Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

[Derpmind]

I thought the exact same thing. Last night, @Ithillid provided more information as to the cause of the progress requirements, and confirmed that they would actually go down in price if they were better supported.

ithillid:

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Huh. Well, regardless, we still want YZ Harvesting to take territory away from NOD. So even if the costs keep rising, as long as the military still wants us to support their pushes, we shouldn't stop yet. (And if we wait till after the war dies down, even if YZ Harvesting gets cheaper it'll be more difficult to do it.)

 

[Rakuhn]

We know that Steel Vanguard is dying down. But if we still want to support the military, I think GZ intensification, railgun harvesters, and Chicago are the better supporting options going forward.

Once we've completed those projects, I could see going back to YZ harvesting even if it hasn't decreased in cost. Although I suspect that we might want to wait until the start of the next plan to do so, to give more time for the costs to decrease.

 

[bigking321]

I still want to build the last phase of Arcologies. We know doing so will unlock an automatic building project to build Housing for us without us spending dice.

Click to shrink...

Huh.

I did not know that.

Well, that certainly sounds worthwhile then.

 

[doruma1920]

On the Current Expense of YZ Harvesting Vs MARV Hubs:

Category

Project

Current Progress

Progress Target

Cost Per Die

Dice Rounded

Total Cost

Income

Income Per Die

Income Per R

Total Mitigation

Mitigation Per Die

Mitigation Per R

Military

MARV Hub RZ

0​

335​

20​

4​

80​

25​

6.25​

0.3125​

3​

0.75​

0.0375​

Military

MARV Hub YZ

0​

335​

20​

4​

80​

15​

3.75​

0.1875​

3​

0.75​

0.0375​

Tiberium

Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting Phase 10

174​

350​

20​

2​

40​

7.5​

3.75​

0.1875​

3​

1.5​

0.075​

Military

MARV Hub BZ 1

39​

335​

20​

4​

80​

10​

2.5​

0.125​

2​

0.5​

0.025​

Military

MARV Hub BZ 2

58​

335​

20​

4​

80​

10​

2.5​

0.125​

2​

0.5​

0.025​

Military

MARV Hub BZ

0​

335​

20​

4​

80​

10​

2.5​

0.125​

2​

0.5​

0.025​

Tiberium

Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting Blank

0​

350​

20​

4​

80​

7.5​

1.875​

0.09375​

3​

0.75​

0.0375​

Even after factoring the current progress in YZ Tib Harvesting, RZ MARVs are still more effective at providing income on a per R and per Die basis. The current phase of YZ Tib Harvesting is roughly equivalent to YZ MARVs in those same terms, and beats the BZ MARV's entirely. In fact, the current phase is better at generating Mitigation on a per die and per R basis then any of the MARV Hubs, and a hypothetical blank YZ Tib Harvesting Phase is equivalent or better in that respect to the MARV Hubs. However, the blank phase of YZ Tib Harvesting is still worse at generating income on a per die and per R basis, in fact it is the worst of all currently available income generators on that basis.

 

[Void Stalker]

YZ harvesting is really to support the offensive. We have better options for mitigation and income. Getting back to GZ intensification as well next turn (and finish the current yz phase) would be a better balance and support for the wind down.

 

[Rakuhn]

Every phase of YZ Tib Harvesting also increases the progress costs. Which is how we've gone from a 100 progress target to a 350 progress target. It'll likely get worse if we continue to pursue it without first building the supporting infrastructure.

 

[Void Stalker]

Every phase of YZ Tib Harvesting also increases the progress costs. Which is how we've gone from a 100 progress target to a 350 progress target. It'll likely get worse if we continue to pursue it without first building the supporting infrastructure.

Click to shrink...

We are currently taking it for Steel Vanguard- and as it is I expect we want to push the current phase we are on as part of the wind down. Once we wind down though I doubt we will take YZ harvesting for a while as there are better options for mit and income.

 

[Lightwhispers]

We should use those Lazers to carve a big Global Defense Initiative logo into the Moon. I see no problems with this.

