- Location
- USA
Myomers make mechs somewhat cheaper yes. There's also a reason all our development options are upgrading into tracked or wheeled vehicles and not mechs, which includes both cost and the fact mechs are more niche in their uses.
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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Actually, it's to do with the fact that most of the mechs we use are Steel Talon equipment, which we have been largely ignoring. The only mech that to my knowledge has proliferated out of the Steel Talons after TW3 is the Havok, which ZOCOM has been enjoying quite a bit in the RZs.
- Location
- USA
I was speaking more into the development of existing combat platforms into new ones. The Havok is a perfect example since it is designed for a specific niche in the Red Zones.
Keep in mind that the Havoc is likely to become standard for the GDI's regular ground forces as well after ZOCOM gets enough (we'll probably get factory projects for them for ground forces in the next 5 year plan). Currently GDI does not have anything else that can do the job that the Havoc can.
Another perfect example will be the Mastodon, being designed to do the job of the Mammoth
Actually, it was designed to be a Steel Talon recon mech. It just happens that a recon mech with jump jets, an infantry mulching grenade thrower and a heavy hitting cannon is really useful in the extremely broken terrain of the RZs.
Actually, ZOCOM has enough Havoks for their purposes. GDI has different equipment that can do the job the Havok can for YZ/GZ/BZ operations.
The reason we may see a third factory for Havok production is if ZOCOM hands off shallow RZ operations to general operations, where Bulldogs loaded with sensors may be sufficiently less capable in the terrain they will be dealing with compared to a jumpy mech, but the light recon vehicle is considerably more cost effective beyond those areas.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The quote you used noted it as a replacement for the Mammoth Mark 2, not the Mark 3 - and yes that's an important distinction. The Mark 2 was an entirely different beast, and really should have been considered its own thing.
Ah, my bad. I'm not really an expert in game lore, having learned it mostly through this quest
- Location
- New England
They've got 'em, they just don't hand them out to butterbar 2nd lieutenants with less than a year in service, lol
I mean, in C&C4 we have Mastodons and Mammoth Mk IVs. Mainly because there was an argument over whether Mammoth Mk IIs would've done better vs Scrin than Mammoth Mk IIIs, and so as the TCN was being built GDI eventually built both Mastodon and Mammoth Mk IV instead of taking a side in the argument. Fun fact: the baseline Mammoth Mk IV in C&C4 had regular cannons, and upgraded to railguns.
The Steel Talons' opinions on vehicles should not be taken as Ground Force's opinion on vehicles. I mean, the Steel Talons refused to give up their Titans for Predators in the first place. Of course they'll take a walker as replacement for Mammoth Mk III. It's their niche. I'm just surprised they weren't still using Mammoth Mk IIs.
The Steel Talons' opinions on vehicles should not be taken as Ground Force's opinion on vehicles. I mean, the Steel Talons refused to give up their Titans for Predators in the first place. Of course they'll take a walker as replacement for Mammoth Mk III. It's their niche. I'm just surprised they weren't still using Mammoth Mk IIs.
In all fairness, that's probably because it's Mech Infantry. If they need heavy armor firepower, they call a Predator. If we had been an Armored unit, calling in heavy armor firepower probably would've meant Mammoths.
Just to point out, the Titan upgrade program resulted in the Titan Mk III.
So "Mammoth Block Four" is probably a replacement for the Mammoth Mk IIIs. And just for completeness, Titan Mk III deployment was 175 progress and was completed in Q2 2056. The description that quarter included that the last of the Mk II Titans would be retired by the end of the plan (which was Q4 2057). So I'd expect we'd fully have replaced Mammoth Mk IIIs with Mammoth Mk IVs by 2066 as long as we got the deployment done 1.5-2 years before end of Plan.Q4 2055 said:
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I see. Well, the Mammoth Mark 2:
...And the Mastodon (as appearing in Twilight, not necessarily here):
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
Ground Forces have been making eyes at the Havoks though.
