Isn't higher Telepathy required for copying the Index from Dia?
Age of Strife
Okay, SSS talked about Opportunity Costs. So here we go.
Improved Education:
Benefit - Significant process towards major long term goal, possibly unique opportunity
Opportunity Cost - Less options re: psyker powers in the adventure moving forward.
More Powers:
Benefit - Increased options to use on the road, keep ourselves alive and generally kick ass
Opportunity Cost - Uncertain whether we can gain significant progress towards Education Trait without this one-time option. (We do know that with actions we can replicate the Psyker Power gains over time). Also unclear whether this is integration of Daemon Knowledge or completely different education insight that would stack with the Daemon Knowledge (once integrated).
So basically it's a question of: Do we want more options to use in field situations in the coming months? Or do we want a guaranteed, safe advancement towards a longer term goal where the path to it is otherwise unclear?
I can see definite benefits to both, and I honestly won't be mad if More Powers wins... but I don't think it's our best option. I think it's something we can replace with basic training actions.
That's the basic decision here as well as I can summarize it, though.
Improved near/mid-term tactical options vs. guaranteed long term advancement on a more difficult goal (with no immediate benefit).
Improved Education:
Benefit - Significant process towards major long term goal, possibly unique opportunity
Opportunity Cost - Less options re: psyker powers in the adventure moving forward.
More Powers:
Benefit - Increased options to use on the road, keep ourselves alive and generally kick ass
Opportunity Cost - Uncertain whether we can gain significant progress towards Education Trait without this one-time option. (We do know that with actions we can replicate the Psyker Power gains over time). Also unclear whether this is integration of Daemon Knowledge or completely different education insight that would stack with the Daemon Knowledge (once integrated).
So basically it's a question of: Do we want more options to use in field situations in the coming months? Or do we want a guaranteed, safe advancement towards a longer term goal where the path to it is otherwise unclear?
I can see definite benefits to both, and I honestly won't be mad if More Powers wins... but I don't think it's our best option. I think it's something we can replace with basic training actions.
That's the basic decision here as well as I can summarize it, though.
Improved near/mid-term tactical options vs. guaranteed long term advancement on a more difficult goal (with no immediate benefit).
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
For what it's worth we've had actions to improve the education trait available in the past.
That was regular education, though. That was before we jumped straight to 100 years' Master Psyker (with more virtual education hanging around. We haven't been given an option to work on that, yet. How it interacts and is integrated is still unclear. How a one-time bonus like this factors in is unclear too. Is it integration of Daemon Knowledge? Is it a completely different insight?)
Actually, @Academia Nut If we take Improve Education Trait, will this cause us to integrate the unsorted Daemon Knowledge? Or will it be completely different insights and stack with those unintegrated years?
Yes, it is. Telepathy 3 (4 to be more or less completely safe), but that's something we can work on while we're on the road anyway. We can get Telepathy II at any time with an action. Definitely not worth taking it here.
- Location
- somewhere
Yes it is. That's the main reason I'm uncertain whether telepathy II or more powers is the better choice. The reason telepathy II isn't a no-brainer is action efficiency. The things SSS is talking about as well as the hope we might get a significant bonus to working on telepathy if we explicitly train it with the cube.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The problem is, we've moved for gaining additional power quite a bit in the form of increasing our various Discipline ranks, but we have no good way to use a lot of that power (especially since we invested heavily in Divination, but due to Plot a lot of our Divination has been rendered semi-worthless). We need better ways to use the power we have. An auto-hit save-or-suck that nails anyone that doesn't have >29 willpower is one example.
[X] Invest towards improved education trait
I definitely agree with that. People are, I think, underestimating how much downtime we're going to have on the quest. As far as I can tell, there's nothing to stop us taking training actions on a quest that is very likely to last years. Taking Telepathy 2 right now would be a waste of a major opportunity. More Powers and Improved Education are the more efficient options.
I do suspect that the kind of unique situation of a bonus to telepathy training from the paradox cube may apply to improved education here, depending on whether it's through integration of the Daemon's knowledge or completely novel insight due to our fate manipulation. Either way, it seems like a non-reproducible event, given that it required multiple crits, tzeentch's holy number and really abnormal warp interactions. I feel like it's the one thing on this list that we can't drum up on our own time while we're on the road. We can work on education with an action, but we can't necessarily grasp these specific insights again. This is the option that has the most obvious synergy with the themes of the update.
Basically, my thinking is this.
If this gets us 50 years of virtual insight that we otherwise could not get, or gets us 50 years of Daemon Knowledge deciphered safely, when we otherwise don't even know how to approach integrating that yet? Either of those will be well worth it. The first one is absolutely irreplaceable, and the latter is still (probably) harder to replicate than grinding powers with training actions.
If this gets us 50 years of virtual insight that we otherwise could not get, or gets us 50 years of Daemon Knowledge deciphered safely, when we otherwise don't even know how to approach integrating that yet? Either of those will be well worth it. The first one is absolutely irreplaceable, and the latter is still (probably) harder to replicate than grinding powers with training actions.
I forgot we still had the cube with us on the quest. That does narrow down options but still...
Alright I'm convinced.
[X] Invest towards improved education trait
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I don't think it will work that way.
We already have the virtual years of education needed for Grand master psyker. What this will give will be a flat numerical boost to the amount of progress towards grabbing Grand master psyker.
