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As An Eagle Flies (A House Arryn Quest)

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Increase the population of the Vale solely through the power of our own marital bliss. Fetch our wife more reading material. See if a woods witch has invented herbal viagra. We have to make Walder Frey look bad.

More seriously, we just need to not have population die-offs every damn Winter. I'd say that the Faith needs a greater hand in the operation of holds, granaries and shelters people can retreat to during dark times. Small scale crofters, the bulk of our population, simply can not sufficiently prepare for years where the climate resembles Lapland.

And, while there is snow on the ground, we have a captive audience for our Knights Hospitallar. You can do a lot with a petitioner who is going to be bored out of his or her skull for several years running. And, the rest of the time, well... orphans and the desperate are a strategic resource, now aren't they?
 
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Modus_Tollens said:
Increase the population of the Vale solely through the power of our own marital bliss. Fetch our wife more reading material. See if a woods witch has invented herbal viagra. We have to make Walder Frey look bad
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I mean Waulder has over a couple dozen bastards and lovers running around as well, while we only have our wife... not impossible but clearly not likely unless Rhaella is comfortable with being nothing more then a baby making machine.

It's not healthy to be pregnant that much in a short period of time, it could kill her.

As for population... I've got no ideas for that.
 
Magoose said:
As for population... I've got no ideas for that.
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Freed slaves from Essos, settling Free Folk willing to bend the knee, those are the only things I can think of at the moment that could potentially work.

Otherwise the only way to really increase the population is by making life easier for the commoners with better farming, housing, medicine and so on. Tho such things could take years or even decades to really be worth the cost.

What we can do however is to empty out Kingslanding by offering the commoners there to come to the Vale, I'm certain we will be needing a huge workforce for any projects we wish to complete in the future such as Miners, Farmers, Builders Sailors, etc.

Not to mention clearing up the mountains from the Clansmen will surely be a time consuming process so soldiers will also be in high demand at some point.
 
I'm still not convinced we need to exactly clear out the clansmen. Beat the ever living crap out of them, sure, but I'd very much like them to stay up there in those mountains and do their thing... as long as their thing doesn't involve raiding our soft underbelly, sacrificing our men to bloody-mouthed trees, and taking our women. I'd outright Varangian them if we could just get that assurance.

Which will probably require beating a fucker down like we were Tormund Giantsbane and that poor bastard was Rattleshirt. *thumpthumpthumpthumpthumpthump*

Their lands may have decent mineral wealth and other treasures, but its never going to have the carrying capacity necessary to compare with the Vale of Arryn.


Think we have or will have the political capital to secure ourselves a city charter? The existence of actual cities is regulated by law in Westeros. It wouldn't be useful yet, but a lot of our projects would require a seat with population densities that would run up against that law.
 
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Modus_Tollens said:
Their lands may have decent mineral wealth and other treasures, but its never going to have the carrying capacity necessary to compare with the Vale of Arryn
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Those lands are very rich in mineral wealth, almost westerland level of mineral wealth of silver and iron and other material.

Enormous gains for those who exploit it.

Modus_Tollens said:
Think we have or will have the political capital to secure ourselves a city charter? The existence of actual cities is regulated by law in Westeros. It wouldn't be useful yet, but a lot of our projects would require a seat with population densities that would run up against that law
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Speaking of Charters, we actually might get one pretty soon.
 
Mayrun said:
Eeeeh. Knowing Magoose's luck with pregnancy rolls, we'll end up with 3 sets of triplets.
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Or just a single kid for the whole marriage, with still births and miscarriages.

Edit: this is game of thrones after all. What you think everything is going to be hunky dory.
 
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Magoose said:
Or just a single kid for the whole marriage, with still births and miscarriages.

Edit: this is game of thrones after all. What you think everything is going to be hunky dory.
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Well, I remember our Winged Hussar honey that gave us like 12 kids and still manged to outlive us and prevent the empire from collapsing into itself.
 
Magoose said:
Those lands are very rich in mineral wealth, almost westerland level of mineral wealth of silver and iron and other material.

Enormous gains for those who exploit it.
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We'll have to be tight fisted about letting people, honestly. Having vassals as peers, to close to your own measure of power, reduces the stability of a realm. You end up having to negotiate rather than dictate.

We'll need to directly network with Tywin and Tytos, and probably bribe one of their vassal houses with failing mines (the Westerlings of the Crag) to either emigrate or else send off their best. We can mine, but we don't have the millennia of doctrine to do it like the Westerlands.

