I know that this is an unpopular opinion but we might need to consider removing Pinhole for the remainder of the Plan, between Anadyr, The Tendrils, The shipyards, Zone Armor, Bergen and food reserves and the remaining military request like ASAT and OSRCT. Delaying a Prototype for at least a year that will have a minimal effect for the next decade might not be a bad option.

This is not without precedent considering the Liquid Tiberium Plant was delayed up until now. We just need to make some sacrifices with regards to resources like we did for Political Support.

Delaying it for an year would mean delaying it for at least three years, since we would most definitely not have the resources for it after the reallocation. We need to do it at the time of maximal income, which is the coming year.
This said, delaying it for the coming quarter is probably a good idea, and with finished lunar mines and possibly tendrils we would have a massive income surge for the last three quarters, allowing us to do expensive projects then.
 
Also I would include the Apollo-A and factories which we should be getting soon since that puts lasers on the apollos and should help with the more armored NOD fighters we have seen.
Maybe, but it's a big energy hog. Personally, I'd settle for developing the Apollo-A and refitting the existing factories. Remember, we have missile warheads that are capable of dealing with the armored fighters; it's just that we didn't happen to have those fighters on hand at the time.

If the missiles had been fuzed for impact rather than proximity, we'd have scored more kills. If the missiles had armor-piercing warheads, we'd have scored more kills. If we'd had plasma missiles, we'd have scored more kills. If we'd had Apollo wingman drones for that specific battle, which we did not even though the drones are in mass production but Japan wasn't prioritized to have them, we'd have scored more kills.

Thanks to URLS, all of those are options for us... but they were options the Air Force didn't take on that day because they weren't specifically expecting to be bounced by implausibly well armored fighter craft literally rising out of the depths of the sea without warning.

We already have the tools to counter the Kelpie, and while uprating to the laser-armed Apollo-A will help, I don't think we need to massively expand existing production right away, just upgrade. Especially since the Firehawk is also available to counter the Kelpie, and the Firehawk can be armed with laser gun pods too. And since the Apollo factories will burn -12 Energy when we're already going to need considerable amounts of Energy for other projects like the Zone Armor plants; I don't want 2062 and '63 to be a repeat of the experience we're having right now where practically every Heavy Industry die we have need to be shoveled into Big Fusion to keep up with the pace of war factory construction.

Hmm I might need to do the Erewhon swap (move free dice to orbital and Erewhon down to census, pushes us hopefully ahead in orbital so we have more flex room). I do dislike not doing portals because 1 die a turn is affordable and means we can get it down without worrying about potential overkill (and with dice being that expensive not something we want).
Think about the math.

Right now, the portal project is at 56/180. We have +27 on the die. Two dice, rolled on any combination of turns, have a 91% chance of finishing the project.

Suppose we roll no portal die in 2061Q1.
We roll in Q2. We get some shitty result, say, a 15. Now the project is at 56+15+27 = 98/180.
We roll again in Q3. We get a shitty 15 again. Now the project is at 98+15+27 = 140/180
We roll again in Q4. The project completes on bonuses alone: 140+1+27 = 168/180, bam, omake completion.

It takes an extremely bad combination of rolls for us to not finish the project with three dice. So bad that we'll be able to foresee it coming, and if we're really desperate, throw two dice in 2061Q3 on the grounds that we rolled a 2 in Q2 or something and now may actually need those two dice.
 
Delaying it for an year would mean delaying it for at least three years, since we would most definitely not have the resources for it after the reallocation. We need to do it at the time of maximal income, which is the coming year.
This said, delaying it for the coming quarter is probably a good idea, and with finished lunar mines and possibly tendrils we would have a massive income surge for the last three quarters, allowing us to do expensive projects then.


Good point although considering benefits mentions by @Ilithid on Super Glacier Mining, we might be able to recoup our budget by Q4 2062 if Tentacles are included. Its just that we really need to get our navy and GF new stuff and the more efficient harvesting out.

Alternatively, Delaying it until Q4 2061 might be the better option. Once all shipyards are completed at least and we are no longer in pressure. The we drop 2 dice on it for maximum completion

We might need to consider PS increasing options like Sports and BZ Inhibitors in preparation for the next Plan.

Also, should we end up with only 5 STU due to expenditure on diff material like Naval Lasers, Hover Trucks and STU Metals. Will there be an option to build APK plants like in Say, Chicago or other Planned Cities for STU increase? We have a lot of STU materials needed
 
Also, should we end up with only 5 STU due to expenditure on diff material like Naval Lasers, Hover Trucks and STU Metals. Will there be an option to build APK plants like in Say, Chicago or other Planned Cities for STU increase? We have a lot of STU materials needed

We get STUs for each 100 used Processing we have in the new Hewlett Gardener Process.

This means, while it isn't explicitly listed, for each phase of Processing Refit we complete we get 3 STUs, for each stage of Processing Plants we get 6 STUs, and that we would get 3 STUs from Chicago Phase 4, and an additional 5 from Phase 5. When those are in use.

