- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
Medium Tactical Plasma Weapons then?
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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The problem isn't inventing the badass death ray, it's going to be fitting it to our platforms.Medium Tactical Plasma Weapons then?
Besides. Nod hasn't spent the past sixty-seven years relying on GDI not having death rays.
Nod has spent the past sixty-seven years relying on GDI not being able to see them.
You want to really fuck over Nod's entire military strategy... you want to invest in Advanced ECCM and Cloak Disruptors.
Oledoms
Friesmancer
Would 8 Dice be enough for Karachi?
However, I still firmly believe in increasing the base military die from 8 to 9 not only to allow more free dice to other like industry.
In the next allocation ,this could be reversed since we came out of a major war there will.most likely be a large demand to increase military spending or a larger set of military goals than the previous ones.
However, I still firmly believe in increasing the base military die from 8 to 9 not only to allow more free dice to other like industry.
In the next allocation ,this could be reversed since we came out of a major war there will.most likely be a large demand to increase military spending or a larger set of military goals than the previous ones.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Plasma weaponry means that Nod needs to redesign its platforms to resist them. Armour designed to resist plasma, that sort of thing. It's annoying, but it's not a fundamental change and is a quicker fix.
Stealth disruptors and better sensors so we can defeat their stealth tech though? That forces a doctrine shift, and they're going to be scrambling to adapt their tactics and to try and revise their stealth tech to try and beat us again.
Stealth disruptors and better sensors so we can defeat their stealth tech though? That forces a doctrine shift, and they're going to be scrambling to adapt their tactics and to try and revise their stealth tech to try and beat us again.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I am confident that at eight dice per turn we can work up to a force that can win the Karachi campaign.
It would be easier with ten dice, easier still with twelve, but there are limits.
I'm not saying no, but we should also consider increasing our dice in the other areas, the very same ones. I'd take a sixth Heavy Industry die or a seventh Orbital die over a ninth Military die, for instance.
This is especially true given that we're probably going to give away one of our Heavy Industry dice for the Department of Alternative Energy option in either 2061Q4 or 2062Q1, bringing us back down to four... And we have plenty of reasons to want Capital Goods, all of them we can get.
You're right. Plus, Nod has plasma weapons and has had for some time, which means they've almost certainly given some thought as to how to counter them.
I'd much rather unleash on them something they cannot prepare for properly while still taking full advantage of their existing tech, such as...
Yeah, this.
Plus, there's probably a lot of second and third-tier Nod warlords and sub-commanders who have just spent literally their whole lives accustomed to exploiting Nod's overwhelming advantage in the field of stealth and ECM technology. If that advantage abruptly goes 'poof' it's going to hurt them badly.
My one regret is that we couldn't squeeze this in before Steel Vanguard; it would have been even better timing than doing it right before Eastern Paris. Though as it stands, we've done about as much damage to Nod as we could do without them busting out strategic weapons, and we don't have the means to counter their strategic weapons, so maybe that's just as well.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
That is rather self evident, since we developed them a while ago, but left the deployment hanging. XD
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
What, on the plasma cannons?
Nah, we worked out the theory of plasma cannons, but we haven't built actual weaponized death rays based on that theory. There's three steps:
1) "How the fuck does this even work?"
2) "Okay, now how do I use that knowledge to build my own death ray?"
3) "Having built the death ray, how do I affix it to my big stompy gunline army?"
We are still at the start of Step Two with plasma weapons, where we have not yet built our own viable death rays, let alone got the point where the next step is to arm the troops with them.
But that requires Talons budget.
Nah, we worked out the theory of plasma cannons, but we haven't built actual weaponized death rays based on that theory. There's three steps:
1) "How the fuck does this even work?"
2) "Okay, now how do I use that knowledge to build my own death ray?"
3) "Having built the death ray, how do I affix it to my big stompy gunline army?"
We are still at the start of Step Two with plasma weapons, where we have not yet built our own viable death rays, let alone got the point where the next step is to arm the troops with them.
But that requires Talons budget.