And their technique, the way they build their fortress mines, is actually really well suited for operating near the Mountain Clansmen. Almost entirely built into the mountain, a small surface fortification made from what was effectively the dross produced by the mine, with a set of chokepoints tighter than a vice. Very little surface disturbance and certainly preferable to pit mines.
Magoose said:
Speaking of Charters, we actually might get one pretty soon.
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We'll have to be tight fisted with that too. Gulltown is the obvious choice but its a lot of power to hand to the Grafftons. The mayor of London was traditionally a horrible pain in the ass for the king of England for much of the middle ages and I don't want to see the Westerosi variant.
 
Modus_Tollens said:
I'm still not convinced we need to exactly clear out the clansmen. Beat the ever living crap out of them, sure, but I'd very much like them to stay up there in those mountains and do their thing... as long as their thing doesn't involve raiding our soft underbelly, sacrificing our men to bloody-mouthed trees, and taking our women. I'd outright Varangian them if we could just get that assurance.

Which will probably require beating a fucker down like we were Tormund Giantsbane and that poor bastard was Rattleshirt. *thumpthumpthumpthumpthumpthump*

Their lands may have decent mineral wealth and other treasures, but its never going to have the carrying capacity necessary to compare with the Vale of Arryn.


Think we have or will have the political capital to secure ourselves a city charter? The existence of actual cities is regulated by law in Westeros. It wouldn't be useful yet, but a lot of our projects would require a seat with population densities that would run up against that law.
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I'm working from the assumption that we will have to eliminate around 70-80% of the Clans before the rest fall in line, there is just too much bad blood and history there for us to easily 'Diplo-Annex' them. They are First Men so one thing they respect is strength, should we approach them without having established 'dominance' so to speak first them more then likely they'll laugh in Arstans face before sending him away.

I'd very much like to have 2 or more Clans sworn to Arstan instead of fighting them all, the Varangian idea is exactly why it was one of the first things I talked about when the quest had just started because let's be honest, having a dedicated group of almost-Vikings Beserkers to call on is just too awesome to pass on.

Through as Magoose just said, the sheer magnitude of mineral wealth we would have at our disposal is very much worth going on the war path against the Mountain Clans for.

Tho I would point out we wouldn't really need any Westerlanders or even Tywin to start it up, merely Maesters or even Miners who worked in their Mines if we even need then that is.

Because wherever we like it or not, the Westerlands would become sort of our rival in that category, any Westerland House we make a deal with will want a percentage of the gains we make from those mines or concessions from House Arryn. Not worth the effort imo.
 
Modus_Tollens said:
We'll have to be tight fisted about letting people, honestly. Having vassals as peers, to close to your own measure of power, reduces the stability of a realm. You end up having to negotiate rather than dictate
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Well we can always have a crap load of kids, dish out lands and titles and what not, build it up and let them fight over it after we die and our legendary diplomacy won't keep them from killing each other.
Modus_Tollens said:
We'll need to directly network with Tywin and Tytos, and probably bribe one of their vassal houses with failing mines (the Westerlings of the Crag) to either emigrate or else send off their best. We can mine, but we don't have the millennia of doctrine to do it like the Westerlands
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Importing people from the other kingdoms is not going to be looked upon by the other lords as... how we should say, nicely. Andal they may be, but they don't know the Vale.
Modus_Tollens said:
We'll have to be tight fisted with that too. Gulltown is the obvious choice but its a lot of power to hand to the Grafftons. The mayor of London was traditionally a horrible pain in the ass for the king of England for much of the middle ages and I don't want to see the Westerosi variant
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Fortunately, most cities in Westeros won't be able to exert that amount of control, especially one that is just recently founded.

Maybe after a few generations, but we'll be long dead by then.
RagnvarOdinson said:
I'm working from the assumption that we will have to eliminate around 70-80% of the Clans before the rest fall in line, there is just too much bad blood and history there for us to easily 'Diplo-Annex' them. They are First Men so one thing they respect is strength, should we approach them without having established 'dominance' so to speak first them more then likely they'll laugh in Arstans face before sending him away
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You can actually make them bend the knee without killing them all. You just need to ask an ally within the clans (once you get one) to call a council of the Mountain and allow you to step in and claim the mountain kingship. You just got to take a page out of the stark playbook by making them swear in perpetuity and explain to them exactly what it means and well... profit.