The current STU need is: 2 (Suzuka) + 2 (Harvesting Tendril Phase 1-2) + 2 (Gravitic Shipyard) + 1 (Infernium Lasers) = 7 STUs total for currently available projects. We currently have 11, so even if we finished all the STU requiring projects we would still have 4 remaining. If we finished the Refits and Chicago we would have 11 additional STUs before we even started building more Processing Plants. STUs are not a very limited resource at present.

This could rapidly change and we will likely see them become more and more prevalent as we develop better tech, but we should be good for the next Plan at least.

Edit: Though this is before we consider things like Advanced Alloys Development, which seems to make certain projects progress cheaper, while adding an STU cost.
 
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In a very real way, our GDI is fundamentally a different state to the pre-TW3 GDI - pretty much none of our administrative population are the same people as before the last government got blown to bits, and most of the rest have lost vast amounts of money in the very near total economic collapse we suffered. Further, the admission of former NOD members en masse means that a very large fraction of our population is made up of our former enemies and people theoretically aligned with them, even if those people are probably even more heavily monitored by InOps than an American muslim in 2002. I don't think GDI could have ever been able to reform and realign as hard as we've had it without such radical changes in the population, ruling class, and the near collapse of the economy.
Though it should be noted that up until Steel Vanguard, a significant number of the 'Yellow Zoners' we were bringing into GDI were people who'd been caught up in the rapid expansion of the Yellow Zones during and immediately after Tib War III- they were residents of territories that had been Blue Zones in 2046, and who can quite honestly say "we didn't cross the Nod/GDI border, the border crossed us... twice."

I know that this is an unpopular opinion but we might need to consider removing Pinhole for the remainder of the Plan, between Anadyr, The Tendrils, The shipyards, Zone Armor, Bergen and food reserves and the remaining military request like ASAT and OSRCT. Delaying a Prototype for at least a year that will have a minimal effect for the next decade might not be a bad option.
I don't think it's necessary. We have the budget to do portal research and Anadyr and a bit of Bergen. Most of the other stuff you talk about isn't even a problem, because the budgetary cost per die is low enough that we can do it as a matter of routine. Spending Agriculture dice on food storage stuff is cheap relative to our current average cost-per-die; if we didn't have to do it we might do it anyway to save money. The shipyards and ASAT/OSRCT are actually not that far off from the cost-per-die you'd get if you just took our whole budget and divided it by the number of dice we roll, so those aren't really a problem for us to fund either.

I think you're worrying about the wrong things here. I'm confident we can afford to finish the portal project by 2061Q4, barring truly insanely bad "this is the worst 3d100 roll you will get in several hundred tries" bad luck.

This is not without precedent considering the Liquid Tiberium Plant was delayed up until now. We just need to make some sacrifices with regards to resources like we did for Political Support.
Liquid tiberium power plant construction has been delayed because we have an attractive alternative that works about as well and has none of the safety issues: fusion power. We don't have an alternative to what portals will one day do.

Delaying it for an year would mean delaying it for at least three years, since we would most definitely not have the resources for it after the reallocation. We need to do it at the time of maximal income, which is the coming year.
This said, delaying it for the coming quarter is probably a good idea, and with finished lunar mines and possibly tendrils we would have a massive income surge for the last three quarters, allowing us to do expensive projects then.
Don't get me wrong, we totally COULD afford it this turn and still be doing other cool stuff. Basically, think of it as: "roll a portal die, get tendrils-this-turn, two dice on Anadyr, pick any two" and you're not far wrong.

Two dice on Anadyr is in my opinion more important than a die on portals, because we're more likely (36% chance) to need 4+ more dice to finish Anadyr than we are (9% chance) to need 3+ dice to finish the portal research. So we can afford two turns of comfortable slow-walking on portals in 'Q2 and 'Q3, but we can't afford three turns of comfortable slow-walking on Anadyr in 'Q1, 'Q2, and 'Q3. Getting two Anadyr dice rolled up front saves us a lot of potential stress from chronic low rolls, because we'll know we have a problem and be able to budget for it.

And of course, I consider tendrils-this-turn to be a higher priority than rolling a single portal die this turn, for the income's sake.

Good point although considering benefits mentions by @Ilithid on Super Glacier Mining, we might be able to recoup our budget by Q4 2062 if Tentacles are included. Its just that we really need to get our navy and GF new stuff and the more efficient harvesting out.

Alternatively, Delaying it until Q4 2061 might be the better option. Once all shipyards are completed at least and we are no longer in pressure. The we drop 2 dice on it for maximum completion
Shipyards aren't our main source of pressure here. The portals roll Service dice, not Military dice, and finding the Resources to pay for the shipyards isn't hard or something we're constrained from doing by the expense of rolling a single portal die.

It's much better to simply start rolling one portal die per turn starting in 2061Q2, which gives us an overwhelming likelihood of finishing the project by 'Q4 and guarantees that we won't waste 100 R on rolling a superfluous dice after the first die rolls a 95 or something.

