this Plan.
Should they ask for a much larger stockpile to be created next Plan, then they should be accepting that there will be some food being stockpiled that is for the absolute worst case scenario, in which case CRP is better than starvation. Although we should still attempt to exhaust all the better stored food options first.

Click to shrink...

Sort of yes, but mostly no.

While part of the motivation behind the large food reserves is generational trauma, that does mean that if we do not fulfill the Food Reserves goal in a proper manner Parliament is likely to force us to do more Food Reserves next Plan anyway.

And Parliament does accept that CRaP is better than nothing at all, if we finish up with a couple of phases of CRaP Parliament won't be happy but, you know, CRaP beats starvation. It's just that CRaP is, well, very crap, the sort of food that you may refuse to eat even though starvation will kill you, and so Parliament's preference for Food Reserves is stuff that doesn't taste of moldy gym shorts, and wants us to fill the storage buildings with those before we start pointing at CRaP for absolute emergency use.

Especially since we also have the Fungus Ration Bar, which use almost the same feedstock, but has a less offensive taste.

 

[BoSPaladin]

Omake: Backroom meetings

"Good we're all here." Representative Lawrence addressed the room. The initiative Firster and Free market party member noticeably sat close together, while the representatives from other parties mostly ignored the pair and chatted amongst themselves. The small group having at least one individual from each of the major parties. Primarily from the pacific bluezones a majority of their members were either American or of Asian, or specifically Japanese descent, more than a few having shared ancestry. And fortunately, or unfortunately for Lawrence's ability to control them a number were close colleagues, some he even considered friends.

"What are they here for?" Representative Bertisson snapped angrily, pointing. "I thought you had something to actually offer. But really? The UYL? The socialists?!" He sneered.

"Kyle is it?" Lawrence asked calmly eyeing the young firebrand politician. A newcomer to their group and the only Initiative first member willing to attend the private meeting.

"Representative Bertisson." He stressed.

"Kyle, we're not in an official meeting here. And you might wish to recall I'm a market socialist myself. So if you shut up for five minutes you'll learn what this is about."

"What is it about Ernest? You mentioned a little to my PA about the next plans budget." Former Base commander Icari (now representative Icari) noted.

"I'm a member of parliament. You can't talk to me like that." Kyle muttered sulkily.

"Kid shut up." John Rodgers Representative from the Developmentalists snapped. "I skimmed the thing Ernest, you're worried about some kind of coup?" He asked concerned.

"What?!" The nervous looking spectacled man asked in shock. Judging by the pin on his lapel a member of the reclamation Party. A minor party all told, but tiberium abatement was a big enough issues that their voices were often heard at major votes and they helped draft much of the final legislation. "Are you guys planning a coup? I can't be part of a coup!"

"Just settle down Martin." Icari calmed him. "Ernest? Please share with the room."

"It just better not be another idealistic 'supermajority' coalition again. The Free Market party has seen how those tend to shut us out." Their representative put in snidely.

"In a sense." Ernest sighed earning several groans as John and others sighed and stood up to go. "Just five minutes. I'll explain what I have, and we can all take it back to our respective parties. But this, it goes beyond socialism vs capitalism, free market slash regulation paradigms. It's not an immediate concern but there's some troubling markers. I've sent a copy of my thesis to InOps for them to review."

"InOps?! What the fuck old man!?" Kyle yelled angrily.

"Kyle. Please." Icari stressed.

"Thank you Ami." Lawrence sighed. "It's just theory and speculation, but, it's something we need to bear in mind and get ahead of. I'm talking a political shift. From monarchistic systems to a parliamentarian one. Something that renders previous political compasses, the right-left divide, largely obsolete."

"What is?" John asked sharply. "You haven't explained what the problem is." He pointed out.

"Maybe if people would stop interrupting." Doctor Natsume pointed out.

"Right, okay. So. Everyone knows most of the economy is a shitshow right? At least compared to pre-war." He asked receiving nods around the room.

"It's recovering though right?" Martin asked, his statement phrased uncertainly. "I mean, we've got the glacier mining and large scale tiberium extraction. Sure the civilian economy isn't great but-"

"That is, in fact, precisely the problem." Lawrence sighed pointing a remote and bringing up a chart. "Compare the percentages of GDI's Gross domestic product. While the bulk of it is in resource extraction and a significant amount is made up of manufacturing, consumer spending and tax is a negligible part of the overall economy."

"But that's good right?" Yukino asked. "With plentiful natural resources funding the economy, taxes are low, while citizens get essential goods and services guaranteed by the state." A socialist through and through Lawrence thought wryly.

"Technically and perhaps more accurately Representative Yukino we should say that the tiberium extraction is funding the budget. The budget and the economy aren't necessarily one and the same. Prior to tib war three, GDI of course mined tiberium. However the consumer economy and its taxes made up a far greater portion of the budget."

"I'm not seeing the problem with lower taxes for blue zones." Kyle pointed out earning noises of disgust. Lawrence frowning but continuing to explain.

"The Problem. Is the wealth trap." Lawrence stated softly.

"Oh please." Jack scoffed. "Am I expected to sit here through some thinly veiled digs about corruption? The Free Market party is committed to stimulating the economy and raising living standards for everyone-"

"Humans are surplus to requirement." Lawrence blurted out shocking the room.

"Excuse me?!"

