I recall there was discussion in the past about isolinear chips helping us help Erewhon. There was a lot of urgency about it at the time, but that seems to have faded. Are we no longer worried about Erewhon's stability/usefulness? Or have other projects just become more urgent?
Plans are consistently chipping dice into the project, I see, but no surge type plans like I expected. Is it just too expensive?
Partly the expense, and partly that as far as we know, we have a bit of time.Plans are consistently chipping dice into the project, I see, but no surge type plans like I expected. Is it just too expensive?
A few things. A reroll was spent that stabilised Erewhon somewhat, and the superconductors and isolinear chips are already available in tiny quantities by the standards of the total economy but enough to assist ErewhonI recall there was discussion in the past about isolinear chips helping us help Erewhon. There was a lot of urgency about it at the time, but that seems to have faded. Are we no longer worried about Erewhon's stability/usefulness? Or have other projects just become more urgent?
Plans are consistently chipping dice into the project, I see, but no surge type plans like I expected. Is it just too expensive?
A few things. A reroll was spent that stabilised Erewhon somewhat, and the superconductors and isolinear chips are already available in tiny quantities by the standards of the total economy but enough to assist Erewhon
Q2 2060 Results, from when we developed the chips:Oh yes, I forgot about that. Probably no need to worry it will be neglected, given its mandatory.
Oh really? Well, that does change things. I didn't know we had a trickle of isolinear chips already. Is that from the research we did originally?
One of the first beneficiaries has in fact been Erewhon. With its limited need for support, the first isolinear fabricator has been dedicated to its needs, and has started slowly replacing silicon and germanium with pieces of isolinear quartz. While this has not improved its overall stability, it does seem to have given it marginal improvements in its ability to conduct operations.
Free Dice are going to be in heavy demand to:My preliminary numbers (that I will double check) indicate that if we split Chicago between Infra and HI, and apply a modest amount of Free Dice, it won't be a problem. (20/2 for Chicago, 2 for Suborbital 1, 9 for the next phases of Fortress Towns and Rail, 3 for the remaining Apartments = 24, and we have 24 available.)
When we do have projects in Infrastructure that we don't want to ignore, that makes it quite clear that Free dice are worth using here. We'll have 28 Free dice available, so I see no issues with allocating 4 for the rest of the Plan.
This mainly works because my assessment of HI is that we don't actually need to go big. Suzuka and Chicago on top of Anadyr and Industrial Lasers is pretty decent.
Erewhon doesn't actually need that many chips. The tiny prototype plants we've had for some time now seem to have been enough to get the job done. Anadyr produces on a much larger scale so we can do many more things with isolinear chips than just a handful of prototype computers, space probes, and Erewhon's main processor core.I recall there was discussion in the past about isolinear chips helping us help Erewhon. There was a lot of urgency about it at the time, but that seems to have faded. Are we no longer worried about Erewhon's stability/usefulness? Or have other projects just become more urgent?
Plans are consistently chipping dice into the project, I see, but no surge type plans like I expected. Is it just too expensive?
Also a factor. Though North Boston does produce +32 Capital Goods, which is nothing to sneeze at- it's just not as efficient as Nuuk. But having seen what even a rather... unfortunate... AI can do for us, I am sincerely interested in trying to work our way up that chain.I would like to hit most if not all the HI dev in the latter half of the coming year- opening up new and improved options to keep our industry growing while we also push out and finish actual production. Nuuk is bunches of cap goods so we might be able to roll out an advanced EVA or two at some point as well as offset the infra penalty from the arcology department, Boston is AI improvement. Both are useful. If we are looking at not finishing whichever we chose this plan than starting North Boston seems the better choice at 5R per die less we can continue next plan while doing our normal income recovery.
When the thread starts a project that expensive per-die, it always intends to finish it.Oh yes, I forgot about that. Probably no need to worry it will be neglected, given its mandatory.
@Ithillid , just to be very clear, is Erewhon still on a death timer? Because I think we collectively got the impression that he is not.Oh really? Well, that does change things. I didn't know we had a trickle of isolinear chips already. Is that from the research we did originally?
There is still a death timer. It is not particularly pressing, but there is still a death timer on the table.@Ithillid , just to be very clear, is Erewhon still on a death timer? Because I think we collectively got the impression that he is not.
Well I do imagine we will get both done it is just the order that is the question. Which North Boston is likely easier to fit in for a project that rolls over into next plan.Also a factor. Though North Boston does produce +32 Capital Goods, which is nothing to sneeze at- it's just not as efficient as Nuuk. But having seen what even a rather... unfortunate... AI can do for us, I am sincerely interested in trying to work our way up that chain.