Let them live without too much interference and allow inferstructure to be built, and pay your taxes without raiding people to get said taxes, and you can do whatever the hell you want.

Oh and don't go declaring war on the Valeman, they are friends not foes.
RagnvarOdinson said:
Because wherever we like it or not, the Westerlands would become sort of our rival in that category, any Westerland House we make a deal with will want a percentage of the gains we make from those mines or concessions from House Arryn. Not worth the effort imo
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That and you can make far more money owning everything and going into debt for a couple of decades, rather then lose a shit load of cash from Tywin... a not so friendly negotiator who only looks out for number one house.
 
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godofsmallthings said:
So who gets the islands ? I am guessing the lords with significant navies could start cadet branches.

I wonder if Arstan can snag a few islands for Vale.
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We are not the ones who decide that. Only the king may do that, and from the rewards we're going to get in the next update... the islands might be going to more deserving people.

Besides we need to get home and start the love making sessions with Rhaella.
 
I'd actually liken them to gurkhas as much as vikings, at least in application. I think we might be able to do it without eliminating more than a the forerunner groups who make the move first. There is going to be some group of idiots with more testosterone than brains.

With the Westerlands, I'd say we'd have it in our interests to make agreements on metal exchange rates. Silver versus gold. We would dominate enough of the market that it would give both parties a fair bit more stability. I'm not sure the actual gain, though, considering the comparatively primitive economy.

I will grumble about losing out on the Westerlings or whatnot, though I will concede from a political point of view. I don't think a maester, however many links, or mere miners are satisfactory though. They help but its not quite the same. But politics are politics.

As for having a lot of kids... there are a lot of things you can do with them besides landing them, and there are lots of ways to do so that cause minimal issues.
godofsmallthings said:
So who gets the islands ? I am guessing the lords with significant navies could start cadet branches.

I wonder if Arstan can snag a few islands for Vale.
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The only one I really want is Braavos. That one isn't happening for a dog's age though. The Stepstones really only are in a position to be held by the Crown, the Stormlands, Dorne, and the Iron Islanders if we steel ourselves with enough alcohol first. Maybe the Redwyne but the Reach wasn't really a big player in this and has more land than it can even use.

That is just the capacity, ignoring the politics. We'd fuck ourselves over even trying to build up things down there if we were given one or all of them. It would be an actual white elephant.

We are far away and have limited naval projection power, all of which has to go through one lonely port.
 
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Modus_Tollens said:
I'd actually liken them to gurkhas as much as vikings, at least in application. I think we might be able to do it without eliminating more than a the forerunner groups who make the move first. There is going to be some group of idiots with more testosterone than brains
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That might happen regardless of success or failure.
Modus_Tollens said:
With the Westerlands, I'd say we'd have it in our interests to make agreements on metal exchange rates. Silver versus gold. We would dominate enough of the market that it would give both parties a fair bit more stability. I'm not sure the actual gain, though, considering the comparatively primitive economy
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The king might also want a hand in the pie, considering that coinage might lose its value before we can make a good dent into the whole thing.
Modus_Tollens said:
I will grumble about losing out on the Westerlings or whatnot, though I will concede from a political point of view. I don't think a maester, however many links, or mere miners are satisfactory though. They help but its not quite the same. But politics are politics
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I never said you couldn't do it, only that it will be unpopular.
Modus_Tollens said:
As for having a lot of kids... there are a lot of things you can do with them besides landing them, and there are lots of ways to do so that cause minimal issues
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True.
Modus_Tollens said:
The only one I really want is Braavos. That one isn't happening for a dog's age though. The Stepstones really only are in a position to be held by the Crown, the Stormlands, Dorne, and the Iron Islanders if we steel ourselves with enough alcohol first. Maybe the Redwyne but the Reach wasn't really a big player in this and has more land than it can even use
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Yeah, unless they do something very stupid, we ain't going to be taking Bravoss
Modus_Tollens said:
That is just the capacity, ignoring the politics. We'd fuck ourselves over even trying to build up things down there if we were given one or all of them. It would be an actual white elephant.

We are far away and have limited naval projection power, all of which has to go through one lonely port
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Although the Vale is more of a navel power after a few years of build up compared to the the last few decades. But we are the weakest navel power on the continent. The north does not count.
 
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Silveraith said:
The Stormlands, Riverlands, and Dorne have better Navies then us?
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More like they have more ships that they can call upon from their merchants and local Lord fleets to project power. Distance also is a key factor to consider as well. Step stones are right on dornes doorstep.
 
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