- Location
- MSC
What are the odds that Navy will make sure that Islands and Victories are part of the next plan anyway?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, but the navy has significant political clout with the Militarists in particular and probably the other parties, because this war has just been a dramatic lesson in the consequences of GDI allowing its navy to become rather second-rate.
We're likely to see naval options showing up on the list of "things you can agree to do to appease the Militarists and get their votes." If it weren't for the part where we're probably going to finish all the frigate yards before the end of the Plan, I'd expect to see them on the Developmentalists' list, too, because Nod being free to raid our sealanes is bad for the economy.
- Location
- Wall Gazing
I disagree. Not that I'm saying that Infernium Lasers, A-ECCM, and SDs aren't going to be good for improving the Navy's capabilities. The problem is the construction time of the ships. I would prefer to get at least one yard of the Island Assault Ship class out earlier, just to continue getting hulls in the water. Plus if we finished one early in the new Plan we should have the ships active by the time Eastern Paris is good to go.
I don't think they are a requirement, but having some of those ships will make the landings much more straight forward, and would allow us to properly threaten the rest of the Indian coast with follow on invasions, forcing them to keep a sizable reserve to guard against raids.
Far less of a priority, but to properly bring the fight to Bintang and the various minor raiders in the Caribbean and elsewhere we will need the Victory Monitors and that will be key in securing the various NOD held Island chains thus alleviating the need for significant convoy escorts. Attacking the root cause as it were rather than treating the symptoms.
Thats why I think we continuously need to roll out the shipyards, as they will expand the Navy's toolbox.
To be absolutely clear, I don't think we would need to finish all the Island shipyards before Eastern Paris. Not even close. Having dozens of Islands isn't going to be useful, but having one wave from one shipyard, would certainly go a long way to ensuring our supply situation remained stable during the opening phases of the operation. Also, as platforms for Orcas and Hammerheads, in addition to the Ox, they will benefit enormously from the Wingmen that are already on the docket.
I don't think the Victories are necessary or desired for Eastern Paris. They might be useful in operations in and around the mouth of the Indus, but they seem better suited for raiding ops along the coast, something we want to threaten to force India to keep a reserve, but not necessarily something we want to do, given their potential defenses.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I want to point out that the shipyards we are now building will be turning out wave after wave of ships and continuously putting more hulls in the water for years after we build them. There are going to be at least 2-3 waves of frigates coming out of the frigate yards, for instance, before the yards are too busy servicing the existing frigates to build more, or before the Navy says "okay, enough now."
So even if we stop construction of new yards after finishing the currently planned frigate and light carrier yards, ongoing new construction will still be expanding the Navy up through 2063 and 2064.
That's fair... but at the same time, we'll definitely need to step back from the current frantic pace of shipyard construction, simply to improve properly in other areas. Right now, every turn is a massive slab of military spending on the Navy and the Air Force, about to switch over to "Navy and the Space Force." The other services are getting scraps. That's not sustainable if we're actively trying to be well prepared for Karachi, because otherwise we risk having the Navy be in great shape to deliver the amphibious assault and then running into serious trouble when we get ashore, due to lack of Zone Armor and other things.
I think you are somewhat underestimating the scale of Eastern Paris and its proposed amphibious landings. A handful of ships, however suitable for the purpose of amphibious warfare, will not be able to have a decisive effect on the outcome.
They won't be useless, but it'd be like deploying, say, a single wing of superior Apollo-A interceptors in among hundreds of regular Apollos.
A force multiplier like cloak disruptors that can be systematically deployed across the entire battlegroup doing the landings and all the air and land forces engaged in the operation may well be more effective than just having, say, half a dozen amphibious assault ships of a new type along with the many many ships of the older types and air-bridge airlift units and so on.
...
This is why I was hoping to probe for answers to questions like "how large are these ships likely to be, and as a corollary how long will they probably take to build and how many will a single yard be able to construct in a single wave" and so on.
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A single yard for the Island class is more to retake small islands like Wake, Diego Garcia, Malta or Midway if we do not control those. If we do retake some of those we get new bases for our airforce to operate from freeing up carriers for where the convoys remain out of land based support or offensive operations.
- Location
- Wall Gazing
From the description of the Victory and Island classes it sounds like the former is similar to the current Frigate yards, and the latter is similar to the Governor and Escort yards.