"Yellow. Green. Blue. Doesn't matter. Even blue zoners. Even us. We're politicians but we're not the government." Lawrence said talking rapidily. "Wealth extraction is like tourism. Good in small amounts, but basing your entire economy around it leads to side effects. In our case, the wealth trap. A phenomena wherin small and poor nations which hit natural resources but had little capital, extractive or manufacturing capacity of their own largely received aid to export the raw materials to the first world. Diamonds, oil, precious metals, rare earth materials, even tiberium."

"GDI isn't some hick yellow zone fortress ran by a maniac with a bunch of militia and buggies!" Kyle snapped angrily.

"No, GDI has the largest most powerful military in the world. But that's irrelevant. The problem is the same, worse even in some ways. If said dictator has a more powerful military at their command. A consumer economy relies upon educating the populace, service jobs, the financial sector, whatever it is, the bulk of the wealth- the real wealth that is comes from the labour of the people. People working factory jobs, or in support roles to keep manufacturing workers fed, and so on and so forth. Civilians provide much of the economy and so can enact change through strike action, which if their employers or government don't want to see much of their economy grind to a halt means they have to keep the civilian population happy. Along with a need for hospitals to keep the workers healthy and so on. But in an extraction economy the local warlord only needs to slap down a fort on a gold mine, grab a couple hundred soldiers and however many miners, and a dictator can control the bulk of the wealth of an entire nation of millions. Funnelling Millions or billions to themselves and a small group of supporters while the rest of the country languishes in poverty and see's little to no of that wealth."

"Skating by on the bare minimum for the civilians you mean?" John pointed out. "Those damn 'carbon ration packs'."

"Fuck Lawrence, you think-"

"Not yet. But, look at the automated factory's, GDI's military apparatus the tiberium economy. More and more, despite the governments move to reopen and expand parliament the bulk of GDI's economy is heading straight into the governmental budget while the civilian economy stalls, leaving people in poverty. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. What I am trying to do is highlight how currently, our democracy is in danger. If the director, the military high command, and the civil service make the choice. A very small number of figures in GDI could overnight take control of the bulk of the economy. And from economic control, stems political control. If a government isn't reliant upon the labour of the people to sustain itself, or can survive with only a small number of people. Then it doesn't need the consent of the governed- And don't smirk Jack. Think on this, You and the free Market party or initiative first very definitely won't be a part of this new world order. Just look at how the treasury has largely sidelined your own demands."

"The treasury does as parliament wills." The sole developmentalist in the room sighs tiredly. "Our party has been overall quite pleased with the work of the treasury as it stands."

"I'm not accusing them. Just saying, that, if for the sake of argument, the civilian economy is anemic and it seems to be more of a burden than a benefit, I could easily see some arguing, on the economic benefits for doing the minimum needed for the civilian populace. And, while not yet an issue. I'm highlighting historic trends. States with large and diverse economies that rely upon their citizens for taxes tend to be more democratic than those that produce and export valuable material resources. And I would hate to see a... culture form where doing the minimum is acceptable. That way leads... Technically humanity could survive with only a few thousand specimens. Less if using tissue samples. Afterall, a freezer of DNA and a few million families equal the same amount of genetic diversity, either would be plenty to complete the goal of saving the species. And one would be vastly cheaper of course."

"So the solution? Is there one?" Icari asked.

"Of course." Lawrence blinked. "Invest in the civilian economy, stimulate consumer spending. Show the bureaucratic apparatchik that the labour force isn't just a drain on the budget, and conversely could even generate revenue. And yes, for the militarists the preliminary budgets for the next plan include military factories, as they provide jobs and taxable income too. My argument is simply this. We place some roadblocks and delays in the way, we need more zone suits for safety, we need more refineries to cut down on logistics and transport. We would prefer inhibitors to more harvesters. As meanwhile, we invest in the civilian side of things, in order to limit the overreliance upon one sector of the economy and improve the consumer economy."

"That's it?" Icari asked feeling relief.

"That's it, and it's something we should all want. Better living conditions for our voters. But phrased to the civil service in a way as to grow the civilian economy. While at the same time... We're not stopping abatement. But we try to slow new mining projects in favour of newer technologies such as the inhibitors and sort out our refining logistics in order to cut down on transport losses to nod."

"The treasury won't like it." Yukino pointed out.

"That's kind of the point. The treasury wants to control the economy and to the number crunchers more tiberium mined is always good. But if the government can fund its operations and fund its operations without the input of most the population then there's always going to be someone who starts wondering if it wouldn't be more efficient to just cut welfare or even worse cut the public out of politics altogether. Frankly with how some officials have brushed off our freedom of information requests on the food stockpiles worrying signs are already there. It could be nothing, but extraction economies can have harmful side effects if the proceeds aren't put towards the diversification of the economy. It's like a pyramid. Any economy needs a strong and broad base. Put in those terms. I'm sure we'll be able to convince our parties to do something for the next plan."

 

[Crazycryodude]

I don't buy it, honestly. Tiberium is a heavy-handed metaphor for extraction economies killing the planet but it's not literally oil or gold, all the secondary and tertiary economic activity discussed straight up cannot exist without Tiberium mining. Every building you live or work in is made from Tiberium. The trains and buses you take between them are made from Tiberium. The clothes you made were spun on Tiberium-derived machines using Tiberium sourced feedstock, in a factory powered by a nuclear reactor built out of Tiberium based steel fueled with Tiberium based uranium. The food you eat was grown in a Tiberium based machine while being fed Tiberium based fertilizers. The GDI of 2060 is such that any economic activity of any sort is underlied by first mining and processing giant amounts of Tiberium.

