Shala does have some population capacity though, and we are likely learning things with people being on Philadelphia and Enterprise.
With Columbia being a testing station, it might well be redundant by the time we are able to build it.
Would not be surprised if the station designs change in the next plan. I expect we'll have a population target, rather than a specific project goal. (Or both.)

However, we are in a war. So I'm not sure that this is important right now.
 
If we complete enterprise building the other 2 stations next plan should be a no brainer.

Finishing both Columbia and Shala is a total of 5220 Progress or about 64 dice. Over 16 quarters we have a total of 96 dice, taking both stations next plan would leave 32 orbital dice available. As long as we don't take to much else finishing both stations is entire doable for the fourth four year plan. Though in my opinoin it is a higher priority to get Tib Stabilizers in Venusian Orbit, or maybe set up the Conestoga Class to get the ball rolling on interplanetary logistics.

In any event I'm sure we will discuss this in depth come 2062.
 
Wouldn't completing enterprise drop those costs significantly?
Enterprise itself will not. Unless things have changed, each bay on Enterprise (3 in total at Phase 5) will provide a Progress reduction to (probably just orbital) space station projects. IIRC, the plan was -10 Progress per bay... which is doubled for each successive phase in a station, which means that each bay dedicated to that would reduce a full 5-phase station by 310 Progress. The question, of course, is whether we want to go for orbital habitats, or lunar cities and spreading our population more widely.

Edit: the thing is, that each bay will be competing for a number of different options, all of which are likely to be very nice.
 
Shala does have some population capacity though, and we are likely learning things with people being on Philadelphia and Enterprise.
With Columbia being a testing station, it might well be redundant by the time we are able to build it.
I don't think so. here's why.

We're learning things with people on Philadelphia and Enterprise, but we're learning the wrong things. Or rather, not enough things.

The Philadelphia is an office building. Enterprise is a factory. Our lunar mines are the equivalent of deep-sea oil drilling rigs. All are places people go to work, and presumably stay for a certain length of time, and then come back. They're not residences, and they're not designed to be scaled up into one. You could probably live aboard one of the big stations full-time, but they're not designed for it and people probably aren't even allowed to under the normal course of things. Presumably, people rotate on and off in long shifts.

So we're not learning enough things, realistically. We're not learning, for example, how to handle pregnancy and childbirth in space conditions. We're probably not learning how to handle disabilities, or how to handle medical care aboard the stations at all aside from "provide acute/emergency care and ship them back earthside as soon as something goes wrong." We're not learning the psychological requirements for people to be comfortable in a space station for years at a time.

Building Columbia won't give us all that information immediately... but it's where we start learning those things.

Would not be surprised if the station designs change in the next plan. I expect we'll have a population target, rather than a specific project goal. (Or both.)

However, we are in a war. So I'm not sure that this is important right now.
Given a population target, it becomes quasi-mandatory for us to build Columbia, that or skip straight to lunar bases... And realistically, we will want large-scale permanently inhabited space stations not parked on the moon sooner or later, so we might as well go ahead and do it.

Though in my opinoin it is a higher priority to get Tib Stabilizers in Venusian Orbit, or maybe set up the Conestoga Class to get the ball rolling on interplanetary logistics.
There is no reasonable way for us to do tiberium stabilizers in Venus orbit in the Fourth Four Year Plan.

Consider. The 2000-point megaproject was just to build the satellites and launch them to LEO. Putting them into orbit around Venus is a considerably more ambitious launch project. Note that it took dedicated ferry runs from Pathfinder just to put a much smaller tiberium mapping constellation around Venus.

Earth to Venus is days on a G-drive ship, and months on a fusion drive ship. And we'd be requiring a whole lot of ships.

We'd need, at a minimum, the Conestoga-class (with several hulls ready to go), or a new class of interplanetary fusion shuttle using the second-generation engines that are restartable and can do multiple main engine burns. With a high production run.