I've got free dice on extra housing (existing dice can complete Chicago), free dice on extra power, free dice on boosting LCI, free dice on more food, free dice for the Leopard II factory, free dice for new Apollos.I do not think it wise for us to, in effect, commit Free Dice to Heavy Industry and Infrastructure for the sole purpose of committing ourselves to completing Chicago Phase 5 by the end of 2061, just because we theoretically could do so.
...Ah.There is still a death timer. It is not particularly pressing, but there is still a death timer on the table.
Erewhon's current stats are
Friendliness: 39
Stability: 12
Capability: 29
12 is still in the death timer range, but it is still a good few years.
How would North Boston be helpful with that? Nuuk combined with the power plants required to run it takes less Progress than North Boston takes to generate an equivalent amount of Capital Goods.With any luck Boston will also allow us to build some Energy cushion.
Can I see your breakdown? Because I'm a bit skeptical that you're managing to fit everything in smoothly.I've got free dice on extra housing (existing dice can complete Chicago), free dice on extra power, free dice on boosting LCI, free dice on more food, free dice for the Leopard II factory, free dice for new Apollos.
We have a ton of free dice...
So, I have been getting questions both here and on the discord about the Lancer and what it is supposed to do. And the answer is a bit complicated. Because the lancer serves in multiple roles. To begin with, it is starting the path down towards infantry energy weapons. Beyond that, it is also an expansion of what the zone troopers can do.
On the immediate tactical level, the Lancer is intended to be a high endurance supplement and replacement for missile teams. An accurate and powerful means of telling an armored fighting vehicle that, well, "we don't like your kind here"
More broadly, the Zonification project is by far the most expensive project Ground Forces is likely to ever give you. And that is because they are not simply "infantry but better" but instead a fundamental redesign of what infantry can do. Yes, they are still intended to screen armor, but they are also intended to maraud on their own, to pressure the enemy in independent offensive operations, and fight in high intensity close quarters battle. While they might well not be able to produce the same kind of elemental shock that Battletech showed, they fight fundamentally differently than foot infantry does for most of the zone troopers. More mobile, more agile, less constrained by weight.
Well, what it comes down to is that we build as much fusion power as we need and probably shouldn't stress too much. Hopefully we can squeeze in enough Bergen to make advances in fusion power a possibility and get a bit more efficiency out of the process.@Simon_Jester My thinking was use 1-2 HI dice (maybe Free dice) per Quarter for Fusion and the rest for Boston, so we could complete 1-2 stages of Fusion by the time we complete Boston 5.
Re-reading the above, though, i'm starting to realise that we are better off using that approach for Nuuk 4 and then figure out next step.
Caloric reclamation and Chicago Phase 4 fill this up and, if anything, put is into negative dice (read: Free dice required to fulfill all targets, so something's gotta give)Still pretty rough, but here it is:
Infrastructure
We have 24 dice. We don't need to complete anything (although Chicago 4 does fill a goal).
9 dice to finish existing Fortress Towns, plus an extra one, and a Rail Construction phase.
2 dice to get basic Suborbital Shuttle for BZ 18.
3 dice to finish Apartments phase 4.
Which leaves 6 dice.
Three dice for fusion is grossly over-optimistic. We're going to need at least one more phase to power the shipyards, and either one more or a LOT of ion storm power retrofitting to power other stuff, and then maybe the rest can come from odds and ends. Also, if we're budgeting for Chicago Phase 4, then at least one Heavy Industry die for that.Heavy Industry
We have 20 dice. Unknown exactly how much we need for Plan commitments, but I'm approximating as 3 for Anadyr, 3 for Industrial Lasers, and 3 for more Fusion (cos we always need more). So 9.
We want Suzuka, which is 2-3.
Which leaves 8-9 dice.
Bergen Phase 3 may be more impactful than Reykjavik Phase 5, in that we are hard pressed to keep up with the need for fusion power. Efficiencies in superconductor output would really help, though at Phase 2 we can at least hope Bergen's output is sufficient to permit prototyping of our next-generation fusion reactor. Also, finishing Reykjavik can in theory wait until a turn or three into 2062 without disaster; we CAN start building Zone Armor without it and frankly we should. We've waited more than long enough, and if we haven't made any progress by reapportionment, we're likely to get a horribly punitive requirement like "must build 1800 Progress worth of factories" on top of a lot of other commitments.Light and Chemical Industry
We have 20. No plan commitments.
I think that finishing Reykjavik would be good for Zone Armor (and Ground Forces asking for Havocs) next Plan, which needs 17 dice.
Civilian Drones is good, and needs 4 dice.
So that would need 1 free dice.
Especially if caloric reclamation under Infrastructure pans out, we may actually not be overcommitted here and we may be able to just do enough with the 16 Agriculture dice... but yeah, it could become an area demanding Free dice.Agriculture
We have 16 dice. Plan commitments are cursed, so assuming we'll use all of them.