Our currency is the Tiberium Industrial Credit, backed by Tiberium and pegged to the nominal industrial value of a given amount of Tiberium. Taxes are collected in Tiberium Industrial Credits, trade is done in Tiberium Industrial Credits, all the "money" and "taxes" are just an abstraction for, you guessed it, Tiberium based economic activity. The solution to the woes of the civilian economy is not to stop mining Tiberium, if we stop mining Tiberium nothing moves. You can push for a larger fraction of the value extracted from Tiberium to go to the private sector (in the form of capital goods built out of Tiberium and Resource grants representing Tiberium Industrial Credits) over the state sector, but choking off Tiberium mining expansion is choking off economic growth, period.

 

[Simon_Jester]

would that allow us to bypass some of our STU battle necks through production methods that reduce the need for or a means of producing STU material without needing vast amounts of tiberium though at massive initial costs as we would be effectively producing ingots of STU one monocle at a time

Click to shrink...

No, because it does not permit transmutation of the elements. STUs are entirely novel chemical elements, presumably elements known to be useful to whoever created tiberium, but not known to Earthly scientists circa 1990. Tiberium creates these elements in trace amounts, but without sophisticated refining processes, you can't get very much STUs out of tiberium.

It's just that without tiberium, you can't get any STUs at all. They do not, so far as we know, occur in nature.

The particle accelerator tech will not enable us to create STUs from scratch.

I understood that Parliament's objection to the CRP to be that it looked like we were going to fill the stores with CRP sourced food over more palatable options.
If that is correct, then the main PS cost on them only really exists for this Plan.
Should they ask for a much larger stockpile to be created next Plan, then they should be accepting that there will be some food being stockpiled that is for the absolute worst case scenario, in which case CRP is better than starvation. Although we should still attempt to exhaust all the better stored food options first.

Click to shrink...

A lot of things could happen.

Parliament might accept that once we've put, say, 10 Stored Food into storage as a show of good faith, and done so fast enough that it's credible that we intend to keep our promises properly... Well, at that point they might accept grudgingly that some CRP is okay. Maybe there will still be a -PS cost because the stuff is legitimately unpopular, but hopefully not as much cost.

Parliament might not hit this threshold until we've hit the full Stored Food target for this plan.

Or Parliament might never hit that threshold. Quite frankly, I think that if Parliament makes us wait until we hit the current Stored Food target, that Parliament will probably never come around and the cost of E-CRP will never drop to zero. Because at that point, it's no longer about whether we are planning to fill the stockpiles and have plans for good, normal food in them- it's just about them not wanting to rely on E-CRP, no matter what the opportunity costs are.

...

Click to shrink...

In all fairness, the main speaker there has a point.

At the same time, I wish someone had made the countervailing point more cogently.

...

Tiberium has utterly hollowed out the old world economy in most respects. Most of the old forms of manufacturing and material production, many of them far more labor-intensive than what we have now (in-quest), are obsolete or outright eaten by the green rocks.

Furthermore, GDI is forced by Nod to remain in a bunkered-down garrison state. Intercontinental trade is a weak echo of what it once was, menaced by pirates and Nod airstrikes. GDI likewise cannot trade meaningfully with Nod's territories, limiting its ability to form something like a First World service economy- because that economy was heavily predicated on free trade.

Many of the underpinnings of a service economy simply are not there.

And manufacturing jobs simply are not as labor-intensive as they used to be, because it's not the 20th century anymore. Production by hand-bolting parts together on an assembly line cannot compete with automated manufacturing. The jobs aren't coming back to 20th century levels.

The economy is not going to stop depending on automation and tiberium.

At the same time... We have the potential to transition to something very different and new. An economy that is, for practical purposes, something close to post-scarcity. An economy where machines do most of the material work and, importantly, the service sector's size is flexible. We could free ourselves from the tyranny of "who does not work, does not eat," because the material sustenance is so easy to come by, despite the greater per capita expenses of keeping people alive on the tiberian Earth.

...

The speakers seem to want to force a return back to a 2000-era economic model on a society that cannot sustain it. The social underpinnings aren't there, and the material underpinnings aren't there (as Cryo points out).

If they're worried about the prospect of those who control the tiberium and the automatic factories cutting everyone else out of the loop and leaving them to a miserable starving condition, that is a valid concern! But the answer is "improve civilian living conditions in general" and "make sure the people are firmly in control of the industrial sector, either personally or through the elected government as proxies."

Not "mine tiberium less, expand service sector economy more."

 

[Void Stalker]

At the same time... We have the potential to transition to something very different and new. An economy that is, for practical purposes, something close to post-scarcity. An economy where machines do most of the material work and, importantly, the service sector's size is flexible. We could free ourselves from the tyranny of "who does not work, does not eat," because the material sustenance is so easy to come by, despite the greater per capita expenses of keeping people alive on the tiberian Earth.

Click to shrink...

And in this case we already have had some of the disruption that would come with this hit so probably better to push forward instead of try to work backwards.

 

[Argent Citadel]

Omake: Backroom meetings

Click to shrink...