We might need to consider PS increasing options like Sports and BZ Inhibitors in preparation for the next Plan.
Sports is a cheap project. It's an option we can take any time we like, either before or after Plan reallocation. Frankly, we should probably wait to be sure our Health metric is good before we commit to it.

Blue Zone inhibitors are a bit tougher to budget for, but we could squeeze them in. On the other hand, just finishing Enterprise puts us at 64 Political Support, which isn't bad, and we can afford to negotiate ourselves well down into the low numbers in 2062Q1 because we have a number of space projects that can rapidly restore our Political Support in 2062.

If the Health demands from the refugee waves stabilize, though, I'll be supportive of doing the sports program in late 2061.

Also, should we end up with only 5 STU due to expenditure on diff material like Naval Lasers, Hover Trucks and STU Metals. Will there be an option to build APK plants like in Say, Chicago or other Planned Cities for STU increase? We have a lot of STU materials needed
Well, increasing our tiberium income by +90, followed by +100 from the second phase of the tendril project, plus a bunch from Red Zone Offensives and whatever else? That'll help a lot, just for starters.
 
don't think it's necessary. We have the budget to do portal research and Anadyr and a bit of Bergen. Most of the other stuff you talk about isn't even a problem, because the budgetary cost per die is low enough that we can do it as a matter of routine. Spending Agriculture dice on food storage stuff is cheap relative to our current average cost-per-die; if we didn't have to do it we might do it anyway to save money. The shipyards and ASAT/OSRCT are actually not that far off from the cost-per-die you'd get if you just took our whole budget and divided it by the number of dice we roll, so those aren't really a problem for us to fund either.

I think you're worrying about the wrong things here. I'm confident we can afford to finish the portal project by 2061Q4, barring truly insanely bad "this is the worst 3d100 roll you will get in several hundred tries" bad luck.

Good point, it seems that our issues is more on lack of dice than resources. Still it would be prudent to at least delay it by 2 Quarters until we complete all the Tendrils since the Progress is only around 180 reduced by a third.

I want to know, what is the effects of Yellow Zone Qualifications Initiatives to our labor? I noticed that it does not seem to add to our Metrics on the Q2 2058 turn.

Does it increase the amount of graduates we have for the next Plan? Also, does it open more recruitement options?
 
What do you think the items most important to have between now and Karachi are? Got a list? My list is:

1) Infernium Laser Refits (350 Progress) We're sailing large fleets into antiship missile infested waters
2) Orca/Hammerhead Wingmen (550+400 Progress) Antisubmarine warfare and volume of air support are both key
3) SADN Phase 3 (975 Progress) Strategic weapons are not out of the question, we need this anyway, likely Plan goal next turn
4) Ground Forces Zone Armor, 3+ Factories At Least (600+ Progress) We need at least enough to equip a corps or two...
5) Advanced ECCM Development and Rollout (??? Progress) To increase the effect of all our munitions and decrease theirs
6) Stealth Disruptor Development and Rollout (??? Progress) Because unleashing this by surprise would be a good way to disrupt all existing Nod plans and defensive arrangements, which is a good thing to be doing right before you launch a major attack

Highly desirable:
7) Zone Defender Revision (40 Progress) Makes the above Zone Armor factories cheaper or more productive
8) Ferro Aluminum Armor Refits (350 Progress) Not a Karachi prerequisite, but if we won't do it in 2062, when?
9) GD-3 Development and Rollout (??? Progress) Our infantry will be facing biomonsters. They won't all be in Zone Armor.
10) Ultralight Glide Munitions Dev & Rollout (??? Progress) Standoff munitions good when attacking defended enemy coast
To repeat what I said on Discord, I would argue in favour of at least a small deployment (1 factory) of Guardian Mark 2s as necessary to support a Zone Armour rollout and effectively give them operational mobility. Even if we do no other vehicle revisions, we need to get this done.

Also, not to imply that this list is necessarily a hard statement of build priority, but we should give greater priority to things that are listed as (High Priority) - the military aren't idiots, so if projects are listed as such it's because they are presently a genuine area of greater concern. Like, let's not get too wrapped up in knots about this - assume the generals, admirals, etc know what they need.
 
Good point, it seems that our issues is more on lack of dice than resources. Still it would be prudent to at least delay it by 2 Quarters until we complete all the Tendrils since the Progress is only around 180 reduced by a third.
No, because it's at least plausible that the project will take more than two dice to complete. Whereas it is absurdly unlikely (if not strictly impossible) that it will take more than three.

So the best balance of "don't waste funds" and "be sure to actually finish the project in a timely manner" is found by starting to roll one die per turn in 2061Q2 and continuing until completion. This balance is therefore what we should take if we can afford to do it- and we can.