Possibly because they could either develop upgrades for what they already have, or they could just point to the already developed Havoks and ask for a bunch of those. And the later is cheaper.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Both Ground Forces and Space Forces have made noises about wanting the Havoc.
Ground want Havoks for a number of niche operations, like mountain or river ops, where the tall nature of the mech and its ability to jump around can be boons. Space wants the mech because it's a really convenient form factor to shove into a drop pod.
Ground is likely to drop the Havok in favour of a hover scout for most operations though, at least if we start investing enough in hover vehicles. All the advantages the Havok offers other than height in a much shorter and quiter vehicle. Also a very expensive one, since it will be demanding STUs.
Ground is likely to drop the Havok in favour of a hover scout for most operations though, at least if we start investing enough in hover vehicles. All the advantages the Havok offers other than height in a much shorter and quiter vehicle. Also a very expensive one, since it will be demanding STUs.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
LE GASP!!!
You mean people who aren't Steel Talons want Mechs? That's crazy talk.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Note a very important passage here:
"...not a single one of the committed superheavy battalions remained combat-viable by nightfall..."
That is a bad sign. We used multiple Mammoth battalions, probably several of them, and they were used up, implying heavy vehicle losses and most if not all vehicles at least partially incapacitated by damage after a single day of fighting. That's a high price to pay to break a line.
Remember the Battle of St. Petersburg? I remember being reassured that a wing of GDI Firehawks had been able to beat a squadron of Nod Barghests and suffer roughly 1:1 casualty ratios. Then I reflected that (1) a 'wing' outnumbers a 'squadron' by about 3:1 or 4:1, and (2) our fighters do most of their killing with missiles before Nod craft could get into beam range. Thus, those casualty rates indicated that something very bad was going on regarding the Firehawk's ability to survive combat with Barghests at anything like reasonable odds.
Likewise, what happened to the Mammoths here, involving them doing exactly what they were designed to do under more or less the conditions they were designed to do it under, resulted in a lot of Mammoths being at least disabled if not destroyed, with uncertain but probably significant crew casualties.
The Mammoths need a defensive upgrade. They're not survivable enough to stand up under plasma and missile fire, and the Battle of Jacksonville called us out on this.
The Havoc's been in the Talons' hands for years and we still haven't got an option to deploy it to ZOCOM, let alone Ground Force. It's going to be a while before there's any chance of the Mastodon supplanting the Mammoth as a superheavy breakthrough tank. We shouldn't rely on that.
Quite frankly, I want to develop buckler shields for the Talons (seriously, shield tech research is important) soon. Then we do the Mammoth upgrades right after, if and as we can squeeze it in.
- Location
- his hidden lair
The Havoc isn't a scout so much as it's a raider/skirmisher from what I remember. We're probably going to see a nasty Pitbull replacement with stealth disrupters, a hover chassis, sensors, and automatic railguns- but the role for a mobile fast attacker built around short high intensity engagements will probably remain with the havoc
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The problem with this approach is that it forces us to mix in Predators that aren't armored against the same weapons the Mammoths are, and so will draw disproportionate fire from things like plasma guns and bipropellant guns that the Mammoths are supposed to be soaking fire from. Also, I'm not sure how realistic it is to rely on one tank to cover another tank here. Can a Predator's antimissile lasers reliably shoot down missiles headed for another tank 100 meters away? How tightly would you have to bunch up tanks along a fixed, narrow frontage for the Mammoths to have reliable Predator cover to defend them against missiles?
Much better to just bolt the laser turrets onto the Predators directly, surely.
Wait- has ZOCOM got ahold of them yet?
I thought not.
- Location
- The Underdark
ZOCOM has a few of them, mostly for testing purposes. The problem right now is honestly that the military section is stuffed full of high priority projects, so things like getting more Havocs out is stuck below other things.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
So "more Havocs for ZOCOM" is one of those projects like "actually develop the Paladin" that's kind of waiting for the overall Military dice allocation situation to cool off a bit?