Compelling stuff. Loved it

 

[staplesdex2]

In universe, I feel personally attacked at that as I'm one of those lower peons working in the Treasury, with a background in economics. Out of universe, I that Omake is nice. Just wish it had more counter points to it to feel more complete.

 

[DecaffeinatedOwl]

In universe, I feel personally attacked at that as I'm one of those lower peons working in the Treasury, with a background in economics. Out of universe, I that Omake is nice. Just wish it had more counter points to it to feel more complete.

Click to shrink...

This, also I felt that including the Initiative First representative sorta taints the message?

Like, these guys demanded that Seo let himself be replaced with an IF stooge. They were already trying for a coup, in a fumbling and ineffectual way.

 

[BoSPaladin]

At the same time, I wish someone had made the countervailing point more cogently.

Click to shrink...

Partly deliberate on my end. Icari is former military in the militarists. Yukino was elected on a socialist platform and is a good campaign speaker. Kyle is initiative first and is also quite young. Trends more to online marketing campaigns than in person speeches on the campaign trail. John is a developmentalist with a tech background, does okay on the economics but lacks the same historical background as Lawrence. Martin from the reclamation party has a science background relating to tib. Jack is FMP and comes from a business background, but not a economics background. Etc etc.

Point being, Lawrence is the one with a history/ poli-sci background. they wouldn't necessarily be able to parse his data or his conclusions.

At the same time... We have the potential to transition to something very different and new. An economy that is, for practical purposes, something close to post-scarcity. An economy where machines do most of the material work and, importantly, the service sector's size is flexible. We could free ourselves from the tyranny of "who does not work, does not eat," because the material sustenance is so easy to come by, despite the greater per capita expenses of keeping people alive on the tiberian Earth.

Click to shrink...

Of course, the flip side to that, as history has sadly shown time and again. Is a recurring question of "Why feed the moochers?" Unfortunately selfishness not wanting others to get things for 'free' is common.


I make no claims to Lawrence drawing any correct conclusions. Not to say X Will Happen. But. X might be a growing risk. There's issues with most of our economy being tiberium based, and to a lesser degree having so much of it go into big ticket items while some pretty big holes for essentials are wide open.

He's not standing on a street corner screaming "The end is nigh." He's saying, "Here's our situation. Folks in a similiar situation had so and so happen. We should watch out for that, here's what we can do to reduce that risk. And in the meantime improve things for our constituents."

This, also I felt that including the Initiative First representative sorta taints the message?

Like, these guys demanded that Seo let himself be replaced with an IF stooge. They were already trying for a coup, in a fumbling and ineffectual way.

Click to shrink...

He's trying to be bipartisan. And, if he wants a budget/plan that invests more into the civilian economy.... Well it's a goal at least on paper shared by the IF... Or, at least they want more luxuries for blue zone citizens. But Lawrence is planning on channelling that into votes for 'more luxury goods, period'

 

[Simon_Jester]

This, also I felt that including the Initiative First representative sorta taints the message?

Like, these guys demanded that Seo let himself be replaced with an IF stooge. They were already trying for a coup, in a fumbling and ineffectual way.

Click to shrink...

That's not a coup attempt.

That's them saying "we'll vote for the current set of targets for the Third Four Year Plan if Dr. Seo agrees that he will step down in 2062 to be replaced by a candidate of our choosing."

It's not extralegal. The IF members of Parliament have every right to grant or withhold their votes from the Plan as they see fit, for any reason or none.

It's not a coup attempt. It's just an obnoxious request.

Partly deliberate on my end. Icari is former military in the militarists. Yukino was elected on a socialist platform and is a good campaign speaker. Kyle is initiative first and is also quite young. Trends more to online marketing campaigns than in person speeches on the campaign trail. John is a developmentalist with a tech background, does okay on the economics but lacks the same historical background as Lawrence. Martin from the reclamation party has a science background relating to tib. Jack is FMP and comes from a business background, but not a economics background. Etc etc.

Point being, Lawrence is the one with a history/ poli-sci background. they wouldn't necessarily be able to parse his data or his conclusions.

Click to shrink...

Heh. Is that deliberate on your end? Or is that in-character deliberate on Lawrence's end?

Because I'm pretty sure if Lawrence had wanted to bring a few of the MPs with more respected backgrounds in economics and history to this meeting, he could have made that happen. This way, he was in a position to sweep the floor.

Of course, the flip side to that, as history has sadly shown time and again. Is a recurring question of "Why feed the moochers?" Unfortunately selfishness not wanting others to get things for 'free' is common.

Click to shrink...

You're not wrong, but my point is that there's no realistic way to "wean" GDI's economy off the fact that the entire material basis for that economy is tiberium. GDI has approximately four sources of material goods: rocks, literal crap, moon rocks, and tiberium. We make a fair amount of our concrete direct from rocks, our fungus bars from crap, space stuff from moon rocks, and everything else from tiberium. That's a bit of an oversimplification, but it conveys the extent of the issue.

Likewise, there's no realistic way to revert the economy to a 20th century standard of full manufacturing employment, nor to the free-trade globalized economy that permitted the developed world to focus on full service-sector employment while somewhere else did the manufacturing... A system which in-quest probably started to some time around 2000-2010.