Click to shrink...

We have mines, bases, and a bunch of scientific probes on the Moon. I'm sure they would see problems with it.

We know that Steel Rain is dying down. But if we still want to support the military, I think GZ intensification, railgun harvesters, and Chicago are the better supporting options going forward.

Once we've completed those projects, I could see going back to YZ harvesting even if it hasn't decreased in cost. Although I suspect that we might want to wait until the start of the next plan to do so, to give more time for the costs to decrease.

Click to shrink...

We probably want to finish the phase of Fortress Towns we've started, to support territory-holding operations.
Also, Steel Vanguard, not Steel Rain.

 

[Rakuhn]

We have mines, bases, and a bunch of scientific probes on the Moon. I'm sure they would see problems with it.

We probably want to finish the phase of Fortress Towns we've started, to support territory-holding operations.
Also, Steel Vanguard, not Steel Rain.

Click to shrink...

I'm actually hoping that we'll be able to finish the next two waves of Fortress Towns, although I haven't mathed it out yet. That way we'll 'unlock' all of the currently available Green Zone Intensification phases (available = min(yz harvesting, fortress towns +2)). Once they, and the associated 4 phases of available green zone intensification, are completed, I think further phases of YZ harvesting are a lot more viable, and a lot less vulnerable to counterattack.

Thanks for pointing that I had the strategy name wrong, updated.

 

[Cerazor]

We have mines, bases, and a bunch of scientific probes on the Moon. I'm sure they would see problems with it.

Click to shrink...

Oh Yeah, Nah. They'll probably say "It's no biggie. Just do you, Bro."

 

[Model DC.14F]

We should use those Lazers to carve a big Global Defense Initiative logo into the Moon. I see no problems with this.

Click to shrink...

NOD: Oh, SURE, when we do cartoonishly evil schemes, you call us 'terrorists', 'zealots', 'insane', and 'misusing resources that could save lives for no practical benefit'. But when you carve your logo onto the Moon, it's fine.

Well, we'll carve the scorpion tail, INTO MARS! MWAHAHAHA!!!!

 

[DinoHank]

While we're not quite ready to start buildings MARVs just yet, I have some suggestions for when we start building them again. Based on the very helpful map provided by @Strunkriidiisk I've identified three "campaigns" of MARV deployment with clear benefits (and risks of course).

They are:
The South Australian campaign:

By building YZ-7 to secure existing GZ territory and following that with RZ-8S to start really reclaiming Australia I hope to open the Tib glaciers that surely exist in the Australian interior to mining. As a stretch goal I'd also like to build YZ-6 to secure western Australia. Longer term I hope that pushing the RZ back in the south would allow for over-land transportation across the south, somewhat reducing the need for naval shipping in one of the more at-risk areas in regards to Bintang.​

• Pros: Limited scope, high relative income generation. Potential glacier mines in the near-ish future. Economic and strategic benefits to linking the livable Australian zones.
• Cons: Limited scope. Limited strategic benefits unless YZ-6 is included. Some susceptibility to naval interference, particularly around YZ-6. RZ-8N is IMO untenable, which bothers my completionist mentality.

The Mediterranean Campaign:

By building hubs counter clock-wise around the Mediterranean we can secure a great deal of income and potentially achieve some very important strategic goals. Building YZ-15 would secure our positions in Iberia and effectively complete the reconquest of Western Europe. YZ-13N would restrict Mehrethu/The Ten Rings ability to deploy naval assets in the Med and in conjunction with YZ-15 would likely secure the Med as much as we can manage. RZ-1S I see primarily as a stepping-stone to RZ-3S and N, but it has a lot of potential as a larger military base and mining site as well. RZ-3S is what I consider the real prize here. It is likely the first step to reclaiming the Suez, and generally strategically significant. While I consider RZ-3N as less important, the potential economic benefits of relatively safe access to the Black Sea and the mining opportunities there is likely immensely valuable. Given how deep it is in the RZ Nod activity in the region is likely minimal.​

• Pros: Secures the Med. Lots of income, especially in the long-term. Suez(eventually). Significant benefits even if the entire campaign isn't finished.
• Cons: Big investment. Pokes three separate Nod forces in short order: Reynaldo's remnants, Mehrethu/TTR, and The Inner Circle. Potentially makes al-Isfahani nervous. Will extend GDI influence into areas historically significant to Nod (Egypt), to uncertain response from the Brotherhood.