The scope of ferrying all the satellites to Venus would be an immense project by the standards of our current space infrastructure. Furthermore, it wouldn't be enough. That is a satellite constellation; there are a very large number of individual nodes. Realistically, they will require a continuous human presence capable of monitoring and servicing them in real time. Which means we need to keep people in Venus orbit. Which means either keeping one or more G-drive ships very very busy doing shuttle runs... or doing serious work on Columbia so we can design a sustainble environment for prolonged stays in Venus orbit.

...

There's just very little beyond science missions that we can do on Venus until we develop more flexible and capable space travel infrastructure. Setting up major industrialized projects is too big.
 
So for those of us currently satisfied/disinterested/confused with Venus, another topic.

Those micro fusion cells, those will be key to GDI handheld energy weapons, yes? If we pushed developing them next turn, would it be likely that we'd get a project for those weapons the next turn? Or if we're really lucky, the same turn? Because I'd be willing to push Mastodon development back a turn if it meant we could get infantry scale laser and plasma guns for even the tail end of the ReWar.
 
Whoa whoa whoa, what did I miss, are people trying to install infrastructure and mining operations on Venus? Our Venus?

The one that is the hottest planet in our solar system and on an average day is comfortably hot enough to melt lead? The one where it rains sulfuric acid? The ones with 'go home' force winds?

That Venus? I don't think even future Earth has the capability to build anything that can last for a few minutes on the surface of Venus while functioning properly. It corrodes, melts, and just generally ruins everything.

Edit: aha, whoops, missed the topic change by a minute…
 
So for those of us currently satisfied/disinterested/confused with Venus, another topic.

Those micro fusion cells, those will be key to GDI handheld energy weapons, yes? If we pushed developing them next turn, would it be likely that we'd get a project for those weapons the next turn? Or if we're really lucky, the same turn? Because I'd be willing to push Mastodon development back a turn if it meant we could get infantry scale laser and plasma guns for even the tail end of the ReWar.
Gacha tech has a cook timer. The tech labs will work on them over time in the background until enough time has gone by and then we'll get projects for them.

We do not have any tech projects currently that is worth delaying the Mastodon over.
 
I believe projects gained from reverse-engineering take time to show up after the actual roll.

The QM laid it out here

The Breakthrough Technologies. These are one off or few off leaps that generally come from studying someone else's stuff. NOD, Scrin, the Tacitus, things like that.
These are modeled as a range of breakthroughs, generally 100. (there are often several degrees of one technology scattered throughout the range)
To see what you get, I roll 1dx or 2dx to determine the number of d100s that I roll. Those d100s reference points on the chart, which is sorted in generally ascending order of usefulness. (100 was unlocking the secrets of modern stealth technology for example, while 1 was an old NOD codebook). If duplicates are rolled, (lets say 2 20s) you get the technology and the one above it (so 20 and 21) These projects will complete over the next 1-16 turns, unlocking new options to finalize development and starting to throw projects around that actually start taking substantial effects.

Reading it, I think the QM literally just rolls a d16 when we get the research and in that many turns we get the option to start doing stuff with the breakthrough
 
So for those of us currently satisfied/disinterested/confused with Venus, another topic.

Those micro fusion cells, those will be key to GDI handheld energy weapons, yes? If we pushed developing them next turn, would it be likely that we'd get a project for those weapons the next turn? Or if we're really lucky, the same turn? Because I'd be willing to push Mastodon development back a turn if it meant we could get infantry scale laser and plasma guns for even the tail end of the ReWar.
Don't microfusion cells require STUs up the wazoo?
 
There is no reasonable way for us to do tiberium stabilizers in Venus orbit in the Fourth Four Year Plan.

Consider. The 2000-point megaproject was just to build the satellites and launch them to LEO. Putting them into orbit around Venus is a considerably more ambitious launch project. Note that it took dedicated ferry runs from Pathfinder just to put a much smaller tiberium mapping constellation around Venus.

Earth to Venus is days on a G-drive ship, and months on a fusion drive ship. And we'd be requiring a whole lot of ships.

We'd need, at a minimum, the Conestoga-class (with several hulls ready to go), or a new class of interplanetary fusion shuttle using the second-generation engines that are restartable and can do multiple main engine burns. With a high production run.