- Location
- The Underdark
And for a shift in priorities, but yes. Right now, overall priority is heavily towards things that fix immediate bleeding, or are immediately useful, or are fundamental techs. Once the war ends, that prioritization is going to change.
That's because everyone wants a crotch railgun mech.
Well, considering a Guardian APC with laser point defense mounted instead of an offensive system covering numerous infantry and armor units against arty and missile fire in GDI Platoon Commander quest just last mission....
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The question of new tank vs retrofit regarding the Mammoth Mk III isn't helped by the program name. "Mammoth Block Four" gets confusing, because "Block x" makes me think of planes, where it's an upgrade indicator. Modern Navy has Flight (particularly with the Burke DDGs). By the same token, the number also fits if we're going to a new model from the Mk III.
The use of <vehicle> Mark <number> historically is not the way GDI used it for the Mammoth, given that it was variants/upgrades of the original (see Churchill, Valentine, Centurion tanks for examples). The Titan main battle walkers at least use the system correctly, and the Wolverines probably do as well. Mammoth Mk II was a completely different chassis and design from the original Mammoth, and Mammoth Mk III (Or Mammoth 27... for what reason it was designated that, I have no idea because it's certainly not the year the design came out, which is probably why everyone just refers to it as the Mk III) isn't the same chassis as either preceding Mammoth. At least the Mk III has visual similarities with the Mk I.
It's possible that since "Mk x" was used for other development programs in Quest, this is just a "block" upgrade to the Mk III. In which case, what's Block 1-3? We have railguns in C&C3, so that's probably one (maybe Block 2 that didn't see widespread deployment due to low Nod threat levels prior to TW3?). Steel Talons in KW get Adaptive Armor, so that's probably another one (perhaps Block 3 upgrade in the late 2040s that failed to get approved for GF use due to expense?). In which case it's a Mammoth Mk III Block 4, which helpfully doesn't cause issues for my second/third attempt at a vehicle designation system if it gets done before the Paladin.
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Amusing thought... if we took a ZEMEV and reconfigured the rear to hold regular infantry rather than be a Zone Armor ambulance, how many people do you think we could fit? Not that it would necessarily be a good idea compared to a purpose designed APC/IFV.
Yeah the Havoc was originally supposed to be a light scouting unit but due to how long we held off on it and all the new tech it ballooned into a 35 ton fast attack/hunterkiller (against enemy scouts and light vehicles) and Zone Armor support unit... that can still act as a scout.
- Location
- New England
It's mostly a gameplay contrivance (and also remember that it's non-canon as related to the main quest, with the exception of stuff that I post in the main thread that gets explicitly and appropriately threadmarked by the QM), but I based it on the behavior of the Avenger from C&C Generals: Zero Hour - it attacks all incoming nearby missiles, not just ones targeted at the unit in question. And possibly the Paladin, but I don't remember if that one targets attacks for other units. The mechanism is that PD negates damage from one projectile attack per PD system per abstract "engagement", so multiple projectiles can overwhelm it and cause damage.
As far as mixing Predators in with Mammoths, that's the point of a combined-arms doctrine mobile warfare doctrine. Mammoths go up front, Predators hang back a little to provide support. If the Predators need to pull back because there's a bunch of laser and plasma guns and not so many cannons/missiles, they have the speed to disengage. Otherwise, better suck it up, buttercup - you've got ablative plating, too. Even if the PD capabilities aren't as extensive as I read them to be, I doubt you'd ever see a uniform Mammoth formation without a bunch of lighter supporting units; a Mammoth is great (being able to engage vehicles, infantry and aircraft), but can't deal with artillery, landmines, hit-and-run stealth units, to give just a few examples. And also is super expensive - not exactly a strategic asset necessarily, but you don't want to be losing them left and right.
(note that in any actual C&C game, a critical mass of mammoth tanks is basically unstoppable, at least by the AI; I haven't played much PvP C&C, so I imagine there are tactics useable by Nod to deal with them)