The South American Campaign:

While the economic impact of the SA campaign would be somewhat limited, it has a lot of potential strategic value and some political significance as well. With our military difficulties in SA, I'd suggest starting by building BZ-8 to secure our back-line and restore some confidence in the region. I would then suggest YZ-12W to start expanding into Nod-held territory, without directly poking Stahl's main holdings, which seems to be located on the east coast. YZ-12E is of course the capstone to this campaign, but will almost certainly involve a direct confrontation with Stahl and should IMO only be tried when we are confident in our chances to beat him.​

• Pros: Secures our most at risk area. Completes (first stage?) MARV deployments in SA. If successful, greatly weakens Stahl.
• Cons: Low income potential. Painful military defeat and potential political consequences if failed.

 

[NickAragua]

Personally, once we're done with the big ticket military operations, I'd like to see those Tiberium inhibitors deployed. Since, you know, Tiberium.

 

[Cerazor]

NOD: Oh, SURE, when we do cartoonishly evil schemes, you call us 'terrorists', 'zealots', 'insane', and 'misusing resources that could save lives for no practical benefit'. But when you carve your logo onto the Moon, it's fine.

Well, we'll carve the scorpion tail, INTO MARS! MWAHAHAHA!!!!

Click to shrink...

GDI: Yeah. But the difference here is the Score is currently; 0 and 3. Our way. Little widdle Noddie gonna cry?

While were at it we should carve our Logo over the old Sarajevo Temple Prime. As a 'I LIVED BITCH!'

A hub in Rz2 North would probably make redzone harvesting a bit easier

Click to shrink...

Isn't that in West Africa? I don't believe we even have a Fleet in that continent. I don't think we really have the Time/Dice/Resources to start and finish that one during the current War while we make our Commitments. As outrageously expensive as it sounds, -The MARV being slightly outdated aside-, having a MARV fleet per continent by the end of the Campaign would be pretty Neat. Totally not because the Hub near my IRL city is like a couple hours drive or anything.

 

[Model DC.14F]

I thought we were going to wait until after the end of the Regency War to build more MARV hubs?

Because of all the Military goals we need to finish before the end of the plan, and also because we're hoping to create an updated MARV design with harvesting tendrils and a hover chassis.

 

[bigking321]

Before we start deploying more MARVs it would be nice to get them refit.

Pretty sure that one steel talons research would help it out.

Modular Rapid Assembly System Prototypes. That's the one.

I thought we were going to wait until after the end of the Regency War to build more MARV hubs?

Click to shrink...

I don't think anyone is talking about deploying them now but in the future.

and a hover chassis.

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Oh, I forgot about that.

Yes, that would be great as well.

 

[DinoHank]

Oh yeah, I'm entirely in favor of waiting until things calm down, probably next plan sometime. An upgraded MARV would be nice, but I'm not sure our hover-tech is up to the task of running a MARV, though. We havn't done the prototype facility yet so we don't know(unless Discord spoilers), but I have serious doubts we can scale it well enough.

 

[Rakuhn]

I thought we were going to wait until after the end of the Regency War to build more MARV hubs?

Because of all the Military goals we need to finish before the end of the plan, and also because we're hoping to create an updated MARV design with harvesting tendrils and a hover chassis.

Click to shrink...

Basically, it's a question between YZ Harvesting phases now and Chicago later, or Chicago now and YZ Harvesting later. Both help the war effort, and only use tib dice. The former has the advantage of immediately grabbing more clay, whereas the latter is digesting our gains and consolidating our forces before pushing for more.