I don't know if it's going to be the same numerical value towards new powers or not but it may well be. I think the only thing we'd be saving is set number of actions and if i'm right and they both have the same numerical value the points are a lot more valuable to mirande currently in more powers than in progress towards the next education trait.
Where are you getting this 50 years number? It seems more logical that the actual training time would be someting more in line with gaining one or two new powers. So, 1-5 years. Unless there's something I missed?
[X] Invest towards improved education trait
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Assuming my idea about the discipline training costs stacks up correctly I think the Paradox cube is worth a flat x2 what you roll into it. Which would explain how Mirande managed to get to Divination level 2 before gaining her education trait on adulthood.
These were the two rolls made by Mirande using the Paradox cube
Rolled 27 + 50 - 4 UA + 20 Serene = 93
Worked out requirements
Must have Level 3 of a Psychic Discipline
Must roll over 120 on a Willpower check
Studying the Cube contributes towards advancing Discipline Level
Paradox Cube
Rolled 49 + 58 - 2 UA = 105
Divination I Upgraded to Divination II (+1 Diplomacy, Martial, Stewardship, Intrigue)
Assuming the cube provides x2 bonus that works out as 396 points towards the discipline level. Telepathy I needed 200 to unlock.
So i'm going to assume that the paradox cube is doubling or more the effectiveness of discipline training actions.
Also please keep in mind Mirande is unlikely to be able to put concentrated effort into discipline studying even with a good deal of down time on the train. She will likely have a lot to do even in that down time.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
[X] Invest towards improved education trait
It's a speculative number for the sake of argument. AN said that we'd get a significant chunk of progress towards the next level (which is 100 years away), but it could be anything from 20 years to 80.
For the record I would be in favor of More Powers, if
1) The education improvement was the same amount of normalized "points" as the power gain
2) It turns out when we finally get back to doing turns of "full" actions that we can safely and consistently grind our education up with that virtual knowledge
3) This most recent encounter is NOT offering novel insight into our education (that is new virtual years, stacked on top of our existing virtual years)
But I'm not sure that any of these are the case. Too many unknowns. It's still ultimately a question of certainty in near-future psyker power options vs. certainty in long-term advancement.
If @Academia Nut can provide more information on how this Education Advancement would factor in, and how action-based Education Advancement in future turns will work with Daemon knowledge, that could probably help considerably in resolving this debate.
I'm also still wondering if there's any significant linkage between our Eating a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch/Being a Diviner as our main discipline/Hitting 99 (Tzeentch-number) on the Fate Manipulation mega-crit and our gaining insight on Education this turn that would result in any kind of special bonus. Because I'm still holding out hope for that, and I think it might push the decision into more certain territory.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
@Academia Nut
I think we need to understand more of the mechanics behind education trait advancement for Mirande here to be able to make a sensible and rational informed choice.
Right now we know the mechanics behind two of the three different kind of options and I think uncertainty regarding the education trait is pushing people to vote there due to not knowing.
Clarification would be greatly appreciated.
For what it's worth we already have all the virtual years of education needed for the next level.
Assume we need 2000 points to get grand master psyker. Choosing the education trait will just put a whack of points towards that number needed.
The mechanics we've seen for every other avenue of psykerdom work in a similar fashion. I'm presuming the education trait will also work in that manner once you've breached the years of education thing.
but it's just an assumption. Getting AN's thoughts would clarify this rather quickly.
I think we need to understand more of the mechanics behind education trait advancement for Mirande here to be able to make a sensible and rational informed choice.
Right now we know the mechanics behind two of the three different kind of options and I think uncertainty regarding the education trait is pushing people to vote there due to not knowing.
Clarification would be greatly appreciated.
For what it's worth we already have all the virtual years of education needed for the next level.
Assume we need 2000 points to get grand master psyker. Choosing the education trait will just put a whack of points towards that number needed.
The mechanics we've seen for every other avenue of psykerdom work in a similar fashion. I'm presuming the education trait will also work in that manner once you've breached the years of education thing.
but it's just an assumption. Getting AN's thoughts would clarify this rather quickly.
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Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
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[X] Invest towards improved education trait
So, husbando has arrived. And I was right, it was Mad Max!
So, husbando has arrived. And I was right, it was Mad Max!
Heartily seconded.
- Location
- somewhere
I assume that was supposed to be only +50 for education (not that it seems likely to make a difference)? Unless we already gained grand master psyker somehow?
[X] Invest towards improved education trait
In this case, a Mirror Psyker is a different beast altogether. If you've read Ravenor, the child psyker is one.
"He is a psychic 'mirror', with no real psychic capabilities of his own. As well as his precognitive abilities, he is able to use the psychic powers of others in his vicinity but not for an extended period of time."
This may or may not be what we're dealing with here.
Yeah, I pushed as much as I could for Future Telling and don't regret it, but I think it's at a good place right now. If we have any long periods of city management, then it'd be good to go back to investing in it - or if it moves into a longer turn time.
In this case, a Mirror Psyker is a different beast altogether. If you've read Ravenor, the child psyker is one.
"He is a psychic 'mirror', with no real psychic capabilities of his own. As well as his precognitive abilities, he is able to use the psychic powers of others in his vicinity but not for an extended period of time."
This may or may not be what we're dealing with here.
Yeah, I pushed as much as I could for Future Telling and don't regret it, but I think it's at a good place right now. If we have any long periods of city management, then it'd be good to go back to investing in it - or if it moves into a longer turn time.