Remember, our budget for next turn is roughly 1020 R. We have 54 dice to roll, including Erewhon but not including Bureaucracy dice. As a matter of basic arithmetic, we can afford an average budget of 18.89 R/die. In practice, this means we can afford to do lots and lots of 10-20 R/die actions, and still have a few hundred R left over in the discretionary budget for things like portals (which cost about 80 R more than average to activate), Anadyr (30 R more), and Bergen or tendril development (10 R more). We can further economize with moves like not activating Light Industry or Service dice, or putting Erewhon or Free dice on Bureaucracy.

But basically, eight dice on tendrils (enough to be 95% sure of finishing Phase 1 and adding +90 R to next turn's discretionary budget) costs us about 80 R out of that discretionary budget. A single portal die also costs about 80 R. Two Anadyr dice cost about 60 R. And so it goes.

There is room in the discretionary budget for portals, it is very likely. I might turn out to be wrong, but I don't expect to.

To repeat what I said on Discord, I would argue in favour of at least a small deployment (1 factory) of Guardian Mark 2s as necessary to support a Zone Armour rollout and effectively give them operational mobility. Even if we do no other vehicle revisions, we need to get this done.
It's worth considering, but I think the proper way to handle this goes like:

1) Finish a Zone Armor factory in 2061Q4 or 2062Q1.
2) Look at the textual feedback we get.
3) OPTIONAL: Develop Light Combat Laser and/or Ferro-Aluminum Armor
4) Develop Guardian Mk II some time around 2062Q2 or 'Q3
5) Build a factory or two in late 2062 or early 2063.

I'm not putting it on the list because we haven't, in-thread, seen Steps 1 and 2 yet, and Step 1 is something I'm planning to do anyway.

If the military thinks it's that big of a deal, this will become apparent before the lack of the tech becomes a problem.

Also, not to imply that this list is necessarily a hard statement of build priority, but we should give greater priority to things that are listed as (High Priority) - the military aren't idiots, so if projects are listed as such it's because they are presently a genuine area of greater concern. Like, let's not get too wrapped up in knots about this - assume the generals, admirals, etc know what they need.
True, but the generals may not be listing "High Priority" in the same sense of "is this specifically going to focus us in on Eastern Paris." For instance, standoff munitions for the Air Force in general may not preoccupy them quite as much as they should if they were specifically focusing around the need to hit targets in Nod India without coming into range of Nod SAM sites.

Also, with that said...

Right now, here is the list of priorities:

Ablative Plating Stage 5 (we just finished this stage, if more is required we'll deal with that later)
Skywatch Telescope System (we are literally working on this right now)
Railgun Munitions (we are literally working on this right now)
ASAT Phase 4 (will be done by 2062 as a Plan commitment)
Escort Carrier Shipyards (will be done by 2062 as a Plan commitment)
Mastodon Heavy Assault Walker (will be done by 2062 as a Plan commitment)
Shark-class Frigate Shipyards (will be done by 2062, though not a Plan commitment)
Wingman Drones (the parts we haven't already completed are on my list)
Ground Forces Zone Armor (on my list)

So yeah. Everything the military has as of now asked us to prioritize is already either on my list, or going to get done before my list even becomes relevant.

If the military changes their priorities in the future, that's one thing... But if you're telling me "we should give greater priority to things that are listed as High Priority..." Well, I am literally incapable of doing better than I already am, for purposes of my current list. Everything that we aren't already planning to do before 2061Q4, and that is listed as High Priority, is already on my list of "please please do this before Karachi."
 
3) OPTIONAL: Develop Light Combat Laser and/or Ferro-Aluminum Armor
Well, the latter isn't (as far as I can tell anyway) required for Guardian 2, I don't think. That's more retrofitting the designs to existing vehicle assembly, it's a developed tech already. Guardian Mark 2 should (again, I think) have FA armour baked in if it's considered worth it.

So yeah. Everything the military has as of now asked us to prioritize is already either on my list, or going to get done before my list even becomes relevant.

If the military changes their priorities in the future, that's one thing... But if you're telling me "we should give greater priority to things that are listed as High Priority..." Well, I am literally incapable of doing better than I already am, for purposes of my current list. Everything that we aren't already planning to do before 2061Q4, and that is listed as High Priority, is already on my list of "please please do this before Karachi."
To clarify I meant in the sense of "projects on your proposed shortlist that are marked High Priority should be considered as such," sorry about miscommunicating that. I agree with the prioritization as proposed, I just think that when it comes time we shouldn't get fancy with it and we should use that tag as a guideline for what on the shortlist needs building first.

My hope is that if we focus efforts on that shortlist (and presuming that thread chatter can to an extent be taken as the Treasury working out priorities in-universe), the military can be clued in on what we're preparing for and somewhat adjust their own projections to assist. Like obviously they have their bugbears and priorities in a general sense, but priorities are going to be partially informed by operational needs - if they figure we're doing a buildup for taking a run at Karachi, they can assess what that would entail and perhaps shift some things up or down the queue.
 
Well, the latter isn't (as far as I can tell anyway) required for Guardian 2, I don't think. That's more retrofitting the designs to existing vehicle assembly, it's a developed tech already. Guardian Mark 2 should (again, I think) have FA armour baked in if it's considered worth it.