As you say, MARVs are probably on the backburner until our military is in a better condition (or we've finished our current slate of bureau projects so we can use AA dice to kick it off). Hover chassis is probably not going to happen for the first set of refits, as we still haven't started the iterating the tech. Currently hover tech is only good enough for trucking, not even small combat vehicles. Our military are going to want a lot of experience with the tech before they start applying it to the land-battleships.

 

[bigking321]

An upgraded MARV would be nice, but I'm not sure our hover-tech is up to the task of running a MARV, though.

Click to shrink...

I believe it was said that if we pursue that tech tree it would be eventually possible.

 

[DinoHank]

I believe it was said that if we pursue that tech tree it would be eventually possible.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough. I'd love to see it eventually. But I doubt our Gen 1 hover-tech can manage it. I, personally, aren't expecting hover-MARVs until next refit, after the one we're speculating on now.

 

[Calvin]

I'm not sure if a large push on Bergen is the right move at this time, it might put even more pressure on our navy as the superconductors have to be shipped across the Atlantic.

 

[doruma1920]

I'm not sure if a large push on Bergen is the right move at this time, it might put even more pressure on our navy as the superconductors have to be shipped across the Atlantic.

Click to shrink...

For LCI, our currently available options are:
-Chemical Fertilizer
--Gives 4 Food and Consumer Goods in exchange for ~3 dice and 45 R

-Reykjavik
--Requires ~16-17 dice to complete Phase 5, long term project. Is possible to complete before the en of the Plan

-Bergen
--At 30 RpD is very R expensive, though this is the point in the FYP that we can afford to funnel dice into it and potentially get some benefits from it.

-Civilian Drones
--R cheap project with a bunch of minor benefits in Health, Consumer Goods, and Logistics. May be precursor to more advanced Drone projects along with ZOCOM's Infantry Recon Support Drone. (~5 dice, 50 R)

This is the time to invest dice and resources into Bergen as we have the R to activate some dice. We can't afford to active all five LCI dice on Bergen, but we don't need to. Ideally we get Phase 1-3 of Bergen complete before reallocation, that would cost about 8 dice to do. To get Phase 4 as well would cost another 10 dice, which while technically possible, as there are 25 more LCI dice in this Plan, isn't really affordable at 30 RpD.

Finishing Reykjavik this plan is doable, but it is a lot of dice to do so. We would need to focus on it at the expense of Bergen as we would have few dice left over after completing Phase 5.

Chemical Fertilizer and Civilian Drones are both good side projects to fit in with the excess LCI dice after the rest go into Bergen or Reykjavik. Chemical Fertilizer is the only source of Food outside of Agriculture and Shala, while Civilian Drones are a solid boost to our economy in general and give Health, if that is still a concern.

For Bergen vs Reykjavik, I think the potential benefits for Energy both in the short term with what Bergen gives and in the long term with potentially Fusion 2.0, the benefits for Erewhon, and how long it will be till we can afford to invest in it again post reallocation favors Bergen. And since we do need Food, and Health is (hopefully) less of an issue with medical factories and operating theaters complete this turn, that moves things to favor Fertilizer over Drones.

 

[Burrkinator]

Isn't that in West Africa? I don't believe we even have a Fleet in that continent. I don't think we really have the Time/Dice/Resources to start and finish that one during the current War while we make our Commitments

Click to shrink...

It is in West Africa. Redzone harvesting valls for us to move Up The Congo river so i figured having a stronghold in The region might help. Granted you are right when you say we dont have The Dice to be able to do it atm but maybe in The future

 

[Phht]

The South Australian campaign:
By building YZ-7 to secure existing GZ territory and following that with RZ-8S to start really reclaiming Australia I hope to open the Tib glaciers that surely exist in the Australian interior to mining. As a stretch goal I'd also like to build YZ-6 to secure western Australia. Longer term I hope that pushing the RZ back in the south would allow for over-land transportation across the south, somewhat reducing the need for naval shipping in one of the more at-risk areas in regards to Bintang.