From the description it more sounds like a few ships, not a full wave from a yard would lead to retaking those islands. Whats more its not like they would be used up maintaining our hold on those islands once taken. They would concentrate on one island and then move on to the next. Its a similar thought process that applies to using them in Eastern Paris.
The thing is unlike the Escorts or Frigates, these things can be concentrated as the tip of the spear for an assault and then used again elsewhere. The Escorts and Frigates, plus to a lesser extent the Hydrofoils and Governors, are committed to specific missions either guarding a convoy route or acting as fleet in being style defense forces. The mission they (the Islands in particular, and the Victory's to a lesser extent) are committed to is the taking of NOD islands: the Arctic Islands, the Caribbean, Hawaii, Indonesia, the Islands in the South Pacific, etc.
They are the key to starting the island hopping campaigns that will majorly secure some of our more vulnerable routes. We took Socotra on the sly from Mehretu during the Caravanserai's campaign against him, and thus made the route from Oman to South Africa far more secure. Doing the same in the Caribbean and Nova Scotia for the trans Atlantic routes, with Hawaii and the Southern Pacific Islands for the trans Pacific routes will do great work in getting to the route of the problem of the NOD raiders, with the Arctic Islands for the North Atlantic and trans Arctic routes (especially with Nuuk now online).
Such operations will do much to alleviate the stress we are going to see when, not if, when the raids pick up again during Eastern Paris. Or at the very least give the raiders a reason to keep their heads down. Yes these ships aren't going to be the linch pin in the initial landings for Karachi, but they are going to help, and then once the initial landings are secure they will go back to island hoping to steadily make the NOD raiders less and less of a threat.
- Location
- Mobile, Alabama
For Karachi? Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
The build lists I've seen that are what we think we need to attack India? Are going to have massive knock on effects. The naval construction alone could very well alter the balance of power at sea. Which will force some show downs as the raiders get desperate. Stealth detection is also going to be a hornets nest as I'm sure there's more cloaked stuff by our borders then we realize.
So don't get discouraged if we hit further roadblocks on the way to Karachi.
The build lists I've seen that are what we think we need to attack India? Are going to have massive knock on effects. The naval construction alone could very well alter the balance of power at sea. Which will force some show downs as the raiders get desperate. Stealth detection is also going to be a hornets nest as I'm sure there's more cloaked stuff by our borders then we realize.
So don't get discouraged if we hit further roadblocks on the way to Karachi.
- Location
- Earth
[EDIT: Ignore because I thought Karachi was 2061 for some reason instead of 2063]
Interjecting into the Karachi discussion...
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from lurking in the thread and discord is that even if all the shipyards for escort carrier and assault ships were magically done this next quarter, none of them will be ready for Karachi next year in 2061 because the lead times on them are all 18-24 months. Even the carrier yards finished in the last few quarters won't have a single ship ready before 2061, certainly not in any useful numbers.
Karachi attempts will be supported by the converted merchant carriers instead I believe.
That's not to say that Assault ships aren't necessary, but any arguments relating to Karachi are probably irrelevant. Those ships will be necessary for future amphibious assaults though.
I do think AECCM and stealth disruptors will have a better chance of deployment for Karachi instead.
Interjecting into the Karachi discussion...
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from lurking in the thread and discord is that even if all the shipyards for escort carrier and assault ships were magically done this next quarter, none of them will be ready for Karachi next year in 2061 because the lead times on them are all 18-24 months. Even the carrier yards finished in the last few quarters won't have a single ship ready before 2061, certainly not in any useful numbers.
Karachi attempts will be supported by the converted merchant carriers instead I believe.
That's not to say that Assault ships aren't necessary, but any arguments relating to Karachi are probably irrelevant. Those ships will be necessary for future amphibious assaults though.
I do think AECCM and stealth disruptors will have a better chance of deployment for Karachi instead.
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- Location
- MSC
I think thread came to a consensus that Karachi will be no earlier than 2063... I might be mistaken, though.
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- Location
- Earth
Note to self, don't post when sleep deprived.