@Ithillid , we're talking about ferro-aluminum Nod-style armor here. Is Strunkriidiisk's assessment correct?

To clarify I meant in the sense of "projects on your proposed shortlist that are marked High Priority should be considered as such," sorry about miscommunicating that. I agree with the prioritization as proposed, I just think that when it comes time we shouldn't get fancy with it and we should use that tag as a guideline for what on the shortlist needs building first.
Ahh. Well, the big caveat there is that these projects are considered High Priority by different branches.

For instance, it's unclear whether the Space Force's High Priority project is on co-equal importance with the Navy's High Priority project at any given time; a lot depends on how well the Navy versus the Space Force are doing.

For instance, suppose the Air Force wants Orca wingman drones as its High Priority. Suppose the Navy wants laser refits as its High Priority. Which is more important? Are they co-equal in importance?

Likewise, part of the reason I'm advocating the GD-3 despite it not being High Priority is because developing and manufacturing infantry rifles is likely to be a low cost-per-die project, which makes it a good thing to do in 2062 that nonetheless helps us prepare for Karachi in a useful manner.

Whereas projects like Stealth Disruptors (which will almost certainly take on High Priority status once we develop them, much as stealth detectors did) are likely to be costly per die, so we want to do the deployment work later, in 2063, so that the rollout can be kept quiet as a secret and unleashed on the enemy during Eastern Paris.

So it gets complicated.
 
True, but the generals may not be listing "High Priority" in the same sense of "is this specifically going to focus us in on Eastern Paris."
The Generals are not giving you the Eastern Paris shortlist, especially not right now. Most of the listed projects are primarily oriented towards winning a global conflict and making sure more of our guys get home. It is focused on winning in Siberia, winning in America, winning in Africa, not so much winning in India.
For instance, standoff munitions for the Air Force in general may not preoccupy them quite as much as they should if they were specifically focusing around the need to hit targets in Nod India without coming into range of Nod SAM sites.
And this is a good example. In terms of general use, right now, glide munitions are a bit specialized, because across most of the world, it is IR missiles that are the big threat, and more specifically IR missiles that are in hidden positions, protecting other hidden positions.
3) OPTIONAL: Develop Light Combat Laser and/or Ferro-Aluminum Armor
You have already developed the Ferro Aluminum, and it will be on as standard in any project that can use it.
 
Hey uh @Ithillid, @sunrise and whoever else does science for this quest, are we going to get Van Allen radiation belt mega engineering projects like what is described in this video:



I'm asking cause some of the stuff mentioned in that video is something we could build on the upper end of our Orbital Industrial capacity right now if we had the tech for it.
 
1) Infernium Laser Refits (350 Progress) We're sailing large fleets into antiship missile infested waters
2) Orca/Hammerhead Wingmen (550+400 Progress) Antisubmarine warfare and volume of air support are both key
3) SADN Phase 3 (975 Progress) Strategic weapons are not out of the question, we need this anyway, likely Plan goal next turn
4) Ground Forces Zone Armor, 3+ Factories At Least (600+ Progress) We need at least enough to equip a corps or two...
5) Advanced ECCM Development and Rollout (??? Progress) To increase the effect of all our munitions and decrease theirs
6) Stealth Disruptor Development and Rollout (??? Progress) Because unleashing this by surprise would be a good way to disrupt all existing Nod plans and defensive arrangements, which is a good thing to be doing right before you launch a major attack

Highly desirable:
7) Zone Defender Revision (40 Progress) Makes the above Zone Armor factories cheaper or more productive
8) Ferro Aluminum Armor Refits (350 Progress) Not a Karachi prerequisite, but if we won't do it in 2062, when?
9) GD-3 Development and Rollout (??? Progress) Our infantry will be facing biomonsters. They won't all be in Zone Armor.
10) Ultralight Glide Munitions Dev & Rollout (??? Progress) Standoff munitions good when attacking defended enemy coast

Now, the problem is that all by itself, this gives us a pretty full docket for work to do between now and, say, 2063Q4.
You might want to count up the (likely) number of dice needed for this. I think you are strongly underestimating just how much Military stuff we can pump out in one year.
I would be surprised if this list wasn't completable before 2063.
(I'd count it up myself, but I was camping all weekend, and I'm just trying to catch on stuff still.)
 
You might want to count up the (likely) number of dice needed for this. I think you are strongly underestimating just how much Military stuff we can pump out in one year.
I would be surprised if this list wasn't completable before 2063.
(I'd count it up myself, but I was camping all weekend, and I'm just trying to catch on stuff still.)

Fortunately for you, I finished my camping the weekend before last and am all caught up.