The scope of ferrying all the satellites to Venus would be an immense project by the standards of our current space infrastructure. Furthermore, it wouldn't be enough. That is a satellite constellation; there are a very large number of individual nodes. Realistically, they will require a continuous human presence capable of monitoring and servicing them in real time. Which means we need to keep people in Venus orbit. Which means either keeping one or more G-drive ships very very busy doing shuttle runs... or doing serious work on Columbia so we can design a sustainble environment for prolonged stays in Venus orbit.

...

There's just very little beyond science missions that we can do on Venus until we develop more flexible and capable space travel infrastructure. Setting up major industrialized projects is too big.
Which is not to say we shouldn't be taking steps toward it, but... yeah. We're looking at a very long (relative) timescale here, but the important thing is we have that time. We can be reasonably certain from projections that Tiberium Venera is growing more slowly than the Earthside stuff.

Really, what we need to do is wait for SCED to bring us that sample and analyze it to see if there are any important differences between our backyard Tib and the stuff on Venus. Then we can start formulating the beginnings of a plan.

So for those of us currently satisfied/disinterested/confused with Venus, another topic.

Those micro fusion cells, those will be key to GDI handheld energy weapons, yes? If we pushed developing them next turn, would it be likely that we'd get a project for those weapons the next turn? Or if we're really lucky, the same turn? Because I'd be willing to push Mastodon development back a turn if it meant we could get infantry scale laser and plasma guns for even the tail end of the ReWar.
Gacha tech takes 1d16 turns/quarters to become available for development on our level of abstraction. It may be available by next turn but I wouldn't count on it.
 
So for those of us currently satisfied/disinterested/confused with Venus, another topic.

Those micro fusion cells, those will be key to GDI handheld energy weapons, yes? If we pushed developing them next turn, would it be likely that we'd get a project for those weapons the next turn? Or if we're really lucky, the same turn? Because I'd be willing to push Mastodon development back a turn if it meant we could get infantry scale laser and plasma guns for even the tail end of the ReWar.
Microfusion cells are unlikely to appear right away on the menu, because tech we acquire takes time to turn into something that Treasury can fund as a billion dollar development project.

Furthermore, even if we had it, the cost of building microfusion cells for every GDI rifle on the front lines of a global war would eat up all of our STU production and howl for more. Microfusion power is not going to be the solution to any problem of ours that requires true mass production, not for the foreseeable future.

We do not have any tech projects currently that is worth delaying the Mastodon over.
Ehhh. Debateable.

I think people are greatly overestimating the value of immediate work on the Mastodon; I'd much rather spend the coming turn focusing on rolling out SADN (in case any Regency War warlords decide to toss a nuclear cruise missile at key facilities), and on the wingman drones (to thicken the Air Force) and shipyards (to at least try to get the navy up to par). But as for development projects arguably more valuable than the Mastodon, we have:

-Advanced ECCM
-Stealth Disruptors
-Railgun Munitions (nigh-immediate upgrade to nearly ALL GDI vehicle-mounted heavy weapons)
-Hallucinogen Countermeasures (this specifically helps us counter the new Nod psychic commandos, who used hallucinogens heavily in their raids)
 
But as for development projects arguably more valuable than the Mastodon, we have:

-Advanced ECCM
-Stealth Disruptors
-Railgun Munitions (nigh-immediate upgrade to nearly ALL GDI vehicle-mounted heavy weapons)
-Hallucinogen Countermeasures (this specifically helps us counter the new Nod psychic commandos, who used hallucinogens heavily in their raids)

I'd agree with this. Especially eccm and munitions since they probably wouldn't need deployments. Just adjustments to already existing infrastructure.
 
Don't microfusion cells require STUs up the wazoo?

Yes, yes they do.

That is not to say that microfusion is not going to be useful. If we could roll out microfusion comprehensively that'd be very nice. But it does mean that comprehensively rolling out microfusion is probably equivalent to our entire STU production capacity right now, and not going to get any cheaper.