• Pros: Limited scope, high relative income generation. Potential glacier mines in the near-ish future. Economic and strategic benefits to linking the livable Australian zones.
• Cons: Limited scope. Limited strategic benefits unless YZ-6 is included. Some susceptibility to naval interference, particularly around YZ-6. RZ-8N is IMO untenable, which bothers my completionist mentality.

Click to shrink...

It wouldn't really reduce any naval shipping (YZ-6 related shipping aside) to have a land corridor with western Australia. We have convoy routes going to South Africa/Madagascar and Oman that go past there, and will still do so regardless of who controls that side of the continent. What it would do is open an invasion corridor that GDI can use to push Nod out of Australia and likely ease the amount of raiding near Australia as a result. One of the people in thread called the idea Operation MULBERRY, where instead of naval invasion against likely long prepared positions, we punch in through the Red Zone where they aren't as likely to be expecting us. Also, invading West Australia's probably going to pull Bintang out to provide supplies to Nod forces there, like she did with eastern Australia. Something to keep in mind.

The Med campaign is one I've been thinking on myself.

Spoiler

Like, during the next 4YP, get the West Africa YZ hubs up and preferably GZ the coast out to them (also YZ-15). That cuts off some mid-Atlantic raiders and most potential sources of Med raiders. Then the following 4YP, GDI Navy flexes its restored amphib capability against Florida and the Caribbean (and that chunk of South America). While they're in the islands and not necessarily needing us to slap fortress towns etc down each turn (like potentially in Florida or South America), we could probably work on banging out RZ-1S and then RZ-3S/N while Nod's likely eyeing GDI activity in the Atlantic instead of what we might be doing in the Med. And getting RZ-1S would open putting Tiberium inhibitors to work in that area. Likewise with the RZ-3N/S pair.

And 4-6 years to that point means we could get in at least one new MARV iteration with harvesting tendrils and other upgrades (laser weapons, plasma weapons?). MARV Mk II? Super MARV Kai? Ooooh, we could eventually get to Super MARV Kai Ni Black Ultra!

Another good reason not to worry about Med MARV building campaigns this upcoming 4YP is that we still have Karachi looming over us, so that'll almost certainly need taken care of in that 4YP. Also probably knock out RZ-7 and YZ-11 Tiberium Inhibitors at a minimum. Possibly also BZ-18 Inhibitor minimum?

Spoiler: 2061-2065 4YP

• Karachi
• YZ-13 N/S
• YZ-15
• YZ-7
• Tiberium Inhibitors
  • RZ-7
  • YZ-7
  • YZ-11
  • YZ-13
  • YZ-15
  • BZ-18
• Optional
  • RZ-2N + Red Zone Tiberium Harvesting Stage 12 (Congo River region)
  • YZ-16 + Inhibitor
  • YZ-1W

Spoiler: 2066-2070 4YP

• RZ-1S
• RZ-3 N/S
• RZ-8S
• YZ-6
• Tiberium Inhibitors
  • RZ-1
  • RZ-3
  • YZ-6
  • BZ-9

 

[Derpmind]

Something to keep in mind is that if we're going to build MARV hubs again, the most efficient way to build them is to just lump a bunch of dice into one Hub and let the overflow go through multiple hubs at at time. With hubs taking 335 progress, seven Tiberium dice and two Mil dice would on average give us 779.5 progress, or enough for two hubs with 109.5 progress left over. Seven Tib plus seven Free dice (and the two Mil dice) would get us an average of 1,406 progress, which is enough for four hubs in a single turn. (And 66 progress left over.)

The problem with this is that we don't get to chose where the roll-over progress goes. We can't plan ahead of time exactly which Hubs get built and which ones don't; that's up to Ithillid. We'll certainly end up building a number of Blue Zone Hubs in addition to YZ and RZ Hubs. All we can really do is pick a starting point and guess where the overflow will go.