1) Infernium Laser Refits (350 Progress) We're sailing large fleets into antiship missile infested waters
2) Orca/Hammerhead Wingmen (550+400 Progress) Antisubmarine warfare and volume of air support are both key
3) SADN Phase 3 (975 Progress) Strategic weapons are not out of the question, we need this anyway, likely Plan goal next turn
4) Ground Forces Zone Armor, 3+ Factories At Least (600+ Progress) We need at least enough to equip a corps or two...
5) Advanced ECCM Development and Rollout (??? Progress) To increase the effect of all our munitions and decrease theirs
6) Stealth Disruptor Development and Rollout (??? Progress) Because unleashing this by surprise would be a good way to disrupt all existing Nod plans and defensive arrangements, which is a good thing to be doing right before you launch a major attack

Highly desirable:
7) Zone Defender Revision (40 Progress) Makes the above Zone Armor factories cheaper or more productive
8) Ferro Aluminum Armor Refits (350 Progress) Not a Karachi prerequisite, but if we won't do it in 2062, when?
9) GD-3 Development and Rollout (??? Progress) Our infantry will be facing biomonsters. They won't all be in Zone Armor.
10) Ultralight Glide Munitions Dev & Rollout (??? Progress) Standoff munitions good when attacking defended enemy coast

1) Infernium Laser Refits: 0/450 ~6 Dice, 180 R
2) A) Orca Wingmen: 0/550 ~7 Dice, 140 R
B) Hammerhead Wingmen: 0/400 ~5 Dice, 100 R
3) SADN Phase 1-3: 0/975 ~13 Dice, 260 R
4) Ground Forces Zone Armor: 0/200 X3 ~9 Dice, 180 R (Current Value, Zone Defender Revision may lower costs)
5) A) Advanced ECCM Development: 0/40 1 Die, 20 R
B) Advanced ECCM Deployment: 0/400?? ~5 Dice, 100?? R
6) A) Stealth Disruptor Development: 0/40 1 Die, 15 R
B) Stealth Disruptor Deployment: 0/400?? ~5 Dice, 75?? R
7) Zone Defender Revision: 0/40 1 Die, 15 R
8) Ferro Aluminum Armor Refits: 0/350 ~5 Dice, 25 R
9) A) GD-3 Development: 0/30 1 Die, 10 R
B) GD-3 Deployment: 0/300?? ~4 Dice, 40?? R
10) A) Ultralight Glide Munitions Development: 0/40 1 Die, 10 R
B) Ultralight Glide Munitions Deployment: 0/400?? ~5 Dice, 50?? R

Total Simon List Dice: 6+7+5+13+9+1+5+1+5+1+5+1+4+1+5 = 69 Dice

Plus Current Required/Semi Required Projects
Required:
1) ASAT Phase 4: 36/220 ~2 Dice, 40 R
2) OSRCT Phase 3-4: 5/690 ~9 Dice, 180 R
3) URLS Phase 3: 0/200 ~3 Dice, 45 R
4) Railgun Munitions Development: 38/60 1 Die, 10 R
5) A) Carrier Yard New York/Dublin: 0/240 X2 ~6 Dice, 120 R
B) Carrier Yard Nagoya: 171/240 ~1 Die, 20 R
6) Mastodon Deployment: 100?? X2?? ~3 Dice, 60 R

Total Required Dice: 2+9+3+1+6+1+3 = 25 Dice

Semi-Required:
1) Skywatch Telescope System: 64/95 1 Die, 10 R
2) Shark Class Frigate Shipyard Seattle: 0/300 ~4 Dice, 80 R
3) Light Combat Laser Development: 0/40 1 Die, 25 R

Total Semi-Required Dice: 1+4+1 = 6 Dice

Total: 69+25+6 = 100 Dice (No idea how this got such an even number, I swear I didn't plan that)

100 Dice / 8 Dice/Turn = 12.5 Turns

So if we didn't put any Free Dice in Military, something that is highly unlikely to happen, we will complete all the listed projects on average in 3 years from the current time. IE that docket will be complete during Q1 2064, the first quarter of the third year of the next plan.

If we had an average of 4 Free dice in military instead:

100 Dice / 12 Dice/Turn = 8.333 Turns

If we continue our current average Free Dice investment in Military we will finish in the first quarter of 2063.
 
It isn't too bad but I would like to point out that if we are doing Karachi then we should probably get started on some of the offensive ships like the Assault Ship. Also we should keep plinking away at hull projects cause that's what gets the ships on the water(though the projects are good)
 
That might be going a bit too far. We'd never get the prep done if we want to include that as well.
Thankfully, we shouldn't really need to. Karachi is about building a bastion in Pakistan, not about an all out assault on India.
 
That might be going a bit too far. We'd never get the prep done if we want to include that as well.
Thankfully, we shouldn't really need to. Karachi is about building a bastion in Pakistan, not about an all out assault on India.
Fair though I am somewhat reluctant to stop investing in hulls but after Karachi we probably will have to anyway so it works out I suppose.
 
Fortunately for you, I finished my camping the weekend before last and am all caught up.