The risk theoretically exists, but I think he's fundamentally wrong to see it as something he can fight by raising employment and increasing the cash share of the budget. When the chips are down, the economy will still be utterly dependent on the continued flow of tiberium, and attaining full employment is likely to involve pressuring a lot of people into bullshit jobs until and unless we expand the tiberium economy so much that there are just so damn many automated factories and things that everyone can be genuinely needed fighting tiberium, fighting Nod, building spaceships, or providing support structure and a home to come back to for someone doing one of the first three.

...

So basically, the way I see it, he's identified a risk correctly (a highly automated economy where capital can largely take the place of labor makes it possible for the controllers of the capital to sideline most of the human population). But his proposed solutions are unlikely to make much difference, except insofar as the problem has already been solved by the mechanisms of democracy giving GDI's overall population control over the people who in turn control the capital on behalf of the state.

I'm not saying he's crazy or stupid, mind you, but he seems to be preoccupied with solving the wrong problem if he's trying to avert the danger he's identified.

 

[doruma1920]

The concerns about the Labor market have some merit, the unemployment figures (extrapolated from the Labor value) have been increasing steadily after the local minimum at the end of the second FYP and start of the third. This was a result of both getting the prosthetics online from Services and from incoming refugees increasing the available workforce. Before this we had a roughly linear decrease over the first two Plans.

That increase in unemployment could be a factor in Lawrence's figures. Admittedly the scale of the GDI's state economy is ridiculous, and as such it would be difficult to enact a coup do to the number of keys to power you would have to secure. The GDI has three external enemies (NOD, the Visitors, and Tiberium), and has the internal strife normal to any state. However, the internal strife is kept suppressed by the external threats, and as such no rational actor would try to execute a coup while there are so many potential threats. Further with how diffuse the BZs are, it would be difficult for any would be dictator to seize power of all of it. Then if they were only successful, they could only be so in a few clustered BZs at most (BZ 1, 3, 5, 13, 15, and 17, or BZ 10, 14, 19, or BZ 6, 7, 11, and 16). They would become like the NOD warlords, and would find it difficult to resist NOD's pressure, to say nothing of the coordination needed to suppress Tiberium.

Any coup attempt would find it very difficult to actually secure power over the entirety of the GDI (all 18 BZs, LEO, and Luna) as NOD would jump on that opportunity like a starving lion, and the resulting conflict (both the internal one of the coup attempt and the external one against NOD) would seriously degrade the GDI's Tiberium mitigation efforts. Any rational actor would consider the risks too great to attempt a coup for control of the GDI as they would lose power not gain it. Any irrational actor would need some sort of appeal to emotion that Parliament was leading the GDI to ruin to gain popular support, and that belief better be amazingly good to not only convince the voters, but also convince the military, the treasury, and the director to execute such a coup.

Its far more likely that the civil service would seek to do what every civil service does and sideline the elected representatives rather then execute an outright coup. Even then, de jure Parliament has the authority to direct the treasury to do specific things, and de facto if the treasury wanted to maintain its position with Parliament effectively sidelined in this scenario, it would still do what Parliament asks, if slower and drawn out.

If Parliament wants a specific number of Consumer/Capital Goods, we can do that. If they want a bunch of inhibitors, we can do that, its when they restrict projects that we are using to fund everything else that runs against our priorities.

 

[Eldon]

Lawrence Was not warning against an outside coup attempt. He was warning that there are a group of very few powerful people that effectively control all the levers of power in the GDI and the current state focused economic model gives them little reason to consider the views of the population from an economic perspective as the GDI funding and military are almost fully independent of the civilian economy.

He also hinted at the fact that parliament which represents the civilian population has little ability to enforce anything if the military and treasury say no.

Both are genuine concerns and historically have been the cause of problems. The main flaw with his argument is it's sole focus on the economic viewpoint and not looking at other lenses such as cultural which would point out that such a move to alienate the population goes against the culture build up within the GDI.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Both are genuine concerns and historically have been the cause of problems. The main flaw with his argument is it's sole focus on the economic viewpoint and not looking at other lenses such as cultural which would point out that such a move to alienate the population goes against the culture build up within the GDI.

Click to shrink...

Also, at risk of being repetitive, that his analysis identifies the problem but then charges off in the wrong direction when it comes time to figure out how to solve it.

Because to fix the problem he describes, he'd need to make tiberium not a supermajority of GDI's economy... But tiberium is the source of all our material goods of almost every kind except for food. Trying to "wean ourselves" from tiberium isn't a viable solution to the problem for the foreseeable future.

At the same time, I feel like Lawrence is, rationally, leaning on the fourth wall a bit here. More than a few of us have fallen part or all the way into the mindset of, say, resenting the rest of the government for "taking away" our budget at reallocation time. Or prioritizing the military-industrial complex far over the civilian economy. Right now we're in kind of a bind because of Plan commitments, and there's a broad overall issue where many of our big industrial projects do impact the civilian economy... But Lawrence isn't entirely wrong to identify this mindset as a potential 'weak point' in GDI's arrangements, if the Treasury gets too fixated on Number Go Up, or if this gets coupled with a faction that has firm control of InOps and the military.

 

[BoSPaladin]

Also, at risk of being repetitive, that his analysis identifies the problem but then charges off in the wrong direction when it comes time to figure out how to solve it.

Click to shrink...

Something of an elephant in the room that's left unsaid, is that, Lawrence wants investment into the civilian economy, consumer goods and food for its own sake.

So there is a slight risk his proposed solution isn't 100% aimed directly at the main problem he outlines for his audience.