I worry that rolling out the Advanced ECCM and Cloak Disruptors fast and around the same time, while letting us make a lot of wins quickly, would push NOD too far into a corner too fast and we'd see the scorched earth and mass terror/civ casualties tactics come out from every corner of the world.
You'd be putting a boot to the neck of every single NOD leader at once and they would all collectively lash out with far more force and far less abandon than before because you're basically forcing the ultimate do or die moment on them.
You'd be putting a boot to the neck of every single NOD leader at once and they would all collectively lash out with far more force and far less abandon than before because you're basically forcing the ultimate do or die moment on them.
Feel free to ignore that last chunk of the post, it's more venting my annoyance than trying to manipulate people. No one put much thought into Firehawks until it turns out they're inferior to the newest gen Nod fighters. Then it's all "gotta get TAL/Plasma warheads/Drones" because "think of the pilots." Likewise with escort carriers and frigates until Karachi would strip convoys of their escorts, and suddenly we're moving heaven and earth to to get them because Karachi and convoys. And one of the big points of opposition to conversion carriers could be summed as "think of the sailors/air crew" forced to serve on "deathtraps."
And then discussions of getting Islands going to contribute to any degree in Karachi just kinda gets a 'meh.'
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As to the current state of amphib capabilities, I believe this is the latest mention of GDI's amphibious capabilities (from March 2022, just a few days prior to Regency War Part 5 being posted):
The Islands would be the modern version of a Mistral or America class.
As for Battle of YZ-5a:
No mention of how the naval infantry were carried or deployed by hovercraft, and I doubt the carrier has a well deck.
Upside, a Wasp or America carries a battalion of Marines (only 4 tanks IIRC, at least prior to Marines ditching them), so if an Island is a modern Wasp/America, we're looking at a 50-55k ton design that carries a battalion of troops, the associated air/sea transport to put them ashore, and a few Hammerheads/Orcas for CAS. Which means two would've been used for YZ-5a if they'd been in service at the time.
As for things like time? Who the fuck knows? A 40k ton Wasp took 4 years to go from laid down to commissioned, while a 45k ton America took 6 for the same. The 50k ton GDI escort carriers are taking 3. How many ships will be available by a given time? Who the fuck knows? We're not really told how many slips per yard there are until the yards are getting built (also, see previous point regarding build time). There's a lot of questions you're asking that are answered by "who the fuck knows?" because amphib operations haven't really been detailed. How many ships of what type are used to transport/deploy a battalion? Who knows? All we know are that we have the various components, just not dedicated amphib assault ships.
But at least with building Islands, we can start clearing that up to an extent.
- Location
- The Underdark
So, the Monitors, at least in a relatively normal configuration, barring a nat 100, or, for that matter a Nat 1, or a big pile of techs, are 7-10k tons displacement, and will take about as much time per ship as the FFGs you are building now. The LHAs are going to be roughly similar in size to your CVLs, and take about as much time.
Also, the purpose of frigates and especially escort carriers will be to relieve heavy assets currently deployed on escort duty. CVEs are unlikely to be fielded in the Indian Ocean for Karachi, while frigates, if available in substantial enough numbers, will be part of the invasion fleet as part of the fleet defenses.
2 years, actually, and faster over time as the shipyards spin up.
Most military options are 'build the factories and GDI expects to have enough for world wide operations'. Some lead time aside.
- Location
- Wall Gazing
There is a reason SADN is on Simon's docket, and I think that it is something we want to start doing as soon as the plan goals are knocked out. Which should mean starting work in Q3, Q4 at the latest. Certainly something that would be a good idea to have in place asap, it would have prevented two of the three last big hits by NOD (Stahl's missile strike on SA and Bintang's submarine missile strike on Tokyo).
I thought they were 12 turns initially, and would cycle down to 8 over subsequent batches? That'd be 3 years and decrease down to 2.
18 to 24 months construction time, then an uncertain but likely substantial work up period.
To go from start of the first batch in a shipyard to ready for independent operation is likely 3 years, but construction alone is about 2 years, max.
However, it's important to remember that GDI can just go 'we need these ships right now, when construction completes they enter service immediately'. It's not a good plan, of course, but they can do that.