1) Infernium Laser Refits: 0/450 ~6 Dice, 180 R
2) A) Orca Wingmen: 0/550 ~7 Dice, 140 R
B) Hammerhead Wingmen: 0/400 ~5 Dice, 100 R
3) SADN Phase 1-3: 0/975 ~13 Dice, 260 R
4) Ground Forces Zone Armor: 0/200 X3 ~9 Dice, 180 R (Current Value, Zone Defender Revision may lower costs)
5) A) Advanced ECCM Development: 0/40 1 Die, 20 R
B) Advanced ECCM Deployment: 0/400?? ~5 Dice, 100?? R
6) A) Stealth Disruptor Development: 0/40 1 Die, 15 R
B) Stealth Disruptor Deployment: 0/400?? ~5 Dice, 75?? R
7) Zone Defender Revision: 0/40 1 Die, 15 R
8) Ferro Aluminum Armor Refits: 0/350 ~5 Dice, 25 R
9) A) GD-3 Development: 0/30 1 Die, 10 R
B) GD-3 Deployment: 0/300?? ~4 Dice, 40?? R
10) A) Ultralight Glide Munitions Development: 0/40 1 Die, 10 R
B) Ultralight Glide Munitions Deployment: 0/400?? ~5 Dice, 50?? R

Total Simon List Dice: 6+7+5+13+9+1+5+1+5+1+5+1+4+1+5 = 69 Dice

Plus Current Required/Semi Required Projects
Required:
1) ASAT Phase 4: 36/220 ~2 Dice, 40 R
2) OSRCT Phase 3-4: 5/690 ~9 Dice, 180 R
3) URLS Phase 3: 0/200 ~3 Dice, 45 R
4) Railgun Munitions Development: 38/60 1 Die, 10 R
5) A) Carrier Yard New York/Dublin: 0/240 X2 ~6 Dice, 120 R
B) Carrier Yard Nagoya: 171/240 ~1 Die, 20 R
6) Mastodon Deployment: 100?? X2?? ~3 Dice, 60 R

Total Required Dice: 2+9+3+1+6+1+3 = 25 Dice

Semi-Required:
1) Skywatch Telescope System: 64/95 1 Die, 10 R
2) Shark Class Frigate Shipyard Seattle: 0/300 ~4 Dice, 80 R
3) Light Combat Laser Development: 0/40 1 Die, 25 R

Total Semi-Required Dice: 1+4+1 = 6 Dice

Total: 69+25+6 = 100 Dice (No idea how this got such an even number, I swear I didn't plan that)

100 Dice / 8 Dice/Turn = 12.5 Turns

So if we didn't put any Free Dice in Military, something that is highly unlikely to happen, we will complete all the listed projects on average in 3 years from the current time. IE that docket will be complete during Q1 2064, the first quarter of the third year of the next plan.

If we had an average of 4 Free dice in military instead:

100 Dice / 12 Dice/Turn = 8.333 Turns

If we continue our current average Free Dice investment in Military we will finish in the first quarter of 2063.
That's broadly in line with my own somewhat rougher estimates. I didn't want to assume heavy Free Dice investment, because I really think we should step back a little from twelve dice per turn to more like ten or nine even.

Remember that categories like Tiberium and Orbital are vital to long term human survival!

Also, many of these projects are so expensive per die (or likely to be) that it will be difficult or impossible to carry them out full-force in 2062. This may impose further delays.

But yeah, this is still a quite substantial docket and since these surely aren't the only things we'd be doing, squeezing them all in could be a challenge.

It isn't too bad but I would like to point out that if we are doing Karachi then we should probably get started on some of the offensive ships like the Assault Ship. Also we should keep plinking away at hull projects cause that's what gets the ships on the water(though the projects are good)
The problem with the assault ships is that if we design the hulls now and build (some of) the shipyards in, realistically, early 2062, it's unclear whether there will be a strategically relevant number of hulls in the water when we hit GO KARACHI time. With the escort carriers we at least know we can get one wave of hulls into the water from each shipyard before the balloon goes up. I'm not clear on how long the assault ships are likely to take to build.

It's worth at least designing the things so we can plan, and maybe doing a yard or two, but I didn't want to put it in my must-do list, because if we've done all this other stuff I'll feel comfy going ahead without the assault ships... But if we haven't done the bulk of this other stuff, I won't feel comfy even if we do have them.

Fair though I am somewhat reluctant to stop investing in hulls but after Karachi we probably will have to anyway so it works out I suppose.
I think that for at least a year or two we can afford to focus on projects that help the Navy, things like tech upgrades and Advanced ECCM, which will improve their capabilities indirectly, then finish the offensive navy projects starting some time in 2063.
 
The major things we *need* for Karachi, as far as the Navy goes, are 1) enough escort carriers and frigates to cover shipping and other duties, such that we can free up capital ships, and 2) the Regency War to be over.

Also, I don't believe our military planners are seriously looking at Karachi right now, since the situation after the end of the Regency War will likely be sufficiently different that they'd have to do their work all over again, anyway.
 
Fair though I am somewhat reluctant to stop investing in hulls but after Karachi we probably will have to anyway so it works out I suppose.
Agree, but I can't see any further shipyards being built until the second half of the next Plan, which should be after we claim Karachi.