 

[mmgaballah]

"No, GDI has the largest most powerful military in the world. But that's irrelevant. The problem is the same, worse even in some ways. If said dictator has a more powerful military at their command. A consumer economy relies upon educating the populace, service jobs, the financial sector, whatever it is, the bulk of the wealth- the real wealth that is comes from the labour of the people. People working factory jobs, or in support roles to keep manufacturing workers fed, and so on and so forth. Civilians provide much of the economy and so can enact change through strike action, which if their employers or government don't want to see much of their economy grind to a halt means they have to keep the civilian population happy. Along with a need for hospitals to keep the workers healthy and so on. But in an extraction economy the local warlord only needs to slap down a fort on a gold mine, grab a couple hundred soldiers and however many miners, and a dictator can control the bulk of the wealth of an entire nation of millions. Funnelling Millions or billions to themselves and a small group of supporters while the rest of the country languishes in poverty and see's little to no of that wealth."

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think this brings across the point Lawrance is coming from for anyone who wants an in depth look on why parliament is worried ,
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Because to fix the problem he describes, he'd need to make tiberium not a supermajority of GDI's economy... But tiberium is the source of all our material goods of almost every kind except for food. Trying to "wean ourselves" from tiberium isn't a viable solution to the problem for the foreseeable future.

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he isn't trying to wean the GDI off tiberium , he is pushing for an expanded private sector not beholden to central government control so that the GDI can't lock private citizens out of meaningful participation or say so in the economy , the only part that is worrying is them wanting to slow down GDI harvesting efforts for alternative abetments means in some belief that it will give the private sector time to catch up and become relevant enough that the treasury can't shut it down , the fact that they are concerned that the treasury might try to shut down private economic initiative in the name of holding on to their centralized power is worrying but not exactly 100% false

 

[Dmol8]

think this brings across the point Lawrance is coming from for anyone who wants an in depth look on why parliament is worried ,
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs


he isn't trying to wean the GDI off tiberium , he is pushing for an expanded private sector not beholden to central government control so that the GDI can't lock private citizens out of meaningful participation or say so in the economy , the only part that is worrying is them wanting to slow down GDI harvesting efforts for alternative abetments means in some belief that it will give the private sector time to catch up and become relevant enough that the treasury can't shut it down , the fact that they are concerned that the treasury might try to shut down private economic initiative in the name of holding on to their centralized power is worrying but not exactly 100% false

Click to shrink...

His keep could shelter hundreds...His gold could feed far more...I have but one last question...What are you waiting for

No. Just no. Edit 2: To be clear I'm replying to the argument summed up by Edit 3: @mmgaballah in his post and not to any argument made by Edit 3: mmgaballah. Let's repeat yesterday's post about Slavery, but this time focused on the Innocent Class of Slaves instead of the Chattel and Penal Classes:

So lets start with the problem of Slavery which can be simply defined as: Slavery only matters to Neutral and Evil People , but doesn't matter to Good People. It is the End of Slavery that matters to Good People.

So if one is a Good Person you don't want Slavery to be a thing and you want it to end. One of such Goodness seldom cares about what exactly Slavery is or how it came into being, all that matters is stopping it.

If one is a Neutral Person then Slavery is. It's not one's problem most of the time other than as one of the threats to one's well being, close or far doesn't really matter, and as such slaves are there and can be used if useful and capable, but otherwise don't matter. One has their own life to care for and can't both live it and go fixing broken things after all.

If one is an Evil Person then Slavery is one of the points of being Evil. As in one of the things that draws people towards being Evil is the idea of having control over other people and as such making enough of an ablative out of other people's lives that they can feel secure in control of their own life.

So what exactly is Slavery? Or to be more precise what definition of Slavery am I using in this post as a means to analyze the arguments I've picked out to make my own argument?

Well Slavery isn't a single system of human exploitation, instead it is multiple overlapping systems of human exploitation that come from both the top and the bottom, but some are more top heavy and others are more bottom/grassroots based. There are classes to Slavery that are connected to the, for lack of a better word, levels of Empire the vile practice is made in:

- The Batman Class which is a Level 3 Empire Bottom/Grassroot Class of Slavery that is based on turning people into slaves by the belief that some people's lives have less worth that other, on the surface more successful, people. It's an internalized inferiority complex that is combined with wanting to do something of value but also "knowing" that one isn't worthy of such a "great" act and should find some "great" person to serve and help their preferred act come to life. I could point to Elon Musk's fanbase for a lot of people who are like that, but there is a great historical example of such a person rising high yet never getting their own internalized collar thrown off: Dragutin Dimitrijević Apis. The man who directly caused WWI by his own actions and in the canon of the Tiberium CnC games the leader of Kane's Black Hand at the time.

- The Innocent Class which is a Level 2 Empire Top Class of Slavery that is based on turning people into slaves by the belief that their innocence in a matter matters the most. As in: "Why should I wear a mask to protect others from COVID-19 when it still spreads even trough masks when I am innocent of causing it. Go after the guilty parties and leave me alone." Basically people who focus on and demand of others only personal responsibility and no collective action/responsibility is ever thought of as worthwhile to them. Created from people who have been broken by the various governmental systems and now don't want to participate in any government system that isn't made of their own beliefs. On this site a good example would be how every once in a while there are tribunals that permaban users who keep demanding their own worldview be followed over the rules of the site.