Thankfully, our current state of Zone Armour and small scale power production to power those Zone Armours and their weapons means we don't need microfusion to make use of small scale laser weapons.
 
A space discussion happened and I was not there. I have to give my 50 cents to it.

The reason I would do Venus mining relatively soon is that it gives us Tiberium/STU supply Nod and "Mister Masterstroke" Kane can do fuckall about. It also gives experience working in that awful environment, which will be valuable in the long run. It is also a place to do funny Tiberium experiments that might be too dangerous with Nod around.

Colony. First in order to prove the viability of a Venusian Colony and gain experience in keeping large number of people continuously in isolated facilities. That means completing Columbia, 2160 Progress, 33 dice and 660 R. Our choices for where the colonists are going to live are either in aerostats or in orbit, living on the surface of Hell Venus is non viable even before the tib started spreading on the surface. For the aerostats they may be tethered to orbit, to the surface, both, or free floating. The first would almost certainly require an orbital ring as aphroditostationary orbit is 117 times the radius of Venus (geostationary is 6.6 times Earths Orbit for reference), this is due to how slow Venus rotates. Free floating is not desired as we would want Taibai* Station to be roughly stationary over the tib patch for logistics easing if it was in the atmosphere. Being tethered to the ground is possible, but it would have to be tethered well outside of the Tib patch to prevent tib contamination on the tethers. In orbit Taibai essentially would be a duplicate Columbia. It is also possible that a combination of areostats and orbital habitats would be used. For simplicities sake, I am going to operate on the assumption that Taibai is orbital and is a duplicate of the cost of Columbia.
Hmmmm, Venus AeroStat SCED base is a good idea. Thanks.

Power. We currently do not know the progress cost and power output of Orbital Power Stations, which will be unlocked when we complete Orbital Clean Up Stage 11. However that or Fusion will be what will power Taibai. The power needs should be manageable to one set of Fusion Plants or the equivalent, 300 Progress at 20 RpD for 16 Energy.
Given we just rolled ion storm collectors and Venus is covered in eternal ion storms "groundside" power should effectively be solved.
 
Regarding power on Venus, would wind power be more viable due to the dense atmosphere? Without any knowledge about wind power, I am just guessing that it might give more power than on Earth.
 
AFAK a denser atmosphere would lead to more power from wind turbines, yes. However, you would also need to design more robust turbines to handle the greater forces involved, which cuts down somewhat on the gain. Closer to a rounding error than a real concern, though. The real challenge in this case would be to make something that can survive on the veneran surface, because the pressure at the heights usually suggested for aerostats is ~ one atmosphere, so there would be no particular gain there. AFAIK anyway. Not an engineer etc.
 
Enterprise itself will not. Unless things have changed, each bay on Enterprise (3 in total at Phase 5) will provide a Progress reduction to (probably just orbital) space station projects. IIRC, the plan was -10 Progress per bay... which is doubled for each successive phase in a station, which means that each bay dedicated to that would reduce a full 5-phase station by 310 Progress. The question, of course, is whether we want to go for orbital habitats, or lunar cities and spreading our population more widely.

Edit: the thing is, that each bay will be competing for a number of different options, all of which are likely to be very nice.
I thought we could only build each type of Bay once. I don't think Ithillid will let us get a massive 930 progress discount on both the Columbia and Shalla. (Especially since after the first 4 stations, we'll unlock more that all the discounts we already have will presumably apply to as well.)
 
The Venusian Tiberium is impractical as of now- it'd be easier to make deep-red-zone mining sites on Earth. The real consequence of it is having a clean Earth source of tiberium. We can have our cake and eat it too- that being both living conditions and the vastly more profitable tib economy.

Wonder how practical asteroid mining+tib would be?
 
Wonder how practical asteroid mining+tib would be?
I fear asteroids don't have a big enough mass to prevent any accidental piece of Tiberius escaping and deviating in space. On-planet mining allows us to make sure that the only way the Tiberium can spread is through spaceships, and I think it's easier to make sure there's no tab escaping that way.
 
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