As mentioned by Lightwhispers above, the only reason we didn't claim Karachi during the War was because the Navy would have been overstretched.
While there are a lot of things we could do in preparation, there are only really a few things that we need to do, and most of those are locked in as Plan Goals anyway.
All of the other projects are force multipliers for the assault, or additional protection against reprisal attacks.
We likely don't need to turtle this.
 
The major things we *need* for Karachi, as far as the Navy goes, are 1) enough escort carriers and frigates to cover shipping and other duties, such that we can free up capital ships, and 2) the Regency War to be over.

Also, I don't believe our military planners are seriously looking at Karachi right now, since the situation after the end of the Regency War will likely be sufficiently different that they'd have to do their work all over again, anyway.
The main issue is that we're going to be in pitched battle with Nod India in a way we really haven't been with the other warlords, because we're going to be opening up a whole new front against Nod for the first time in a very, very long time.

So significant military upgrades before we take them on seem in order. This is especially true because Nod India will likely have ample access to the intelligence reports of the Regency War despite relatively little direct participation (since everyone goes to them for biomonsters). They think they have our measure, and we haven't done enough damage to them with Steel Vanguard to reduce their capacity to meet the forces they think we can unleash on them.

We will need to surprise them with our capabilities, and be prepared to defend ourselves against massive attacks as Nod India points everything they have at us and at least temporarily mashes the "GO AWAY" button as hard as they can.

Agree, but I can't see any further shipyards being built until the second half of the next Plan, which should be after we claim Karachi.

As mentioned by Lightwhispers above, the only reason we didn't claim Karachi during the War was because the Navy would have been overstretched.
While there are a lot of things we could do in preparation, there are only really a few things that we need to do, and most of those are locked in as Plan Goals anyway.
All of the other projects are force multipliers for the assault, or additional protection against reprisal attacks.
We likely don't need to turtle this.
Turtle, no, prepare, yes. Nod India is assured to have some secret weapons we haven't planned for; we need to have secret weapons they haven't planned for.
 
The problem with the assault ships is that if we design the hulls now and build (some of) the shipyards in, realistically, early 2062, it's unclear whether there will be a strategically relevant number of hulls in the water when we hit GO KARACHI time. With the escort carriers we at least know we can get one wave of hulls into the water from each shipyard before the balloon goes up. I'm not clear on how long the assault ships are likely to take to build.
Counterpoint - strategically relevant numbers is unimportant. Right now, we're using converted barges and merchantmen to stage amphibious operations on and have been since at least the mid 2050s. Any number of proper amphib ships for Karachi means fewer conversions sitting off the coast getting fucked. And given how much of an argument was raised in thread over temporarily using converted merchantmen to cover the gap until we have proper escort carriers because we're cruelly throwing away more lives with conversions, you'd think there'd be a bigger drive to get proper ships to any extent for Karachi.

I guess much like pre-TW3 Treasury, not many really care for amphib assault ships or their crews unless the Quest itself puts neon blinking lights on it as being a crisis?
 
Counterpoint - strategically relevant numbers is unimportant. Right now, we're using converted barges and merchantmen to stage amphibious operations on and have been since at least the mid 2050s. Any number of proper amphib ships for Karachi means fewer conversions sitting off the coast getting fucked. And given how much of an argument was raised in thread over temporarily using converted merchantmen to cover the gap until we have proper escort carriers because we're cruelly throwing away more lives with conversions, you'd think there'd be a bigger drive to get proper ships to any extent for Karachi.

I guess much like pre-TW3 Treasury, not many really care for amphib assault ships or their crews unless the Quest itself puts neon blinking lights on it as being a crisis?
"Oh, I guess nobody cares about our sailors and soldiers' LIVES!" is the kind of thing that normally causes me to reflexively vote against whatever is being suggested, out of spite. Because to me, it registers as an attempt to manipulate me.

But I figure you're being sincere, not manipulative. So let's please engage with the case on its merits.

Your argument is that getting the amphibs ready is an important part of preparing for Karachi. Well and good. So are a bunch of other things. Now, I am totally fine with you giving me a chance to convince me. It is not, a priori, a bad idea at all! It makes intuitive sense.

Can you maybe do some legwork about gathering what we've already been told in-thread about the amphibious assault ships? About our current amphibious assault capabilities, such as they are (probably want to focus on the battle for the YZ-5a MARV hub there)?

At the same time, I hope you can recognize and maybe try to address some of the relevant questions. The big one is time. If we do start work as soon as realistically plausible, how many ships will be available by a reasonable benchmark 'GO' date for Karachi? How impactful are these ships likely to be? Remember that if we are doing this, we aren't doing something else, and that something else might conceivably be even more impactful. It might directly help us beat Nod in the Karachi campaign, or it might help us keep the rest of Nod off our backs while the campaign is going on, or it might do a number of things.

So we do at least need to try to establish the rough parameters of what we can hope to get out of the action and how quickly, and what existing capabilities it would replace, before deciding what else it bumps out of priority.
 
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