- The "Servus" Class which is a Level 1 Empire Bottom/Grassroot Class of Slavery exaptated with parasitism from parenthood/caretaking. I don't actually know the proper name for this one, but it is based on exploiting the parent/teacher-child/student relationship to limit peoples' worldviews and turn them into cogs in the machine of an Empire instead of well-educated/adjusted members of society.

- The Indentured Class which is a Level 1 Empire Top Class of Slavery based on the idea of forced debts to give the right to exploit people to a select few.

- The Penal Class which is a Level 2 Empire Bottom/Grassroot Class of Slavery based on the idea that people should be punished for their crimes and having them work of their debt to society trough their punishment.

- The Chattel Class which is a Level 3 Empire Top Class of Slavery based on the idea that some people are just animals and should be treated as such and so hunted and domesticated for their use in Civilizationtm.

So the Levels of Empires are:

- Level 1: Multi-City Entity bound by a single leadership.
- Level 2: Multi-People Entity bound by a single unifying ideal.
- Level 3: Multi-Territory/Colonial Entity bound by a single dominant ethnic group.

CGP Grey's Rules for Rulers is an excellent example of the slave collar of the Innocent: They are Innocent because that is the way of the world and no one can change that. Except that isn't true:

- The whole you have to pay your own keys or they will be flipped mostly ignores that payment doesn't have to be in some form of money/economic gain. It can be in ideological alignment or in (in)stability of state.

- The whole resources that are independent from the people's work are ripe for a coup ignores that such coups were almost always incited by outside influences coming in and killing the unwilling keys and buying up or even establishing their own keys.

- The whole you have to pay the Dark Money Interests their due or they will overthrow you ignores grassroot politics and how they can be a powerful enough counterbalance to Dark Money to get people elected that will fight only for populist interests. See the Progressive Era in the US for how complicated such a conflict can be.

Fun fact the modern name for a State System built on the Innocent System of Slavery is Mega-Corporation and we have a few historical examples of this with the one coming to mind first being the East India Company. As such this whole act of concern trolling by CGP Grey about how Rulers can't be anything other than tyrants is a naked piece of libertarian propaganda with bitcoin being used as a token for money being especially on the nose.

As for our own in-thread problem of relying too much on Tiberium for our resources income?

We have insiders that would like a coup and going back to the old way of doing things in the Initiative First and the Free Market Party, we have outsiders that would like us to go back to our old ways that are agitating in their own way for that happen in the Brotherhood of Nod and we may be getting infiltrators that want us harm and may choose supporting a coup as a means of weakening us in the form of the Not-Scrin/Visitors. Also the Open Hand Party will be a headache in itself when it comes to political takes starting next plan.

None of this means we should just accept being strong armed into less Tiberium production. Remember our final goal is the removal of Tiberium from the Solar System. As such at some point if our abatement is effective enough we will find ourselves in a situation where we will be trading an income decrease for an improvement in our environment. We should take it when it comes along and continue to build up our civilian economy in the meanwhile.

Edit: Also I overfocused on the Top part of society in this post because this sort of logic is not something you see coming from the grassroots. It's always astroturfing or brownshirts who would would like to be a part of the Top that argue for these sorts of things. As such if OP feels like it we may end up with a new party that replaces the Free Market Party: The Civil Infrastructure Party.

 

[TheFourthman]

The problem isn't our department as a whole per say either. He talks about our authority but we have no real enforcement mechanisms. The real issue could become the military decides and threatens or convinces enough of the treasury to go along.

 

[KnightDisciple]

Personally I'm of the opinion that CRP is always going to taste like crap. True, with a lot of work and the right techs our scientists might develop a way of making it taste of milder crap but it is what it is

Click to shrink...

You can hold that opinion but it has no basis in facts. The QM told us the things we can/need to do to improve the taste. You have literally no proof that the taste will always be "bad" or "crap". Please do not peddle your uninformed opinion with the gravity of a statement of fact.

 

[Vehrec]

Well whether or not we can improve the taste, we probably can't improve it much in the next...nine months. I think we can all agree that our agriculture dice are kinda locked up for the immediate future and we can't afford random genetics studies to hunt for tasty CRP.

 

[KnightDisciple]

Well whether or not we can improve the taste, we probably can't improve it much in the next...nine months. I think we can all agree that our agriculture dice are kinda locked up for the immediate future and we can't afford random genetics studies to hunt for tasty CRP.

Click to shrink...

I'm certainly not advocating it be in plans now, but by the same token I don't want the thread to get the brain worm that CRP "can't" be improved, such that they refuse to consider improving the technology.

 

[BOTcommander]

Dmol, what the fuck are you talking about?

 

[MightbeaMimic]

His keep could shelter hundreds...His gold could feed far more...I have but one last question...What are you waiting for

No. Just no. Let's repeat yesterday's post about Slavery, but this time focused on the Innocent Class of Slaves instead of the Chattel and Penal Classes:

So lets start with the problem of Slavery which can be simply defined as: Slavery only matters to Neutral and Evil People , but doesn't matter to Good People. It is the End of Slavery that matters to Good People.

So if one is a Good Person you don't want Slavery to be a thing and you want it to end. One of such Goodness seldom cares about what exactly Slavery is or how it came into being, all that matters is stopping it.

If one is a Neutral Person then Slavery is. It's not one's problem most of the time other than as one of the threats to one's well being, close or far doesn't really matter, and as such slaves are there and can be used if useful and capable, but otherwise don't matter. One has their own life to care for and can't both live it and go fixing broken things after all.