But we'll want more food anyway, so I'm assigning a free dice per turn here anyway, for a total of 4 dice used.
Fair enough- obvious candidates for completion are ion storm power retrofitting for our Red Zone operations, and also Red Zone Border Offensives.Tiberium
We have 28 dice. No specific needs if we get Chicago 4. Income goal would be hard to miss.
At minimum I want to see Tendrils phase 2, for 15 dice total; and the RZ Inhibitor, for 2 dice.
We then have another 11 dice to chase whatever with. So no free dice needed.
We can hope, at least.Orbital
We have 24 dice. Plan commitments eat up approximately all of them.
But I really like the look of the Leopard II Yard, and assigning a few free dice stops bad rolls causing missed targets, so 4 free dice assigned here.
I do doubt we'll use Free dice here.Services
We have 20 dice.
Completing a feel good project like Professional Sports Programs eats 4 dice.
NOD Research Initiatives will take at most 3 dice, when it appears.
1 dice for Hallucinogen Development. Unsure if deployment would be in this category, but assume 2 dice.
Pinhole Prototypes could eat another 2 dice.
Only 12 dice used. Free dice unneeded.
See, here's the issue.Military
We have 32 dice. I think we need around 25 for Plan commitments.
I can list another 7 dice worth of projects that are likely needed and should happen. (Skywatch Telescope, Frigate Yards, Steel Talon's Plasma Gun, Hallucinogen Countermeasures)
So anything else is free dice.
Of the other options, I'd go with Apollo Factories and the ECCM / Stealth Disruptor. Likely taking around 6 dice, but I'll make it 8 dice.
That might seem a bit low, but our military is just bruised at the moment. The above 32 dice will fix most of the issues.
Essentially, the problem I see is that you've greatly underestimated our likely Energy needs for the overall Plan, and underestimated the demand on our Heavy Industry dice, which in turn causes you to expect more available dice for Chicago Phase 5 than is realistic. Also, Military is gonna draw a lot of Free dice; we may slow down to 9-11 dice per turn instead of 12 once the shipyard surge is over, but it's gonna be intense.So as far as Free dice usage goes, I've got:
6 in Infra, 1 in LCI, 4 in Agri, 4 in Orbital and 8 in Military, which is 27 total. We have 28 available.
I believe we'll be replacing all our frontline infantry units with Zone Armour. That being said, we're still likely to have rearline units/militia/etc as standard infantry for the foreseeable futureOut of curiosity. Do you see them as the end of traditional infantry units or merely an augmentation to existing force structures that will grow in size? Ie in the future there won't be anything but Zone troopers or the ratio will flip? Basically instead of there being a few Zone troops and mostly traditional infantry it'll be mostly Zone troops with some traditional infantry.
I have no data on this project. May not even be cost effective.
I beg your pardon...I think a more realistic estimate is eight dice for fusion, three for Anadyr, four for industrial lasers (simple tech, but we need a lot of them), three for Suzuka, one for Chicago Phase 4... is twenty.
I'm possibly off by one Fusion phase if the Ion Collectors aren't good.the problem I see is that you've greatly underestimated our likely Energy needs for the overall Plan
You are mixing up want and need.Apollo factories are low demand, but we have so goddamn much that could be or simply is important and isn't a plan commitment. The first one or two Zone Armor factories. SADN, oh God do we need SADN. Infernium laser refits for the Navy. Orca/Hammerhead refits, likewise for the Navy but also benefiting the rest of the military. Each of those could eat half a dozen or more dice and they're all high priority projects.
But that is a choice, not an actual requirement.Also, Military is gonna draw a lot of Free dice; we may slow down to 9-11 dice per turn instead of 12 once the shipyard surge is over, but it's gonna be intense.
Technically you are budgeting seven dice here.[] Plan Crap Rolls Downhill
-[] INFRASTRUCTURE 6/6 120R
-[] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 6) 220/300 1 die 20R 70%
-[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 3+4) 72/320 3 dice 30R 65%
-[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 1) 92/200 1 die 30R 42%
-[] [CRaP Reserves] 2 dice 40R?