If one is an Evil Person then Slavery is one of the points of being Evil. As in one of the things that draws people towards being Evil is the idea of having control over other people and as such making enough of an ablative out of other people's lives that they can feel secure in control of their own life.

So what exactly is Slavery? Or to be more precise what definition of Slavery am I using in this post as a means to analyze the arguments I've picked out to make my own argument?

Well Slavery isn't a single system of human exploitation, instead it is multiple overlapping systems of human exploitation that come from both the top and the bottom, but some are more top heavy and others are more bottom/grassroots based. There are classes to Slavery that are connected to the, for lack of a better word, levels of Empire the vile practice is made in:

- The Batman Class which is a Level 3 Empire Bottom/Grassroot Class of Slavery that is based on turning people into slaves by the belief that some people's lives have less worth that other, on the surface more successful, people. It's an internalized inferiority complex that is combined with wanting to do something of value but also "knowing" that one isn't worthy of such a "great" act and should find some "great" person to serve and help their preferred act come to life. I could point to Elon Musk's fanbase for a lot of people who are like that, but there is a great historical example of such a person rising high yet never getting their own internalized collar thrown off: Dragutin Dimitrijević Apis. The man who directly caused WWI by his own actions and in the canon of the Tiberium CnC games the leader of Kane's Black Hand at the time.

- The Innocent Class which is a Level 2 Empire Top Class of Slavery that is based on turning people into slaves by the belief that their innocence in a matter matters the most. As in: "Why should I wear a mask to protect others from COVID-19 when it still spreads even trough masks when I am innocent of causing it. Go after the guilty parties and leave me alone." Basically people who focus on and demand of others only personal responsibility and no collective action/responsibility is ever thought of as worthwhile to them. Created from people who have been broken by the various governmental systems and now don't want to participate in any government system that isn't made of their own beliefs. On this site a good example would be how every once in a while there are tribunals that permaban users who keep demanding their own worldview be followed over the rules of the site.

- The "Servus" Class which is a Level 1 Empire Bottom/Grassroot Class of Slavery exaptated with parasitism from parenthood/caretaking. I don't actually know the proper name for this one, but it is based on exploiting the parent/teacher-child/student relationship to limit peoples' worldviews and turn them into cogs in the machine of an Empire instead of well-educated/adjusted members of society.

- The Indentured Class which is a Level 1 Empire Top Class of Slavery based on the idea of forced debts to give the right to exploit people to a select few.

- The Penal Class which is a Level 2 Empire Bottom/Grassroot Class of Slavery based on the idea that people should be punished for their crimes and having them work of their debt to society trough their punishment.

- The Chattel Class which is a Level 3 Empire Top Class of Slavery based on the idea that some people are just animals and should be treated as such and so hunted and domesticated for their use in Civilizationtm.

So the Levels of Empires are:

- Level 1: Multi-City Entity bound by a single leadership.
- Level 2: Multi-People Entity bound by a single unifying ideal.
- Level 3: Multi-Territory/Colonial Entity bound by a single dominant ethnic group.

CGP Grey's Rules for Rulers is an excellent example of the slave collar of the Innocent: They are Innocent because that is the way of the world and no one can change that. Except that isn't true:

- The whole you have to pay your own keys or they will be flipped mostly ignores that payment doesn't have to be in some form of money/economic gain. It can be in ideological alignment or in (in)stability of state.

- The whole resources that are independent from the people's work are ripe for a coup ignores that such coups were almost always incited by outside influences coming in and killing the unwilling keys and buying up or even establishing their own keys.

- The whole you have to pay the Dark Money Interests their due or they will overthrow you ignores grassroot politics and how they can be a powerful enough counterbalance to Dark Money to get people elected that will fight only for populist interests. See the Progressive Era in the US for how complicated such a conflict can be.

Fun fact the modern name for a State System built on the Innocent System of Slavery is Mega-Corporation and we have a few historical examples of this with the one coming to mind first being the East India Company. As such this whole act of concern trolling by CGP Grey about how Rulers can't be anything other than tyrants is a naked piece of libertarian propaganda with bitcoin being used as a token for money being especially on the nose.

As for our own in-thread problem of relying too much on Tiberium for our resources income?

We have insiders that would like a coup and going back to the old way of doing things in the Initiative First and the Free Market Party, we have outsiders that would like us to go back to our old ways that are agitating in their own way for that happen in the Brotherhood of Nod and we may be getting infiltrators that want us harm and may choose supporting a coup as a means of weakening us in the form of the Not-Scrin/Visitors. Also the Open Hand Party will be a headache in itself when it comes to political takes starting next plan.

None of this means we should just accept being strong armed into less Tiberium production. Remember our final goal is the removal of Tiberium from the Solar System. As such at some point if our abatement is effective enough we will find ourselves in a situation where we will be trading an income decrease for an improvement in our environment. We should take it when it comes along and continue to build up our civilian economy in the meanwhile.

Edit: Also I overfocused on the Top part of society in this post because this sort of logic is not something you see coming from the grassroots. It's always astroturfing or brownshirts who would would like to be a part of the Top that argue for these sorts of things. As such if OP feels like it we may end up with a new party that replaces the Free Market Party: The Civil Infrastructure Party.

Click to shrink...

What the actual fuck are you talking about?