Honestly, I would rather skip Suborbital Shuttles for this turn, and potentially a number of other things, to get two dice on Anadyr. If we only put one die on Anadyr, then we are forced to either accept a risk of wasting dice on some turn in 2061Q2 or later by rolling two and only needing one... Or to slow-walk at one die per turn and eventually be waiting nervously on the outcome of a single die roll in 2061Q4 to see whether we hit our Plan commitment or not. Not good.-[] HEAVY INDUSTRY 5/5 130R
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8) 67/300 4 dice 80R 96%
-[] Isolinear Chip Foundry Anadyr 85/320 1 die 50R
Real talk, we're likely to do Chicago Phase 4 in 2061Q2 or 'Q3. Unless the QM made a typo, I'm pretty sure that Chicago Phase 4 hits the tiberium refining target all by itself now. If true, then there's not much urgency in doing the refits, and you might as well consolidate the sixth die on vein mining.-[] TIBERIUM 7/7 130R
-[] Intensification of Green Zone Harvesting (Stage 7) 78/100 1 die 10R 100%
-[] Tiberium Processing Refits (Phase 5) 6/100 1 die 20R 61%
-[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 2+3) 5/385? 5 dice 100R 90%
Ahhh, now I see what all this is for. Frankly, I think if we DO find ourselves throwing four dice at research gachas, we should probably just skip the portal research. Delaying our future portal applications by three months may well be worth getting our gacha stuff three months earlier, and there's a lot else we can do with the budget.-[] SERVICES 220R
-[] Scrin Research Institutions 0/350 2 dice 60R
-[] NOD Research Initiatives 0/160 2 dice 60R 60%
-[] Pinhole Portal Early Primitive Prototype Construction 56/180 1 die 100R 19%
We should almost certainly consolidate the ASAT dice onto OSRCT, which is a much larger project and thus much more likely to be hard to finish quickly and reliably if we roll poorly.-[] MILITARY 8/8 + 2 195R
-[] Skywatch Telescope System 64/95 1 die 15R 100%
-[] Railgun Munitions Development 38/60 1 die 10R 100%
-[] Escort Carrier Shipyard (Nagoya) 171/240 1 die 20R 73%
-[] Escort Carrier Shipyard (Dublin) 0/240 3 dice 60R 54%
-[] Universal Rocket Launch System Deployment (Phase 3) 0/200 2 dice 30R 23%
-[] ASAT Defense System (Phase 4) 36/220 2 dice 40R 45%
-[] Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Stations (Phase 3) 5/295 1 die 20R
While candidly, I think we can give those security reviews a miss (or just concentrate both dice on Agriculture, because we do not want to miss anything)... I'm actually intrigued by your idea of putting Erewhon on the economic census. It does seem like just the sort of thing he'd be good at.-[] BUREAUCRACY 4/4 + 2 + Erewhon
-[] Conduct Economic Census DC 100/150/200/250, DC 250 4 dice + Erewhon 98%
-[] Security Reviews (Agriculture) 1 die 90%
-[] Security Reviews (Light & Chemical Industry) 1 die 90%
1020R
Yeah, but ignoring that it's going to exist leaves a hole in your plans.I have no data on this project. May not even be cost effective.
When it makes the difference between needing three more dice and needing 7-8, it's a pretty significant underestimate, because it knocks out four of the dice you were planning to Chicago with.I'm possibly off by one Fusion phase if the Ion Collectors aren't good.
Hardly a great underestimate.
(I had thought that there was an extra extra Fusion in the calculations somewhere, but apparently not. Oops.)
Apollos are not regularly "losing in skirmishes" due to inadequate quality, and drones are still being deployed to all theaters.You are mixing up want and need.
Ground Forces has some things marked as High Priority even when their confidence was off the chart.
Nobody flags projects outside if Military with (high priority) but that doesn't mean that the Military is more important.
And our Apollos are still losing in skirmishes, even with wingman drones. So I think they are more important than the Orca/Hammerhead wingman drones. (But only just.)
One of these things is, candidly, more likely to lead to alarming problems than the other, especially with Karachi coming up.But that is a choice, not an actual requirement.
Other than the annoying Energy miscalc, I don't see this as a big issue. We don't actually need things like Chicago 5 to complete before the end of the plan. We don't actually need to spend more than half of our free dice in Military.
How am I supposed to expect an Agri project to appear in Infrastructure?Yeah, but ignoring that it's going to exist leaves a hole in your plans.
Oh. I thought this was a model revision.Apollos with the wrong munitions are losing fights because they have the wrong weapons to harm the enemy. That won't really be fixed by increasing production. Apollos lack laser cannon and so have trouble engaging certain types of targets. That also won't really be fixed by increasing production. The Air Force has repeatedly told us that the extra Apollo factories aren't really the main thing they want or need.
We just went into a war with no Capitol Goods, that was also alarming.One of these things is, candidly, more likely to lead to alarming problems than the other, especially with Karachi coming up.
So, for GDI, there are a few groups that want Zone Armor to be the effective end of standard infantry units. But that is because GDI is sharply population limited in a number of significant ways, and Zone Troopers are far more survivable. But more broadly, no, I don't think it is going to be the endstate of all infantry units for everyone, because not everyone is GDI ground forces.Out of curiosity. Do you see them as the end of traditional infantry units or merely an augmentation to existing force structures that will grow in size? Ie in the future there won't be anything but Zone troopers or the ratio will flip? Basically instead of there being a few Zone troops and mostly traditional infantry it'll be mostly Zone troops with some traditional infantry.